Re: Insolent 60 model
> It's not as convenient as a digital camera, but it's possible to useMy day job at Kodak was implementing the system that the store uses to
> an ordinary film camera, then have the film processed at a store
> where they will give you back the developed negatives plus a CD that
> has scans on it of the negatives. The resulting pictures are much
> clearer and sharper than those produced by cheaper digital cameras.
produce the files from film. The files on a Kodak PictureCD are at
4*base; those that my digital camera takes are 8*base, with twice the
information. And in any event, both ways give you JPEGs, not lossless
raw files.
(The raw files that the scanner produces are 16*base, or even better
on some of the new Noritsu scanners, but I'd need to be behind the
counter to get those files, and I don't know of a place that would let
me back there to do that.)
I'll drop by Garth's instead -- he has a real scanner, and it also has
the advantage of giving me a peek at the Cormorant. :-)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
It's not as convenient as a digital camera, but it's possible to use
an ordinary film camera, then have the film processed at a store
where they will give you back the developed negatives plus a CD that
has scans on it of the negatives. The resulting pictures are much
clearer and sharper than those produced by cheaper digital cameras.
One potential problem: the files are usu. in .jpg format. If the
scans are around the 1Mb size, there still should be plenty of fine
detail. Also, it's possible to use software to sharpen the picture
and increase contrast. Currently my computer's "wallpaper" is a pic.
made this way. Text less than 1/16" high on the screen looks pin-
sharp to me.
Howard
an ordinary film camera, then have the film processed at a store
where they will give you back the developed negatives plus a CD that
has scans on it of the negatives. The resulting pictures are much
clearer and sharper than those produced by cheaper digital cameras.
One potential problem: the files are usu. in .jpg format. If the
scans are around the 1Mb size, there still should be plenty of fine
detail. Also, it's possible to use software to sharpen the picture
and increase contrast. Currently my computer's "wallpaper" is a pic.
made this way. Text less than 1/16" high on the screen looks pin-
sharp to me.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Davis" <futabachan@y...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > > I don't think that the strut vangs are still
> > > there on the current draft.
> > > -- Sue --
> >
> > I agree, the image I have from the 'current draft' is sooo fuzzy
> > that my eyes hurt from studying it over and over! <g>
>
> Oh! That reminds me -- I need to scan the *current* current draft
to
> get it on the web for people's perusal. All I have is my digital
> camera, however, which will make the resulting image fuzzy, unless
> someone in driving distance has a large format scanner?
> I'm not in driving distance, but I'm in a day or two of postal transitActually, you *are* in driving distance of our temple in Palenville,
> (Halcottsville, NY).
NY, where we'll be Friday and Sunday, and again on the weekend of the
11th.
> I'll be away visitingWill you be getting home at some point on Sunday? We'll be stopping
> relatives from tomorrow through Sunday, but available anytime after
> that.
in Palenville on Sunday our way back from Amanda's folks, and staying
overnight. And we'll be out that way two weeks later, if not.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> Oh! That reminds me -- I need to scan the *current* current draft toHi Sue --
> get it on the web for people's perusal. All I have is my digital
> camera, however, which will make the resulting image fuzzy, unless
> someone in driving distance has a large format scanner?
>
I'm not in driving distance, but I'm in a day or two of postal transit
(Halcottsville, NY). I have an 11" x 17" scanner, and photo-stitching
software to join the sections of images larger than that. If you want,
you can mail me a plan sheet and I *promise* to return it ASAP (with
only barely noticeable drool marks). I can make a series of JPGs of
various sizes for you and group. Let me know. I'll be away visiting
relatives from tomorrow through Sunday, but available anytime after that.
All best,
Garth
> All I have is my digitalThere are a bunch of potential options, but one that comes
> camera, however, which will make the resulting image fuzzy, unless
> someone in driving distance has a large format scanner?
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
to the top would be to take the drawing to a local copy
shop, Kinko's for instance, and have it reduced in size.
Then scan it at home. You might want also to have them
laminate your original, or duplicate it, for a 'working copy',
to protect the original.
Also, be sure to save the scanned image in a 'lossless' format,
such as gif, or uncompressed jpg. My favorite for 'line drawings'
is a 'gif' with reduced number of colors, 16 or less, easy to read
and small. What ever you do, don't use a standard compressed
'jpg' (which works great for photos), but ruins text and line drawings.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
get it on the web for people's perusal. All I have is my digital
camera, however, which will make the resulting image fuzzy, unless
someone in driving distance has a large format scanner?
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> > I don't think that the strut vangs are stillOh! That reminds me -- I need to scan the *current* current draft to
> > there on the current draft.
> > -- Sue --
>
> I agree, the image I have from the 'current draft' is sooo fuzzy
> that my eyes hurt from studying it over and over! <g>
get it on the web for people's perusal. All I have is my digital
camera, however, which will make the resulting image fuzzy, unless
someone in driving distance has a large format scanner?
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> I'm concerned about that, too (and it was also one of my beefs aboutThe Breakdown Schooner deals with it in a very interesting way,
> the Breakdown Schooner),
which involves using the geometry of interlocking parts.
> I'm also not entirely clear on how we keepGood question. On the cartoon, there is a dashed line
> the forward cockpit from filling up with water.
which confuses me, which seems to indicate a large
hatch cover. That conflicts with the elevation view which
shows someone standing there.
http://hallman.org/bolger/Insolent60/I60f.gif
A couple of things:
To shed water Suzanne is working on a system of "fish-scale" panels
that will cover the front section, but can be stowed in a reasonably
small space.
I don't think the I60 was ever intended to be out in conditions that
would overwhelm the forward section. Scenarios for the fish-scale
scheme where thinks like ferry wakes, and other aberrations from the
overall condition. Modern weather forecasting and prudence are both key
elements in the I60 design.
YIBB,
David
To shed water Suzanne is working on a system of "fish-scale" panels
that will cover the front section, but can be stowed in a reasonably
small space.
I don't think the I60 was ever intended to be out in conditions that
would overwhelm the forward section. Scenarios for the fish-scale
scheme where thinks like ferry wakes, and other aberrations from the
overall condition. Modern weather forecasting and prudence are both key
elements in the I60 design.
YIBB,
David
On Wednesday, November 24, 2004, at 11:13 AM, Susan Davis wrote:
>
>
> Bruce Hallman:
>> What I was seeing was that in a pitching sea, at times the buoyancy
>> force of several thousand pound would be pushing up on the fairing
>> hulls, and their hinge/latch mechanisms, [plus the wood to which these
>> hardware items would connect], would receive some major stressing.
>
> I'm concerned about that, too (and it was also one of my beefs about
> the Breakdown Schooner), and I'll be interested to see how Phil and
> Suzanne solve the problem. I'm also not entirely clear on how we keep
> the forward cockpit from filling up with water.
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't think that the strut vangs are stillI agree, the image I have from the 'current draft' is sooo fuzzy
> there on the current draft.
> -- Sue --
that my eyes hurt from studying it over and over! <g>
Bruce Hallman:
the Breakdown Schooner), and I'll be interested to see how Phil and
Suzanne solve the problem. I'm also not entirely clear on how we keep
the forward cockpit from filling up with water.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> What I was seeing was that in a pitching sea, at times the buoyancyI'm concerned about that, too (and it was also one of my beefs about
> force of several thousand pound would be pushing up on the fairing
> hulls, and their hinge/latch mechanisms, [plus the wood to which these
> hardware items would connect], would receive some major stressing.
the Breakdown Schooner), and I'll be interested to see how Phil and
Suzanne solve the problem. I'm also not entirely clear on how we keep
the forward cockpit from filling up with water.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
-- Sue --
(I60 CAN-2)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> Insolent 60, I want one!The Insolent 60 Class Association is recruiting new owners, y'know.... :-)
-- Sue --
(I60 CAN-2)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
about the project) is based on the cartoon, not on the draft plans
that we currently have. I don't think that the strut vangs are still
there on the current draft.
-- Sue --
(who had just assumed that those were running backstays, actually)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
> Struts? Are you sure? I'm going to have to dig out my drawings andThe model (which looks fabulous, Bruce, and makes me really excited
> look again.
about the project) is based on the cartoon, not on the draft plans
that we currently have. I don't think that the strut vangs are still
there on the current draft.
-- Sue --
(who had just assumed that those were running backstays, actually)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Hi Howard --
I was imagining 5 plies of equal thickness. But the fairing is
something I hadn't thought about -- you do lose a lot of that outer ply.
In any case, yes, the general idea is as you say -- keep your best
strength running down the length of the board.
All best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
I was imagining 5 plies of equal thickness. But the fairing is
something I hadn't thought about -- you do lose a lot of that outer ply.
In any case, yes, the general idea is as you say -- keep your best
strength running down the length of the board.
All best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
>
> Just to clarify what I think you mean: "lengthwise" meaning fore and
> aft, rather than down the length of the board. There's almost no
> strength in the outer veneers because they are so thin; and often
> most of what timber there is disappears as the fin/rudder is faired
> to a proper hydrofoil shape. Because of its position, the central
> veneer provides little resistance to bending.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
>
> > -- but anyway -- watch that
> > grain orientation. If you have 5-ply, run the 3 plies lengthwise,
> >etc.
Just to clarify what I think you mean: "lengthwise" meaning fore and
aft, rather than down the length of the board. There's almost no
strength in the outer veneers because they are so thin; and often
most of what timber there is disappears as the fin/rudder is faired
to a proper hydrofoil shape. Because of its position, the central
veneer provides little resistance to bending.
Howard
aft, rather than down the length of the board. There's almost no
strength in the outer veneers because they are so thin; and often
most of what timber there is disappears as the fin/rudder is faired
to a proper hydrofoil shape. Because of its position, the central
veneer provides little resistance to bending.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "GarthAB" <garth@b...> wrote:
> -- but anyway -- watch that
> grain orientation. If you have 5-ply, run the 3 plies lengthwise,
>etc.
> But I wonder whether doubled 1/4" would be strong enough for a boatOn my very first boat, a Windsprint, I made the daggerboard out of
> this size. Anyone know of problems with these boards breaking?
doubled 1/4", running that lovely luan mahogany grain lengthwise down
the board outside and in. Boy, it looked good! And of course the much
thicker inner plies ran crosswise. And on its maiden voyage, we lifted
on a swell, slide sideways, and heard a strange SNAP. The boat still
pointed fairly well, digging in the chine -- but anyway -- watch that
grain orientation. If you have 5-ply, run the 3 plies lengthwise, etc.
For Cormorant, I'm avoiding ply for my (2' x 7') leeboard altogether.
I'm going with 1 1/2" doug fir, glassed over.
All best,
Garth
Struts? Are you sure? I'm going to have to dig out my drawings and look
again.
-D
again.
-D
On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 05:16 PM, Howard Stephenson wrote:
>
>
> Assuming they're struts running from the mast above the gooseneck to
> the boom, I'd call them compression vangs. The name is my invention,
> based on the name of a similar fitting used in model yachts.
>
> Howard
>
> -- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...>
>> Plus, I noticed for the first time that the booms are held down
>> with struts, instead of vangs. Is there a name for that strut?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Assuming they're struts running from the mast above the gooseneck to
the boom, I'd call them compression vangs. The name is my invention,
based on the name of a similar fitting used in model yachts.
Howard
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...>
the boom, I'd call them compression vangs. The name is my invention,
based on the name of a similar fitting used in model yachts.
Howard
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...>
> Plus, I noticed for the first time that the booms are held down
> with struts, instead of vangs. Is there a name for that strut?
The I60 rig is also similar to that of FS.
The Group has been discussing leeboards, bilgeboards, daggerboards
etc. Until I looked at the drawing again just now, I'd forgotten a
detail of the FS: it uses twin daggerboards, running inside cases
built into the flared sides of the hull, so they cant inward at the
bottom by about 10 deg. As they're outboard of the mainmast, they
would not foul a boom vang when they are fully up.
Bolger specifies double 1/4" ply for the boards. He says this is
better than using 1/2" for two reasons: 1) starting with thinner
material will reduce the chance of there being unnoticed voids; and
2) the central glueline provides a reference point for fairing.
Great minds think alike: last week I made a fin for a model yacht in
the same way, for the same reasons. I doubled cheap 4mm construction-
grade ply, confident that any voids would be visible. No doubt my
idea came from a subconscious memory of having seen it does this way
before, or reading Bolger.
But I wonder whether doubled 1/4" would be strong enough for a boat
this size. Anyone know of problems with these boards breaking?
Howard
The Group has been discussing leeboards, bilgeboards, daggerboards
etc. Until I looked at the drawing again just now, I'd forgotten a
detail of the FS: it uses twin daggerboards, running inside cases
built into the flared sides of the hull, so they cant inward at the
bottom by about 10 deg. As they're outboard of the mainmast, they
would not foul a boom vang when they are fully up.
Bolger specifies double 1/4" ply for the boards. He says this is
better than using 1/2" for two reasons: 1) starting with thinner
material will reduce the chance of there being unnoticed voids; and
2) the central glueline provides a reference point for fairing.
Great minds think alike: last week I made a fin for a model yacht in
the same way, for the same reasons. I doubled cheap 4mm construction-
grade ply, confident that any voids would be visible. No doubt my
idea came from a subconscious memory of having seen it does this way
before, or reading Bolger.
But I wonder whether doubled 1/4" would be strong enough for a boat
this size. Anyone know of problems with these boards breaking?
Howard
> This part of the design is not trivial. I too am looking forward toI don't think TIMS "C-clamps" would do it. <g>
> seeing the details!
> David
A couple other things I noticed is that the 'redesigned' rudder
is *much* simpler than the orginal, eliminating all the linkage.
The model is of the orginal version.
Also, if my eyes aren't playing tricks, the length of the swinging
keel is reduced in the more recent version.
Looking close at the fuzzy picture of the latest version I see that the
hinges are different and handrail bracing is gone.
Plus, I noticed for the first time that the booms are held down
with struts, instead of vangs. Is there a name for that strut?
> Now if I can just find a steel fabricator with aAnyone have the cast list for "Junkyard Wars"?
> similarly generous disposition!
Bruce, kudos for the model.
Bolger has designed several multi-piece boats that have been built.
Folding Schooner, Triad, Breakdown Schooner. The only one that had
trouble with the connections, as far as I know, was the Folding
Schooner, and he designed that for himself as a sort of lark.
He started without any latches at all. I sailed Leander's on its
maiden voyage without any latches. It was....interesting. Leander
reports that the latches increase speed noticeably.
Peter
This part of the design is not trivial. I too am looking forward to
seeing the details!
BTW: My daughter's schoolmate's father owns some commercial property on
Lake Montauk. Quite out of the blue he offered use of his yard as a
fabrication and assembly area for the I60.
Now if I can just find a steel fabricator with a similarly generous
disposition!
-D
seeing the details!
BTW: My daughter's schoolmate's father owns some commercial property on
Lake Montauk. Quite out of the blue he offered use of his yard as a
fabrication and assembly area for the I60.
Now if I can just find a steel fabricator with a similarly generous
disposition!
-D
On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 04:05 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> What I was seeing was that in a pitching sea, at times the buoyancy
> force
> of several thousand pound would be pushing up on the fairing hulls,
> and their hinge/latch mechanisms, [plus the wood to which these
> hardware items would
> connect], would receive some major stressing. I am curious about
> Bolger's
> detailing, especially of the latch. You may recall that his initial
> latch for
> Folding Schooner needed to be upgraded, I presume he learned something
> and will be conservative.
, David Ryan <david@...> wrote:
that seems light. I figured the FS displacement through a thumbnail
calculation of her waterline as PCB drew it, my calcs, upon a closer look
were wrong. Re-calculating it, FS displaces about 500 lbs for each
inch of water and 2,000 lbs seems about what PCB intended.
In any case, I60 has much more displacement of a Folding Schooner.
I agree about the I60 mast, sail, keel being grounded on the center hull.
What I was seeing was that in a pitching sea, at times the buoyancy force
of several thousand pound would be pushing up on the fairing hulls,
and their hinge/latch mechanisms, [plus the wood to which these
hardware items would
connect], would receive some major stressing. I am curious about Bolger's
detailing, especially of the latch. You may recall that his initial latch for
Folding Schooner needed to be upgraded, I presume he learned something
and will be conservative.
>Fair enough, the initial MAIB article lists I60 at 7000 lbs, but I agree
> The displacement of the Light Schooner is probably closer to 1000 lbs
> with minimal crew, and 2000 isn't too much.
>
> The I60 is in the 10K-12K range. I think the drawing I have shows her
> at 11K and change under a cruising load.
>
> The heavy forces (masts, big sails, keel) are tied into the center
> hull, the exception being jib and forestaysail.
>
> -D
that seems light. I figured the FS displacement through a thumbnail
calculation of her waterline as PCB drew it, my calcs, upon a closer look
were wrong. Re-calculating it, FS displaces about 500 lbs for each
inch of water and 2,000 lbs seems about what PCB intended.
In any case, I60 has much more displacement of a Folding Schooner.
I agree about the I60 mast, sail, keel being grounded on the center hull.
What I was seeing was that in a pitching sea, at times the buoyancy force
of several thousand pound would be pushing up on the fairing hulls,
and their hinge/latch mechanisms, [plus the wood to which these
hardware items would
connect], would receive some major stressing. I am curious about Bolger's
detailing, especially of the latch. You may recall that his initial latch for
Folding Schooner needed to be upgraded, I presume he learned something
and will be conservative.
The displacement of the Light Schooner is probably closer to 1000 lbs
with minimal crew, and 2000 isn't too much.
The I60 is in the 10K-12K range. I think the drawing I have shows her
at 11K and change under a cruising load.
The heavy forces (masts, big sails, keel) are tied into the center
hull, the exception being jib and forestaysail.
-D
with minimal crew, and 2000 isn't too much.
The I60 is in the 10K-12K range. I think the drawing I have shows her
at 11K and change under a cruising load.
The heavy forces (masts, big sails, keel) are tied into the center
hull, the exception being jib and forestaysail.
-D
On Tuesday, November 23, 2004, at 01:02 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
>>>http://community.webshots.com/album/221306946fiFZXI
>> Much like a scaled-up Folding Schooner, isn't it?
>>
>> Howard
>
> Yes, sort of, but it is *so* much bigger.
>
> I am guessing Folding Schooner has a displacement of ~700 lbs
> and Insolent 60 displaces 7,000 lbs.
>
> It is tempting to think of I60 as a 30'x8'x'6' box with two 15 foot
> skiff 'fairings' on each end; it *is* that in a way. But I am trying
> to imagine the forces on the folding connection points to the
> fairings, and they must be substantial. I would like to see the
> detailing of the hinges. Notice that the handrails of the boat
> both fore and aft connect to the top of the hinges, and I conclude
> that the handrails also serve as structural elements supporting the
> hinge pivot points.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://community.webshots.com/album/221306946fiFZXIYes, sort of, but it is *so* much bigger.
> Much like a scaled-up Folding Schooner, isn't it?
>
> Howard
I am guessing Folding Schooner has a displacement of ~700 lbs
and Insolent 60 displaces 7,000 lbs.
It is tempting to think of I60 as a 30'x8'x'6' box with two 15 foot
skiff 'fairings' on each end; it *is* that in a way. But I am trying
to imagine the forces on the folding connection points to the
fairings, and they must be substantial. I would like to see the
detailing of the hinges. Notice that the handrails of the boat
both fore and aft connect to the top of the hinges, and I conclude
that the handrails also serve as structural elements supporting the
hinge pivot points.
Much like a scaled-up Folding Schooner, isn't it?
Howard
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> Insolent 60, I want one!
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/221306946fiFZXI
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
relatively small materials costs). That's certainly what rustles MY
bustle!
possible for a reasonably handy person to create something that is
very valuable in time and effort. We may not have the fully equipped
shop with all the professional equipment and overhead that a
professional boatbuilder requires to complete the job in an effecient
fashion. I greatly respect Duckworks.
However, my point is that we need not denigrate the efforts of
professonal builders who are only asking for a living wage at the end
of the day.
Down the next block from the garage, there is a small business that
builds houses at the rate of about one every two weeks and they get
shipped to the USA as fast as they can build them, about $50,000 CDN
each. It is a very successful business since we are close to the
market, our building standards are higher and the Canuck $ is lower.
None of the carpenters has the skill of even a mediocre boat builder!
Boatbuilding is as much art as craftsmanship. Therin lies its
attraction and it's pain!
Cheers, Nels
> At the end of the day, though, many of us in this group prefer topay for our boats with our own time and labour (on top of the
relatively small materials costs). That's certainly what rustles MY
bustle!
>kayak. Mmmmmm!)
> Bill (Just finished scarfing some almost edible okume ply for a new
>I couldn't agree with you more Bill. Backyard buildng makes it
possible for a reasonably handy person to create something that is
very valuable in time and effort. We may not have the fully equipped
shop with all the professional equipment and overhead that a
professional boatbuilder requires to complete the job in an effecient
fashion. I greatly respect Duckworks.
However, my point is that we need not denigrate the efforts of
professonal builders who are only asking for a living wage at the end
of the day.
Down the next block from the garage, there is a small business that
builds houses at the rate of about one every two weeks and they get
shipped to the USA as fast as they can build them, about $50,000 CDN
each. It is a very successful business since we are close to the
market, our building standards are higher and the Canuck $ is lower.
None of the carpenters has the skill of even a mediocre boat builder!
Boatbuilding is as much art as craftsmanship. Therin lies its
attraction and it's pain!
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
with no bites. He reduced the price to $8000 and sold it to someone
site unseen within five weeks. Seems to me thats a reasonable price
for a good second hand boat if one does not have the inclination to
build a boat. For $20,000 in Aus you can get a very good second
hand "plastic" boat with the works that is faster, points better and
is more comfortable than the Micro,
Cheers,
John Mann (Sydney Australia)
People might say "easy come, easy go" Trouble is I never did master
the first part of that :-< OOPS! That sounds vulgar. It's money
I'm talking about!
mostly in terms of bangs per buck. OOPS! There I go again . . .
relatively small materials costs). That's certainly what rustles MY
bustle!
> Some chap I contacted recently had a Micro for sale with DuckFlat advertised (for $13000) and it was on the market for months
with no bites. He reduced the price to $8000 and sold it to someone
site unseen within five weeks. Seems to me thats a reasonable price
for a good second hand boat if one does not have the inclination to
build a boat. For $20,000 in Aus you can get a very good second
hand "plastic" boat with the works that is faster, points better and
is more comfortable than the Micro,
Cheers,
John Mann (Sydney Australia)
People might say "easy come, easy go" Trouble is I never did master
the first part of that :-< OOPS! That sounds vulgar. It's money
I'm talking about!
>otherwise) earned money on what they want, though I tend to think
> Well, I suppose people are entitled to spend their hard (or
mostly in terms of bangs per buck. OOPS! There I go again . . .
>pay for our boats with our own time and labour (on top of the
> At the end of the day, though, many of us in this group prefer to
relatively small materials costs). That's certainly what rustles MY
bustle!
>new kayak. Mmmmmm!)
> Bill (Just finished scarfing some almost edible okume ply for a
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peter Lenihan wrote:
For all that you're an "Aw, schucks, twarn't me and while you're there
hand me another brew." kind of guy, I've actually seen your workmanship
on both Lestat and on Windemere.
If I were to go to a builder and demand the same quality that you put
into the first and are putting into the second and he didn't charge at
least $28,000 for a copy of Lestat I'd be very suspicious of any price
that he did quote me.
Jim Pope
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Hey Peter,
>
>
> Holy yumpin' yiminy! and ta think I let mine go for what would
> amount to the sales tax on this one!
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>
>
For all that you're an "Aw, schucks, twarn't me and while you're there
hand me another brew." kind of guy, I've actually seen your workmanship
on both Lestat and on Windemere.
If I were to go to a builder and demand the same quality that you put
into the first and are putting into the second and he didn't charge at
least $28,000 for a copy of Lestat I'd be very suspicious of any price
that he did quote me.
Jim Pope
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
People might say "easy come, easy go" Trouble is I never did master the first part of that :-< OOPS! That sounds vulgar. It's money I'm talking about!
Well, I suppose people are entitled to spend their hard (or otherwise) earned money on what they want, though I tend to think mostly in terms of bangs per buck. OOPS! There I go again . . .
At the end of the day, though, many of us in this group prefer to pay for our boats with our own time and labour (on top of the relatively small materials costs). That's certainly what rustles MY bustle!
Bill (Just finished scarfing some almost edible okume ply for a new kayak. Mmmmmm!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Well, I suppose people are entitled to spend their hard (or otherwise) earned money on what they want, though I tend to think mostly in terms of bangs per buck. OOPS! There I go again . . .
At the end of the day, though, many of us in this group prefer to pay for our boats with our own time and labour (on top of the relatively small materials costs). That's certainly what rustles MY bustle!
Bill (Just finished scarfing some almost edible okume ply for a new kayak. Mmmmmm!)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@h...>
wrote:
is my independant shop in the cty that charges $65/hour. His lease
rates for the building is three times higher as well. The Chev/Olds
dealership charges $100/hour and they charged me 1 hours labour to
remove and replace the doghouse inside my van. It cost $360 to change
the thermostat when it quit. That is because there are two, so you
have to change them both, you need special tools to get at them, and
you have to remove the doghouse!
Jason, just give you Subaru dealership a call and you can find out
what it charges for comparison. Of course the mechanic won't get paid
that much per hour.
My lawyer charges $200/hr and does nothing but have his assistant run
off some forms on the computer and have me sign them!
Did you hear they are planning to use lawyers for lab experiments
instead of rats?
400 hours is only 10 40 - hour weeks or two and half months.
I have a wood and canvas canoe that is sold at about about $2000 USD
these days. The two builders work on a producton line basis building
several at a time. They estimated it took them 65 hours to build mine!
It is authentic right down to the lead filled canvas. I asked them f
they also restore old canoes to which the younger one replied. "You
mean fixing junk? Yes we do some of that as well."
If anyone is exterested in these canoes, the history is available
here:
http://www.wcha.org/wcj/v21_n2/chestnut.html
starting at:
The only original wood and canvas forms still used in regular
production belong to Cedarwood Canoes of Keswick, New Brunswick.
Cedarwood manufacture eight models including the famous Ogilvy
fishing canoes. Although production is limited to an average of 80
canoes a year, Cedarwood enjoys a world wide reputation. They have
shipped canoes to Germany. Norway, England, and Japan in
They ship the canoes packed in straw and plastic wrap:-)
Cheers
wrote:
>Sorry, I made a mistake. My local mechanic only charges $50/hour. It
> Damn, am i worth $65/ hour.....the university is shafting me for
> sure!
>
is my independant shop in the cty that charges $65/hour. His lease
rates for the building is three times higher as well. The Chev/Olds
dealership charges $100/hour and they charged me 1 hours labour to
remove and replace the doghouse inside my van. It cost $360 to change
the thermostat when it quit. That is because there are two, so you
have to change them both, you need special tools to get at them, and
you have to remove the doghouse!
Jason, just give you Subaru dealership a call and you can find out
what it charges for comparison. Of course the mechanic won't get paid
that much per hour.
My lawyer charges $200/hr and does nothing but have his assistant run
off some forms on the computer and have me sign them!
Did you hear they are planning to use lawyers for lab experiments
instead of rats?
400 hours is only 10 40 - hour weeks or two and half months.
I have a wood and canvas canoe that is sold at about about $2000 USD
these days. The two builders work on a producton line basis building
several at a time. They estimated it took them 65 hours to build mine!
It is authentic right down to the lead filled canvas. I asked them f
they also restore old canoes to which the younger one replied. "You
mean fixing junk? Yes we do some of that as well."
If anyone is exterested in these canoes, the history is available
here:
http://www.wcha.org/wcj/v21_n2/chestnut.html
starting at:
The only original wood and canvas forms still used in regular
production belong to Cedarwood Canoes of Keswick, New Brunswick.
Cedarwood manufacture eight models including the famous Ogilvy
fishing canoes. Although production is limited to an average of 80
canoes a year, Cedarwood enjoys a world wide reputation. They have
shipped canoes to Germany. Norway, England, and Japan in
They ship the canoes packed in straw and plastic wrap:-)
Cheers
My local independant garage mechanic charges $65/hr. These expenses
sure!
I believe there is close to
well done, still i don't think i'm near 400 hours unless i count the
time i sat there staring at the hulk with my thumb in my arse while
trying to deside what to do next, what i should have done and what i
can do to fix what i just screwed up. I could build a second
equivilent and definately better navigator for 150-200 hours the
second time around. I almost know what i'm doing now but who's
racing ;)
Jason.........hmmm how many hours in an AS29?
> include all the costs, and expenses for the building and all hisDamn, am i worth $65/ hour.....the university is shafting me for
> equipment as well as his expertise.
sure!
I believe there is close to
> 400 hours or so in Lestat.I know lestat is far nicer than my micro, cheers to peter for a job
well done, still i don't think i'm near 400 hours unless i count the
time i sat there staring at the hulk with my thumb in my arse while
trying to deside what to do next, what i should have done and what i
can do to fix what i just screwed up. I could build a second
equivilent and definately better navigator for 150-200 hours the
second time around. I almost know what i'm doing now but who's
racing ;)
Jason.........hmmm how many hours in an AS29?
The sad reality is, that your boatbuilders wages are only worth what
the market will pay for the boat. (unless you are a charitable
organization)
If people will pay the mechanic 65/hr, so be it.
DonB
the market will pay for the boat. (unless you are a charitable
organization)
If people will pay the mechanic 65/hr, so be it.
DonB
> My local independant garage mechanic charges $65/hr. These expenses
> include all the costs, and expenses for the building and all his
> equipment as well as his expertise. His shop is barely big enough to
> build or hold anything more than twenty feet long.
>
> How many hours does it take to build a Micro, with all the painting
> sandng, spar, sail and lead keel making? I believe there is close to
> 400 hours or so in Lestat. Simple math makes it $26,000 for labor
> alone. Unless of course we feel that a professional boat builder is
> not worth what a small town auto mechanic is.
>
> Cheers, Nels
Perhaps the labor is $26,000 for a new boat. But the fact is, this is
a six year old boat, the original builder is brokering the boat with
an asking price of "only" $13,000. This other site is asking $28,000,
with $15,000 as a referral fee!
a six year old boat, the original builder is brokering the boat with
an asking price of "only" $13,000. This other site is asking $28,000,
with $15,000 as a referral fee!
> I believe there is close to
> 400 hours or so in Lestat. Simple math makes it $26,000 for labor
> alone. Unless of course we feel that a professional boat builder is
> not worth what a small town auto mechanic is.
>
> Cheers, Nels
This sort of reminds me of my school bus driving job. As tough as it is, and
high as the standards are (no less than 5 agencies check your record, for
anything) the pay is poverty-poor and the level of respect you get is nil.
Yet some folks do it out of dedication !!
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-society
SoyOS and eLSD distros; Thinman Model ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/
Distro Readme ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/eLSD/readme
ThinMan is a registered trademark of CXN, Inc
__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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high as the standards are (no less than 5 agencies check your record, for
anything) the pay is poverty-poor and the level of respect you get is nil.
Yet some folks do it out of dedication !!
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
>=====
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> >
> > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > DonB
> >
> >http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10841536/Yacht_Bolger_Micro.html
>
> My local independant garage mechanic charges $65/hr. These expenses
> include all the costs, and expenses for the building and all his
> equipment as well as his expertise. His shop is barely big enough to
> build or hold anything more than twenty feet long.
>
> How many hours does it take to build a Micro, with all the painting
> sandng, spar, sail and lead keel making? I believe there is close to
> 400 hours or so in Lestat. Simple math makes it $26,000 for labor
> alone. Unless of course we feel that a professional boat builder is
> not worth what a small town auto mechanic is.
>
> Cheers, Nels
>
>
>
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-society
SoyOS and eLSD distros; Thinman Model ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/
Distro Readme ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/eLSD/readme
ThinMan is a registered trademark of CXN, Inc
__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
include all the costs, and expenses for the building and all his
equipment as well as his expertise. His shop is barely big enough to
build or hold anything more than twenty feet long.
How many hours does it take to build a Micro, with all the painting
sandng, spar, sail and lead keel making? I believe there is close to
400 hours or so in Lestat. Simple math makes it $26,000 for labor
alone. Unless of course we feel that a professional boat builder is
not worth what a small town auto mechanic is.
Cheers, Nels
>My local independant garage mechanic charges $65/hr. These expenses
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> DonB
>
>http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10841536/Yacht_Bolger_Micro.html
include all the costs, and expenses for the building and all his
equipment as well as his expertise. His shop is barely big enough to
build or hold anything more than twenty feet long.
How many hours does it take to build a Micro, with all the painting
sandng, spar, sail and lead keel making? I believe there is close to
400 hours or so in Lestat. Simple math makes it $26,000 for labor
alone. Unless of course we feel that a professional boat builder is
not worth what a small town auto mechanic is.
Cheers, Nels
With a difference of $15,000 between 2 sites for the same boat, it
seems more like 'Pong' than 'Ping' to me.
DonB
seems more like 'Pong' than 'Ping' to me.
DonB
> This boat is "Ping pong" and the asking price is $13,000 AUS. I
> thought that was expensive. I guess this site expects more than double
> to act as a referral service?
>
> Real site is here:
>http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
>
> Paul
>
> >http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10841536/Yacht_Bolger_Micro.html
This boat is "Ping pong" and the asking price is $13,000 AUS. I
thought that was expensive. I guess this site expects more than double
to act as a referral service?
Real site is here:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
Paul
thought that was expensive. I guess this site expects more than double
to act as a referral service?
Real site is here:
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale.php
Paul
>http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10841536/Yacht_Bolger_Micro.html
I agree, in the world of real money, its probably even worth it.
A "Brick" for 10K would certainly be worth it if it had all the ammenities of,
say, a really nice camp trailer, which is what it is in effect.
But boat folks live in a lower economy, we get paid in pure joy. I think part
of the boating lure is the closeness of community. If you go to the fishing
villages of Labrador, you will find people who try to keep you there, if they
like you.
Most of society is "exclusive" -- meaning it rejects you unless, of course, you
ooze money.
I love the closeness fishing communities, I think much of it comes from
self-reliance because the coast guard isnt always around, and isnt always
wanted !!
This is why I like the idea of metal bolger boats, I think it would lend more
to community, and saftey.
---cha62759@...wrote:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-society
SoyOS and eLSD distros; Thinman Model ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/
Distro Readme ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/eLSD/readme
ThinMan is a registered trademark of CXN, Inc
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
A "Brick" for 10K would certainly be worth it if it had all the ammenities of,
say, a really nice camp trailer, which is what it is in effect.
But boat folks live in a lower economy, we get paid in pure joy. I think part
of the boating lure is the closeness of community. If you go to the fishing
villages of Labrador, you will find people who try to keep you there, if they
like you.
Most of society is "exclusive" -- meaning it rejects you unless, of course, you
ooze money.
I love the closeness fishing communities, I think much of it comes from
self-reliance because the coast guard isnt always around, and isnt always
wanted !!
This is why I like the idea of metal bolger boats, I think it would lend more
to community, and saftey.
---cha62759@...wrote:
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The Australian dollar is currently at $.78 US. That comes to just
> short of $22,000 US. If you were a professional what would YOU want
> for a Micro you built? I am building a Camp Skiff which will probably
> cost me$3,000 to $4,000. I would be lucky to sell it for $7,500. A
> professionally built "Redwing" which is the development of "Camp
> Skiff" is for sale somewhere in the twentys.
>
> We are too quick to discount our own labors but professionals are not.
> Someone will buy that Micro and at close to the asking price. The
> professionally built boat has a cachet that our amateur boats do not,
> no matter how well they are actually done.
>
> If you were not inclined to build a boat; if you had the money; if you
> wanted a "Micro" of known quality you would pay the price. Bolger
> boats are professionally built and buyers pay the price.
> Bob Chamberland
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> > AFAIK Aussie dollars are worth about 50 or 60 US cents. Is that
> right, people from the land of Oz?
> >
> > Even so, that's one expensive Micro! The proof will come if
> somebody's actually willing to pay that much, or whether the seller is
> hoping for somebody with more money than sense to pay the asking price.
> >
> > Bill
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Aaron Arguien
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:16 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: $28,000 Micro!
> >
> >
> >
> > Are you sure those are dollars?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> > Yahoo! Groups Links=====
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-society
SoyOS and eLSD distros; Thinman Model ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/
Distro Readme ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/eLSD/readme
ThinMan is a registered trademark of CXN, Inc
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
The Australian dollar is currently at $.78 US. That comes to just
short of $22,000 US. If you were a professional what would YOU want
for a Micro you built? I am building a Camp Skiff which will probably
cost me$3,000 to $4,000. I would be lucky to sell it for $7,500. A
professionally built "Redwing" which is the development of "Camp
Skiff" is for sale somewhere in the twentys.
We are too quick to discount our own labors but professionals are not.
Someone will buy that Micro and at close to the asking price. The
professionally built boat has a cachet that our amateur boats do not,
no matter how well they are actually done.
If you were not inclined to build a boat; if you had the money; if you
wanted a "Micro" of known quality you would pay the price. Bolger
boats are professionally built and buyers pay the price.
Bob Chamberland
short of $22,000 US. If you were a professional what would YOU want
for a Micro you built? I am building a Camp Skiff which will probably
cost me$3,000 to $4,000. I would be lucky to sell it for $7,500. A
professionally built "Redwing" which is the development of "Camp
Skiff" is for sale somewhere in the twentys.
We are too quick to discount our own labors but professionals are not.
Someone will buy that Micro and at close to the asking price. The
professionally built boat has a cachet that our amateur boats do not,
no matter how well they are actually done.
If you were not inclined to build a boat; if you had the money; if you
wanted a "Micro" of known quality you would pay the price. Bolger
boats are professionally built and buyers pay the price.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> AFAIK Aussie dollars are worth about 50 or 60 US cents. Is that
right, people from the land of Oz?
>
> Even so, that's one expensive Micro! The proof will come if
somebody's actually willing to pay that much, or whether the seller is
hoping for somebody with more money than sense to pay the asking price.
>
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Aaron Arguien
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:16 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: $28,000 Micro!
>
>
>
> Are you sure those are dollars?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
AFAIK Aussie dollars are worth about 50 or 60 US cents. Is that right, people from the land of Oz?
Even so, that's one expensive Micro! The proof will come if somebody's actually willing to pay that much, or whether the seller is hoping for somebody with more money than sense to pay the asking price.
Bill
Even so, that's one expensive Micro! The proof will come if somebody's actually willing to pay that much, or whether the seller is hoping for somebody with more money than sense to pay the asking price.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron Arguien
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: $28,000 Micro!
Are you sure those are dollars?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are you sure those are dollars?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
amount to the sales tax on this one!
Peter Lenihan
>Holy yumpin' yiminy! and ta think I let mine go for what would
> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> DonB
>
>http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10841536/Yacht_Bolger_Micro.html
amount to the sales tax on this one!
Peter Lenihan
> And the next thing ya know there'll be a "Brick" for only $10,000.Where ??
=====
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/linux-society
SoyOS and eLSD distros; Thinman Model ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/
Distro Readme ->http://thinman.no-ip.com/eLSD/readme
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With the current exchange rate it works out to be $21,932.40 U.S.
funds. Would he cut the price if I bought two?
funds. Would he cut the price if I bought two?
And the next thing ya know there'll be a "Brick" for only $10,000.
Ron Fossum
Ron Fossum
----- Original Message -----
From: dbaldnz
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 2:38 PM
Subject: [bolger] $28,000 Micro!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DonB
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10841536/Yacht_Bolger_Micro.html
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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