Re: Payson & PB & F
Assuming that Payson's book just reproduces the original plan at a
reduced scale, there are no dimensions given on the Gypsy plan that
would show a builder how long the legs should be. Nor is there a
waterline or baseline shown on the drawings of the individual frames.
So maybe this is the exception that proves the rule.
There is a longitutidal section, with the waterline and the frames
drawn in. I realize now this would allow the builder to work out
where to place the frames on a strongback, by measuring and scaling
up. With the original plans scaled at 1-1/2" to the foot, there would
not be much potential for measurement error. I guess a first-time
builder would be better off using Payson's building guide like a
cookbook.
(The plans for Diablo, in the same book, show legs on two of its
three frames. The baseline would be taken as the bottom of the boat,
which is parallel with the waterline).
The first post in this thread was talking about the Bobcat; maybe its
plans show a baseline or waterline on the frame drawings.
So perhaps we can agree to disagree as to whether it would be easier
to mount each frame on braced legs, or mount them all on a
strongback. Both methods require the builder to know how high the
frames should be. The strongback method also requires the builder to
know how far apart they should be, measured along the centreline.
Howard
reduced scale, there are no dimensions given on the Gypsy plan that
would show a builder how long the legs should be. Nor is there a
waterline or baseline shown on the drawings of the individual frames.
So maybe this is the exception that proves the rule.
There is a longitutidal section, with the waterline and the frames
drawn in. I realize now this would allow the builder to work out
where to place the frames on a strongback, by measuring and scaling
up. With the original plans scaled at 1-1/2" to the foot, there would
not be much potential for measurement error. I guess a first-time
builder would be better off using Payson's building guide like a
cookbook.
(The plans for Diablo, in the same book, show legs on two of its
three frames. The baseline would be taken as the bottom of the boat,
which is parallel with the waterline).
The first post in this thread was talking about the Bobcat; maybe its
plans show a baseline or waterline on the frame drawings.
So perhaps we can agree to disagree as to whether it would be easier
to mount each frame on braced legs, or mount them all on a
strongback. Both methods require the builder to know how high the
frames should be. The strongback method also requires the builder to
know how far apart they should be, measured along the centreline.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
>
> I've got a pile of plans from Mr Bolger. All of them have a baseline
> and waterline. The waterline or consistent offset is marked on the
> legs or bulkheads as well as the centerline. This is the reference
for
> aligning everything on the strongback. There's more but that's it
> generally. If you use Mr Paysons method and angles as you propose it
> would still be necessary to locate the waterline level.
I've got a pile of plans from Mr Bolger. All of them have a baseline
and waterline. The waterline or consistent offset is marked on the
legs or bulkheads as well as the centerline. This is the reference for
aligning everything on the strongback. There's more but that's it
generally. If you use Mr Paysons method and angles as you propose it
would still be necessary to locate the waterline level.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
and waterline. The waterline or consistent offset is marked on the
legs or bulkheads as well as the centerline. This is the reference for
aligning everything on the strongback. There's more but that's it
generally. If you use Mr Paysons method and angles as you propose it
would still be necessary to locate the waterline level.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
>
> Yes. Looking at the pictures on p. 43 of Payson's "Build the New
> Instant Boats" I can see the triangular pieces of ply on the legs
> holding two of the frames upright. (The chapter deals with building a
> Gypsy). The same page also shows him inserting frame #9 into the
> assembly. This is where I think extra legs would help. It certainly
> wouldn't be easy for one person to fix that frame in position while
> making sure it was correctly aligned in three dimensions on both
> sides of the hull.
>
> But I can see a problem with my idea in relation to this design (and
> possibly others where the sides are not vertical): how would you work
> out at what height the frames should be attached to the legs?
>
> Using a strongback is supposed to be the proper way to build a small
> boat. Every now and then we see a post from someone who finds his s+g
> boat is crooked -- too late, after the resin has hardened. But for
> Gypsy at least, you wouldn't be able to mount all the frames in a
> fixed position on the strongback, as there are no measurements to
> show where along the strongback the frames should be placed. Nor are
> there measurements showing how high the frames should be mounted.
>
> You are stuck with building it Payson's way or using the standard
> stitch-and-glue technique, which is what I'd do.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
> >
> > This is essentially the method Mr Payson uses. Legs are attached to
> > the two main bulkheads and are matched to the side panels. The
> problem
> > is that they move around. Attaching the bulkheads/legs assembly to a
> > simple strongback keeps everything in place quite nicely.
Yes. Looking at the pictures on p. 43 of Payson's "Build the New
Instant Boats" I can see the triangular pieces of ply on the legs
holding two of the frames upright. (The chapter deals with building a
Gypsy). The same page also shows him inserting frame #9 into the
assembly. This is where I think extra legs would help. It certainly
wouldn't be easy for one person to fix that frame in position while
making sure it was correctly aligned in three dimensions on both
sides of the hull.
But I can see a problem with my idea in relation to this design (and
possibly others where the sides are not vertical): how would you work
out at what height the frames should be attached to the legs?
Using a strongback is supposed to be the proper way to build a small
boat. Every now and then we see a post from someone who finds his s+g
boat is crooked -- too late, after the resin has hardened. But for
Gypsy at least, you wouldn't be able to mount all the frames in a
fixed position on the strongback, as there are no measurements to
show where along the strongback the frames should be placed. Nor are
there measurements showing how high the frames should be mounted.
You are stuck with building it Payson's way or using the standard
stitch-and-glue technique, which is what I'd do.
Howard
Instant Boats" I can see the triangular pieces of ply on the legs
holding two of the frames upright. (The chapter deals with building a
Gypsy). The same page also shows him inserting frame #9 into the
assembly. This is where I think extra legs would help. It certainly
wouldn't be easy for one person to fix that frame in position while
making sure it was correctly aligned in three dimensions on both
sides of the hull.
But I can see a problem with my idea in relation to this design (and
possibly others where the sides are not vertical): how would you work
out at what height the frames should be attached to the legs?
Using a strongback is supposed to be the proper way to build a small
boat. Every now and then we see a post from someone who finds his s+g
boat is crooked -- too late, after the resin has hardened. But for
Gypsy at least, you wouldn't be able to mount all the frames in a
fixed position on the strongback, as there are no measurements to
show where along the strongback the frames should be placed. Nor are
there measurements showing how high the frames should be mounted.
You are stuck with building it Payson's way or using the standard
stitch-and-glue technique, which is what I'd do.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
>
> This is essentially the method Mr Payson uses. Legs are attached to
> the two main bulkheads and are matched to the side panels. The
problem
> is that they move around. Attaching the bulkheads/legs assembly to a
> simple strongback keeps everything in place quite nicely.
This is essentially the method Mr Payson uses. Legs are attached to
the two main bulkheads and are matched to the side panels. The problem
is that they move around. Attaching the bulkheads/legs assembly to a
simple strongback keeps everything in place quite nicely. I believe
the frames E and B are about 6' maybe 7' apart. A strong back that
length with 2x6 longitudinals, about as simple as it gets, will hold
everything together. The only caveat is make sure the strongback is
parallel to the water line or base line. If you mark the bootstripe
while the boat is upside down you must have the strongback level. With
my latest project I rented a laser level to mark the bootstripe and
that beat out the usual methods.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
the two main bulkheads and are matched to the side panels. The problem
is that they move around. Attaching the bulkheads/legs assembly to a
simple strongback keeps everything in place quite nicely. I believe
the frames E and B are about 6' maybe 7' apart. A strong back that
length with 2x6 longitudinals, about as simple as it gets, will hold
everything together. The only caveat is make sure the strongback is
parallel to the water line or base line. If you mark the bootstripe
while the boat is upside down you must have the strongback level. With
my latest project I rented a laser level to mark the bootstripe and
that beat out the usual methods.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
>
> I've built two stitch and glue boats, but right way up, not upside
> down as Payson does it. So the following is an untried idea and will
> only work on a flat level floor.
>
> Attach two legs to each frame (nails or bolts but no glue). Make each
> one long enough so it will just touch the floor when the frame is in
> its correct position (upside down) ready to receive the ply side
> panels. For each leg, get two large pressed-steel right-angle
> shelving brackets (with arms about a foot long). Use bolts through
> the screw-holes in the brackets to attach them back-to-back on the
> ends of the legs. The frames will then stand upright and can be
> shuffled around to match up with the marks on the plywood side panels.
>
> Alternatively, you could use pieces of plywood tacked onto the legs.
>
> Just an idea that might be a useful substitute for that extra pair of
> hands and easier than a proper strongback.
> Howard
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
>
> >Although Mr Payson does not use a strongback
> > when assembling the hull I would recommend that the frames shown
> with
> > legs be attached to a simple strongback. It is like having extra
> > hands.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
wrote:
>
> I've built two stitch and glue boats, but right way up, not upside
> down as Payson does it. So the following is an untried idea and will
> only work on a flat level floor.
>
> Attach two legs to each frame (nails or bolts but no glue). Make each
> one long enough so it will just touch the floor when the frame is in
> its correct position (upside down) ready to receive the ply side
> panels. For each leg, get two large pressed-steel right-angle
> shelving brackets (with arms about a foot long). Use bolts through
> the screw-holes in the brackets to attach them back-to-back on the
> ends of the legs. The frames will then stand upright and can be
> shuffled around to match up with the marks on the plywood side panels.
>
> Alternatively, you could use pieces of plywood tacked onto the legs.
>
> Just an idea that might be a useful substitute for that extra pair of
> hands and easier than a proper strongback.
>
> Howard
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
>
> >Although Mr Payson does not use a strongback
> > when assembling the hull I would recommend that the frames shown
> with
> > legs be attached to a simple strongback. It is like having extra
> > hands.
I've built two stitch and glue boats, but right way up, not upside
down as Payson does it. So the following is an untried idea and will
only work on a flat level floor.
Attach two legs to each frame (nails or bolts but no glue). Make each
one long enough so it will just touch the floor when the frame is in
its correct position (upside down) ready to receive the ply side
panels. For each leg, get two large pressed-steel right-angle
shelving brackets (with arms about a foot long). Use bolts through
the screw-holes in the brackets to attach them back-to-back on the
ends of the legs. The frames will then stand upright and can be
shuffled around to match up with the marks on the plywood side panels.
Alternatively, you could use pieces of plywood tacked onto the legs.
Just an idea that might be a useful substitute for that extra pair of
hands and easier than a proper strongback.
Howard
down as Payson does it. So the following is an untried idea and will
only work on a flat level floor.
Attach two legs to each frame (nails or bolts but no glue). Make each
one long enough so it will just touch the floor when the frame is in
its correct position (upside down) ready to receive the ply side
panels. For each leg, get two large pressed-steel right-angle
shelving brackets (with arms about a foot long). Use bolts through
the screw-holes in the brackets to attach them back-to-back on the
ends of the legs. The frames will then stand upright and can be
shuffled around to match up with the marks on the plywood side panels.
Alternatively, you could use pieces of plywood tacked onto the legs.
Just an idea that might be a useful substitute for that extra pair of
hands and easier than a proper strongback.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, cha62759@t... wrote:
>Although Mr Payson does not use a strongback
> when assembling the hull I would recommend that the frames shown
with
> legs be attached to a simple strongback. It is like having extra
> hands.
Yes, but not a lot.
Bob Chamberland
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "JIm Dix" <jdix6@s...> wrote:
>
> Ok,snip
> Is there anything in the book that I don't have already?
> Great picture!
> Jim
>
--Hi Jim, I bought the book and plans from Mr Payson. There were few
questions that were not answered in the book or from studying the plans.
The book is essential, the plans are not but good to have anyway. The
book has more information than the two articles in SMJ. A problem was
finding a source for the specified hardware which is available but not
under the name specified. Although Mr Payson does not use a strongback
when assembling the hull I would recommend that the frames shown with
legs be attached to a simple strongback. It is like having extra
hands. Nothing was particularly difficult.
Bob Chamberland
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "JIm Dix" <jdix6@s...> wrote:
questions that were not answered in the book or from studying the plans.
The book is essential, the plans are not but good to have anyway. The
book has more information than the two articles in SMJ. A problem was
finding a source for the specified hardware which is available but not
under the name specified. Although Mr Payson does not use a strongback
when assembling the hull I would recommend that the frames shown with
legs be attached to a simple strongback. It is like having extra
hands. Nothing was particularly difficult.
Bob Chamberland
- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "JIm Dix" <jdix6@s...> wrote:
>
> I'm looking to buy a set of plans for the Bob Cat aka Tiny Cat. PB &
> F has plans and so does Payson. Somewhere I read that PB & F won't
> give help if you buy the plans from Payson, (makes sense to me).
> Payson obviously has a lot of helpful stuff besides the plans.
> What's the best way, plans from PB & F, rest from Payson?
> JIm
Ok, I've been wondering about this one too.
I have most of the SBJ issues including the ones with the original
cartoon by Bolger and the two construction articals by Payson, heck,
that's how this all got started!
Is there anything in the book that I don't have already?
Great picture!
Jim
I have most of the SBJ issues including the ones with the original
cartoon by Bolger and the two construction articals by Payson, heck,
that's how this all got started!
Is there anything in the book that I don't have already?
Great picture!
Jim
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > ... not forgetting there is also a Payson book on building this
> > particular design.
> > Howard
>
> Yes, of course. The book, I think, is a collection of the two
> articles in the magazine Small Boat Journal, issues 50 & 51
> from Autumn 1986.
>
> Here is a photo of Dynamite in a Bobcat, from those articles.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/bobcat.jpg
> ... not forgetting there is also a Payson book on building thisYes, of course. The book, I think, is a collection of the two
> particular design.
> Howard
articles in the magazine Small Boat Journal, issues 50 & 51
from Autumn 1986.
Here is a photo of Dynamite in a Bobcat, from those articles.
http://hallman.org/bolger/bobcat.jpg
... not forgetting there is also a Payson book on building this
particular design.
Howard
particular design.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> Of course, read both of the Payson Instant Boat books carefully
> as essentially all your questions are probably already answered
> in those books.
> Somewhere I read that PB & F won'tActually I don't think that is true.
> give help if you buy the plans from Payson, (makes sense to me).
Still, bear in mind that questions about 'errors or ambiguities'
in the drawings should be addressed to the designer.
In the case of all the plans sold by Dynamite Payson, so many
people have looked at them before you, that there is zero chance
you will find any true 'errors or ambiguities'.
Phil Bolger isn't a boat builder, Dynamite Payson *is* a builder.
The most likely questions you will have will be the 'builder'
type of question, and Dynamite Payson is more qualified
to answer those types of questions than Phil Bolger would be.
Of course, read both of the Payson Instant Boat books carefully
as essentially all your questions are probably already answered
in those books.
Certainly it would be easier to buy both the plans and the book from
the one source: Payson.
No matter which way you go, you will always have backup from members
of this group.
Howard
the one source: Payson.
No matter which way you go, you will always have backup from members
of this group.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> I've always found Payson to be helpful (if brief!) with regard to
any queries.
>
> With a set of plans and his book on building the Tiny Cat I doubt
very much if you'd need to bother PCB&F with queries. The plans are
aimed at amateur construction and shouldn't lead to any snags.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: JIm Dix
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 1:04 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Payson & PB & F
>
> I'm looking to buy a set of plans for the Bob Cat aka Tiny Cat.
PB &
> F has plans and so does Payson. Somewhere I read that PB & F
won't
> give help if you buy the plans from Payson, (makes sense to me).
> Payson obviously has a lot of helpful stuff besides the plans.
> What's the best way, plans from PB & F, rest from Payson?
Hi Jim,
I've always found Payson to be helpful (if brief!) with regard to any queries.
With a set of plans and his book on building the Tiny Cat I doubt very much if you'd need to bother PCB&F with queries. The plans are aimed at amateur construction and shouldn't lead to any snags.
Bill
I've always found Payson to be helpful (if brief!) with regard to any queries.
With a set of plans and his book on building the Tiny Cat I doubt very much if you'd need to bother PCB&F with queries. The plans are aimed at amateur construction and shouldn't lead to any snags.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: JIm Dix
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 1:04 PM
Subject: [bolger] Payson & PB & F
I'm looking to buy a set of plans for the Bob Cat aka Tiny Cat. PB &
F has plans and so does Payson. Somewhere I read that PB & F won't
give help if you buy the plans from Payson, (makes sense to me).
Payson obviously has a lot of helpful stuff besides the plans.
What's the best way, plans from PB & F, rest from Payson?
JIm
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm looking to buy a set of plans for the Bob Cat aka Tiny Cat. PB &
F has plans and so does Payson. Somewhere I read that PB & F won't
give help if you buy the plans from Payson, (makes sense to me).
Payson obviously has a lot of helpful stuff besides the plans.
What's the best way, plans from PB & F, rest from Payson?
JIm
F has plans and so does Payson. Somewhere I read that PB & F won't
give help if you buy the plans from Payson, (makes sense to me).
Payson obviously has a lot of helpful stuff besides the plans.
What's the best way, plans from PB & F, rest from Payson?
JIm