Re: [bolger] Re: Jessie Cooper model.
> > We built a Jessie Cooper and sailed it up and down the English Channel, Did theI am curious if you used the 400 lbs of ballast shown on the plans,
> > Bob
or did you use more?
> We built a Jessie Cooper and sailed it up and down the English Channel, Did theGreat to hear a first hand account of Jessie Cooper, ...makes me even more
> Frisian islands and various French canals for several years and it was an awesome
> boat....
> Bob
enthustiastic!
Isn't the Jessie Cooper rig similar to that of Caprice? ...which Chuck
Lienweber built
and gives praise.
And, Bob, I would love to hear more of your experiences and opinions
of Bolger boats.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@y...> wrote:
Cooper. I must however, also defend what Peter said in regards to
spreading misinformation. The "misinformation" we have spread all
comes from the pen of Mr. Bolger himself. It is all given on page 369
of Boat With An Open Mind, a book you recommend on your blog. So it
would seem that only Bolger himself, denigrates the design and it
makes one wonder why?
Do you have any ideas how one would change the mast? Would you prefer
a tablernacle? Would this require an opening in the bow to allow for
the swing of the foot of the mast?
Bolger has some misgivings about the weight of the daggerboard and
it's ability in shallow water.
I am also curious as to how much ballest was installed and what kind
and where?
And was there any conflict with the motor and rudder sharing the same
transom?
What about trailerability?
If you find the boat suitable as is then I am very interested in it
compared to a Long Micro.
Sincerely,
Nels
<loosemoosefilmworks@y...> wrote:
>in spreading
> I'm curious why folks who like Bolgers design so much are so intent
> misinformation on the various boats.It is very informative to hear of your experiences with Jessie
>
Cooper. I must however, also defend what Peter said in regards to
spreading misinformation. The "misinformation" we have spread all
comes from the pen of Mr. Bolger himself. It is all given on page 369
of Boat With An Open Mind, a book you recommend on your blog. So it
would seem that only Bolger himself, denigrates the design and it
makes one wonder why?
Do you have any ideas how one would change the mast? Would you prefer
a tablernacle? Would this require an opening in the bow to allow for
the swing of the foot of the mast?
Bolger has some misgivings about the weight of the daggerboard and
it's ability in shallow water.
I am also curious as to how much ballest was installed and what kind
and where?
And was there any conflict with the motor and rudder sharing the same
transom?
What about trailerability?
If you find the boat suitable as is then I am very interested in it
compared to a Long Micro.
Sincerely,
Nels
> I'm curious why folks who like Bolgers design so much areThere is no arguing with the voice of experience.
> so intent in spreading
> misinformation on the various boats.
However, to take your question literally, I think the big reason is
that Bolger himself seems to take every opportunity to comment on the
(alleged) noisiness of the shapie bow, and prefixed a list of
(alleged) Jesse Cooper shortcommings to his essay on the AS-29. He
has also taken some trouble to design modifications of the bow shape
for various designs for noise reduction reasons.
The reason is NOT complaints from Jesse Cooper owners.
As for the rig, I suppose you would modifiy the balanced lug rig to
keep the yard under control while raising and lowering. The thought
of it getting out of control while getting it down in a squall is off-
putting, especially to an armchair sailor like me. Bolger likes to
suggest the Solent lug (e.g. Wolftrap 30) in larger sizes.
The Solution 48 seems to have a 360 sq ft solent lug aft and a 391
balanced lug forward. Is it a schooner (aft is taller) or a ketch
(fore is bigger)? Anyway, it's a lugger, for sure.
Peter
I'm curious why folks who like Bolgers design so much are so intent in spreading
misinformation on the various boats.
We built a Jessie Cooper and sailed it up and down the English Channel, Did the
Frisian islands and various French canals for several years and it was an awesome
boat....At no time ever in the four and a half years of living aboard did we have any
problem with the so called noise of the flat bottom either underway or at anchor. The
bottom at 1 1/2 inch thick is quite the sound deadener...take my word for it! The
same thing goes for Loose Moose 2 we never lost a nights sleep due to the flat
bottom...By contrast our current boat is a CAL 34 (Lapworth design and it is MUCH
NOISER that either of Phils Sharpies at anchor fiberglass being very noise active while
plywood has a very damping affect.
The single dagger board worked just fine and frankly we could see no discernable
difference from tack to tack ...So why bother with a more complicated more
expensive system? As to the change of mast/rig if there was one single change I
would have made to Loose Moose 2 would have been to change it to the Jessie
Cooper rig which was far superior to the LM2 gaff...
Bob
misinformation on the various boats.
We built a Jessie Cooper and sailed it up and down the English Channel, Did the
Frisian islands and various French canals for several years and it was an awesome
boat....At no time ever in the four and a half years of living aboard did we have any
problem with the so called noise of the flat bottom either underway or at anchor. The
bottom at 1 1/2 inch thick is quite the sound deadener...take my word for it! The
same thing goes for Loose Moose 2 we never lost a nights sleep due to the flat
bottom...By contrast our current boat is a CAL 34 (Lapworth design and it is MUCH
NOISER that either of Phils Sharpies at anchor fiberglass being very noise active while
plywood has a very damping affect.
The single dagger board worked just fine and frankly we could see no discernable
difference from tack to tack ...So why bother with a more complicated more
expensive system? As to the change of mast/rig if there was one single change I
would have made to Loose Moose 2 would have been to change it to the Jessie
Cooper rig which was far superior to the LM2 gaff...
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
That's alright to see it that way and far be it for me,a lowly
lazy pirate, to décortiquer my Heros' writings.Nevertheless,I am
still a pirate and maintain that the greater challenge would be to
attempt a "re-design" within the same dimensions of the
original.Otherwise,as Bolger admits,some "stimulations"(read:money)
result in what is essentially a new commission and not a Jessie
Cooper MkII .Certainly our Hero,who brings to bear a multitude of
reasonings behind each design, may well point to His Jessie Cooper
design as the genisis for the AS-29 and thus justify refering to it
as His re-design of the Jessie Cooper.Similarily, I suppose that the
AS-55 with its "Micro" type keel,could be viewed as a re-design of
the venerable Micro,whereby enough "stimulation" is render by a
client who likes the Micro but wants it to sleep a family of 7,with
lots of enclosed sprawling room while remaining self-righting,ocean
capable and,most importantly,be cheap and"easy" for a home builder
to do.
Incidently, I am not using cop-out in its most perjoritive
sense.......
I can only speculate that were Chuck Merrell given the fair and
proper stimulation his Junkboy desevres,it would be put to the test
and proven to be either a success or failure....
Vive la difference!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> Here is what Bolger writes about his redesign of Jessie Cooper:would-
>
> "Nine years of sporadic ruminations, and some stimulation from
> be owners, led to what I boastingly named the AdvancedSharpie." ...
>did.
> And then he goes on to explain why he made the changes that he
> (Page 370 BWAOM.) I don't see how this could be viewed as a cop-out,
> especially when you consider that Chuck Merrell never evencompleted
> his imaginary re-design!Hi Nels,
>
> Cheers, Nels
That's alright to see it that way and far be it for me,a lowly
lazy pirate, to décortiquer my Heros' writings.Nevertheless,I am
still a pirate and maintain that the greater challenge would be to
attempt a "re-design" within the same dimensions of the
original.Otherwise,as Bolger admits,some "stimulations"(read:money)
result in what is essentially a new commission and not a Jessie
Cooper MkII .Certainly our Hero,who brings to bear a multitude of
reasonings behind each design, may well point to His Jessie Cooper
design as the genisis for the AS-29 and thus justify refering to it
as His re-design of the Jessie Cooper.Similarily, I suppose that the
AS-55 with its "Micro" type keel,could be viewed as a re-design of
the venerable Micro,whereby enough "stimulation" is render by a
client who likes the Micro but wants it to sleep a family of 7,with
lots of enclosed sprawling room while remaining self-righting,ocean
capable and,most importantly,be cheap and"easy" for a home builder
to do.
Incidently, I am not using cop-out in its most perjoritive
sense.......
I can only speculate that were Chuck Merrell given the fair and
proper stimulation his Junkboy desevres,it would be put to the test
and proven to be either a success or failure....
Vive la difference!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> The same problem [running short] occuring with a sheet of plywood canThis is why I like metals. Sheets of aluminum and steel are cut by computer
> be costly since plywood doesn't really stretch thus you either scrap
> that sheet and start over or else cut down the other side to the now
> too short incorrect height just for the sake of economy......
and welded by pros who have almost robotic accuracy in their skill set.
There is an up front investment but hulls could be passed to future
generations.
Bolger's designs would probably give any welder a warm feeling, would probably
survive any abuse, grounding, accident, whatever. Even huge surgical
modifications are common practice and cost effective in the fishing fleets.
> Hurry up and launch your Micro Navigator Bruce, I'm dying to seeWow, that is a nice boat, esp the rig, and a great web page
> some nifty pics :-)
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
From what I understand the 480 pounds of ballest in the Jessie was
not enough and another 1000 or so was added to a couple of the
completed boats, including Tomboy.
***************************
Yes - that is what I like about Long Micro:-)
Cheers, Nels
> Another way to visualize that the difference**************************
> between the two is more than length, because
> the blunt bow of the AS29 gives more effective
> width. In other words, the pointed bow of JS,
> if chopped off, would make her 24'6" long vs.
> 29'6". The ballast of AS29 is more than twice,
> really triple that of Jessie Cooper.
From what I understand the 480 pounds of ballest in the Jessie was
not enough and another 1000 or so was added to a couple of the
completed boats, including Tomboy.
***************************
> AS29 is obviously better, considering that 'more'****************************
> and 'bigger' are desirable.
>
> Though 'small is beautiful' sometimes too.
Yes - that is what I like about Long Micro:-)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
wrote:
However, I
also happen to think that it is something close to a cop-out excuse
when peddled as a re-design for the Jessie Cooper.........sorta like
calling a Peterbilt tractor rig a re-design of the F-150 :-)
Here is what Bolger writes about his redesign of Jessie Cooper:
"Nine years of sporadic ruminations, and some stimulation from would-
be owners, led to what I boastingly named the Advanced Sharpie." ...
And then he goes on to explain why he made the changes that he did.
(Page 370 BWAOM.) I don't see how this could be viewed as a cop-out,
especially when you consider that Chuck Merrell never even completed
his imaginary re-design!
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
However, I
also happen to think that it is something close to a cop-out excuse
when peddled as a re-design for the Jessie Cooper.........sorta like
calling a Peterbilt tractor rig a re-design of the F-150 :-)
Here is what Bolger writes about his redesign of Jessie Cooper:
"Nine years of sporadic ruminations, and some stimulation from would-
be owners, led to what I boastingly named the Advanced Sharpie." ...
And then he goes on to explain why he made the changes that he did.
(Page 370 BWAOM.) I don't see how this could be viewed as a cop-out,
especially when you consider that Chuck Merrell never even completed
his imaginary re-design!
Cheers, Nels
> Jessie Cooper(and many other designsAnother way to visualize that the difference
> for that matter) is to just design a
> longer boat and voila! [snip]
> I really like the AS-29
between the two is more than length, because
the blunt bow of the AS29 gives more effective
width. In other words, the pointed bow of JS,
if chopped off, would make her 24'6" long vs.
29'6". The ballast of AS29 is more than twice,
really triple that of Jessie Cooper.
AS29 is obviously better, considering that 'more'
and 'bigger' are desirable.
Though 'small is beautiful' sometimes too.
===
Point taken, about the sides of JC taking more than
one 4 foot width of plywood. [ditto for AS29]
Though the upper piece, per PCB design the joint
falls efficiently out of a 4 foot piece,
making the bottom of the hull that much
easier to turn over. Planking the bottom with
some tongue and groove floor planks would be
easy and strong.
I have no doubt that the Jessie Cooper could be
a quickly realized boat ONLY if the builder could
resist the urge to put a 'silk purse' finish on her,
and ONLY if the builder could resist the urges to
put added features in/on her.
Thinking back on my Micro Navigator project,
hundreds of hours [half the time] could have been saved
if I had not chosen to put in:
1) insulation and ceilings throughout
2) deck crowns & cabin wall curvatures.
3) radius corners to the windows.
4) dedicated trailer [vs hired trucker]
5) bright finish on wooden trim
6) photovoltaic, electrical, sound system
7) overly complex forward window
8) cleats for stowing lines on cabin ceiling
9) too fancy forward hatch cover
10) grab rails on decks
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
for I believe when you start considering a boat with standing
headroom and half way proper live-a-board accomadations "simple",
then you have fallen head-over-heals for the concept instead of the
execution of same :-) The only exception to this that I can see
applies to the "quick-n-dirty" approach to boat building which is a
false economy when you get into the bigger size range.
I know I am guilty of this same sort of thinking when I consider
Windermere.Hell,just 1 bottom panel,2 side panels,4 bulkheads and a
roof.What could be simpler?! In fact, Bolgers plywood boats require
a fair amount of un-expected precision for all the panels to align
perfectly,especially when Bolger uses the maximum ply dimensions to
get a particular shape.Imagine an area of 32 square feet( 1 X 4 X 8
Sheet) done with conventional planking or strip planking.Running a
bit short is no problem,since you just add either another plank or a
strip or two.The same problem occuring with a sheet of plywood can
be costly since plywood doesn't really stretch thus you either scrap
that sheet and start over or else cut down the other side to the now
too short incorrect height just for the sake of economy and balance.
A few more mistakes like that and you are "playing designer" with a
boat that has jumped off its tracks heading who knows where......
Hurry up and launch your Micro Navigator Bruce, I'm dying to see
some nifty pics :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
>"Simplicity" may be a word best applied to dinghies and the like,
> Basically, making the model made me realize that Jessie
> Cooper is only 4 feet shorter than AS29, but you need to
> measure size in a boat by displacement, not length.
>
> Building Jessie Cooper in my mind, I imagine using MDO
> plywood and an air powered nail gun, simple and quick.
>
>
> So many of the proposed 'improvements' to Jessie Cooper come at
> the cost of increased complexity, spoiling her biggest
> appeal, simplicity.
for I believe when you start considering a boat with standing
headroom and half way proper live-a-board accomadations "simple",
then you have fallen head-over-heals for the concept instead of the
execution of same :-) The only exception to this that I can see
applies to the "quick-n-dirty" approach to boat building which is a
false economy when you get into the bigger size range.
I know I am guilty of this same sort of thinking when I consider
Windermere.Hell,just 1 bottom panel,2 side panels,4 bulkheads and a
roof.What could be simpler?! In fact, Bolgers plywood boats require
a fair amount of un-expected precision for all the panels to align
perfectly,especially when Bolger uses the maximum ply dimensions to
get a particular shape.Imagine an area of 32 square feet( 1 X 4 X 8
Sheet) done with conventional planking or strip planking.Running a
bit short is no problem,since you just add either another plank or a
strip or two.The same problem occuring with a sheet of plywood can
be costly since plywood doesn't really stretch thus you either scrap
that sheet and start over or else cut down the other side to the now
too short incorrect height just for the sake of economy and balance.
A few more mistakes like that and you are "playing designer" with a
boat that has jumped off its tracks heading who knows where......
Hurry up and launch your Micro Navigator Bruce, I'm dying to see
some nifty pics :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
the "easy" way around alot of the so called short-comings of Jessie
Cooper(and many other designs for that matter) is to just design a
longer boat and voila! However,the bigger challenge is to remain
within the same over-all dimensions,presumeably maintaining the same
style and size that first attracked one to the original design in
the first place, and then improving on THAT.
I really like the AS-29 and think it a fine stand alone design
which needs no further justification for its existance. However, I
also happen to think that it is something close to a cop-out excuse
when peddled as a re-design for the Jessie Cooper.........sorta like
calling a Peterbilt tractor rig a re-design of the F-150 :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, counting down the days to winter.....
> This is an interesting exercise in design philosophy when weconsider
> what Chuck did in his redesign and compare it to what PCB did -which
> was to re-design it as the AS29.And that is precisely what I find most interesting. I suppose
the "easy" way around alot of the so called short-comings of Jessie
Cooper(and many other designs for that matter) is to just design a
longer boat and voila! However,the bigger challenge is to remain
within the same over-all dimensions,presumeably maintaining the same
style and size that first attracked one to the original design in
the first place, and then improving on THAT.
I really like the AS-29 and think it a fine stand alone design
which needs no further justification for its existance. However, I
also happen to think that it is something close to a cop-out excuse
when peddled as a re-design for the Jessie Cooper.........sorta like
calling a Peterbilt tractor rig a re-design of the F-150 :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, counting down the days to winter.....
Test model
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/25.jpg
Junk
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/saisha.html
Funky Motorsailor
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/gina_large
Bluebird of Thorne
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/assets/BlueBird.gif
Bluebird Notes
http://www.kastenmarine.com/roll_attenuation.htm
Check this sexy Frenchie !!
http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/images/monohulls/red_magnum.jpg
Sprechen zie Deutsch ??
http://www.reinke-yacht.de/pages/typyachten.htm#S10
Ok, I am bored, but now that I think about loading any boat w/o cradle, it
depends if you have to drive I-44 in Missouri, that road will crush beach
balls.
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
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http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/25.jpg
Junk
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/saisha.html
Funky Motorsailor
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/gina_large
Bluebird of Thorne
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/assets/BlueBird.gif
Bluebird Notes
http://www.kastenmarine.com/roll_attenuation.htm
Check this sexy Frenchie !!
http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/images/monohulls/red_magnum.jpg
Sprechen zie Deutsch ??
http://www.reinke-yacht.de/pages/typyachten.htm#S10
Ok, I am bored, but now that I think about loading any boat w/o cradle, it
depends if you have to drive I-44 in Missouri, that road will crush beach
balls.
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
>=====
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > AND !!
> >
> > * Can be trucked w/o a cradle ( my fav cuz I am a trucker )
> >
> Looking at the various models at the Bray site and knowing the
> pounding a boat takes on the highway over long distances, I certainly
> would consider a cradle as being necessary for both safety and
> security. I would like to see a photo of any of those boats on a
> flatbed trailer since I can't imagine it being all that convenient,
> loading them up without a cradle. Are there links to any photos?
>
> Also, drying out on a sloping shoreline is not that great with twin
> keels as you are on a slant no matter which way you are facing. With
> a single keel you can level the boat easier on an uneven surface,
> especially a shallow keel like on a Micro.
>
> BTW the craziest boat race in the world is in it's third week now:
>
>http://www.vendeeglobe.org/uk/home
>
> Cheers, Nels
>
>
>
>
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
pounding a boat takes on the highway over long distances, I certainly
would consider a cradle as being necessary for both safety and
security. I would like to see a photo of any of those boats on a
flatbed trailer since I can't imagine it being all that convenient,
loading them up without a cradle. Are there links to any photos?
Also, drying out on a sloping shoreline is not that great with twin
keels as you are on a slant no matter which way you are facing. With
a single keel you can level the boat easier on an uneven surface,
especially a shallow keel like on a Micro.
BTW the craziest boat race in the world is in it's third week now:
http://www.vendeeglobe.org/uk/home
Cheers, Nels
>Looking at the various models at the Bray site and knowing the
>
> AND !!
>
> * Can be trucked w/o a cradle ( my fav cuz I am a trucker )
>
pounding a boat takes on the highway over long distances, I certainly
would consider a cradle as being necessary for both safety and
security. I would like to see a photo of any of those boats on a
flatbed trailer since I can't imagine it being all that convenient,
loading them up without a cradle. Are there links to any photos?
Also, drying out on a sloping shoreline is not that great with twin
keels as you are on a slant no matter which way you are facing. With
a single keel you can level the boat easier on an uneven surface,
especially a shallow keel like on a Micro.
BTW the craziest boat race in the world is in it's third week now:
http://www.vendeeglobe.org/uk/home
Cheers, Nels
Depends on what kind of competition !! I like to race, but only to humilate
folks w/ much more expensive boats than mine.
Obviously there is no race for cruisers which includes shallow water. The
designer concludes from his tests that they are on par w/ single keel cruising
counter parts.
I would perfer a twin keel over centerboard cuz keel boats dont knock down (as
easily) as centerboarders (and leeboarders).
I have a ranger 23 which I know for a fact, wont go over.
You should look at his designs, his twin keeled junk is highly familiar.
John
--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
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folks w/ much more expensive boats than mine.
Obviously there is no race for cruisers which includes shallow water. The
designer concludes from his tests that they are on par w/ single keel cruising
counter parts.
I would perfer a twin keel over centerboard cuz keel boats dont knock down (as
easily) as centerboarders (and leeboarders).
I have a ranger 23 which I know for a fact, wont go over.
You should look at his designs, his twin keeled junk is highly familiar.
John
--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
>=====
> If they are so wonderfully efficient, why don't we see them on
> competitive performance boats? Is it because the rules don't permit
> them? Surely this can't be true of all competitive classes.
>
> Where we do see them mostly is in slow cruising boats, where they
> have an obvious advantage in reducing draft, ease of trailering and
> the potential to stand upright on the bottom (if they don't tilt nose-
> down) etc.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I guess I am abusing your mailboxes so I will offer this paraphrase
> of the this
> > brilliant but wordy web page.
> >
> > From "The advantages of Twin Keels"
> >http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html
>
>
>
>
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> <http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html>That would be true if comparing them to a traditional long keeled
>
> * twin keels are of high aspect ratio and present less wetted area
> than a full
> keel .. while retaining the steady helm of full keels
cruiser with the rudder hung on its after end. It's not true of some of
the more modern fin keel designs.
> * They have the ability to take groundings in a level position allowingStrong points, both of them. And most useful in a boat that is going to
> cleaning and painting and the boat rights and clears itself when grouding
>
> AND !!
>
> * Can be trucked w/o a cradle ( my fav cuz I am a trucker )
be cruised and not (for the most part) raced.
>In that case they act as brakes. It must be hard to get it just right
> One of the possible problems with twin keels is that they turn out not
> to be fair with the actual flow under the boat.
because they have earned a reputation for being slower than single keels.
I guess that its all a question of what compromise you make to get the
boat most useful for what you want to do with it. In my part of the
country it is getting to be next to impossible to get a mooring within a
lifetime at any nearby harbor. Phil Bolger's flat bottom extremely shoal
draft leeboard sailboats can be happily moored out of the deep part of
the harbor (or even exclusively trailer sailed.) Some harbormasters
don't seem to mind letting someone moor on a mudflat. Some do.
Jim Pope
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Quite simply, the reason you don't see them on racing craft is that
twin keels are really slower. There are two appendages in the water
creating turbulence and drag. If these were powerboats, it would be
different in that the prop would have significantly more bite than
behind the disturbed water flowing off the keel.
Designers have been working at the perfect shape for an underwater
foil for years by trying to increase lift without increasing drag.
This is a delicate balance that becomes more so with two underwater
appendages.
If Bolger got the keel shape right, he should be designing America's
Cup boats! think about it...The defense for the cup in an AS90!
Cheers.
David Jost
(June Bug starting in the garage tomorrow :-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
twin keels are really slower. There are two appendages in the water
creating turbulence and drag. If these were powerboats, it would be
different in that the prop would have significantly more bite than
behind the disturbed water flowing off the keel.
Designers have been working at the perfect shape for an underwater
foil for years by trying to increase lift without increasing drag.
This is a delicate balance that becomes more so with two underwater
appendages.
If Bolger got the keel shape right, he should be designing America's
Cup boats! think about it...The defense for the cup in an AS90!
Cheers.
David Jost
(June Bug starting in the garage tomorrow :-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>permit
> If they are so wonderfully efficient, why don't we see them on
> competitive performance boats? Is it because the rules don't
> them? Surely this can't be true of all competitive classes.
>.html
If they are so wonderfully efficient, why don't we see them on
competitive performance boats? Is it because the rules don't permit
them? Surely this can't be true of all competitive classes.
Where we do see them mostly is in slow cruising boats, where they
have an obvious advantage in reducing draft, ease of trailering and
the potential to stand upright on the bottom (if they don't tilt nose-
down) etc.
Howard
competitive performance boats? Is it because the rules don't permit
them? Surely this can't be true of all competitive classes.
Where we do see them mostly is in slow cruising boats, where they
have an obvious advantage in reducing draft, ease of trailering and
the potential to stand upright on the bottom (if they don't tilt nose-
down) etc.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
>
> I guess I am abusing your mailboxes so I will offer this paraphrase
of the this
> brilliant but wordy web page.
>
> From "The advantages of Twin Keels"
>http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html
I guess I am abusing your mailboxes so I will offer this paraphrase of the this
brilliant but wordy web page.
From "The advantages of Twin Keels"
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html
* twin keels are of high aspect ratio and present less wetted area than a full
keel .. while retaining the steady helm of full keels
* The twin keels become more effective with increased angle of heel, while a
single keel becomes less effective (like bilgeboards)
* The wave pattern reshapes to reduce the fore and aft crests .. bilge keels
cause a wave to form in [the midships] hollow, canceling out the stern wave
(but he says placement is critical and needs to be model tested)
* there is stabilizing action of the fins which also dampen out rolling motions
and add a certain amount of lift to the stern reducing squatting (increased
hull speed)
* Directional stability is markedly enhanced by the fins
* Speed under power is better cuz the prop can work in clear water
* The [twin] rudder areas are smaller for the same reason as the keels
* Both keels and rudders can be asymmetrical like a wing, it is felt that both
the rudders and keels can be made 25-30% smaller
* Windward performance equal to that of an ordinary yacht and in rough water is
superior because of the roll and pitch dampening
* Stability is equal to that of an ordinary yacht because ballast can be placed
in each fin
* They have the ability to take groundings in a level position allowing
cleaning and painting and the boat rights and clears itself when grouding
AND !!
* Can be trucked w/o a cradle ( my fav cuz I am a trucker )
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brilliant but wordy web page.
From "The advantages of Twin Keels"
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/article_twinkeels.html
* twin keels are of high aspect ratio and present less wetted area than a full
keel .. while retaining the steady helm of full keels
* The twin keels become more effective with increased angle of heel, while a
single keel becomes less effective (like bilgeboards)
* The wave pattern reshapes to reduce the fore and aft crests .. bilge keels
cause a wave to form in [the midships] hollow, canceling out the stern wave
(but he says placement is critical and needs to be model tested)
* there is stabilizing action of the fins which also dampen out rolling motions
and add a certain amount of lift to the stern reducing squatting (increased
hull speed)
* Directional stability is markedly enhanced by the fins
* Speed under power is better cuz the prop can work in clear water
* The [twin] rudder areas are smaller for the same reason as the keels
* Both keels and rudders can be asymmetrical like a wing, it is felt that both
the rudders and keels can be made 25-30% smaller
* Windward performance equal to that of an ordinary yacht and in rough water is
superior because of the roll and pitch dampening
* Stability is equal to that of an ordinary yacht because ballast can be placed
in each fin
* They have the ability to take groundings in a level position allowing
cleaning and painting and the boat rights and clears itself when grouding
AND !!
* Can be trucked w/o a cradle ( my fav cuz I am a trucker )
=====
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> In my area of the country almost every farmer has a 30 foot goose-Nels, you gotta move to the coast, I think the heartland is getting to you.
> neck flatbed trailer which they use to haul bales and often towed
> with a two ton truck. Each time I see one go by I imagine an AS29 on
> the trailer.
I live in Missouri, but I am a trucker and get to the beach twice a week.
John
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Bolger has written about this or a similar design that he has thought
better of the cross-planked bottom and would use plywood instead.
This would no doubt eliminate his concern about the strength of JC's
bottom.
Another "fault" of this kind of shape is that it's not possible to
gain access to the bottom without slipping the boat. Whereas with a
bilge-panel bottom (like a couple of PCB's houseboat designs), a boat
can be beached at high tide and tipped over on either bilge to get to
the bottom.
Howard
better of the cross-planked bottom and would use plywood instead.
This would no doubt eliminate his concern about the strength of JC's
bottom.
Another "fault" of this kind of shape is that it's not possible to
gain access to the bottom without slipping the boat. Whereas with a
bilge-panel bottom (like a couple of PCB's houseboat designs), a boat
can be beached at high tide and tipped over on either bilge to get to
the bottom.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>http://community.webshots.com/album/219238842rgmtty
>
> shows a quick and dirty model I made of a Jessie Cooper.
> For scale, Jessie Cooper is 25'6" and has standing
> headroom in the 'galley'.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
HOUSEBOAT - BWAOM Page 309. I really admire this design if one is not
into sailing their liveaboard. It could be moved like VOLUNTEER with
a dedicated FASTBRICK complete with it's own sailing rig, and capable
of overnight camping.
If one wants to sail occasionally in the liveaboard, and simpler is
better, then of course the perfect solution is SUPERBRICK which is a
form of subsidized housing if you are the first to build it!
I wonder how much work it would be to add a keel like FLYING CLOUD
which is simply a narrow sharpie hull with a strong sheer attached to
the bottom? This would add some draft but would not require a
bilgeboard and give one a built-in wine cellar to boot!
Short mast, easily stowed rig, incredible view from the master
bedroom or the raised cockpit:-)
This design is the ultimate nose snubber.
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
>> Bolger used a bilge panel for his liveaboard scow schooner.Jesse's
> side is more than one panel high, so a little change of shape wouldSounds to me like you are thinking about something like the BARGE
> not be a great complication. It would give greater beam for more
> flexibility in accomdation, a quieter entry, etc.
>
HOUSEBOAT - BWAOM Page 309. I really admire this design if one is not
into sailing their liveaboard. It could be moved like VOLUNTEER with
a dedicated FASTBRICK complete with it's own sailing rig, and capable
of overnight camping.
If one wants to sail occasionally in the liveaboard, and simpler is
better, then of course the perfect solution is SUPERBRICK which is a
form of subsidized housing if you are the first to build it!
I wonder how much work it would be to add a keel like FLYING CLOUD
which is simply a narrow sharpie hull with a strong sheer attached to
the bottom? This would add some draft but would not require a
bilgeboard and give one a built-in wine cellar to boot!
Short mast, easily stowed rig, incredible view from the master
bedroom or the raised cockpit:-)
This design is the ultimate nose snubber.
Cheers, Nels
> If you want a much simpler Jesse, leave off the rig and make her aI meant a stright powerboat, of course.
> straight sailer.
> So many of the proposed 'improvements' to Jessie Cooper come atI don't find her to be so simple. One builder described the AS-29
> the cost of increased complexity, spoiling her biggest
> appeal, simplicity.
as "intricate", and I think it would apply to Jesse, too.
Jesse was designed for tight space constraints in the builder's
shop, and the sharpie theme was carried over into the AS-29
because....well, it is Bolger after all. But I think a non-sharpie
model would be better.
Bolger used a bilge panel for his liveaboard scow schooner. Jesse's
side is more than one panel high, so a little change of shape would
not be a great complication. It would give greater beam for more
flexibility in accomdation, a quieter entry, etc.
If you want a much simpler Jesse, leave off the rig and make her a
straight sailer.
Peter
> I interpret what you are saying is that it has twice the interiorBasically, making the model made me realize that Jessie
> space of a Long Micro and half the work and cost to build of the
> AS29? In which case I totally agree.
Cooper is only 4 feet shorter than AS29, but you need to
measure size in a boat by displacement, not length.
Building Jessie Cooper in my mind, I imagine using MDO
plywood and an air powered nail gun, simple and quick.
The famous photos of Jessie Cooper include sitting on a tidal flat
and berthed in a marina, which to my eye look like Puget Sound,
where the ability to dryout on a tidal flat is a big advantage.
Regarding the sideways berth, I imagine that the flat bottom
would give a lot of 'initial stabiiltiy', especially when moored
in an out of the way cove, or at a marina.
So many of the proposed 'improvements' to Jessie Cooper come at
the cost of increased complexity, spoiling her biggest
appeal, simplicity.
I always thought the JC was about right in the size department but
it sure has a list of shortcommings. Always wondered if bolger
revised it but never heard much about it if he did.
Awkward dagger boards, wierd berth arangement, odd OB placement,
wierd cockpit that could hold alot of water...those rear ports would
drain fast but seem water would regularly flood it in a following
sea. Anyone notice the rocker profile is the same as
parado3x's...Chine runners maybe :) Time for a navigator version
maybe?
Bolger mentions the bottom being the weak point in the boat and
makes me wonder why some of tyhe other sharpies would be any better
off. Bolger's design # 843 the class IV OSTAR racer is that sporty
as29 with the monster cat gaff rig and the 1000 lbs dagger board was
designed specifically for offshore work seems like the bottom here
could be a problem too.? This would be the only "sharpie" i would
venture off shore in. Not much headroom but i'm sure the pilot house
could be a foot or two longer giving you room to stretch out a bit.
Nels i used to live in montana and right outside the imperial valley
in CA and i too have seen those 30 ft alfalfa haulers and thought
about a monster sharpie on board.
Jason
I put the ostar 30 in bolger 4photos groups files here:
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gBieQbGaa7c5V-
6wxqQI44qHe7Io_esVdc7_jev2IGKkYq6-85slsGS-Cc5XACVZkBjwwBf1XVkDFdnCBN-
B24Ghd217Mf_AvFvltexaNw/pb_ostar_30.jpg
or here:
http://tinyurl.com/3tyzj
it sure has a list of shortcommings. Always wondered if bolger
revised it but never heard much about it if he did.
Awkward dagger boards, wierd berth arangement, odd OB placement,
wierd cockpit that could hold alot of water...those rear ports would
drain fast but seem water would regularly flood it in a following
sea. Anyone notice the rocker profile is the same as
parado3x's...Chine runners maybe :) Time for a navigator version
maybe?
Bolger mentions the bottom being the weak point in the boat and
makes me wonder why some of tyhe other sharpies would be any better
off. Bolger's design # 843 the class IV OSTAR racer is that sporty
as29 with the monster cat gaff rig and the 1000 lbs dagger board was
designed specifically for offshore work seems like the bottom here
could be a problem too.? This would be the only "sharpie" i would
venture off shore in. Not much headroom but i'm sure the pilot house
could be a foot or two longer giving you room to stretch out a bit.
Nels i used to live in montana and right outside the imperial valley
in CA and i too have seen those 30 ft alfalfa haulers and thought
about a monster sharpie on board.
Jason
I put the ostar 30 in bolger 4photos groups files here:
http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/gBieQbGaa7c5V-
6wxqQI44qHe7Io_esVdc7_jev2IGKkYq6-85slsGS-Cc5XACVZkBjwwBf1XVkDFdnCBN-
B24Ghd217Mf_AvFvltexaNw/pb_ostar_30.jpg
or here:
http://tinyurl.com/3tyzj
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
wrote:
what Chuck did in his redesign and compare it to what PCB did - which
was to re-design it as the AS29.
The mast on Junkboy is almost 40 feet tall if it extends to the hull
bottom. In the AS29 both masts are counterweighted in tabernacles and
can be raised and lowered by a woman, or even an old man like me!
To get the sleeping-length settees PCB added 4 feet to the mid
section which also gave considerably more storage space. And allowed
the head to be on the centerline, The larger living area also allows
more space for the installtion of a bulkhead heater. Yet being longer
and narrower she would be consderably faster.
By the time one did all the Junkboy mods, I wonder how much money and
time would be saved over just building an AS29?
In my area of the country almost every farmer has a 30 foot goose-
neck flatbed trailer which they use to haul bales and often towed
with a two ton truck. Each time I see one go by I imagine an AS29 on
the trailer.
The other interesting thing is PCB's final comment on the AS29 design:
"The Advanced Sharpie suffers from booming poundng at anchor..... I
have the glimmerings of some ideas for improvements."
As for sleeping athwartship - perhaps making the bed large enough
would enable one to sleep either way. Then, you and the guests can
all sleep in one bed if need be:-)
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
>> She certainly is a nice size and fits well with most backyardThis is an interesting exercise in design philosophy when we consider
> sizes. However, if I we're to go that route, I would give serious
> attention to Chuck Merrells' "version" of Jessie Cooper seen here:
>
>http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/pages/junkboy.htm
>
what Chuck did in his redesign and compare it to what PCB did - which
was to re-design it as the AS29.
The mast on Junkboy is almost 40 feet tall if it extends to the hull
bottom. In the AS29 both masts are counterweighted in tabernacles and
can be raised and lowered by a woman, or even an old man like me!
To get the sleeping-length settees PCB added 4 feet to the mid
section which also gave considerably more storage space. And allowed
the head to be on the centerline, The larger living area also allows
more space for the installtion of a bulkhead heater. Yet being longer
and narrower she would be consderably faster.
By the time one did all the Junkboy mods, I wonder how much money and
time would be saved over just building an AS29?
In my area of the country almost every farmer has a 30 foot goose-
neck flatbed trailer which they use to haul bales and often towed
with a two ton truck. Each time I see one go by I imagine an AS29 on
the trailer.
The other interesting thing is PCB's final comment on the AS29 design:
"The Advanced Sharpie suffers from booming poundng at anchor..... I
have the glimmerings of some ideas for improvements."
As for sleeping athwartship - perhaps making the bed large enough
would enable one to sleep either way. Then, you and the guests can
all sleep in one bed if need be:-)
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
She certainly is a nice size and fits well with most backyard
sizes. However, if I we're to go that route, I would give serious
attention to Chuck Merrells' "version" of Jessie Cooper seen here:
http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/pages/junkboy.htm
The rig is,to my eye, better suited for more serious off-shore
sailing compared to the standing lug of the original Bolger
version.Chuck has also done away with that monster daggerboard and
replaced it with a proven shoal draft"Micro" keel.It doesn,t take
long to write up a list of potential problems with that huge dagger
board and that is only the first list addressing building a sound
and robust board/slot combo.The second list encompasses use
scenarios and this is where I stopped thinking about Jessie
Cooper.....at least until I saw Chucks "Junkboy".....
Anyhow, not to be blasphemous( I really am a big fan of our
HERO!) I just always thought this crafty design deserved a
MKII,which Chuck surely did right.
Happy dreams!
Peter Lenihan
> Jessie Cooper seems very easy to build, and justBruce,
> the perfect size for simple 'live a board' use.
She certainly is a nice size and fits well with most backyard
sizes. However, if I we're to go that route, I would give serious
attention to Chuck Merrells' "version" of Jessie Cooper seen here:
http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/pages/junkboy.htm
The rig is,to my eye, better suited for more serious off-shore
sailing compared to the standing lug of the original Bolger
version.Chuck has also done away with that monster daggerboard and
replaced it with a proven shoal draft"Micro" keel.It doesn,t take
long to write up a list of potential problems with that huge dagger
board and that is only the first list addressing building a sound
and robust board/slot combo.The second list encompasses use
scenarios and this is where I stopped thinking about Jessie
Cooper.....at least until I saw Chucks "Junkboy".....
Anyhow, not to be blasphemous( I really am a big fan of our
HERO!) I just always thought this crafty design deserved a
MKII,which Chuck surely did right.
Happy dreams!
Peter Lenihan
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
There are ways to address,or attenuate, "noise" in these flat
bottom boats, and Bolger has given us some examples of workable
solutions. However, I think the real buggaboo,and this is something
I've rarely seen mentioned,is the forever-to-be-damned athwarthship
berth that Bolger has shown in some of his work. Spend a few
nights,or even try to make it through one night at
anchor,sleeping"sideways" and you will know what I mean. Vile curses
will be uttered and hurled toward the designer of such abominations!
Of course,there will be that wee percentile of the population who
apparently are uneffected by such things.....the same group who can
drink water from a glass while hanging upside down.....if ya know
what I mean :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, just a regular fore-n-aft sorta guy..........
>Hi Nels,
> > Now the only thng left is that noisy bottom!
>
> Cheers, Nels
There are ways to address,or attenuate, "noise" in these flat
bottom boats, and Bolger has given us some examples of workable
solutions. However, I think the real buggaboo,and this is something
I've rarely seen mentioned,is the forever-to-be-damned athwarthship
berth that Bolger has shown in some of his work. Spend a few
nights,or even try to make it through one night at
anchor,sleeping"sideways" and you will know what I mean. Vile curses
will be uttered and hurled toward the designer of such abominations!
Of course,there will be that wee percentile of the population who
apparently are uneffected by such things.....the same group who can
drink water from a glass while hanging upside down.....if ya know
what I mean :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, just a regular fore-n-aft sorta guy..........
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
space of a Long Micro and half the work and cost to build of the
AS29? In which case I totally agree. And also agree that the interior
could be designed to improve the guest accomodations, which leaves
the other disadvantages still evident. Also it apparently needs more
ballest than was called for in the original plans.
Therefore I wonder how much extra work to install twin bilge boards,
and a tabernacled mast? Have the bottom covered by a 1/2" steel plate
and an inboard motorwell like The WBJ Schooner with a Yamaha 9.9 hp 4-
stroke. That would be an awesome ship at a fairly low cost, using 3/4
G1S MDO Concrete form plywood.
Now the only thng left is that noisy bottom!
Cheers, Nels
> Contemplating Jessie Cooper I realize that it is twiceI interpret what you are saying is that it has twice the interior
> the boat of a Long Micro, and half the boat of an
> Advanced Sharpie 29.
>
space of a Long Micro and half the work and cost to build of the
AS29? In which case I totally agree. And also agree that the interior
could be designed to improve the guest accomodations, which leaves
the other disadvantages still evident. Also it apparently needs more
ballest than was called for in the original plans.
Therefore I wonder how much extra work to install twin bilge boards,
and a tabernacled mast? Have the bottom covered by a 1/2" steel plate
and an inboard motorwell like The WBJ Schooner with a Yamaha 9.9 hp 4-
stroke. That would be an awesome ship at a fairly low cost, using 3/4
G1S MDO Concrete form plywood.
Now the only thng left is that noisy bottom!
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
superior in the article you mention. Several of his newer designs
have them.
However he says in "Boats With An Open Mind", page 266 "Bilge fins
are not a favorite of mine." and goes on to explain why. They are
slow and apt to be weak, which of course Bray Yacht Designs does not
agree with.
To me a bilge board may be better since it is not as apt to get hung
up on rocks as it is retractable and when fully retracted would not
be as difficult to load onto a trailer in my view.
However I am mostly interested in small boats of 20 feet or less. So
a 48 footer is a whole new design challenge - out of me league - and
a whole larger level of cost and time to build than I am interested
in:-)
Cheers, Nels
> This guy sure likes twin keels !!nicely
>
>http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/articles.html
>
> I like the solution 48, I think twin keels would finish it off
>Bolger also seems to like bilge boards which are mentioned as being
superior in the article you mention. Several of his newer designs
have them.
However he says in "Boats With An Open Mind", page 266 "Bilge fins
are not a favorite of mine." and goes on to explain why. They are
slow and apt to be weak, which of course Bray Yacht Designs does not
agree with.
To me a bilge board may be better since it is not as apt to get hung
up on rocks as it is retractable and when fully retracted would not
be as difficult to load onto a trailer in my view.
However I am mostly interested in small boats of 20 feet or less. So
a 48 footer is a whole new design challenge - out of me league - and
a whole larger level of cost and time to build than I am interested
in:-)
Cheers, Nels
http://community.webshots.com/album/219238842rgmtty
shows a quick and dirty model I made of a Jessie Cooper.
For scale, Jessie Cooper is 25'6" and has standing
headroom in the 'galley'.
[Sorry for the blurs, my digital camera is weak.]
Contemplating Jessie Cooper I realize that it is twice
the boat of a Long Micro, and half the boat of an
Advanced Sharpie 29.
Jessie Cooper seems very easy to build, and just
the perfect size for simple 'live a board' use. The
flat bottom, shoal draft are a plus. Bolger wrote that
if he trusted the bottom fasteners, he would be more
willing to cross the Atlantic in a J.C. than in a
Sea Bird.
One complaint I have read is that it lacks a guest
berth, but I see that in a pinch, the table top could
be fitted to span between the two settee seats,
and a person could sleep athwart ship there.
shows a quick and dirty model I made of a Jessie Cooper.
For scale, Jessie Cooper is 25'6" and has standing
headroom in the 'galley'.
[Sorry for the blurs, my digital camera is weak.]
Contemplating Jessie Cooper I realize that it is twice
the boat of a Long Micro, and half the boat of an
Advanced Sharpie 29.
Jessie Cooper seems very easy to build, and just
the perfect size for simple 'live a board' use. The
flat bottom, shoal draft are a plus. Bolger wrote that
if he trusted the bottom fasteners, he would be more
willing to cross the Atlantic in a J.C. than in a
Sea Bird.
One complaint I have read is that it lacks a guest
berth, but I see that in a pinch, the table top could
be fitted to span between the two settee seats,
and a person could sleep athwart ship there.
This guy sure likes twin keels !!
http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/articles.html
I like the solution 48, I think twin keels would finish it off nicely
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
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http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/articles.html
I like the solution 48, I think twin keels would finish it off nicely
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
>=====
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I have always loved the concept of twin keels, for many reasons. (
> I can list
> > them if you want )
> >
> > Do you think a wing between the two twin-keels make sense ??
> >
> > John van V.
>
> No - I would think it wouldn't make sense, as you would end up with a
> slower boat, due to the added wetted surface, and wing tip vorticies
> as well perhaps.
>
> I consider the articulated swing keel to be the ideal design if you
> want a fast boat with shallow draft and the ability to lie flat on
> the ground or trailer. But in a slower boat it is not worth the extra
> complication, since it will not speed up a slow boat. It will allow a
> fast boat to be fast and convenient to use! The split rig also adds
> to it's performance I would think.
>
> Cheers, Nels
>
>
>
>
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
slower boat, due to the added wetted surface, and wing tip vorticies
as well perhaps.
I consider the articulated swing keel to be the ideal design if you
want a fast boat with shallow draft and the ability to lie flat on
the ground or trailer. But in a slower boat it is not worth the extra
complication, since it will not speed up a slow boat. It will allow a
fast boat to be fast and convenient to use! The split rig also adds
to it's performance I would think.
Cheers, Nels
>I can list
> I have always loved the concept of twin keels, for many reasons. (
> them if you want )No - I would think it wouldn't make sense, as you would end up with a
>
> Do you think a wing between the two twin-keels make sense ??
>
> John van V.
slower boat, due to the added wetted surface, and wing tip vorticies
as well perhaps.
I consider the articulated swing keel to be the ideal design if you
want a fast boat with shallow draft and the ability to lie flat on
the ground or trailer. But in a slower boat it is not worth the extra
complication, since it will not speed up a slow boat. It will allow a
fast boat to be fast and convenient to use! The split rig also adds
to it's performance I would think.
Cheers, Nels
I have always loved the concept of twin keels, for many reasons. ( I can list
them if you want )
Do you think a wing between the two twin-keels make sense ??
John van V.
PS, forget building a hull at the moment, from what I hear you can recycle
damaged floridian boats for a song now in any configuration you can imagine.
--- David Ryan <david@...> wrote:
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them if you want )
Do you think a wing between the two twin-keels make sense ??
John van V.
PS, forget building a hull at the moment, from what I hear you can recycle
damaged floridian boats for a song now in any configuration you can imagine.
--- David Ryan <david@...> wrote:
> Being able to anchor a 60 footer in 2 feet of water and know that if=====
> the NW wind blows the tide out another foot that she'll ground gently
> is a pretty big plus. But the real attraction for me is being able to
> put (what promises to be) a high performance 60 foot schooner in my
> back yard during the off season.
>
> The cost of the steel and galvanizing are trivial. The cost of pouring
> the lead is virtually the same, regardless of keel configuration. The
> wildcard is cutting and fabrication. There are some indications that
> this might not be crushingly expensive. Steel is a common material,
> with lots of outfits that do this sort of work. Competition and
> economies of scale tend to keep prices down. My best guess is that the
> keel will cost half of what I originally budgeted for it.
>
> Unfortunately, it looks like most of that saving will disappear into
> the run up in plywood prices! :-(
>
> YIBB,
>
> David
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 05:35 PM, Susan Davis wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm sure that the I60 Marching and Chowder Society is reading closely.
> >
> > Very.
> >
> >> I'm not a mechanic, so while I can see how it's supposed to work, I
> >> wouldn't presume to offer suggestions for "improvements." I do
> >> wonder though, whether it's really worth the trouble. After all,
> >> what is the return on the effort?
> >
> > The ability to trailer the I60 in one trip. Also, the ability to run
> > her up on the beach, dry out on a tidal flat for repairs, operate in
> > shallow water at all, launch and recover in remote areas with no
> > cranes, et cetera.
> >
> > --
> > Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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> Steel is a common material,Based on my friend's experience tying to get a pair of hinges welded
> with lots of outfits that do this sort of work. Competition and
> economies of scale tend to keep prices down.
up for a Folding Schooner, prices vary over wide dynamic range.
Skill, too, I suppose. This is definitely an item where a lot of
shopping around can save a big percentage of the cost.
Being able to anchor a 60 footer in 2 feet of water and know that if
the NW wind blows the tide out another foot that she'll ground gently
is a pretty big plus. But the real attraction for me is being able to
put (what promises to be) a high performance 60 foot schooner in my
back yard during the off season.
The cost of the steel and galvanizing are trivial. The cost of pouring
the lead is virtually the same, regardless of keel configuration. The
wildcard is cutting and fabrication. There are some indications that
this might not be crushingly expensive. Steel is a common material,
with lots of outfits that do this sort of work. Competition and
economies of scale tend to keep prices down. My best guess is that the
keel will cost half of what I originally budgeted for it.
Unfortunately, it looks like most of that saving will disappear into
the run up in plywood prices! :-(
YIBB,
David
the NW wind blows the tide out another foot that she'll ground gently
is a pretty big plus. But the real attraction for me is being able to
put (what promises to be) a high performance 60 foot schooner in my
back yard during the off season.
The cost of the steel and galvanizing are trivial. The cost of pouring
the lead is virtually the same, regardless of keel configuration. The
wildcard is cutting and fabrication. There are some indications that
this might not be crushingly expensive. Steel is a common material,
with lots of outfits that do this sort of work. Competition and
economies of scale tend to keep prices down. My best guess is that the
keel will cost half of what I originally budgeted for it.
Unfortunately, it looks like most of that saving will disappear into
the run up in plywood prices! :-(
YIBB,
David
On Wednesday, November 17, 2004, at 05:35 PM, Susan Davis wrote:
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
> wrote:
>>
>> I'm sure that the I60 Marching and Chowder Society is reading closely.
>
> Very.
>
>> I'm not a mechanic, so while I can see how it's supposed to work, I
>> wouldn't presume to offer suggestions for "improvements." I do
>> wonder though, whether it's really worth the trouble. After all,
>> what is the return on the effort?
>
> The ability to trailer the I60 in one trip. Also, the ability to run
> her up on the beach, dry out on a tidal flat for repairs, operate in
> shallow water at all, launch and recover in remote areas with no
> cranes, et cetera.
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
her up on the beach, dry out on a tidal flat for repairs, operate in
shallow water at all, launch and recover in remote areas with no
cranes, et cetera.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>Very.
> I'm sure that the I60 Marching and Chowder Society is reading closely.
> I'm not a mechanic, so while I can see how it's supposed to work, IThe ability to trailer the I60 in one trip. Also, the ability to run
> wouldn't presume to offer suggestions for "improvements." I do
> wonder though, whether it's really worth the trouble. After all,
> what is the return on the effort?
her up on the beach, dry out on a tidal flat for repairs, operate in
shallow water at all, launch and recover in remote areas with no
cranes, et cetera.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> My take on the second is that theYes, of course, but I am sure there are many
> keel could just be made deeper,
'trade off' issues, structural, draft, and ???
which PCB is balancing.
> or a solid keel could be hoisted vertically.No doubt PCB considered this option too.
I wonder if the 'gotcha' might be binding of
the heavy (3,000 lbs) board in the slot.
> I don't think that you could fit a double folded boat onto aThe point about folding is good. My take on the second is that the
> street legal trailer without also folding the keel.
> Neither would it be possible to hold that amount of sail on such
> a narrow long boat without heavy ballast located deep down.
keel could just be made deeper, or a solid keel could be hoisted
vertically.
>I do wonder though, whether it's really worth the trouble. After all,Isn't the main benefit that it makes possible a 60 foot long trailer sailer?
> what is the return on the effort?
> Peter
I don't think that you could fit a double folded boat onto a
street legal trailer without also folding the keel.
Neither would it be possible to hold that amount of sail on such
a narrow long boat without heavy ballast located deep down.
Kudos to Gary Blankenship and Duckworks for the long article on the
prototype retractable wing keel. I'm sure that the I60 Marching and
Chowder Society is reading closely.
I'm not a mechanic, so while I can see how it's supposed to work, I
wouldn't presume to offer suggestions for "improvements." I do
wonder though, whether it's really worth the trouble. After all,
what is the return on the effort?
The only return that I see is somewhat less draft in the "full down"
position than for an equivalent unfledged keel. How much less?
Probably a foot. I suppose the center of gravity would also shift
less in raising and lowering.
Opinions?
Peter
prototype retractable wing keel. I'm sure that the I60 Marching and
Chowder Society is reading closely.
I'm not a mechanic, so while I can see how it's supposed to work, I
wouldn't presume to offer suggestions for "improvements." I do
wonder though, whether it's really worth the trouble. After all,
what is the return on the effort?
The only return that I see is somewhat less draft in the "full down"
position than for an equivalent unfledged keel. How much less?
Probably a foot. I suppose the center of gravity would also shift
less in raising and lowering.
Opinions?
Peter