Re: Biplane Rig
Not really fairer, but faster, so when sailing to windward the
apparent wind would not be so much from ahead as it would nearer the
surface. And, the power of the wind is proportional to the square of
its speed, isn't it?.
Howard
apparent wind would not be so much from ahead as it would nearer the
surface. And, the power of the wind is proportional to the square of
its speed, isn't it?.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> Roger (aren't the winds fairer aloft?)
Having the deep centreboard and rudder under the one hull with the
mast above might lessen weather helm on that tack as compared to
monosailing a biplane rig, but it is likely more manageable (=fast)
on one tack than the other. Reefing or dousing sail should be
manageable if she can be got on the tack allowing the sail to be
across the decks. (Maybe roller furling with the clue out haul by
way of a car on a track on the sprit boom. The fore end of the sprit
must allow the luff to rotate, so maybe it could be affixed to a
separate forestay?)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
mast above might lessen weather helm on that tack as compared to
monosailing a biplane rig, but it is likely more manageable (=fast)
on one tack than the other. Reefing or dousing sail should be
manageable if she can be got on the tack allowing the sail to be
across the decks. (Maybe roller furling with the clue out haul by
way of a car on a track on the sprit boom. The fore end of the sprit
must allow the luff to rotate, so maybe it could be affixed to a
separate forestay?)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>It indicates that PCB's 40' catamaran with the offset mast could be
>unmanageable on the tack where the sail is above the leeward hull.
In the December issue of Duckworks Magazine there is an article by
Herman Otto on a Bi-plane rigged cat. I've not read it yet as my
subscription has just lapsed. Hmm, now that's a good excuse to buy
some more plans ;)
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/s/contents/december.htm
Graeme
Herman Otto on a Bi-plane rigged cat. I've not read it yet as my
subscription has just lapsed. Hmm, now that's a good excuse to buy
some more plans ;)
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/s/contents/december.htm
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> That's interesting.
>
> My impression is that aircraft used "biplane" rigs because:
>
> 1) they couldn't build strong unstayed masts (spars) and
>
> 2) they liked the roll rate they could get with the smaller moment
of
> inertia.
>
> If you want roll rate, you really ought to get a monohull.
>
> Roger (aren't the winds fairer aloft?)
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ghartc" <gregg.carlson@g...>
>
> > For what it's worth, I have a biplane rig on a Hobie Trifoiler.
You
> > probably know, they're extremely fast, sailing upwind almost all
the
> > time do to apparent wind. I imagine they used it for a couple of
> > reasons - to keep the CE low and to probably take advantage of
> > high-speed windsurfer-like sails. The sails are widely
separated, but
> > I doubt have time to blanket each other. Anyway, it works well
in
> > some cases...
That's interesting.
My impression is that aircraft used "biplane" rigs because:
1) they couldn't build strong unstayed masts (spars) and
2) they liked the roll rate they could get with the smaller moment of
inertia.
If you want roll rate, you really ought to get a monohull.
Roger (aren't the winds fairer aloft?)
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
My impression is that aircraft used "biplane" rigs because:
1) they couldn't build strong unstayed masts (spars) and
2) they liked the roll rate they could get with the smaller moment of
inertia.
If you want roll rate, you really ought to get a monohull.
Roger (aren't the winds fairer aloft?)
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "ghartc" <gregg.carlson@...>
> For what it's worth, I have a biplane rig on a Hobie Trifoiler. You
> probably know, they're extremely fast, sailing upwind almost all the
> time do to apparent wind. I imagine they used it for a couple of
> reasons - to keep the CE low and to probably take advantage of
> high-speed windsurfer-like sails. The sails are widely separated, but
> I doubt have time to blanket each other. Anyway, it works well in
> some cases...
For what it's worth, I have a biplane rig on a Hobie Trifoiler. You
probably know, they're extremely fast, sailing upwind almost all the
time do to apparent wind. I imagine they used it for a couple of
reasons - to keep the CE low and to probably take advantage of
high-speed windsurfer-like sails. The sails are widely separated, but
I doubt have time to blanket each other. Anyway, it works well in
some cases...
Gregg
probably know, they're extremely fast, sailing upwind almost all the
time do to apparent wind. I imagine they used it for a couple of
reasons - to keep the CE low and to probably take advantage of
high-speed windsurfer-like sails. The sails are widely separated, but
I doubt have time to blanket each other. Anyway, it works well in
some cases...
Gregg
There had to be a reason not to use a biplane rig. I wonder what was
the experience with the Hill's catamaran.
Also interesting is the report of serious handling problems with only
one of the biplane sails set. It indicates that PCB's 40' catamaran
with the offset mast could be unmanageable on the tack where the sail
is above the leeward hull.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
wrote:
the experience with the Hill's catamaran.
Also interesting is the report of serious handling problems with only
one of the biplane sails set. It indicates that PCB's 40' catamaran
with the offset mast could be unmanageable on the tack where the sail
is above the leeward hull.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
wrote:
>the
> In 'New plywood Boats' p142, Thomas Firth Jones states that he put
>a biplane rig on his 'Dandy' cat; a mast on each hull. A prediction
>by Dick Newick that it would only be good downwind in a Force 5 went
> unheeded. After two seasons he'd found some problems:
>
> The windward sail blanketed the leeward one through 60 degrees on
> either tack, and added to the 45 degrees either side of directly
> upwind left ONLY 150 compass degrees to sail in; dropping one
> sail of the biplane rig makes the boat unmanageable, like monohull
> weather helm caused by heeling shifting sail centre of effort way
> out to leeward; reefing the windward sail was easy, but reefing
> leeward sail hanging out over the water was so scary they never
> sailed anywhere it might be needed, like offshore.The 'China Moon'
> mizzen might help reefing operations.
In 'New plywood Boats' p142, Thomas Firth Jones states that he put a
biplane rig on his 'Dandy' cat; a mast on each hull. A prediction by
Dick Newick that it would only be good downwind in a Force 5 went
unheeded. After two seasons he'd found some problems:
The windward sail blanketed the leeward one through 60 degrees on
either tack, and added to the 45 degrees either side of directly
upwind left ONLY 150 compass degrees to sail in; dropping one
sail of the biplane rig makes the boat unmanageable, like monohull
weather helm caused by heeling shifting sail centre of effort way
out to leeward; reefing the windward sail was easy, but reefing the
leeward sail hanging out over the water was so scary they never
sailed anywhere it might be needed, like offshore.The 'China Moon'
mizzen might help reefing operations.
However, Wharram's first ocean crossing cat,'Tangaroa' had a kinda
yawl rig. The mizzen was junk (more Chinese balanced lug) rigged,
the main was sorta Chinese battened bermudan with jib. Wharram says
junk rigs have been designed for 6 (excluding Tangaroa) of their
catamaran designs, but have been discontinued.He says "they were
found unsuitable, especially on the slimmer designs, due to
turbulance caused by higher (than monohull) multihull speeds."
Higher speed bringing the apparant wind forward, so mostly beating
to windward. I've heard junks perform best when allowed to bear off
a bit. It doesn't appear that Wharram has tried anything quite like
PCB&F's 'Chinese Gaff' although he has the short gaff 'wing sail'.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
biplane rig on his 'Dandy' cat; a mast on each hull. A prediction by
Dick Newick that it would only be good downwind in a Force 5 went
unheeded. After two seasons he'd found some problems:
The windward sail blanketed the leeward one through 60 degrees on
either tack, and added to the 45 degrees either side of directly
upwind left ONLY 150 compass degrees to sail in; dropping one
sail of the biplane rig makes the boat unmanageable, like monohull
weather helm caused by heeling shifting sail centre of effort way
out to leeward; reefing the windward sail was easy, but reefing the
leeward sail hanging out over the water was so scary they never
sailed anywhere it might be needed, like offshore.The 'China Moon'
mizzen might help reefing operations.
However, Wharram's first ocean crossing cat,'Tangaroa' had a kinda
yawl rig. The mizzen was junk (more Chinese balanced lug) rigged,
the main was sorta Chinese battened bermudan with jib. Wharram says
junk rigs have been designed for 6 (excluding Tangaroa) of their
catamaran designs, but have been discontinued.He says "they were
found unsuitable, especially on the slimmer designs, due to
turbulance caused by higher (than monohull) multihull speeds."
Higher speed bringing the apparant wind forward, so mostly beating
to windward. I've heard junks perform best when allowed to bear off
a bit. It doesn't appear that Wharram has tried anything quite like
PCB&F's 'Chinese Gaff' although he has the short gaff 'wing sail'.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>http://www.multihull.de/news/2003/juni.htm#chinamoon
> CM's rig is intriguing. At first I thought it was grossly
> undercanvassed but then I noticed it has a single mizzen, but two
> mainsails, one on each hull. I've often wondered why this idea has
> not been exploited more often in cats.
Thomas Firth Jones in "Low Resistance Boats" describes some epic
early voyaging with wife, Carol, in their first small cat. I'm sure
it was the same Wharram design, Hinemoa, as Pete and Annie Hill's.
It even had a coal burning stove. I'm not so sure now whether it was
Annie's grandmother, or TFJ's mother-in-law who at dockside before
their departure passed some amusing comments about the sleeping
accommodation, incredulously saying that better them than her.
Two's company. Then again James Wharram wrote in 1969 "Two Girls
Two Catamarans"... ;)
TFJ says that every time you go ashore from a (small) multihull you
must take something and leave it behind. Weight kills performance.
Graeme
early voyaging with wife, Carol, in their first small cat. I'm sure
it was the same Wharram design, Hinemoa, as Pete and Annie Hill's.
It even had a coal burning stove. I'm not so sure now whether it was
Annie's grandmother, or TFJ's mother-in-law who at dockside before
their departure passed some amusing comments about the sleeping
accommodation, incredulously saying that better them than her.
Two's company. Then again James Wharram wrote in 1969 "Two Girls
Two Catamarans"... ;)
TFJ says that every time you go ashore from a (small) multihull you
must take something and leave it behind. Weight kills performance.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@s...> wrote:
> Hey! Their first voyage from England to the Caribbean was in a
small
> catamaran. (It's wonderful when your bride is a young innocent
fresh out of
> high school.)
>
> Annie described cooking with the stove between her knees while she
sat in
> Pete's lap. The other hull was full of supplies and everything
was always
> wet.
>
> Roger
> derbyrm@s...
>http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@y...>
>
> > NO!! Not a multihull!! Where is Anne going to carry all the
beans they
> > eat?
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...>
wrote:
> >> >I entered "China Moon" anne hill badger into Google images,
and it
> >> >asked me if I didn't mean "beaver" for "badger". It
seems "china moon"
> >> >is the name of a porn actress, and an image search . . . well,
don't go
> >> >there.
> >>
> >> China Cloud is the junk rigger if that's what yer lookin' for
> >> --
> >> Craig O'Donnell
> >> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
Hey! Their first voyage from England to the Caribbean was in a small
catamaran. (It's wonderful when your bride is a young innocent fresh out of
high school.)
Annie described cooking with the stove between her knees while she sat in
Pete's lap. The other hull was full of supplies and everything was always
wet.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
catamaran. (It's wonderful when your bride is a young innocent fresh out of
high school.)
Annie described cooking with the stove between her knees while she sat in
Pete's lap. The other hull was full of supplies and everything was always
wet.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@...>
> NO!! Not a multihull!! Where is Anne going to carry all the beans they
> eat?
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:
>> >I entered "China Moon" anne hill badger into Google images, and it
>> >asked me if I didn't mean "beaver" for "badger". It seems "china moon"
>> >is the name of a porn actress, and an image search . . . well, don't go
>> >there.
>>
>> China Cloud is the junk rigger if that's what yer lookin' for
>> --
>> Craig O'Donnell
>> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
One big difference between "China Moon" and Badger
is that Badger has much more draft.
is that Badger has much more draft.
Lewis E. Gordon wrote:
storing all the water required to cook them.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> NO!! Not a multihull!! Where is Anne going to carryNot a problem, dried beans are pretty light. The problem is
> all the beans they eat?
storing all the water required to cook them.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NO!! Not a multihull!! Where is Anne going to carry all the beans they
eat?
Lewis
eat?
Lewis
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:
> >I entered "China Moon" anne hill badger into Google images, and it
asked
> >me if I didn't mean "beaver" for "badger". It seems "china moon"
is the
> >name of a porn actress, and an image search . . . well, don't go there.
>
>
> China Cloud is the junk rigger if that's what yer lookin' for
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
>I entered "China Moon" anne hill badger into Google images, and it askedChina Cloud is the junk rigger if that's what yer lookin' for
>me if I didn't mean "beaver" for "badger". It seems "china moon" is the
>name of a porn actress, and an image search . . . well, don't go there.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
I had to try it, of course -- or at least "China Moon" without any
other words.
Eventually, although not directly from Google, or even from the
website's site map, I found this:
http://www.multihull.de/news/2003/juni.htm#chinamoon
The whole website is full of info about multihulls, although the
text is mainly in German.
CM's rig is intriguing. At first I thought it was grossly
undercanvassed but then I noticed it has a single mizzen, but two
mainsails, one on each hull. I've often wondered why this idea has
not been exploited more often in cats.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@u...>
other words.
Eventually, although not directly from Google, or even from the
website's site map, I found this:
http://www.multihull.de/news/2003/juni.htm#chinamoon
The whole website is full of info about multihulls, although the
text is mainly in German.
CM's rig is intriguing. At first I thought it was grossly
undercanvassed but then I noticed it has a single mizzen, but two
mainsails, one on each hull. I've often wondered why this idea has
not been exploited more often in cats.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@u...>
> Umm, be careful if you search using Google for an image of the newboat.
> From: Harry James <welshman@...>Umm, be careful if you search using Google for an image of the new boat.
> Subject: Re: Re: PB - Cruising CAT
> They built the cat, got divorced, Pete was last seen in South America.
> The boat is called China Moon and there is or was a picture on the web
> of her. Annie occasionally shows up on the Yahoo junk rigs group.
> >Annie & Pete Hill of the Benford sailing dory "Badger"
> >and "Voyaging on a Small Income" fame have reputedly sold "Badger"
I entered "China Moon" anne hill badger into Google images, and it asked
me if I didn't mean "beaver" for "badger". It seems "china moon" is the
name of a porn actress, and an image search . . . well, don't go there.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.