Re: [bolger] Re: Box Keels

Great to have the weight down low,but that's the bilge... where that
inevitable water WILL eventually go, flooding engine/electrical !!
Better used for tanks imho

daschultz2000 wrote:
>
> Also the box keel is a great place to put that small diesel with
> little or no shaft angle. Batteries can also be put down there, all
> improving the self-righting likelyhood of the boat.
>
> Don
>
>
Also the box keel is a great place to put that small diesel with little or no shaft angle. Batteries can also be put down there, all improving the self-righting likelyhood of the boat.

Don
Very interesting Fred,

My heritage is Scandinavian, yet a lot of us seem drawn to the Adriatic
area as an ideal environment to dream about. Mostly maybe the Med
climate? Sailing all year? That area is much like the Baltic without the
winters:-) Not to mention lower taxes and delectable cuisine and wines.

I like the Alaskan layout with the sleeping cabins at each end (each
with it's own porta-potti:) and a communal galley between, making it
great for two couples or family with two kids, or a couple with
in-laws:-) Of course a BBQ under the awning. The diesel allows for
refridgeration even if a 12v cooler. Plain white with work-boat finish.
Maybe an open slot overhead in the pilot-house for to allow the Adriatic
breezes to enter. And fresh produce readily available.

The heck with Alaska!

Nels










--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:28 PM, prairiedog2332 arvent@... wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Fred,
> >
> > Yes, I guess you forgot the word "rudder" following larger.
> >
>
> Yes, I forgot to say larger rudder. I would think a more powerful
rudder
> would be needed since the keel has no drag, and it would be harder to
turn
> that deeply immersed forefoot.
>
> I like the rig of the Alaskan Motorsailer too. Everything can be
handled
> from inside the pilothouse. It would make a good "condo" boat as you
say.
> These boxy boats have so much more usable space on less length, width,
and
> draft than conventional sailboats. Alaskan Motorsailer would work well
in
> the Adriatic. You could even put a glass plate into the bottom for
looking
> through that clear blue water.
>
> My family are German-Hungarians from Yugoslavia, and we all speak
> Serbo-Croatian. Back during the last Balkan War in the 1990s I was
thinking
> of a way to help my cousins back there. Since my father had a cousin
on the
> island of Rab, I seriously considered the idea of starting a Bolger
boat
> building business. I was really interested in Super Brick, as a
floating
> condo, and got the plans. Unfortunately, I ran into a string of bad
years
> farming and couldn't develop the funds to start anything in that line.
>
> fred s.
>
Here are writeups on two Brick variations, Flying Cloud and with a
Gaff Rig.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/files/Brick%20Variants/

Note how much ballast it takes to get FC down to her lines.

Mark
>
> I've only seen pictures of Flying Cloud and not the write up.
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:28 PM, prairiedog2332<arvent@...>wrote:

Fred,

Yes, I guess you forgot the word "rudder" following larger.


Yes, I forgot to say larger rudder. I would think  a more powerful rudder would be needed since the keel has no drag, and it would be harder to turn that deeply immersed forefoot.

I like the rig of the Alaskan Motorsailer too. Everything can be handled from inside the pilothouse. It would make a good "condo" boat as you say. These boxy boats have so much more usable space on less length, width, and draft than conventional sailboats. Alaskan Motorsailer would work well in the Adriatic. You could even put a glass plate into the bottom for looking through that clear blue water.

My family are German-Hungarians from Yugoslavia, and we all speak Serbo-Croatian. Back during the last Balkan War in the 1990s I was thinking of a way to help my cousins back there. Since my father had a cousin on the island of Rab, I seriously considered the idea of starting a Bolger boat building business. I was really interested in Super Brick, as a floating condo, and got the plans. Unfortunately, I ran into a string of bad years farming and couldn't develop the funds to start anything in that line.

fred s.

Fred,

Yes, I guess you forgot the word "rudder" following larger. (Phil added
flanges to the forward section of the keel and got some weather helm as
a result.)

You notice the rudder is very similar on the Alaskan with boarding steps
cut into it.

Very good point made by Bruce. The engine, batteries, stores etc., in
the box keel is your ballast, with the possible addition of a steel
plate on the bottom of it.

I also really like the sail plan upgrade. The full battened balance lug
main with jiffy reefing lines. This would be a very docile sail to
handle I would suggest. I can also visualize an awning over the cockpit
extending over and above the forward hatch. More or less left up when at
anchor to take care of any rainwater lying around on the deck.

I can also see this as an ideal "time-share" project for two compatible
couples, both in building and taking separate vacations or going out
together. And sharing the upkeep and expenses.

Let me know if you need a deck-hand, vineyard helper and wine taster.

http://www.croatia-map.net/

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
> Nels,
>
> Thanks for the links and the helpful observations.
>
> I've only seen pictures of Flying Cloud and not the write up. It looks
like
> an experiment that didn't get enough follow up. Phil wanting to add a
larger
> is exactly what I would expect, and his note that even when driven
hard it
> made little wave making resistance is also what I would have
predicted,
> since the box keel is a submarine body and the main hull gets shallow
> immersion.
>
> I think a problem is that the box keel is too wide for Flying Cloud's
> length. It's about a 5.8 to 1 length width ratio. I think the rules of
thumb
> for multihulls would work better: 8 to 1 minimum l/w, which is what I
drew
> up on my test exercise. Putting a center board off to one side of the
box
> keel, as Phil did for Col. Hassler is a good solution and easy to do.
Since
> the box keel is an airfoil, perhaps adjustable control surfaces like a
wing
> has to create lift could be experimented with.
>
> I really like Alaskan Motorsailer. It's what I would love to have to
get
> around the Dalmatian Islands of Croatia, if that dream ever goes
anywhere.
> (A small stone house on a hill looking down on a bay, with small
vineyard
> and olive grove and a place to anchor a boat.)
>
> fred s.
>
On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 9:07 AM, prairiedog2332<arvent@...>wrote:

Fred,

You are no doubt also aware that Phil did a test boat called Brick Flying Cloud, but other newer members may not have heard of it. He noted it made "noticable leeway close-hauled".

I really like the idea of a center cockpit except for maybe the need for remote steering. Sort of a miniature Col Hasler. Seems an off-centerboard was added to one side of the box keel for improved upwind ability with that design?


Nels,

Thanks for the links and  the helpful observations.

I've only seen pictures of Flying Cloud and not the write up. It looks like an experiment that didn't get enough follow up. Phil wanting to add a larger is exactly what I would expect, and his note that even when driven hard it made little wave making resistance is also what I would have predicted, since the box keel is a submarine body and the main hull gets shallow immersion.

I think a problem is that the box keel is too wide for Flying Cloud's length. It's about a 5.8 to 1 length width ratio. I think the rules of thumb for multihulls would work better: 8 to 1 minimum l/w, which is what I drew up on my test exercise. Putting a center board off to one side of the box keel, as Phil did for Col. Hassler is a good solution and easy to do. Since the box keel is an airfoil, perhaps adjustable control surfaces like a wing has to create lift could be experimented with.

I really like Alaskan Motorsailer. It's what I would love to have to get around the Dalmatian Islands of Croatia, if that dream ever goes anywhere. (A small stone house on a hill looking down on a bay, with small vineyard and olive grove and a place to anchor a boat.)

fred s.

Fred,

You are no doubt also aware that Phil did a test boat called Brick Flying Cloud, but other newer members may not have heard of it. He noted it made "noticable leeway close-hauled".

I really like the idea of a center cockpit except for maybe the need for remote steering. Sort of a miniature Col Hasler. Seems an off-centerboard was added to one side of the box keel for improved upwind ability with that design?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Col.%20H.%20G.%20Hasler%20%23635/

On the Alaska Motorsailer, the keel is relatively more shallow for it's size than on Flying Cloud, so the engine is generally used when close-hauled to overcome the leeway. A small diesel running at a steady low rpm burns little fuel and lasts forever, and the prop wash on the rudder improves steerage. Of course it also supplies continuous house power with a suitable alternator. Personally I don't mind the sound of a small diesel and it can be shut down when reaching or running if there is enough wind. Lovely potential for a central cockpit with wine cellar downstairs.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Alaska%20Motorsailer%20%23610/

If you want to go just with an engine and a flat bottom, then Bee was the test boat.

Nels
> After the first sailing season I can say that
> I'm really happy with my
> Seabird'86 "Blue Air".

Thank you for taking the time to tell us about your first year with
Blue Air. I think we all admire your skill and industry in getting
the boat built. I'm not quite sure why you need a better paint job
because she looked splendid in the launching photos.

I was interested to hear that she sails well in light wind. Mr.
Bolger wrote that he designed her as a motorsailer, so he clearly
assumed that most people would motor in very light wind if they were
really intent on getting somewhere. The keel is of minimal size for
upwind work in a drift.

Bolger also has written that the interior of a little cruising boat
like this needs to be custom fitted by the owner, since he can't
foresee the varied preferences of the independent-minded people who
will choose a boat like this. It would be interested to know what
adaptations you have made to the interior. I've never been quite
clear how the cabin seats (which are also important interior
framing) interact with the pipe berths.

Thanks again,

Peter
Sounds like you've put Seabird through her paces, Stefan!

Is yours the pilot-house, or smaller cabin version?

Any pictures you can post?

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hello to all,
After the first sailing season I can say that I'm really happy with my
Seabird'86 "Blue Air".
The first bigger turn this year (March) was from Germany to Netherland
along the river rhine, river ijssel to the Ijsselmeer. It was realy a
testing tour.
4 knots current and 5, sometimes 6and 7 Bft against the current where
getting very short and not seldom 1.50 m (5ft) waves, according with
container ships and tankers left and right. The weather was cold with
thunderstorms and snow. Sometimes I need the rudder + the outboard
to hold her on the rail. But there was never a serious problem. We need
5 days for the 250 km because we were tired after 6-7 hours.
Blue Air takes a lot more than we can stand. The last part of this trip
are ~20 NM on the Ijsselmeer in a force 5 with reefed
Junksail and a hard upwind course. Blue Air goes fine to the wind and
tacks easy with the reefed sail when the outboard was out of the water.
The deck was sometimes wet, the cockpit never. The cabin is what it
needs to be in those conditions: dry and cosy.
This summer I was 2 and a half week with my wife on the boat. 2 persons
can life quite comfortable, I think, and my wife too, another 2 weeks
where no problem. On this tour we had mostly light winds. Blue Air is a
little bit over canvased, so we could sail in a force 1. Most time we
were
not slower then the other sailers around. I had, and I have to learn to
handle the junk sail. Somtimes it is a trial and error story to find the
right trim.
If the trim is almost right, you havn't to touch the rudder stock. With
4 persons in the cockpit she sails not so straight. She wants to go into
the
wind. The junk sail has the advantage that I can get some more sail in
front of the mast, so I can balancing it quite well.
The Seabird isn't a racer, but she is fast (5.5 kn upwind in a force 3
with full sail up), she tacks at 90 deg. and if the wind blows up, she
goes on like a
young horse. She is very manouverable, She has a big cabin. What can I
want more. Wishes? Yes, someone who does a new and better paint job.
This week she goes out of water, first time since I have launched her in
Sept. 2003. I want to inspect the underwater sections.

Al the best and fair winds!
Stefan
On Friday 22 October 2004 11:17 am, Bruce Hallman wrote:
> Well, the Indian summer weather has ended here in 'sunny' Californina.

Amen. After 180+ days without rain the storm hit San Diego at
about 3:00 AM Sunday morning. I had tools spread out all over
and was trying to get the inside of my hull painted Sunday afternoon ...

I hollered at my son, we jumped up and drove a few blocks over
to the boat that was sitting open to the rain, flipped it over draining
out maybe fifty gallons of water. Quite a little middle of the night
adventure.

The next day my body felt like I had been beat all over with a
small cane ... the cost of being 63 I guess.

Now a week later we have regrouped and I hope to finally get
the inside of the hull painted.

Onward,

boblq
> Bruce,
> I'm surprised to see boats on the beach at Half Moon Bay. Wasn't
> even that much of a storm....
>
> Greg (on the other side of the hill in San Mateo)

I suspect that they had some very poor ground tackle and technique.

> bilge pump
> Jason

Yes, I plan on adding a 12V bilge pump, float switch, etc.,
purchased, and not yet installed. Still on my 'punch list' to
completion!
Bruce,
I'm surprised to see boats on the beach at Half Moon Bay. Wasn't
even that much of a storm....

Greg (on the other side of the hill in San Mateo)


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> Well, the Indian summer weather has ended here in 'sunny'
Californina.
>
> A storm blew through, here is a photo of the harbor where I hope to
> launch my boat [next opportunity, Oct. 30th]
>
>http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2004/1004/Oct20/Oct20.html
>
> Dumped a few inches of rain, and somehow, a gallon leaked from
> the topsides into my bilge of my Micro Navigator. It is
aggravating,
> because I cannot figure out the source of the leak. I will add some
> more epoxy and tape to the edge of the roof, which is my most
> suspicious leak candidate. [Which if the true source of the leak,
> the water passed through a crack more narrow than a hair.]
I'm with you, My Navigator wannabe is stalled. I ran home at lunch
to try and paint the boot stripe (hit 61 degrees today)....but had
to bail on the job as the leaves were swirling about in a tornadic
manner trying to get stuck in my paint. I'm litterally 8hrs from
window installation but i can't get her all painted up because of a
cool / wet fall. Finishing the inside will be easy as i can seal the
hatches and run a heater as needed but i need to get the windows in
first.

DOn't forget the camera come oct. 30!
I'm heading to Beaufort, NC(have to go there to get my numbers as
that is where i am a resident) for thanksgiving and plan to launch
then. It'll be done but i'm sure after the first sail i'll have
plenty of rigging crap to settle.

My boat is still under the shed but i'm sure my main hatch is going
to leak forward between the rails. I should have built the little
drip gaurd higher. I think the roof has a 2-3 degree slope to it but
the trailer and bobbing around on the mooring may let water get in.

Have you installed a bilge pump? Size? Debating on one big fellow or
two little guys one under each bunk. I figure with no heel it will
hold 4 inches of water before flowing around and to the other
side.....dang off center board bisects the boat :)

Jason
Well, the Indian summer weather has ended here in 'sunny' Californina.

A storm blew through, here is a photo of the harbor where I hope to
launch my boat [next opportunity, Oct. 30th]

http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2004/1004/Oct20/Oct20.html

Dumped a few inches of rain, and somehow, a gallon leaked from
the topsides into my bilge of my Micro Navigator. It is aggravating,
because I cannot figure out the source of the leak. I will add some
more epoxy and tape to the edge of the roof, which is my most
suspicious leak candidate. [Which if the true source of the leak,
the water passed through a crack more narrow than a hair.]
> Do you know the angle of col. hasler's bilge panel to top sides
> interface.......i.e. is it constant the legnth of the boat? or is it
> steeper forward?

There are basically four longitudinal panel joints in Col. Hasler.

Box keel side to bottom: 90 deg.
Box keel side to bilge side: 119 deg.
Bilge panel to hull side: 119 deg.
Hull side to cabin side: 81 1/2 deg.

But I think your question misses the mark,
hydraulically, what matters is that you have
roughly equal curvature in the panels on
both sides of a hard chine.

In other words, you want the station lines
spaced equally in the line diagram.

http://hallman.org/bolger/635/lines.gif

This generally occurs everywhere on Col. Hasler,
with the notable exception of the box keel side
to the box keel bottom from Station 12 => 20.

> Does the box keel "parallel" the hull shape ala' sea of peas theory?

Yes it does, not exactly, but pretty close.

What doesn't match close, is the box keel side to
keel bottom, aft of midships.

All I can guess here, is that PB&F chose to favor
the benifits of having the 'shoe' of the boat stand
flat upright, on a dry out berth, on a truck, etc..
Bruce-

Ive been reading everything i can find on these box keel boats and
still don't understand how they are proportioned. Thought i had it
figured out untill the brick blew my theories out of the water.

Do you know the angle of col. hasler's bilge panel to top sides
interface.......i.e. is it constant the legnth of the boat? or is it
steeper forward?

Does the box keel "parallel" the hull shape ala' sea of peas theory?
I can't make it out from the MAIB article or the model.

Thanks
Jason
Here is another article:

http://www.messingaboutinboats.com/archives/mbissuejanuary99.html

It's the second one down in the piece.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>
> Interesting to see this experiment. PCB has been using box keels
for
> a long time.
Interesting to see this experiment. PCB has been using box keels for
a long time. Quest, des. #347, which appears in the 1982 "30-odd
Boats", is a 38' steel motor vessel that carries nearly half its
displacement in a vee-bottomed box keel. The write-up spends a couple
of paras. saying why this hullform was chosen.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > This leads me to two quesitons. Is this shape going to appear more
> > and more in PCB&F designs? What is the term to use when referring
to
> > this type of boat. Is it still a sharpie or what??
> >
> > Nels
>
> I thing that design #614 was the prototype they refered to,
> but I don't know what it is called.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/614/614.gif
> This leads me to two quesitons. Is this shape going to appear more
> and more in PCB&F designs? What is the term to use when referring to
> this type of boat. Is it still a sharpie or what??
>
> Nels

I thing that design #614 was the prototype they refered to,
but I don't know what it is called.

http://hallman.org/bolger/614/614.gif
No doubt a number of fairly unusual activities take place in SF
studio apartments, but surely canning tuna would be one of the
strangest.

Howard

-- who most of last year lived in a Geneva studio apartment, with
very little counterspace. Never tried canning tuna.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> Portside has a full length 'galley' counter. That boat has about
> as much counterspace a studio apartments in San Francisco.
> Perfect for canning your tuna catch!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>
> What surprised me most, after seeing the 3D model was the
> 'pointedness' "tee shape" of the bow. Plus, the hydraulics of
> crashing into (or surfing down) a wave, with a powerful lifting
effect.

I agree Bruce, the model really shows this. Here is how PCB&F
explains: (Edited from the Susanne version:-)

"The cutwater shape allows the use of untortured sheet material ...
(and) opens the water, including rough water, with remarkably little
fuss and no tendency to root....The principle is ancient, it's used
in traditional Japanese Yamato boats, for instance, but it's
acceptance has been hindered by incomprehension of how it works and
resulting poor proportions. If the profile is not matched to the plan
view,.... such a shape will have high drag and directional
instability... seems to have almost no drag penalty... over a
perfectly free form shape, except perhaps as viewed through
conventional aesthetics!"

This leads me to two quesitons. Is this shape going to appear more
and more in PCB&F designs? What is the term to use when referring to
this type of boat. Is it still a sharpie or what??

Nels
> How is the steering system
> designed....tiller wheel?
> Jason

They specified a Hynautic hydraulic steering system.
Hynautic seems to have been taken over by SeaStar, and

http://tinyurl.com/6dluc

http://www.seastarsteering.com/PWR_STEER/power.htm?../PWR_STEER/powerF3.htm&1

points to what I believe the steering system should/would be.

It also has a manual tiller, accessible from the cockpit.
> Did your fantasy include sharing the cockpit with a living, angry
> tuna? Not snug under those circumstances. :)
> Peter

I would tow the tuna around in my Tortoise punt until dead.

<g>
> Also, the snug, well protected cockpit. I imagine cruising
> far offshore, trolling for a tuna. Then, inside, the full
> length of the box keel has walking headroom. Starboard & gimbaled,
> are a berth and a reclining, swiveling lounge chair [helm seat].
> Portside has a full length 'galley' counter. That boat has about
> as much counterspace a studio apartments in San Francisco.
> Perfect for canning your tuna catch!

Did your fantasy include sharing the cockpit with a living, angry
tuna? Not snug under those circumstances. :)

I think that crew protection was one feature which PCB&F was highly
proud.

Peter
> The boat is heavy, and sinks to the v-bottom/box keel level.
> Peter

The boat is definitely a displacement hull, the 'canoe' keel
gives it a well spread out wave making shape, maximizing hull
speed on her relatively short length.

The steel shell weighs 6 lbs per SF, about triple that
of plywood. She also has 1000 of steel plate ballast in
the sole, plus two giant 6 volt batteries.

What surprised me most, after seeing the 3D model was the
'pointedness' "tee shape" of the bow. Plus, the hydraulics of
crashing into (or surfing down) a wave, with a powerful lifting effect.

Also, the snug, well protected cockpit. I imagine cruising
far offshore, trolling for a tuna. Then, inside, the full
length of the box keel has walking headroom. Starboard & gimbaled,
are a berth and a reclining, swiveling lounge chair [helm seat].
Portside has a full length 'galley' counter. That boat has about
as much counterspace a studio apartments in San Francisco.
Perfect for canning your tuna catch!
> To me it looks like a flat-bottomed canoe with
> sponsons rather than, as I was thinking of it, a vee-bottomed hull
> with a box keel.

The boat is heavy, and sinks to the v-bottom/box keel level.

Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
> I swear i'd only add another bunk no other changes :)
> Jason

What about the turret with double machine guns? Just to let those
tankers know where you are?

Hmmm - maybe one torpedo tube as well:-)

Nels
I thought I was used to looking at plans but the photos of the model
sure surprised me. To me it looks like a flat-bottomed canoe with
sponsons rather than, as I was thinking of it, a vee-bottomed hull
with a box keel.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>http://community.webshots.com/album/203372942WjJNoW
>
> shows photos of my model of PB&F design
> Col. Hasler. 20' x 7'6"
>Jason Stancil
> Who wants to commision it for plywood construction?
I considered plywood, but the more I think about it, the
more I like the idea of 10 gauge metal, welded up.

> How much do the plans go for?
I think the original commission paid $1,500.
Plans, I don't know.

> How is the steering system
> designed....tiller wheel
She has a tiller on the rudder for steering
from the cockpit, plus a
hydraulic piston that is controlled by a
steering wheel in the cabin.

> I swear i'd only add another bunk no other changes :)
> Jason

I too have been figuring how to add a second
berth, and think that a hammock could be rigged up
somehow without too much trouble.
Looks better in 3d than on paper.
Who wants to commision it for plywood construction?
How much do the plans go for? How is the steering system
designed....tiller wheel?
I swear i'd only add another bunk no other changes :)
Jason
http://community.webshots.com/album/203372942WjJNoW

shows photos of my model of PB&F design
Col. Hasler. 20' x 7'6"

Obviously missing are the masts and the rudder,
but seeing the hull in 3D reveals a lot to me!

PBF and SA wrote that she could withstand most
anything encountered at sea, up to (perhaps) being run
over and dragged underneath the full length of a Supertanker.
<< What's a Seabird '86? >>

23' X 7' 9" X 2' 6", 1100 # ballast keel, dipping lug or gaff sloop,
pilot house or not, multi-chine, outboard auxilliary. It was designed
in the spirit of the original Seabirds of Thomas Day Fleming and
Charles Mower.

See:http://ca.geocities.com/nohnpages/Seabirdindex.html

or "Boats With an Open Mind" pages 252 - 256.

Paul
What's a Seabird '86? Obviously plywood, but length, rig, beam,
trailerable, etc.? Curious, just curious. My Chebacco seems to keep
me busy enough.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@y...> wrote:
>
> On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
> '86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months
and
> am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
> around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and
am
> a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
> mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
> appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and
sources
> of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance
for
> help with this.
>
> Paul Thober
I used marine fir on my Chebacco. Not one void or any other problem
in any of it. I glassed the outside, top and bottom, but no glass
inside or under floorboards in cockpit, instead sealed with 2-3 coats
of epoxy and high tech paint. No checking anywhere after five years
of use.

Jamie Orr

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@y...> wrote:
>
> On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
> '86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months
and
> am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
> around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and
am
> a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
> mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
> appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and
sources
> of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance
for
> help with this.
>
> Paul Thober
Here's two California plywood suppliers:

Allied Veneer:http://alliedveneer.com/index.html
Aircraft Spruce:http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/wp/plywood.html

Tom Hathaway


-----Original Message-----
From: Harry James [mailto:welshman@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 2:24 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Plywood recommendations

I second the recommendation on Edensaw, tremendous service and the
prices have always been good. I have dealt with them for over 20 years,
from as far away as Nome AK and they have always been more than fair.
Often in remote areas of AK you get less than perfect goods when
ordering out of Washington, especially a few years ago. Companies send
seconds figuring you will never return it. Edensaw is quite the
opposite, if they think that what they are sending is not perfect they
will throw in a little extra.

HJ

Ronald Fossum wrote:

>If you're looking for quality, strength, durability and value then
you're saying "I want the best material". I gather you're located in
California and I don't know any suppliers in that area, BUT... Edensaw
Woods, Ltd. -http://www.edensaw.com/is located in Port Townsend, WA
(THE wooden boatbuilding center for the Pcaific NW). They have a LARGE
selection of boatbuilding wood and plywood (to Lloyd's specs). They're
very helpful people and if you give them a call, I'm sure they can help
you - including, probably, the name and address of someone close to you
that can supply what you need. Oh, yes, in many cases they buy directly
from the manufacturer/mill.
>
>Ron Fossum
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: paulthober
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:23 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Plywood recommendations
>
>
>
> On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
> '86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months and
> am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
> around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and am
> a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
> mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
> appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and sources
> of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance
for
> help with this.
>
> Paul Thober
>
>
>
>


Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<Which version do you plan to build?>>>

Most likely the standard hull and cabin configuration with gaff rig
and jib. The pilothouse version is attractive, but I intend to do some
true blue-water sailing so the lower profile seems more appropriate.

Paul
I second the recommendation on Edensaw, tremendous service and the
prices have always been good. I have dealt with them for over 20 years,
from as far away as Nome AK and they have always been more than fair.
Often in remote areas of AK you get less than perfect goods when
ordering out of Washington, especially a few years ago. Companies send
seconds figuring you will never return it. Edensaw is quite the
opposite, if they think that what they are sending is not perfect they
will throw in a little extra.

HJ

Ronald Fossum wrote:

>If you're looking for quality, strength, durability and value then you're saying "I want the best material". I gather you're located in California and I don't know any suppliers in that area, BUT... Edensaw Woods, Ltd. -http://www.edensaw.com/is located in Port Townsend, WA (THE wooden boatbuilding center for the Pcaific NW). They have a LARGE selection of boatbuilding wood and plywood (to Lloyd's specs). They're very helpful people and if you give them a call, I'm sure they can help you - including, probably, the name and address of someone close to you that can supply what you need. Oh, yes, in many cases they buy directly from the manufacturer/mill.
>
>Ron Fossum
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: paulthober
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:23 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Plywood recommendations
>
>
>
> On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
> '86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months and
> am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
> around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and am
> a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
> mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
> appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and sources
> of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance for
> help with this.
>
> Paul Thober
>
>
>
>
Paul, I will second the recommendation re: Noahsmarine in Canada. I
bought the lower grade Meranti (maybe #6566??) and have been very
pleased. Only once or twice were there any discernible gaps between
the inner plies and these were generally on the order of 1/16"+ to
3/32" or so -- readily filled with epoxy. The 6566 is with much
thinner outer plies but I must admit that only twice did I sand
through them, and then I covered that with xynole cloth and epoxy.

Many people advise against fir plywood because of checking. You can
figure out for yourself if this would be a problem with your building
plans.

The Eden, west coast, option was as well viable for me, but shipping
costs knocked it out since I live on the east coast.

Happy sawing, and, as you'll find out quickly...at the price of the
stuff you'll measure 4 times before cutting!


--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@y...> wrote:
>
> On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
> '86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months
and
> am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
> around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and
am
> a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
> mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
> appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and
sources
> of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance
for
> help with this.
>
> Paul Thober
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "paulthober" <paulthober@y...> wrote:
This time
> around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and
am
> a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
> mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
> appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and
sources
> of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance
for
> help with this.
>
> Paul Thober

Hi Paul,

Since you plan to use marine grade, here is a good online source of
information:

http://www.noahsmarine.com/Canada/Plywoods-can/plywoods-can.html

The 1088 Merranti would be my choice, based on research and not
personal use. Can't even get it where I live. (Those prices are in
$Cdn and do not include shipping.)

I plan to use crezon in my next project, and I posted my most recent
price quotes a week or two ago. My only other choice was marine grade
fir and the crezon looked superior for about 25% less in cost.

A major decision, as you probably know - is whether or not you plan
to glass the exterior - and whether or not it will be lying at a
marina. Since I plan to glass and trailer, then I am not that
worried if the plywood is 100% free of voids. I think there may be
the occasional small void in crezon but was unable to see any on the
edges. Also I was impressed at the even thickness of the cores. Just
like in the illustrations at the above site. But fewer layers.

My intuition tells me that to cut the thin veneers that are in the
Merranti you need really good sound wood to start with. Otherwise it
won't hold together. Nine layers in 1/2 inch plywood is impressive!
My 3/8" crezone is five layers, but they are all the same thickness.

I would avoid plywood with thick cores, especially if they are a
different color or texture.

The final decision I think should be made based on the overall
quality of what you want the final result to be. And this starts with
the plywood.

I would also suggest that you purchase what you need asap as the
prices are going up all the time.

Cheers, Nels
If you are going to sheath the whole hull you could get away with
cheap(relative) marine fir. I used this on my center board and skeg
and other random parts that got sheathed in dynel.

I used the marine fir stuff as i ran out of the 2 sided MDO i
ordered. I think the MDO is ideal if you are only glassing the
joints as it keeps the ply from checking and is already smoother
than you can sand it wiithout the patience of a zen master.
If you shop around you can find some good prices on the crezon or
signal grades.

Jason
If you're looking for quality, strength, durability and value then you're saying "I want the best material". I gather you're located in California and I don't know any suppliers in that area, BUT... Edensaw Woods, Ltd. -http://www.edensaw.com/is located in Port Townsend, WA (THE wooden boatbuilding center for the Pcaific NW). They have a LARGE selection of boatbuilding wood and plywood (to Lloyd's specs). They're very helpful people and if you give them a call, I'm sure they can help you - including, probably, the name and address of someone close to you that can supply what you need. Oh, yes, in many cases they buy directly from the manufacturer/mill.

Ron Fossum

----- Original Message -----
From: paulthober
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 9:23 AM
Subject: [bolger] Plywood recommendations



On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
'86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months and
am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and am
a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and sources
of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance for
help with this.

Paul Thober





Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul Thober:
> I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird '86

Which version do you plan to build?

--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
On another subject: I just ordered plans from Mr Bolger for Seabird
'86 and hope to get started on construction in a couple of months and
am looking for recommendations as to what to build it of. This time
around I want to use marine plywood (no more Home Depot boats) and am
a bit confused as to the relative merits of what is available. I am
mostly concerned with strength, durability, quality and value -
appearance counts for nothing with me. Personnel opinions and sources
of objective information is what I seek. Thanks so much in advance for
help with this.

Paul Thober