Re: [bolger] Re: design ideas
Riverboat paddlewheel steamers used rudders to steer,
especially the stern wheelers. There were conventional
rudders, but also "monkey" rudders placed ahead of the
wheel.
My idea of using differtial steering was taken from
how tracked vehicles operate. It may be too complex
for the simple boat I have in mind.
--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
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especially the stern wheelers. There were conventional
rudders, but also "monkey" rudders placed ahead of the
wheel.
My idea of using differtial steering was taken from
how tracked vehicles operate. It may be too complex
for the simple boat I have in mind.
--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> You're not the only one, Zack.
>
> Something I've never understood about paddlewheels
> is how to work out
> the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of
> the paddlewheel,
> have to move backwards faster than the speed of the
> water moving past
> the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And
> what is the rule
> of thumb that determines the under-water area of the
> paddle blades?
>
> Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s)
> would have to turn
> a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.
>
> Getting back to Bolger: The Folding Schooner shows,
> in the Toy
> Riverboat chapter, a 20'5" x 8' sidewheeler, styled
> like an old
> Mississippi sternwheeler. The design uses a 5 hp
> diesel with 2:1
> reduction, a diff and half-shafts from a VW Rabbit
> (I think Bolger
> owned one at the time), with a double-reduction
> system of belts and
> cogged wheels to drive the paddles.
>
> I don't think the design uses the steering system,
> you propose, Zac.
> This is how tracked vehicles steer, isn't it?
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Zack Tiger
> <zackalicious@y...> wrote:
> > I have been building rather a large number of
> boats
> > recently in my "cerebral boatyard".
>
> > As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was
> a
> > diesel powered side-wheeler!
>
>
>
>
>
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Hi Jeff, Howard.
Even more serious for the ocean going paddlewheeler,
when steaming at ninety to 180 degrees off the wind,
is the tendency for waves on the windward side to
provide a lifting effect or pressure on the inside of
the paddlebox,causing the ship to capsize. This is how
Portland met her death.
Feathering paddlewheels accomodate diferent paddle
pressures and depths, but are complex. I am planning
for very calm, interior waters,so straight,radial
paddles should be okay. Besides, that little 9.9hp
concealed in a well aft will help with docking and
assist in getting inshore quick in the faceof
worsening weather.
--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
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Even more serious for the ocean going paddlewheeler,
when steaming at ninety to 180 degrees off the wind,
is the tendency for waves on the windward side to
provide a lifting effect or pressure on the inside of
the paddlebox,causing the ship to capsize. This is how
Portland met her death.
Feathering paddlewheels accomodate diferent paddle
pressures and depths, but are complex. I am planning
for very calm, interior waters,so straight,radial
paddles should be okay. Besides, that little 9.9hp
concealed in a well aft will help with docking and
assist in getting inshore quick in the faceof
worsening weather.
--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
>__________________________________
> Thanks for that, Jeff. I'll have a look at that
> site. Maybe it will
> lead me to an answer to questions as to: 1) how
> deeply do the blades
> need to be immersed and 2) whether they should be
> mounted radially,
> or tilted slightly. Radial mounting seems to be
> almost universal.
>
> Recently I saw an interesting TV program about early
> ocean-going
> paddlesteamers. I was aware of the problem of
> varying blade immersion
> as waves move along along the hull or as
> displacement varies, but
> hadn't considered that there is a steering problem
> when there are
> transverse waves, which cause alternate paddles to
> push harder. I.K.
> Brunel solution was to use fore-and-aft sails to
> limit the boat's
> roll and thus make paddle immersion more constant.
>
> No wonder the screw propellor quickly became almost
> universal, except
> for a few cases like the one you describe, Jeff, or
> for passenger
> boats on calm lakes.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff"
> <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
> >
> > Here's a good site to start with
>http://gemort.wirefire.com/contents.htm
>
>
>
>
>
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Typical blade depth on paddle wheels is to have the top of the paddle about 1 or 2 inches below the water line at rest. There are no proof in racing or pushing contest that the herringbone designs are better than just straight paddles so I would think going straight would be easier to install and maintain.
Propellers are more efficient since they don't have to compress water on the front side and lift water on the backside of the wheel. Even with the advent of complicated tilting mechanisms that would keep the paddle at 90 degrees to the water the propeller was still more efficient.
Your right on all accounts for the side wheelers. Any quartering waves made the boat yaw around with steering problems. Stern wheels would lift their wheels clear of the water as they went over swells which was just as bad. The only argument for paddle boats today are nastolgia.
I'd enjoy owning one just for the wow and fun factor.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Propellers are more efficient since they don't have to compress water on the front side and lift water on the backside of the wheel. Even with the advent of complicated tilting mechanisms that would keep the paddle at 90 degrees to the water the propeller was still more efficient.
Your right on all accounts for the side wheelers. Any quartering waves made the boat yaw around with steering problems. Stern wheels would lift their wheels clear of the water as they went over swells which was just as bad. The only argument for paddle boats today are nastolgia.
I'd enjoy owning one just for the wow and fun factor.
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Build it and they will come! (for a steak, so will I)
Paul
Paul
Thanks for that, Jeff. I'll have a look at that site. Maybe it will
lead me to an answer to questions as to: 1) how deeply do the blades
need to be immersed and 2) whether they should be mounted radially,
or tilted slightly. Radial mounting seems to be almost universal.
Recently I saw an interesting TV program about early ocean-going
paddlesteamers. I was aware of the problem of varying blade immersion
as waves move along along the hull or as displacement varies, but
hadn't considered that there is a steering problem when there are
transverse waves, which cause alternate paddles to push harder. I.K.
Brunel solution was to use fore-and-aft sails to limit the boat's
roll and thus make paddle immersion more constant.
No wonder the screw propellor quickly became almost universal, except
for a few cases like the one you describe, Jeff, or for passenger
boats on calm lakes.
Howard
lead me to an answer to questions as to: 1) how deeply do the blades
need to be immersed and 2) whether they should be mounted radially,
or tilted slightly. Radial mounting seems to be almost universal.
Recently I saw an interesting TV program about early ocean-going
paddlesteamers. I was aware of the problem of varying blade immersion
as waves move along along the hull or as displacement varies, but
hadn't considered that there is a steering problem when there are
transverse waves, which cause alternate paddles to push harder. I.K.
Brunel solution was to use fore-and-aft sails to limit the boat's
roll and thus make paddle immersion more constant.
No wonder the screw propellor quickly became almost universal, except
for a few cases like the one you describe, Jeff, or for passenger
boats on calm lakes.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <boatbuilding@g...> wrote:
>
> Here's a good site to start with
http://gemort.wirefire.com/contents.htm
Hmm, paddlewheelers. Just to add to the mischief, I'll mention that the
rusty yard tractor out in the shed has a 12 horse B&S twin, and a belt
coupled six speed transaxle. Noisy, aircooled but cheap. Extension shafts
would drive side wheels & the gears might ease paddlewheel design [and
extend the useable speed range].
For a while I toyed with locking the differential in the transaxle and
building a sternwheeler shantyboat. The annoying exhaust noise could be
pushed up a riverboat style stack and the shaft which wasn't coupled to the
drive could turn a squirrel cage to force vent air through the
sound-deadening engine enclosure.
cheers
Derek
rusty yard tractor out in the shed has a 12 horse B&S twin, and a belt
coupled six speed transaxle. Noisy, aircooled but cheap. Extension shafts
would drive side wheels & the gears might ease paddlewheel design [and
extend the useable speed range].
For a while I toyed with locking the differential in the transaxle and
building a sternwheeler shantyboat. The annoying exhaust noise could be
pushed up a riverboat style stack and the shaft which wasn't coupled to the
drive could turn a squirrel cage to force vent air through the
sound-deadening engine enclosure.
cheers
Derek
>Something I've never understood about paddlewheels is how to work outI've done a lot of research on this recently and here's what I've found out on paddlewheels.
>the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of the paddlewheel,
>have to move backwards faster than the speed of the water moving past
>the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And what is the rule
>of thumb that determines the under-water area of the paddle blades?
>
>Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s) would have to turn
>a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.
There is no set rule as to RPM but most stern wheels rotate anywhere from 40 to 100 RPM with 60 - 65 being the most common RPM. Unless you have a specially built wheel like Bolger designs on his Fast Sternwheeler you get a lot of foam and air injected going faster than 100 RPM causing very low efficiency.
You should figure at least 30% slip and probably closer to 50%. In a rough estimate you can figure the required RPM by the wheel diameter and intended speed. So if you intend to build your boat to hit 10 MPH using a 6 foot diameter wheel you first get the circumference of the wheel which is 18.84 feet. To go ten miles per hour you need to cover (5280 feet X 10 miles ) divided by 60 minutes or 880 feet per minute. Since the paddle is 18.84 feet around you need about 47 RPM then allow for 30% slip, you'd need about 60 RPM on the wheel. Of course the thrust is based on power and paddles, this is just the speed you need on the wheel to get to 10 MPH.
The rule of thumb is one paddle for every 1 foot of diameter plus 2. On a 6 foot tall wheel, that's 8 paddles.
The paddle size is somewhat guess work based on length, width, depth, and HP. One rule that is floating around the WWW is to divide your HP by the feet in width of the paddle wheel to get the inches of paddle width PLUS 2 inches. If the wheel is 5 feet wide using a 30HP motor you get an 8" paddle. But, 1 or 2 inches make a big difference in how well the engine can handle the wheel and how efficient the wheel is to the power, oh, and changing RPM will affect things as well.
Here's a good site to start withhttp://gemort.wirefire.com/contents.htm
Jeff
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You're not the only one, Zack.
Something I've never understood about paddlewheels is how to work out
the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of the paddlewheel,
have to move backwards faster than the speed of the water moving past
the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And what is the rule
of thumb that determines the under-water area of the paddle blades?
Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s) would have to turn
a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.
Getting back to Bolger: The Folding Schooner shows, in the Toy
Riverboat chapter, a 20'5" x 8' sidewheeler, styled like an old
Mississippi sternwheeler. The design uses a 5 hp diesel with 2:1
reduction, a diff and half-shafts from a VW Rabbit (I think Bolger
owned one at the time), with a double-reduction system of belts and
cogged wheels to drive the paddles.
I don't think the design uses the steering system, you propose, Zac.
This is how tracked vehicles steer, isn't it?
Howard
Something I've never understood about paddlewheels is how to work out
the gearing. Obviously the paddles, at the bottom of the paddlewheel,
have to move backwards faster than the speed of the water moving past
the hull; but how much faster? Does anyone know? And what is the rule
of thumb that determines the under-water area of the paddle blades?
Whatever the required speed is, the paddleshaft(s) would have to turn
a lot slower than the half-shafts of a road-vehicle.
Getting back to Bolger: The Folding Schooner shows, in the Toy
Riverboat chapter, a 20'5" x 8' sidewheeler, styled like an old
Mississippi sternwheeler. The design uses a 5 hp diesel with 2:1
reduction, a diff and half-shafts from a VW Rabbit (I think Bolger
owned one at the time), with a double-reduction system of belts and
cogged wheels to drive the paddles.
I don't think the design uses the steering system, you propose, Zac.
This is how tracked vehicles steer, isn't it?
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Zack Tiger <zackalicious@y...> wrote:
> I have been building rather a large number of boats
> recently in my "cerebral boatyard".
> As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
> diesel powered side-wheeler!
Yeee- Homer!!!!!!!!-
Zack Tiger <zackalicious@...> wrote:I have been building rather a large number of boats
recently in my "cerebral boatyard". Most of these are
designed and built only "cerebrally", but some get put
down on paper and get fleshed out and detailed.
While i was at work yesterday, I saw something that
inspired yet another deswign. I work at a nuclear
power plant, and we had a contractor in to harvest
weeds from the intake channel (which supplies large
volumes of cooling water to the condensers).
This rig was about 25' long, and was essentially a
steel scow with a chute at the front to scoop and cut
weeds, and a conveyor belt to move them to a storage
bin in the stern. Pretty tame stuff....except for one
thing....
As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
diesel powered side-wheeler! It has a Detroit Deisel
four cylinder engine (either a 4-53 or 4-71) coupled
via a gearbox (Allison automatic) to a modified rear
axle. This whole rig could be lifted from an old
school bus intact! My mind pictured a shantyboat form,
like Shanteuse or Harmonica, with open fretted side
paddle wheel boxes, her hull all in white with red or
dark green trim, a wire-stayed black smokestack made
from stovepipe, with a crown cap and "foghorn"
whistle. A small cabin aft, and canvas surrey top
forward,similar to Paul Esterle's "Winton M. Green",
draped in "icicle' Christmas lights (powered by the
battery mounted inverter), she would be a dream slowly
chugging up the lake at sunset, while the crew and
passengers sat on lawn chairs, watching the steaks
cook on the small hibachi, glasses of cold something
in hand (can you TASTE it Bruce?)
Perhaps instead of the school bus power unit, I could
revamp the old VW rabbit deisel from the houseboat
days..hmmmmm, it has a transverse mount with two
halfshafts.......differential braking could provide
steering.....oh god, here we go! I can see the wife
shivering already! Yet another crazy project!
Offered for your comments and ideas...........
__________________________________
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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Zack Tiger <zackalicious@...> wrote:I have been building rather a large number of boats
recently in my "cerebral boatyard". Most of these are
designed and built only "cerebrally", but some get put
down on paper and get fleshed out and detailed.
While i was at work yesterday, I saw something that
inspired yet another deswign. I work at a nuclear
power plant, and we had a contractor in to harvest
weeds from the intake channel (which supplies large
volumes of cooling water to the condensers).
This rig was about 25' long, and was essentially a
steel scow with a chute at the front to scoop and cut
weeds, and a conveyor belt to move them to a storage
bin in the stern. Pretty tame stuff....except for one
thing....
As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
diesel powered side-wheeler! It has a Detroit Deisel
four cylinder engine (either a 4-53 or 4-71) coupled
via a gearbox (Allison automatic) to a modified rear
axle. This whole rig could be lifted from an old
school bus intact! My mind pictured a shantyboat form,
like Shanteuse or Harmonica, with open fretted side
paddle wheel boxes, her hull all in white with red or
dark green trim, a wire-stayed black smokestack made
from stovepipe, with a crown cap and "foghorn"
whistle. A small cabin aft, and canvas surrey top
forward,similar to Paul Esterle's "Winton M. Green",
draped in "icicle' Christmas lights (powered by the
battery mounted inverter), she would be a dream slowly
chugging up the lake at sunset, while the crew and
passengers sat on lawn chairs, watching the steaks
cook on the small hibachi, glasses of cold something
in hand (can you TASTE it Bruce?)
Perhaps instead of the school bus power unit, I could
revamp the old VW rabbit deisel from the houseboat
days..hmmmmm, it has a transverse mount with two
halfshafts.......differential braking could provide
steering.....oh god, here we go! I can see the wife
shivering already! Yet another crazy project!
Offered for your comments and ideas...........
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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---------------------------------
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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been building rather a large number of boats
recently in my "cerebral boatyard". Most of these are
designed and built only "cerebrally", but some get put
down on paper and get fleshed out and detailed.
While i was at work yesterday, I saw something that
inspired yet another deswign. I work at a nuclear
power plant, and we had a contractor in to harvest
weeds from the intake channel (which supplies large
volumes of cooling water to the condensers).
This rig was about 25' long, and was essentially a
steel scow with a chute at the front to scoop and cut
weeds, and a conveyor belt to move them to a storage
bin in the stern. Pretty tame stuff....except for one
thing....
As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
diesel powered side-wheeler! It has a Detroit Deisel
four cylinder engine (either a 4-53 or 4-71) coupled
via a gearbox (Allison automatic) to a modified rear
axle. This whole rig could be lifted from an old
school bus intact! My mind pictured a shantyboat form,
like Shanteuse or Harmonica, with open fretted side
paddle wheel boxes, her hull all in white with red or
dark green trim, a wire-stayed black smokestack made
from stovepipe, with a crown cap and "foghorn"
whistle. A small cabin aft, and canvas surrey top
forward,similar to Paul Esterle's "Winton M. Green",
draped in "icicle' Christmas lights (powered by the
battery mounted inverter), she would be a dream slowly
chugging up the lake at sunset, while the crew and
passengers sat on lawn chairs, watching the steaks
cook on the small hibachi, glasses of cold something
in hand (can you TASTE it Bruce?)
Perhaps instead of the school bus power unit, I could
revamp the old VW rabbit deisel from the houseboat
days..hmmmmm, it has a transverse mount with two
halfshafts.......differential braking could provide
steering.....oh god, here we go! I can see the wife
shivering already! Yet another crazy project!
Offered for your comments and ideas...........
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
recently in my "cerebral boatyard". Most of these are
designed and built only "cerebrally", but some get put
down on paper and get fleshed out and detailed.
While i was at work yesterday, I saw something that
inspired yet another deswign. I work at a nuclear
power plant, and we had a contractor in to harvest
weeds from the intake channel (which supplies large
volumes of cooling water to the condensers).
This rig was about 25' long, and was essentially a
steel scow with a chute at the front to scoop and cut
weeds, and a conveyor belt to move them to a storage
bin in the stern. Pretty tame stuff....except for one
thing....
As I watched this rig work, I noticed that it was a
diesel powered side-wheeler! It has a Detroit Deisel
four cylinder engine (either a 4-53 or 4-71) coupled
via a gearbox (Allison automatic) to a modified rear
axle. This whole rig could be lifted from an old
school bus intact! My mind pictured a shantyboat form,
like Shanteuse or Harmonica, with open fretted side
paddle wheel boxes, her hull all in white with red or
dark green trim, a wire-stayed black smokestack made
from stovepipe, with a crown cap and "foghorn"
whistle. A small cabin aft, and canvas surrey top
forward,similar to Paul Esterle's "Winton M. Green",
draped in "icicle' Christmas lights (powered by the
battery mounted inverter), she would be a dream slowly
chugging up the lake at sunset, while the crew and
passengers sat on lawn chairs, watching the steaks
cook on the small hibachi, glasses of cold something
in hand (can you TASTE it Bruce?)
Perhaps instead of the school bus power unit, I could
revamp the old VW rabbit deisel from the houseboat
days..hmmmmm, it has a transverse mount with two
halfshafts.......differential braking could provide
steering.....oh god, here we go! I can see the wife
shivering already! Yet another crazy project!
Offered for your comments and ideas...........
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com