Re: Micro build manual from Common Sense Boats?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, fountainb@s... wrote:
It is indeed interesting stuff and it has oftened surprised me
the things I've learnt on this group but I do agree with you
regarding the relevance on the main Bolger forum.
What should be done is to encourage and invite those interested
in expanding and exponding on this slighty off-topic field(or any
other for that matter!) on over
to the virtual Bolger coffee lounge found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_coffee_lounge/?yguid=33031986
Lots of nifty subjects could be vented there,without the need to
leave entirely the Bolger realm.Lots of file/photo space too to post
cool non-Bolger-non-nautical stuff for general interest like
avaition etc.......
Now,if only some genius could come up with a method of pouring
oneself a real cup of coffee or other beverage "right off the
net"..........!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,enjoying my first taste of yet another winter-
wonderland with a brisk -17C chill-factored breeze serving to
underline its arrival along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
> I am familiar with the copyleft and similar licenses, and I metBruce,
> RMS about 8 years ago at a talk in Sydney. Interesting stuff.
> However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearing
> on the Bolger forum.
>
> Bruce Fountain
> Systems Engineer
> Union Switch & Signal
> Perth, Western Australia
It is indeed interesting stuff and it has oftened surprised me
the things I've learnt on this group but I do agree with you
regarding the relevance on the main Bolger forum.
What should be done is to encourage and invite those interested
in expanding and exponding on this slighty off-topic field(or any
other for that matter!) on over
to the virtual Bolger coffee lounge found here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_coffee_lounge/?yguid=33031986
Lots of nifty subjects could be vented there,without the need to
leave entirely the Bolger realm.Lots of file/photo space too to post
cool non-Bolger-non-nautical stuff for general interest like
avaition etc.......
Now,if only some genius could come up with a method of pouring
oneself a real cup of coffee or other beverage "right off the
net"..........!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,enjoying my first taste of yet another winter-
wonderland with a brisk -17C chill-factored breeze serving to
underline its arrival along the shores of the St.Lawrence........
The "Pirogue 12" plans are on this web page:
http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/bolger.html
with a notice saying Phil would like $25 if you build one, or 2% of
the purchase price if you build one and sell it.
I wonder how much money he has made from this "shareware" design?
Paul
http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/bolger.html
with a notice saying Phil would like $25 if you build one, or 2% of
the purchase price if you build one and sell it.
I wonder how much money he has made from this "shareware" design?
Paul
> In a way, the 'GNU' analogy explains why PB&F is not motivatedtheir
> to design more 'Instant Boats'. They simply cannot afford to design
> such elegantly simple boats under a GNU model. Rather, they
> choose to design custom 'one off's' for well to do clients, that is
> bread and butter.
Someone recently gave me micro plans purchased from CSB in 2002. It
contains in addition to the plans:
"Micro Key by Philip Bolger", 3 pages which contain the building key.
"Micro's How-To-Do-It Bulletin (key expansion) by Elrow La Rowe 1982
(updated 1992 by Bernie)", 5 pages of additional building notes which
follow the key.
"Lead Keel building" 2 pages of notes.
"How To Build Common Sense Boats" an 11 page pamphlet of general
building notes.
Seems silly they would send you the plans without the building key.
Seems even worse they won't give you the downloadable portion, when
they should figure you are already on the internet, and can easily
give them bad publicity.
contains in addition to the plans:
"Micro Key by Philip Bolger", 3 pages which contain the building key.
"Micro's How-To-Do-It Bulletin (key expansion) by Elrow La Rowe 1982
(updated 1992 by Bernie)", 5 pages of additional building notes which
follow the key.
"Lead Keel building" 2 pages of notes.
"How To Build Common Sense Boats" an 11 page pamphlet of general
building notes.
Seems silly they would send you the plans without the building key.
Seems even worse they won't give you the downloadable portion, when
they should figure you are already on the internet, and can easily
give them bad publicity.
> Yes the building manual I am looking for is the building key that
> matches the numbers on the plans.
Don't forget PCB has practically given away some of his best designs
by publishing them in full and inviting people implicity, and
sometimes explicitly, to build them from the book.
Having spent so much on buying Bolger books, including two copies of
BWAOM, I wouldn't feel too guilty about building a boat from the book.
Howard
by publishing them in full and inviting people implicity, and
sometimes explicitly, to build them from the book.
Having spent so much on buying Bolger books, including two copies of
BWAOM, I wouldn't feel too guilty about building a boat from the book.
Howard
Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
not matched by Michalak, and others who followed.
For instance, Pirate Racer, with the historically accuracy, plus the
set of iconoclastic egalitarian 'racing rules' that accompanied the
design. Capable for a purpose.
Or, the simple utiltiy of Tortoise, capable for a purpose,
too ugly to steal and cheap enough you wouldn't care.
Similar for Birdwatcher, a capable boat for a specific purpose.
These designs, measured not only physically,
but also metaphysically, are a cut above the norm.
Some GNU collaborative designs accomplish this too, Linux
for instance. Still, I can't imagine GNU working as well for
boat designs.
> On the other hand there are a wealth of instant boat designs out thereOften, Phil Bolger took the 'instant boat' concept to another level,
>- not just Bolger's but also others
not matched by Michalak, and others who followed.
For instance, Pirate Racer, with the historically accuracy, plus the
set of iconoclastic egalitarian 'racing rules' that accompanied the
design. Capable for a purpose.
Or, the simple utiltiy of Tortoise, capable for a purpose,
too ugly to steal and cheap enough you wouldn't care.
Similar for Birdwatcher, a capable boat for a specific purpose.
These designs, measured not only physically,
but also metaphysically, are a cut above the norm.
Some GNU collaborative designs accomplish this too, Linux
for instance. Still, I can't imagine GNU working as well for
boat designs.
Bruce wrote:
Personally, I lament that PB&F doesn't favor more of the 'Instant Boat'
types of designs, it doesn't make a living, sad but true.
On the other hand there are a wealth of instant boat designs out there - not just Bolger's but also others who have been greatly influenced by PCB, most notably Jim Michalak, but to a lesser extent lots of other designers who design for stich and glue and other straightforward construction methods.
For example, I'm currently working on a fairly sophisticated stitch and glue kayak that has definite Bolger influences, though the use of the word 'instant' would be questionable!
Unfortunately few other designers have got the communication skills of PCB or are able to reproduce the clarity and beauty of his drawings. Nevertheless, many of them are excellent naval architects and their work is admirable and rewarding to build.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Personally, I lament that PB&F doesn't favor more of the 'Instant Boat'
types of designs, it doesn't make a living, sad but true.
On the other hand there are a wealth of instant boat designs out there - not just Bolger's but also others who have been greatly influenced by PCB, most notably Jim Michalak, but to a lesser extent lots of other designers who design for stich and glue and other straightforward construction methods.
For example, I'm currently working on a fairly sophisticated stitch and glue kayak that has definite Bolger influences, though the use of the word 'instant' would be questionable!
Unfortunately few other designers have got the communication skills of PCB or are able to reproduce the clarity and beauty of his drawings. Nevertheless, many of them are excellent naval architects and their work is admirable and rewarding to build.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearingThe relevance is that [at the start of the thread], there was a suggestion
> on the Bolger forum.
> Bruce Fountain
that boat designs might be best distributed using a GNU model.
I fail to see how a GNU model could financially allow PB&F to
dedicate their full creative time to creating new boat designs.
The Red Hat example involves lots of copies sold at small margins.
There just aren't enough customers of boat designs to allow that model.
Some around here lament that the Bolger designs in the last two
decades are not as simple and fun as the ones from the 1980's,
the 'Instant Boat' fleet era.
Indeed, the more recent PB&F boat designs tend to be larger
fancier 'one off' designs, which not coincidentally, raise money
for the design team more efficiently than the 'Instant Boat' type
of boat designs ever did.
Personally, I lament that PB&F doesn't favor more of the 'Instant Boat'
types of designs, it doesn't make a living, sad but true.
In a way, the 'GNU' analogy explains why PB&F is not motivated
to design more 'Instant Boats'. They simply cannot afford to design
such elegantly simple boats under a GNU model. Rather, they
choose to design custom 'one off's' for well to do clients, that is their
bread and butter.
> Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:24:37 -0800 (PST)OK, what is RH's business model?
> From: "John van V." <john_van_v@...>
> Subject: Re: Intellectual Property is a Misnomer - comes from WIPO
>
> > How, in GNU, can they make money selling what they make?
>
>Redhat is an example, very, very profitable.
Besides selling "packaged CDs", they - like many other package sellers -
need money from companies that pay them for supporting their SW. Few
individuals will pay, since they can get the CDs/SW cheap (e.g. download
them), and they can get the support via online forums.
How does this work with Boat Design?
Once the designs are built a few times, and the plans corrected for every
mistake, a builder should not need much support from the designer, no? If
so, he could get it from groups like this one, no? A commercial boat
builder might be willing to spend the money for "paid support", but few
individuals who build a design only one time, would be willing to spend
much money, no?
Free (or Open Source) style Boat Design works obviously only
- for designers who have other sources of income
(i.e. hobby designers and boat manufacturers)
- for designers, if they can make enough money from the original design,
i.e. from the fees that the first-time builder pays them
- for designers who get otherwise funding, e.g. research institutes
There is one more difference with SW, and that is the size of the market
leading to different designer-user relations:
With SW, it does not matter much where I live. 100 USD might be peanuts for
a good SW package in the US, but it is quite some money where I live. With
SW, I am left out. I might resolve to use the SW without having a proper
license.
With a boat design, I imagine that PCB (or any other designer for that
matter) might consider the situation, and give the license to build a boat
for a considerable lower fee, more suitable to the market.
One odd thing though: I understand that PCB does not consider his
"cartoons" as copyright protected. So, if somebody manages to build a boat
according to a cartoon, without buying the full plans, this looks like
being ok, no?
If I have a look at somebody else's plans (to learn some details), but then
build only following the cartoon, so ... ?
To me it looks like there is considerable grey area...
Cheers from a FLOSS activist, turned boat builder (and wannabe designer)
Stefan
John van V. wrote:
RMS about 8 years ago at a talk in Sydney. Interesting stuff.
However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearing
on the Bolger forum.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I want to leave you with the concept known as copylefting, invented byRichard
> Stallman of the GNU organization. It basically says that copyleftedsoftware
> is free to use, but if you use it and improve on it, you must publishthe
> improvements (on the web) for free useI am familiar with the copyleft and similar licenses, and I met
RMS about 8 years ago at a talk in Sydney. Interesting stuff.
However I completely fail to see how this subject has any bearing
on the Bolger forum.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
designer sells is the right to build one boat from a set of plans.
It's not the plans you buy, it's a license.
What does any of this have to do with boatbuilding or boating,
anyway?. My only right that's being infringed is my right of
unwasted bandwidth..
> > John van V. <john_van_v@y...> wrote:terms. You need
> >
> >
> > Richard Stallman, of GNU, will fight to the death over these
> > to be specific, he says, either copyright or patent or somethingelse. He is
> > actually correct, I think.That's correct Bruce. What Bolger and any other boat/aircraft
>
> Copyright, I guess. What Bolger sells, as I understand it,
> is not the paper, but rather the right to build one boat from
> the boat design.
>
designer sells is the right to build one boat from a set of plans.
It's not the plans you buy, it's a license.
What does any of this have to do with boatbuilding or boating,
anyway?. My only right that's being infringed is my right of
unwasted bandwidth..
>Ok,
> How, in GNU, can they make money selling what they make?
>
(deep breath)
Redhat is an example, very, very profitable. All you need to do is look at
their website (http://redhat.com) to see how it works. But in my experience,
RH is not always exactly altruistic, casting a shadow on GNU's best free
enterprise example.
I created a Unix-on-Microsoft product called Gnoo-nix. I found out that my
Gnoo-nix was on almost every Win32 server I could find out about, so there must
have been millions of copies out there.
A RH employee came after me one day for not posting the source code for THEIR
(cygwin.dll) free product, then they made it impossible for me to find the code
to post it. At the time I was negotiating on behalf of my wall street employer
to buy services from this same division for a package called secure shell, so
this guy had to stop bothering me
But, if any RH employees read this negative review, they will probably try to
retaliate.. Since I am out of that business, it will be futile
FYI, I wrote only config files and created the filesystem architecture, and
tested !! The advantage of my system is that your C:/ drive was the root of
the Nix system rather than having the root buried in the program files section.
It is still the only system that does that
(exhale)
> FWIW, Bolger is on record [I recall] that it is OK with him for othersYeah thats sharing, but you can't copyright an idea, but maybe patent it. But
> to take his ideas and run with them making new ideas.
> Jim Michalak is an example. That is almost a form of GNU.
in boating there is so much prior art that I think that would be a waste of
time.
A twin keel hull might work well here as an example. They are very expensive
to design, especially the keel cross sections. A designer could pick up the
last hull and keel design, improve it a little, saving a huge effort, and then
publish the new plan. This would improve the art and science in an orderly way,
benefitting every shoal draught situation.
In other examples, A double ender bateau might aquire a transom, or an Advanced
Sharpie might be converted to metal. Rig modifications come to mind too.
With computer software it works very well by the nature of the business. Using
the MP3 download phenomena as a software example, sharing can be non-voluntary
-- be it right or wrong.
I used to be troubled by "piracy", but now I dont care. Richard Stallman
however does not want anybody called a pirate unless they are looting on the
high seas.
Boats might be more of a challenge, but then this list is 99% hypothetical.
John van V.
=====
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> John van V. <john_van_v@...> wrote:Copyright, I guess. What Bolger sells, as I understand it,
>
>
> Richard Stallman, of GNU, will fight to the death over these terms. You need
> to be specific, he says, either copyright or patent or something else. He is
> actually correct, I think.
is not the paper, but rather the right to build one boat from
the boat design.
In this case, you have a husband and wife 'small business'
outputting some of the most creative boat designs known
to man. Highly desirable stuff.
How, in GNU, can they make money selling what they make?
FWIW, Bolger is on record [I recall] that it is OK with him for others
to take his ideas and run with them making new ideas.
Jim Michalak is an example. That is almost a form of GNU.
> of Micro and Oldshoe plans from Bolger & Co, is fax and snailmailYes, and easy to do, too.
> still the only way to contact them?
Allowing that you are considering spending 500 hours or so
building a fancy box boat, 20 minutes spend finding your checkbook,
and or a stamp and an envelope is easy.
Thanks Bruce (and others) for educating me on the history of this. I
guess I won't be getting any answer from my email to CSB anytime
soon...
Yes the building manual I am looking for is the building key that
matches the numbers on the plans.
How do I contact Bolger & Co?
From a web search this is all I have found..."The best way to
contact Phil Bolger and Friends, Inc. is by fax at (978) 282-1349,
or by mail at P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA 01930 USA. They respond
quickly to faxes and have a reputation for being very helpful. They
do not use a telephone, and do not use email..."
I don't see Micro (or OldShoe another design I am interested in) for
sale at the Payson & Co website. Payson also only takes payments via
a check in the mail, and I haven't written a real check in several
years now! The main reason I went with ordering from the CSB site is
that I could pay online.
I'll take the CSB purchase as a loss, and I would like to get a copy
of Micro and Oldshoe plans from Bolger & Co, is fax and snailmail
still the only way to contact them?
guess I won't be getting any answer from my email to CSB anytime
soon...
Yes the building manual I am looking for is the building key that
matches the numbers on the plans.
How do I contact Bolger & Co?
From a web search this is all I have found..."The best way to
contact Phil Bolger and Friends, Inc. is by fax at (978) 282-1349,
or by mail at P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA 01930 USA. They respond
quickly to faxes and have a reputation for being very helpful. They
do not use a telephone, and do not use email..."
I don't see Micro (or OldShoe another design I am interested in) for
sale at the Payson & Co website. Payson also only takes payments via
a check in the mail, and I haven't written a real check in several
years now! The main reason I went with ordering from the CSB site is
that I could pay online.
I'll take the CSB purchase as a loss, and I would like to get a copy
of Micro and Oldshoe plans from Bolger & Co, is fax and snailmail
still the only way to contact them?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> >>ken_nyus wrote:
> >>I recently purchased a set of Micro plans from Common Sense
Boats,
> >>but they did not send me ...
>
> Phil Bolger and Friends have indicated that Common Sense Boats may
not
> have rights to sell Micro plans, read about it here:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1250
>
> ...
Richard Stallman, of GNU, will fight to the death over these terms. You need
to be specific, he says, either copyright or patent or something else. He is
actually correct, I think.
Much more imporant to know is that the IP word comes from WIPO, a globalist
organization who is against you, if you are an average person.
Christopher May, "Information Society, A Skeptical View", will tell you that
the corporate elite have started "annexing" the products of creative minds --
the "public domain", in EXACTLY the same way the aristocracy annexed the
publically owned free lands -- also the public domain (this being the example
used by Lewis Mumford in "Techics and Civilization").
An extension of the concept of patent and copyright control, as applied to
boats, would have you NOT owning your boat. The boat you built would be owned
by the copyright or patent owner. And much of your mind would be too (see SCO
vrs IBM).
The best documented example of this wholly unconstitional control is the DVD
struggle w/ the free software people, but it is not limited to that. Your DNA
is NOT your property, for instance, if you have been in a study of your DNA.
These crazy concepts are consistantly losing in court, but the problem is that
our stupid leaders, both Dem and Repub**, are signing away our rights at every
world trade meeting they attend. Now the US is getting huge WTO fines.
In the Information Society boat designs are as important as any other
information (mabye more so ;) ), and we are at the point now in our age where
people have to take sides.
Nothing new is actually happening here, James Watt could not collect a dime,
nor could the inventor of the modern fabric loom. We have however just passed
a futile attempt at a compromise called the "New Economy." The "Smokestacks
Industries****" very handily turned that enlightened attempt into a hugh stock
swindle.
**My personal opinion is that the "libertarians" are the worst of the bunch
here, their proprosal for a pure free trade economy combined w/ their proposed
complete legalization of drugs would result in a global takeover by warlords
****The Smokestacks are also known as the old economy, the "coal and iron" or
"cult of death" or as the Paleotechnic by Mumford
Note: all these books are on Amazon and "Technics and Civilization" can be read
for free, but not downloaded
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to be specific, he says, either copyright or patent or something else. He is
actually correct, I think.
Much more imporant to know is that the IP word comes from WIPO, a globalist
organization who is against you, if you are an average person.
Christopher May, "Information Society, A Skeptical View", will tell you that
the corporate elite have started "annexing" the products of creative minds --
the "public domain", in EXACTLY the same way the aristocracy annexed the
publically owned free lands -- also the public domain (this being the example
used by Lewis Mumford in "Techics and Civilization").
An extension of the concept of patent and copyright control, as applied to
boats, would have you NOT owning your boat. The boat you built would be owned
by the copyright or patent owner. And much of your mind would be too (see SCO
vrs IBM).
The best documented example of this wholly unconstitional control is the DVD
struggle w/ the free software people, but it is not limited to that. Your DNA
is NOT your property, for instance, if you have been in a study of your DNA.
These crazy concepts are consistantly losing in court, but the problem is that
our stupid leaders, both Dem and Repub**, are signing away our rights at every
world trade meeting they attend. Now the US is getting huge WTO fines.
In the Information Society boat designs are as important as any other
information (mabye more so ;) ), and we are at the point now in our age where
people have to take sides.
Nothing new is actually happening here, James Watt could not collect a dime,
nor could the inventor of the modern fabric loom. We have however just passed
a futile attempt at a compromise called the "New Economy." The "Smokestacks
Industries****" very handily turned that enlightened attempt into a hugh stock
swindle.
**My personal opinion is that the "libertarians" are the worst of the bunch
here, their proprosal for a pure free trade economy combined w/ their proposed
complete legalization of drugs would result in a global takeover by warlords
****The Smokestacks are also known as the old economy, the "coal and iron" or
"cult of death" or as the Paleotechnic by Mumford
Note: all these books are on Amazon and "Technics and Civilization" can be read
for free, but not downloaded
> GNU boat designs could/would work among 'builder designers'. But, many of us=====
> want the expertise offered by designers who aren't builders, and who want to
> sell their 'intellectual property' to make a living. GNU doesn't work for
> that!
>
__________________________________
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The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
I feel your pain i made the same mistake. I finally had to buy a set
of plans from PCB&F. I was supposed to be emaild a password to
access the key on line but due to "a new server" it couldn't be
accessed. I called them for several weeks to no avail and went so
far as to refute the payment with my CC company. Bastards ended up
getting my money anyways. Bolger was understanding and told me 3they
had been to court with them once before but now CSD?B was in Canada
and they had given up. PCB&F cut me a little slack and i got the
micro plans and the navigator sheet for the price of the regular
plans. Good luck.
Jason
PS the only changes i saw where in the rig the newer plans have a
taller mast and more sail area.
of plans from PCB&F. I was supposed to be emaild a password to
access the key on line but due to "a new server" it couldn't be
accessed. I called them for several weeks to no avail and went so
far as to refute the payment with my CC company. Bastards ended up
getting my money anyways. Bolger was understanding and told me 3they
had been to court with them once before but now CSD?B was in Canada
and they had given up. PCB&F cut me a little slack and i got the
micro plans and the navigator sheet for the price of the regular
plans. Good luck.
Jason
PS the only changes i saw where in the rig the newer plans have a
taller mast and more sail area.
> Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:Just to be clear, I understand the issue of whether CSB has rights to
> Phil Bolger and Friends have indicated that Common Sense Boats may not
> have rights to sell Micro plans, read about it here:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1250
sell plans has to do with whether royalty payments are made, and at
least in 1999 this was in question, as whether royalty payments are
being made now, I do not know.
>>ken_nyus wrote:Phil Bolger and Friends have indicated that Common Sense Boats may not
>>I recently purchased a set of Micro plans from Common Sense Boats,
>>but they did not send me ...
have rights to sell Micro plans, read about it here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/1250
Other people before you have reported on their varied degrees of
satisfaction dealing with Common Sense Boats, search the archives of
this group to find dozens of discussion threads about this topic.
<grin>.
In any case, I believe that the Micro plans offered by Common Sense
Designs are the 'old plans' and Phil Bolger and Friends have made
several upgrades and improvements on those plans in the last decade,
certainly worth getting if you are going to the trouble of building a
Micro.
When you mentioned 'building manual', what I think you are asking about is the
Bolger building key, a listing of numbered notes indicated on the
drawings. Which more or less explain the details and sequence of the
construction. I understand that the building key is described as
protected intellectual property in the PB&F message 1250 linked above,
for sale from Phil Bolger and Friends costing (I recall) $150 for the
standard version, [$175 for the upgraded version of Micro] for the
rights to build one boat.
> John van V. wrote:GNU boat designs could/would work among 'builder designers'. But, many of us
> Stallman of the GNU organization. It basically says that copylefted software
> is free to use, but if you use it and improve on it, you must publish the
> improvements (on the web) for free use**
want the expertise offered by designers who aren't builders, and who want to
sell their 'intellectual property' to make a living. GNU doesn't work for that!
Hi all,
I a hitting the road again, driving the fed ex "white glove" serivce
(tractor/trailer this time), the creme de la creme, being quaker influenced I
am troubled when have to haul machine guns destined for Iraq.. oh what the
hell, its money :)
I want to leave you with the concept known as copylefting, invented by Richard
Stallman of the GNU organization. It basically says that copylefted software
is free to use, but if you use it and improve on it, you must publish the
improvements (on the web) for free use**
It has been wildly successful and has spawned a new kind of economy called
e-mutualism, a specific area of social science studies.
In my honest opinion, this particular group seems just right for it, since
virtually everything is mutually supporting w/ almost no concern for money.
There are free software "in-betweens", open source being the best known.
Copylefting has its detractors and open source was meant to be more business
friendly.
So, my point here is, any kind of specifically planned sharing would be a very
good thing, and would lead to designs combining lots of different talents.
If you are more interested in the conceptual side of this, please email me,
since this is one of my areas of study.
John van V.
**This is significant because we are in an explosive stage of humanity, the
re-definition of the "Information Society", where now the whole human race can
be educated about how their lives affect everyone else's.
t has been my personal experience that many people who just don't care
(sociopaths) are more ignornat and isolated than evil. The same applies to
despotistic leaders (and corporate executives), people really need to network
to deal with all the abuse that has been coming down in the world
=====
__________________________________________________
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I a hitting the road again, driving the fed ex "white glove" serivce
(tractor/trailer this time), the creme de la creme, being quaker influenced I
am troubled when have to haul machine guns destined for Iraq.. oh what the
hell, its money :)
I want to leave you with the concept known as copylefting, invented by Richard
Stallman of the GNU organization. It basically says that copylefted software
is free to use, but if you use it and improve on it, you must publish the
improvements (on the web) for free use**
It has been wildly successful and has spawned a new kind of economy called
e-mutualism, a specific area of social science studies.
In my honest opinion, this particular group seems just right for it, since
virtually everything is mutually supporting w/ almost no concern for money.
There are free software "in-betweens", open source being the best known.
Copylefting has its detractors and open source was meant to be more business
friendly.
So, my point here is, any kind of specifically planned sharing would be a very
good thing, and would lead to designs combining lots of different talents.
If you are more interested in the conceptual side of this, please email me,
since this is one of my areas of study.
John van V.
**This is significant because we are in an explosive stage of humanity, the
re-definition of the "Information Society", where now the whole human race can
be educated about how their lives affect everyone else's.
t has been my personal experience that many people who just don't care
(sociopaths) are more ignornat and isolated than evil. The same applies to
despotistic leaders (and corporate executives), people really need to network
to deal with all the abuse that has been coming down in the world
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
http://www.common-sense-boats.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John van V." <john_van_v@y...> wrote:
>
> what website ??
> --- ken_nyus <ken_nyus@y...> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> > I recently purchased a set of Micro plans from Common Sense
Boats,
> > but they did not send me any information about getting the build
> > manual from the website. I have emailed them, but so far no
response.
> >
> > Anyone else have the same experience? How did you get the build
> > manual?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
what website ??
--- ken_nyus <ken_nyus@...> wrote:
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- ken_nyus <ken_nyus@...> wrote:
>=====
> Hey all,
>
> I recently purchased a set of Micro plans from Common Sense Boats,
> but they did not send me any information about getting the build
> manual from the website. I have emailed them, but so far no response.
>
> Anyone else have the same experience? How did you get the build
> manual?
>
>
>
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Hey all,
I recently purchased a set of Micro plans from Common Sense Boats,
but they did not send me any information about getting the build
manual from the website. I have emailed them, but so far no response.
Anyone else have the same experience? How did you get the build
manual?
I recently purchased a set of Micro plans from Common Sense Boats,
but they did not send me any information about getting the build
manual from the website. I have emailed them, but so far no response.
Anyone else have the same experience? How did you get the build
manual?