Re: [bolger] jessie Cooper Inox/Alloy etc
Black Skimmer?
Did you used to own one, sail in a friends? You got pixs?
HJ
loosemoosefilmworks wrote:
Did you used to own one, sail in a friends? You got pixs?
HJ
loosemoosefilmworks wrote:
>Funny how you read things...I have a full collection of Phils writing and I find
>generally that he is one of the first persons to point out flaws in his designs if ever so
>small. The fact is that with loose Moose and Loose Moose 2 the first thing eveyone
>asked about was the noise at anchor so the subject must come up with Phil very often
>and he's found his rap on the subject but the tone I was objecting to was that it was
>so awful that it was a problem that had to be dealt with...It's not and most current
>production boats in thin fiberglass with big sugar scoop sterns are much noiser at
>anchor than any of Phil's boats I have personal experience with (Jessie
>Cooper,Micro,Loose Moose,Black Skimmer).
>
>
>
> Perhaps the ones I requested where not a part of your experience?The dagger board was not a problem and neither my wife or I had problems raising or
> These were quoted by Bolger as:
>
> "... other weaknesses, not as easily corrected."
>
> 1. - Heavy daggerboard handling in shallow water?
lowering and we used iroko which is a very heavy wood. One thoing we liked about
the dagger board is that you could park the boat in shallow water by just lowering it.
The other thing the geometry of the shape makes it pop up if ever you hit something
(we once hit a renault R16 that someone had popped in a canal and it just popped
up!)
>Mast was easily carried by two people but took a bridge/crane or another boat to
> 2. - Handling the mast?
step/unstep.
>Plenty of room in the cockpit and no way to gain enough room to add berths inside
> 3. - Bedding guests
though (but that is clear from the plans...
>This was actually an advantage as we had the rudder and motor connected by a rop
> 4. - Motor and rudder sharing the same transom?
so the motor turned with the rudder (we could turn on a centime!) Plenty of room in
the well by the way to start the motor deploy anchors etc in perfect safety.
>It is NOT a trailer sailer but it is a trailerable boat in that youy can get from one place
> 5. - and my own concern: - Trailerability?
to another but it is not light.
>
> Thanks, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@y...> wrote:
These were quoted by Bolger as:
"... other weaknesses, not as easily corrected."
1. - Heavy daggerboard handling in shallow water?
2. - Handling the mast?
3. - Bedding guests
4. - Motor and rudder sharing the same transom?
5. - and my own concern: - Trailerability?
Thanks, Nels
<loosemoosefilmworks@y...> wrote:
> Anyway hope that answered the questions...Perhaps the ones I requested where not a part of your experience?
>
> Bob
These were quoted by Bolger as:
"... other weaknesses, not as easily corrected."
1. - Heavy daggerboard handling in shallow water?
2. - Handling the mast?
3. - Bedding guests
4. - Motor and rudder sharing the same transom?
5. - and my own concern: - Trailerability?
Thanks, Nels
> It's not and most currentJust to speak a bit for the other side of the argument, my Cynthia J.
> production boats in thin fiberglass with big sugar scoop
> sterns are much noiser at
> anchor than any of Phil's boats...
catboat made noise at the bow all the time. Now and then, it would
slam with a great shudder. I was amazed when I sailed on my father's
Columbia 23 (Payne design) because it drove into waves so very
quietly compared to the CJ. I think the problem may have been
exaserbated by the fact that I usually sailed in light breezes with
two aboard. The boat stay quite upright. She was best to windward
with three aboard in a good breeze.
The CJ's structure is quite light compared to the bigger boats.
Perhps it's a better sounding board.
Peter
Funny how you read things...I have a full collection of Phils writing and I find
generally that he is one of the first persons to point out flaws in his designs if ever so
small. The fact is that with loose Moose and Loose Moose 2 the first thing eveyone
asked about was the noise at anchor so the subject must come up with Phil very often
and he's found his rap on the subject but the tone I was objecting to was that it was
so awful that it was a problem that had to be dealt with...It's not and most current
production boats in thin fiberglass with big sugar scoop sterns are much noiser at
anchor than any of Phil's boats I have personal experience with (Jessie
Cooper,Micro,Loose Moose,Black Skimmer).
The second thing about the flat bottom slamming under sail is only sailing down wind
( and I have at least 5000 miles of dead downwind experience with the LM's) and it
was never a problem...all other points of sail you are heeled and presenting a V to the
water so the flat slamming apparently so feared by many just does not happen.
Of course there is sailing to weather and all I can say is that true gentlemaen and
ladies DON'T (or at least keep it to a minimum) and dead to wweather on any boat is
not as much fun as other directions...
But the bottom line on all boats is if you want extreme shoal draft (or whatever) there
is always a cost of some sort and all boats are a compromise and you shoud look at
that as an advantage rather than a hindrance.
On Stainless and alloy...what the people I have talked to have said is that the stainless
hulls and deck are a lot of upkeep as every weld after a couple of years is a unsightly
rust weep (apparently not a structural problem but a cosmetic one) and they are
NOISEY (think big tin drum) and a transatlanic passage is apparently a symphony! On
the Stainless being brittle or having crevice corrosion problems the few boats I have
seen have been designed to avoid those problems...
Wood or a wood composite is still the best material in my less than humble musings
for home builders up to about fifty feet but then I hate grinding metal and welding is
something I can do but prefer not to.
If I was going to build a metal boat I would use the Stronall system by Meta in France
it is easily the best way to go in alloy...
On our jessie Cooper we used lead ballast ingots in place of the steel (in two ballast
boxes not unlike the way the ballast is handled in LM2) that Phil spec'd only because
our boatbuilding site was close to a guy who did lead very cheaply but we kept the
weight the same. We never felt that our JC needed more and if you know anything
about what passes for weather in the English Channel and French and Dutch coasts
we had more than enough wind to sail in everything from all sails up to bare poles. By
the way Loose Moose 1 (almost twenty years old now) is still sailing in France and has
held up very well.
I loved the lug rig which was incredibly powerful (and cheap) and would make a
wonderful cruising rig for how 99% of people actually cruise. Like I said before the
one mistake I think I made in my requests to Phil ( for some reason I expected the
gaff to be easier to handle but it really was not easier just different with LM2 all my
gaff experience having been on a big 90 foot Schooner I had run on the west coast
when I was in college so my education of gaff in a cat rigged extreme shallow draft
vessel was just beginning) was not going with the same rig or possibly the Dipping
Lug (plus you have to keep in mind that the Loose Moose 2 rig was almost the same
sail area as the Jessie Cooper...
Anyway hope that answered the questions...
Bob
generally that he is one of the first persons to point out flaws in his designs if ever so
small. The fact is that with loose Moose and Loose Moose 2 the first thing eveyone
asked about was the noise at anchor so the subject must come up with Phil very often
and he's found his rap on the subject but the tone I was objecting to was that it was
so awful that it was a problem that had to be dealt with...It's not and most current
production boats in thin fiberglass with big sugar scoop sterns are much noiser at
anchor than any of Phil's boats I have personal experience with (Jessie
Cooper,Micro,Loose Moose,Black Skimmer).
The second thing about the flat bottom slamming under sail is only sailing down wind
( and I have at least 5000 miles of dead downwind experience with the LM's) and it
was never a problem...all other points of sail you are heeled and presenting a V to the
water so the flat slamming apparently so feared by many just does not happen.
Of course there is sailing to weather and all I can say is that true gentlemaen and
ladies DON'T (or at least keep it to a minimum) and dead to wweather on any boat is
not as much fun as other directions...
But the bottom line on all boats is if you want extreme shoal draft (or whatever) there
is always a cost of some sort and all boats are a compromise and you shoud look at
that as an advantage rather than a hindrance.
On Stainless and alloy...what the people I have talked to have said is that the stainless
hulls and deck are a lot of upkeep as every weld after a couple of years is a unsightly
rust weep (apparently not a structural problem but a cosmetic one) and they are
NOISEY (think big tin drum) and a transatlanic passage is apparently a symphony! On
the Stainless being brittle or having crevice corrosion problems the few boats I have
seen have been designed to avoid those problems...
Wood or a wood composite is still the best material in my less than humble musings
for home builders up to about fifty feet but then I hate grinding metal and welding is
something I can do but prefer not to.
If I was going to build a metal boat I would use the Stronall system by Meta in France
it is easily the best way to go in alloy...
On our jessie Cooper we used lead ballast ingots in place of the steel (in two ballast
boxes not unlike the way the ballast is handled in LM2) that Phil spec'd only because
our boatbuilding site was close to a guy who did lead very cheaply but we kept the
weight the same. We never felt that our JC needed more and if you know anything
about what passes for weather in the English Channel and French and Dutch coasts
we had more than enough wind to sail in everything from all sails up to bare poles. By
the way Loose Moose 1 (almost twenty years old now) is still sailing in France and has
held up very well.
I loved the lug rig which was incredibly powerful (and cheap) and would make a
wonderful cruising rig for how 99% of people actually cruise. Like I said before the
one mistake I think I made in my requests to Phil ( for some reason I expected the
gaff to be easier to handle but it really was not easier just different with LM2 all my
gaff experience having been on a big 90 foot Schooner I had run on the west coast
when I was in college so my education of gaff in a cat rigged extreme shallow draft
vessel was just beginning) was not going with the same rig or possibly the Dipping
Lug (plus you have to keep in mind that the Loose Moose 2 rig was almost the same
sail area as the Jessie Cooper...
Anyway hope that answered the questions...
Bob