Re: Is There an Answer?
Good timing... as I was sitting here perusing the Jessie Cooper
plans.
I concur that Micro may not be a good match. Micro is a blast to
sail in, and to overnight in, but does better where the chop is
spread out and not steep. I sailed her in Salem Sound and
Marblehead and could keep pace with many other boats slightly off
the wind. She does very well on a reach and run. Nantucket Sound
was tougher in that the usual chop and motorboat wake left little
patience for heading up wind (usually south). But, the motor was so
handy it was not embarassing to fire it up when needed.
I loved sailing her, and dream of building an AS 29 to pick up where
Micro left off.
David Jost
former Micro building and owner.
plans.
I concur that Micro may not be a good match. Micro is a blast to
sail in, and to overnight in, but does better where the chop is
spread out and not steep. I sailed her in Salem Sound and
Marblehead and could keep pace with many other boats slightly off
the wind. She does very well on a reach and run. Nantucket Sound
was tougher in that the usual chop and motorboat wake left little
patience for heading up wind (usually south). But, the motor was so
handy it was not embarassing to fire it up when needed.
I loved sailing her, and dream of building an AS 29 to pick up where
Micro left off.
David Jost
former Micro building and owner.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <johnmann@i...> wrote:
Sounds a lot like a Micro is not a good design for the sailing
conditions in your stomping grounds.
I don't think a wishbone will improve the performance all that much
and it is not nearly as convenient as the regular sprit. But it might
be worth a try. On the "bad tack" the only part of the sail that gets
affected is the area below the sprit and I wonder how much drive that
area actually adds?
The amount of leeway you observe and the way the motorboat wakes stop
the boat makes me believe you need a boat with more length, momentum
and a deeper keel, as well as more sail.
I bet Red Zinger or Bright Thread would really be more effective in
your conditions. Also Long Micro is a lot more boat than Micro as it
has four feet more W/L and a lot more sail area. Trouble is it only
has the same shallow keel.
PCB&F nixed the idea of adding a centerboard to LM saying it would
not be worth the complication and might actually slow it down! Better
choice is to fire up the motor to get through the wakes and cross
currents etc. They suggest that a LM can handle a Yamaha T9.9 four
stroke:-)
Merry Christmas,
Nels
>Hi John,
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
> wrote:
> > I suppose I should have explained myself before asking this
> question.
Sounds a lot like a Micro is not a good design for the sailing
conditions in your stomping grounds.
I don't think a wishbone will improve the performance all that much
and it is not nearly as convenient as the regular sprit. But it might
be worth a try. On the "bad tack" the only part of the sail that gets
affected is the area below the sprit and I wonder how much drive that
area actually adds?
The amount of leeway you observe and the way the motorboat wakes stop
the boat makes me believe you need a boat with more length, momentum
and a deeper keel, as well as more sail.
I bet Red Zinger or Bright Thread would really be more effective in
your conditions. Also Long Micro is a lot more boat than Micro as it
has four feet more W/L and a lot more sail area. Trouble is it only
has the same shallow keel.
PCB&F nixed the idea of adding a centerboard to LM saying it would
not be worth the complication and might actually slow it down! Better
choice is to fire up the motor to get through the wakes and cross
currents etc. They suggest that a LM can handle a Yamaha T9.9 four
stroke:-)
Merry Christmas,
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
headlands and coves that bend and funnel any wind. The harbour
develops a nasty chop on windy days which is exacerbated by
displacement motor boats racing to and fro. On any brilliant summer
saturday afternoon the regular racing fleets are out on the harbour
racing around the buoys, so I get a good comparison of how the Micro
sails against these craft. I understand that a Micro is a cruising
boat, but she sure aint weatherly by my definition. In comparison
to most craft with deeper thinner keels she makes incredible
leeway. I must confess that I'm not much of a sailor (I'm learning
fast, but I think that there may be a few things that one could do
to improve sailing performance rather than accept the adage
that "its just a cruiser". It seems to me that at a suitable
boatspeed, with her chine dug in, she produces acceptable windward
performance. I still think that sail shape would make a difference
to the power of the sail and boatspeed capability, hence my
suggestion to use the wishbone boom as I do notice a difference in
performance on different tacks when the sprit boom biscects the
sail.
The other thing about the Micro is that when sailing in choppy seas,
if the boat is not heeled to present the chine the the waves, then
the boat will stop in her tracks when hit by the waves. Therefore
it is imperative to enjoyable sailing to solve these problems and
not ignore them,
Cheers
John Mann
Cheers,
John Mann
wrote:
> I suppose I should have explained myself before asking thisquestion. I Sail my micro on Sydney harbour which has many
headlands and coves that bend and funnel any wind. The harbour
develops a nasty chop on windy days which is exacerbated by
displacement motor boats racing to and fro. On any brilliant summer
saturday afternoon the regular racing fleets are out on the harbour
racing around the buoys, so I get a good comparison of how the Micro
sails against these craft. I understand that a Micro is a cruising
boat, but she sure aint weatherly by my definition. In comparison
to most craft with deeper thinner keels she makes incredible
leeway. I must confess that I'm not much of a sailor (I'm learning
fast, but I think that there may be a few things that one could do
to improve sailing performance rather than accept the adage
that "its just a cruiser". It seems to me that at a suitable
boatspeed, with her chine dug in, she produces acceptable windward
performance. I still think that sail shape would make a difference
to the power of the sail and boatspeed capability, hence my
suggestion to use the wishbone boom as I do notice a difference in
performance on different tacks when the sprit boom biscects the
sail.
The other thing about the Micro is that when sailing in choppy seas,
if the boat is not heeled to present the chine the the waves, then
the boat will stop in her tracks when hit by the waves. Therefore
it is imperative to enjoyable sailing to solve these problems and
not ignore them,
Cheers
John Mann
Cheers,
John Mann
> > Do you regard Birdwatcher as a weatherly boat?could
>
> No experience, no opinion.
>
> "Weatherly" can have a couple of different interpretations. It
> be taken to mean "fast upwind". Birdwatcher will not be fastupwind
> by any sort of modern keelboat standards.gale",
>
> It could also be taken to mean "can made progress upwind in a
> e.g. off a lee shore. I think the ability of the sailor is veryweight
> important here. The boat will keep the water out in conditions and
> at angle of heel that would swamp open boats of similar size,
> and sail area. The question is how strong the wind has to bebefore
> the drag of the wind on the hull is more than the drive from the
> sail can overcome.
>
> I suppose weatherly can also mean "points high when beating."
> Chances are that you can point high, but that you slow down a lot
> when you do.
>
> Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
country? It looks very cold and a bit "sharkey" as we used to say
in the southern ocean during mid winter surfing with 11 centigrade
water temps,
Cheers,
John
It all depends -- doesn't it? --
> > Bruce,Absolutely brilliant shots. Excuse my ignorance, but where and what
country? It looks very cold and a bit "sharkey" as we used to say
in the southern ocean during mid winter surfing with 11 centigrade
water temps,
Cheers,
John
It all depends -- doesn't it? --
> > on the nature of the lee shore and
> > the size of the waves.
>
>http://www.mavsurfer.com/image_photo/mavs_12_05_04/index.htm
>
> Surf's up where I live! Photos from ten miles down
> the beach from where I live, a couple weeks ago.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Nels
>http://www.mavsurfer.com/image_photo/mavs_12_05_04/index.htmGreat photos. I especially liked the pelicans:-)
>
> Surf's up where I live! Photos from ten miles down
> the beach from where I live, a couple weeks ago.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
be surprised if one could not sail it straight up on shore without it
swamping. Built according to the new plans it is a foam sandwich
construction with 1" foam between two layers of plywood and can have
a 2" bottom if you so desire.
Any coast can become a lee shore - all it takes is a wind shift. I
would rather coast than sail offshore so that is a part of the risk I
guess. I would not sail along a coast if I felt it was unsafe, but
would instead load the boat up on a trailer.
The big challenge with coastal cruising is that every so often you
reach a big bay or have to jump between islands. If you are in a very
small boat the risk of being blown out to sea may be more dangerous
than landing on a lee shore.
According to PCB&F, Micro's short W/L is a major drawback when
offhsore as it may have problems maintaining a course. BWII has close
to twice the W/L and almost as much sail, on a lighter displacement
so they feel it is more offshore capable than many production boats
claim to be these days.
I witnessed something very confirming when watching the hurricane
coverage on CNN. The reporter was standing outside in front of a
small boat, yelling above the din about how many boats were being
damaged and sunk and the studio person asked if the one behind her
was an example. The camera panned in for a closeup and it was a small
boat on a trailer. It was barely rocking as it was experiencing about
the same winds as when it goes down the highway:-)
Cheers, Nels
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
> My point was really that Micro would be better able to withstand aAccording to PCB&F BWII should not sink, even if holed, and I would
> gale than would Birdwatcher, which would very likely swamp and
> possibly sink before it got to the shore.
>
> I agree fully about the benefit of a proper inboard diesel engine.
>
> Howard
be surprised if one could not sail it straight up on shore without it
swamping. Built according to the new plans it is a foam sandwich
construction with 1" foam between two layers of plywood and can have
a 2" bottom if you so desire.
Any coast can become a lee shore - all it takes is a wind shift. I
would rather coast than sail offshore so that is a part of the risk I
guess. I would not sail along a coast if I felt it was unsafe, but
would instead load the boat up on a trailer.
The big challenge with coastal cruising is that every so often you
reach a big bay or have to jump between islands. If you are in a very
small boat the risk of being blown out to sea may be more dangerous
than landing on a lee shore.
According to PCB&F, Micro's short W/L is a major drawback when
offhsore as it may have problems maintaining a course. BWII has close
to twice the W/L and almost as much sail, on a lighter displacement
so they feel it is more offshore capable than many production boats
claim to be these days.
I witnessed something very confirming when watching the hurricane
coverage on CNN. The reporter was standing outside in front of a
small boat, yelling above the din about how many boats were being
damaged and sunk and the studio person asked if the one behind her
was an example. The camera panned in for a closeup and it was a small
boat on a trailer. It was barely rocking as it was experiencing about
the same winds as when it goes down the highway:-)
Cheers, Nels
A lot of this thread suggests that "weatherly" has something to do with beating of a lee shore in heavy weather. This suggests the need for a hull which is powerful enough to carry enough sail to make windward progress in heavy winds (whatever that might be). In a recent MAIB, there is a picture of Birdwatcher heeled at 45 degrees with the rudder out of the water. The caption indicates that the boat rounded up and righted itself with a big splash. Grand to avoid capsize; not so good for beating off a lee shore.
If you need to beat off a lee shore, I think you need a heavily ballasted, powerful hull like a Freindship sloop. But I readily concede that my comments are based on speculation, that I have no actual experience, and that I hope never to get any experience in this area!
John T
If you need to beat off a lee shore, I think you need a heavily ballasted, powerful hull like a Freindship sloop. But I readily concede that my comments are based on speculation, that I have no actual experience, and that I hope never to get any experience in this area!
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Bedard
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: [bolger] Weatherly [was: Is There an Answer?]
Thank you Peter for your response quoted below. True words that every sailor should read. Every time someone inquires about the upwind ability of any plywood box-boat design (which I love dearly) I cringe at first, and then am overcome with the urge to respond, but lack the descriptive writing skills to express it as you have... My experiences on San Francisco Bay in boats as diverse as my Michalak "Birdwatcher" type Jewelbox Jr, J-24s, Farrier F-27s, ferro-cement Ingrid ketch, and a 70 ton schooner bear out your words...
Rick Bedard
pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
"Weatherly" can have a couple of different interpretations. It could
be taken to mean "fast upwind". Birdwatcher will not be fast upwind
by any sort of modern keelboat standards.
It could also be taken to mean "can made progress upwind in a gale",
e.g. off a lee shore. I think the ability of the sailor is very
important here. The boat will keep the water out in conditions and
at angle of heel that would swamp open boats of similar size, weight
and sail area. The question is how strong the wind has to be before
the drag of the wind on the hull is more than the drive from the
sail can overcome.
I suppose weatherly can also mean "points high when beating."
Chances are that you can point high, but that you slow down a lot
when you do.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It all depends -- doesn't it? --http://www.mavsurfer.com/image_photo/mavs_12_05_04/index.htm
> on the nature of the lee shore and
> the size of the waves.
Surf's up where I live! Photos from ten miles down
the beach from where I live, a couple weeks ago.
It all depends -- doesn't it? -- on the nature of the lee shore and
the size of the waves. Much of the Mediterranean, where the Micro
adventure PCB wrote about took place, has a rocky steep coastline,
where it would be most difficult for people in any boat to pick a
spot where it would be safe to land in a gale. The same applies to
the stretch of North Cornwall coast (featured in the recent "Doc
Martin" TV series) that I know fairly well, particularly at low tide,
when the harbours either have no water in them or are closed by a
lock.
Along the southern half of the eastern Australian coastline there are
plenty of beaches, but they are exposed to the Pacific Ocean (or
technically the Tasman Sea) where, even if there is no wind at all,
the crew of any boat large enough to have internal accommodation
might just be lucky enough to catch a wave to shore. But more likely
trying to beach would cause the boat to broach, roll over and be
pounded to bits. You'd have a better chance in a BW, but it's no
surfboat and it's not the kind of exercise you'd want to practice
beforehand.
Along the northern half of the coastline, there's the Great Barrier
Reef, which is not the kind of lee shore I'd like to be exposed to.
Maybe I'd be lucky enough to find a gap in the coral, but maybe not.
My point was really that Micro would be better able to withstand a
gale than would Birdwatcher, which would very likely swamp and
possibly sink before it got to the shore.
I agree fully about the benefit of a proper inboard diesel engine.
Howard
the size of the waves. Much of the Mediterranean, where the Micro
adventure PCB wrote about took place, has a rocky steep coastline,
where it would be most difficult for people in any boat to pick a
spot where it would be safe to land in a gale. The same applies to
the stretch of North Cornwall coast (featured in the recent "Doc
Martin" TV series) that I know fairly well, particularly at low tide,
when the harbours either have no water in them or are closed by a
lock.
Along the southern half of the eastern Australian coastline there are
plenty of beaches, but they are exposed to the Pacific Ocean (or
technically the Tasman Sea) where, even if there is no wind at all,
the crew of any boat large enough to have internal accommodation
might just be lucky enough to catch a wave to shore. But more likely
trying to beach would cause the boat to broach, roll over and be
pounded to bits. You'd have a better chance in a BW, but it's no
surfboat and it's not the kind of exercise you'd want to practice
beforehand.
Along the northern half of the coastline, there's the Great Barrier
Reef, which is not the kind of lee shore I'd like to be exposed to.
Maybe I'd be lucky enough to find a gap in the coral, but maybe not.
My point was really that Micro would be better able to withstand a
gale than would Birdwatcher, which would very likely swamp and
possibly sink before it got to the shore.
I agree fully about the benefit of a proper inboard diesel engine.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> Having had the experience of being "piled up on a lee shore" on
more
> than one occasion, I would much rather be in a Birdwatcher than a
> Micro. However being ignorant of the dangers of getting too close
to
> a lee shore I was under the impression that I was "landing" and
> not "piling up":-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
than one occasion, I would much rather be in a Birdwatcher than a
Micro. However being ignorant of the dangers of getting too close to
a lee shore I was under the impression that I was "landing" and
not "piling up":-)
This is "standard procedure" for canoeists, kayakers, dingy and
fishermen in small outboard motor boats. The first time it happened,
I made the mistake of running straight into shore and the next wave
came over the stern and partially filled the boat with water. The
second time, I managed to swing the boat sideways to the waves before
we grounded out and only got a few gallons aboard and got wet from
the waist down. The third time we had our "timing down", broached
and just before we grounded, we both jumped out and pulled the boat
ashore as next wave lifted and carried the boat high and dry. Only
got wet from the knees down. We always had all our equipement in
waterproof bags.
The new Birdwatcher II - from what I understand - has solid
interlocking closures over the slot top and one can completely seal
up the interior if necessary, except for the possible spitting around
the centerboard and dripping around the mast opening.
The boat hull design that is the most likely to get badly damaged
from piling up on a lee shore is one with a narrow "wine glass" hull
cross-section and a deep keel. It would likely capsize and get beaten
down by the wind and waves, before it even reached the shoreline.
The hull design least likely to sustain damage is a flat-bottomed
hull, with a heavy bottom and self-righting capability. (Which
Birdwatcher has.)
I think the biggest defect in the two boats in question, is the tiny
outboard engine and the best solution to that is to have a diesel
engine with the prop well below the surface IF you want to stay
offshore. Not many boats can sail to weather into gale force winds so
the only other option in my view is the ability to heave too and ride
it out with the engine running if possible, or with a sea anchor and
storm sail.
It would be interesting to compare how many people drown as a result
of their boat landing on a lee shore as compared to being swamped or
broken up offshore? Even a "bold shoreline" usually has a small beach
or cove that one can land on.
So my first choice if sailing in a BWII would be to stay close enough
to shore that I could seek shelter if the weather threatened, or be
off-shore far enough to do the "cork in the bottle" thing as Bolger
describes in the Storm Petrel article. Otherwise I would want to have
a boat like The Small Motorsailer or Fiji with a diesel engine. Then
avoiding the lee shore would be my first priority.
Cheers, Nels (Who prefers to be on solid ground when it is storming
out:-)
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
>on
> There's no way I'd take BW passagemaking in the open Mediterranean,
> as described in PCB's story about Micro featured in BWAOM. In this
> account (it's fiction based on experience) the crew nearly pile up
> a lee shore, but just get themselves out of trouble under deep-reefed
> mainsail and flat-out outboard motor.Having had the experience of being "piled up on a lee shore" on more
>
> Some more-weatherly boats would have been safer, but not the
> unballasted BW, which would have filled with water and swamped.
>
> Howard
>
than one occasion, I would much rather be in a Birdwatcher than a
Micro. However being ignorant of the dangers of getting too close to
a lee shore I was under the impression that I was "landing" and
not "piling up":-)
This is "standard procedure" for canoeists, kayakers, dingy and
fishermen in small outboard motor boats. The first time it happened,
I made the mistake of running straight into shore and the next wave
came over the stern and partially filled the boat with water. The
second time, I managed to swing the boat sideways to the waves before
we grounded out and only got a few gallons aboard and got wet from
the waist down. The third time we had our "timing down", broached
and just before we grounded, we both jumped out and pulled the boat
ashore as next wave lifted and carried the boat high and dry. Only
got wet from the knees down. We always had all our equipement in
waterproof bags.
The new Birdwatcher II - from what I understand - has solid
interlocking closures over the slot top and one can completely seal
up the interior if necessary, except for the possible spitting around
the centerboard and dripping around the mast opening.
The boat hull design that is the most likely to get badly damaged
from piling up on a lee shore is one with a narrow "wine glass" hull
cross-section and a deep keel. It would likely capsize and get beaten
down by the wind and waves, before it even reached the shoreline.
The hull design least likely to sustain damage is a flat-bottomed
hull, with a heavy bottom and self-righting capability. (Which
Birdwatcher has.)
I think the biggest defect in the two boats in question, is the tiny
outboard engine and the best solution to that is to have a diesel
engine with the prop well below the surface IF you want to stay
offshore. Not many boats can sail to weather into gale force winds so
the only other option in my view is the ability to heave too and ride
it out with the engine running if possible, or with a sea anchor and
storm sail.
It would be interesting to compare how many people drown as a result
of their boat landing on a lee shore as compared to being swamped or
broken up offshore? Even a "bold shoreline" usually has a small beach
or cove that one can land on.
So my first choice if sailing in a BWII would be to stay close enough
to shore that I could seek shelter if the weather threatened, or be
off-shore far enough to do the "cork in the bottle" thing as Bolger
describes in the Storm Petrel article. Otherwise I would want to have
a boat like The Small Motorsailer or Fiji with a diesel engine. Then
avoiding the lee shore would be my first priority.
Cheers, Nels (Who prefers to be on solid ground when it is storming
out:-)
Thank you Peter for your response quoted below. True words that every sailor should read. Every time someone inquires about the upwind ability of any plywood box-boat design (which I love dearly) I cringe at first, and then am overcome with the urge to respond, but lack the descriptive writing skills to express it as you have... My experiences on San Francisco Bay in boats as diverse as my Michalak "Birdwatcher" type Jewelbox Jr, J-24s, Farrier F-27s, ferro-cement Ingrid ketch, and a 70 ton schooner bear out your words...
Rick Bedard
pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
"Weatherly" can have a couple of different interpretations. It could
be taken to mean "fast upwind". Birdwatcher will not be fast upwind
by any sort of modern keelboat standards.
It could also be taken to mean "can made progress upwind in a gale",
e.g. off a lee shore. I think the ability of the sailor is very
important here. The boat will keep the water out in conditions and
at angle of heel that would swamp open boats of similar size, weight
and sail area. The question is how strong the wind has to be before
the drag of the wind on the hull is more than the drive from the
sail can overcome.
I suppose weatherly can also mean "points high when beating."
Chances are that you can point high, but that you slow down a lot
when you do.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rick Bedard
pvanderwaart <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
"Weatherly" can have a couple of different interpretations. It could
be taken to mean "fast upwind". Birdwatcher will not be fast upwind
by any sort of modern keelboat standards.
It could also be taken to mean "can made progress upwind in a gale",
e.g. off a lee shore. I think the ability of the sailor is very
important here. The boat will keep the water out in conditions and
at angle of heel that would swamp open boats of similar size, weight
and sail area. The question is how strong the wind has to be before
the drag of the wind on the hull is more than the drive from the
sail can overcome.
I suppose weatherly can also mean "points high when beating."
Chances are that you can point high, but that you slow down a lot
when you do.
Peter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do you regard Birdwatcher as a weatherly boat?No experience, no opinion.
"Weatherly" can have a couple of different interpretations. It could
be taken to mean "fast upwind". Birdwatcher will not be fast upwind
by any sort of modern keelboat standards.
It could also be taken to mean "can made progress upwind in a gale",
e.g. off a lee shore. I think the ability of the sailor is very
important here. The boat will keep the water out in conditions and
at angle of heel that would swamp open boats of similar size, weight
and sail area. The question is how strong the wind has to be before
the drag of the wind on the hull is more than the drive from the
sail can overcome.
I suppose weatherly can also mean "points high when beating."
Chances are that you can point high, but that you slow down a lot
when you do.
Peter
> What do you mean by the "odd arrangement" on the CatfishThe Beachcruiser was designed with a faux raised deck for interior
> Beachcruiser?
volume, and an open slot top somewhat in the Birdwatcher vein. With
the typical catboat centerboard replaced by a shoal keel, it made a
boat with a lot of open volume for camping.
The problem is that it does not work well under sail. There were
some pictures of a nice one (built by John Tuma, IIRC), and the
helmsman was standing in the slot under sail. John, if it was he,
said he usually stood while sailing. He had built side facing
sailing seats (not on the plans, ruined the camping space) for
passengers, but due to the deck, they had to be well inboard to get
headroom out the slot.
If you could persuade the passengers to sit on the bottom of the
boat, inside, it would be better, though I'm not sure of the
headroom. Without the glass wall of Birdwatcher, that is not going
to be popular.
Bolger did draw another version laid out as a convertional catboat,
without cabin. I have not heard if any have been built, but it would
be a very nice boat.
Peter
> <someone> wrote:In these tests the wide hull allowed vangs to the peak of the Gaff
> > I'm not sure where I saw it but one of the groups has an article
> comparing three rigs, Marconi, Gaff and Spritsail on a standard
> catamaran hull with the spritsail being the best performing, the
> gaff second and the marconi third.
and Sprit. This reduced twist to almost nil. Thus you had, in these
two sails, low COEs and broad heads. With the Marconi twist is
minimized by the shape of the head of the sail, which is also a
narrow triangle with not much area to it.
Vanging the peak of squarish sails is not practical on narrow mono-
hulls...ergo, no modern racing mono-hulls with gaff or sprit sails.
I've tried all 3 on my dinghy...marconi goes to weather better, gaff
did fine, but more complicated, sprit wasn't sane to reef - the ease
and power of a standing lug won out.
Reed
Yes, what you say maybe true, but ( I know its not the point or a very good situation at all) but in a "Birdwatcher" or even a "Micro" for that matter if you were driven up(Hard!) against a Lee shore you could always walk to safety up the beach and abandon the craft to the mercy of the surf The boat may have let you down badly!!!--or more likely your inexperience has!!??!!(Unless its under a sheer cliff face, then you're really in deep trouble!....S..t!!!!)
Hugo Tyson, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
There's no way I'd take BW passagemaking in the open Mediterranean,
as described in PCB's story about Micro featured in BWAOM. In this
account (it's fiction based on experience) the crew nearly pile up on
a lee shore, but just get themselves out of trouble under deep-reefed
mainsail and flat-out outboard motor.
Some more-weatherly boats would have been safer, but not the
unballasted BW, which would have filled with water and swamped.
Howard
Hugo Tyson, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:
There's no way I'd take BW passagemaking in the open Mediterranean,
as described in PCB's story about Micro featured in BWAOM. In this
account (it's fiction based on experience) the crew nearly pile up on
a lee shore, but just get themselves out of trouble under deep-reefed
mainsail and flat-out outboard motor.
Some more-weatherly boats would have been safer, but not the
unballasted BW, which would have filled with water and swamped.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> Build the BW. Lots of boat/capacity for the money/effort.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There's no way I'd take BW passagemaking in the open Mediterranean,
as described in PCB's story about Micro featured in BWAOM. In this
account (it's fiction based on experience) the crew nearly pile up on
a lee shore, but just get themselves out of trouble under deep-reefed
mainsail and flat-out outboard motor.
Some more-weatherly boats would have been safer, but not the
unballasted BW, which would have filled with water and swamped.
Howard
as described in PCB's story about Micro featured in BWAOM. In this
account (it's fiction based on experience) the crew nearly pile up on
a lee shore, but just get themselves out of trouble under deep-reefed
mainsail and flat-out outboard motor.
Some more-weatherly boats would have been safer, but not the
unballasted BW, which would have filled with water and swamped.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
> Build the BW. Lots of boat/capacity for the money/effort.
On Monday, December 20, 2004, at 11:09 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
YIBB,
David
> It seems logical to me; choose a cruiser, *or* a racer.AKA, an I60.
> Trying to find a boat that is a compromise between the
> two only gets you a boat that is a bad cruiser *and* a
> bad racer.
YIBB,
David
Build the BW. Lots of boat/capacity for the money/effort.
-D
-D
On Monday, December 20, 2004, at 09:06 PM, mannthree wrote:
>
>
> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
> wrote:
>> Peter,
>
> A couple of followup questions:
>
> Do tou regard Birdwatcher as a weatherly boat?
>
> What do you mean by the "odd arrangement" on the Catfish
> Beachcruiser?
>
> Regards,
>
> John
>
>
>>> Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all the
>>> characteristics of the Micro:
>>> 15' in length
>>> Ease of Build
>>> Simple rig
>>> Self righting/bailing
>>> Good size cockpit
>>> Cosy Cabin
>>> Cat Yawl
>>> etc etc
>>>
>>> but are more weatherly?
>>
>> Antifouling does not prevent slime. I think the ablative paints
>> should be better than the traditional types.
>>
>> As for question about design, I think the answer is no. You would
>> have to relax at least one of your constraints. There are a couple
>> of alternatives that fail only the "more weatherly" test, e.g.
>> Supermouse and perhaps Japanese Beach Cruiser. There is Lynx that
>> fails the yawl rig and easy build criteria. There are several that
>> fail the 15' length criteria, such as Storm Petrel, Otter II, or
>> Chebacco, and, if you disregard length altogether, Birdwatcher.
> The
>> Catfish Beachcruiser is an intriging boat in this category, if you
>> can be content to work with the odd arrangement (you might be the
>> first to do so). http://www.instantboats.com/catfish.htm
>>
>> The are boats from other designers that come to mind, such as John
>> Welsfords "Tread Lightly"
>> (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/treadlightly/index.htm) and
>> Jacques Mertens' "Adelie" (http://boatplans-
> online.com/products.php?
>> id=14).
>>
>> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
Do tou regard Birdwatcher as a weatherly boat?
What do you mean by the "odd arrangement" on the Catfish
Beachcruiser?
Regards,
John
wrote:
> Peter,A couple of followup questions:
Do tou regard Birdwatcher as a weatherly boat?
What do you mean by the "odd arrangement" on the Catfish
Beachcruiser?
Regards,
John
> > Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all theThe
> > characteristics of the Micro:
> > 15' in length
> > Ease of Build
> > Simple rig
> > Self righting/bailing
> > Good size cockpit
> > Cosy Cabin
> > Cat Yawl
> > etc etc
> >
> > but are more weatherly?
>
> Antifouling does not prevent slime. I think the ablative paints
> should be better than the traditional types.
>
> As for question about design, I think the answer is no. You would
> have to relax at least one of your constraints. There are a couple
> of alternatives that fail only the "more weatherly" test, e.g.
> Supermouse and perhaps Japanese Beach Cruiser. There is Lynx that
> fails the yawl rig and easy build criteria. There are several that
> fail the 15' length criteria, such as Storm Petrel, Otter II, or
> Chebacco, and, if you disregard length altogether, Birdwatcher.
> Catfish Beachcruiser is an intriging boat in this category, if youonline.com/products.php?
> can be content to work with the odd arrangement (you might be the
> first to do so). http://www.instantboats.com/catfish.htm
>
> The are boats from other designers that come to mind, such as John
> Welsfords "Tread Lightly"
> (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/treadlightly/index.htm) and
> Jacques Mertens' "Adelie" (http://boatplans-
> id=14).
>
> Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "loosemoosefilmworks"
<loosemoosefilmworks@y...> wrote:
catamaran hull with the spritsail being the best performing, the
gaff second and the marconi third. I don't know what this shows
because I haven't seen too many ocean racers with spritsails!
Regards,
John
<loosemoosefilmworks@y...> wrote:
> I'm not sure where I saw it but one of the groups has an articlecomparing three rigs, Marconi, Gaff and Spritsail on a standard
catamaran hull with the spritsail being the best performing, the
gaff second and the marconi third. I don't know what this shows
because I haven't seen too many ocean racers with spritsails!
Regards,
John
> but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigswere as weatherly.
>history/politics and racing
> Sorry but I have to disagree about this one...!!! Not rue at all!
>
> The reason racers use the Bermuda/Marconi rig is more about
> rules which have distorted yacht design to no end and not in agood wa. For enlightening
> reading try Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing -- by Czeslaw A.Marchaj. In a test that
> spawned the book in question the Bermudan rig was actually rightdown at the bottom of
> windward ability...abanadon the gaff rig (
>
> Of course as a result of the rule changes that forced designers to
> which in wind tunnel tests is superior to the Marconi) ALLdevelopment has been directed
> at the Bermudan sloop...
>
>
> Bob
>http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/boatblog/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
of trouble on the harbour, especially on race days when 50mor so
plastic contraptions all seem to converge on the exact spot my Micro
is heading for. I use the outboard to get me to less congested
waters and clearer air. The long keel of the Micro is a problem,
but I have noticed that IF I can keep the sail full and boat speed
up, the chine "bites" and I actually get lift. Without spoiling the
simplicity of the sprit boom, leg o mutton sail, I would like to
experiment with a wishbone boom to get a more symmetrical sail
shape. The other thing I was thinking of using was the mainsail
design for the Great Pelican, which is about 129 sqft, which might
offer better control, a bit more power, easier reefing and better
shape,
Regards,
John
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly. I understand,
though, that for optimal performance a cat yawl mainsail has to be
cut quite full - moreso if the mast bends at all. The mizzen on the
other hand should be cut pretty well flat.
high with minimal wetted surface.
> Bill,Thanks for the reply. I do use the old evinrude 4HP to get me out
of trouble on the harbour, especially on race days when 50mor so
plastic contraptions all seem to converge on the exact spot my Micro
is heading for. I use the outboard to get me to less congested
waters and clearer air. The long keel of the Micro is a problem,
but I have noticed that IF I can keep the sail full and boat speed
up, the chine "bites" and I actually get lift. Without spoiling the
simplicity of the sprit boom, leg o mutton sail, I would like to
experiment with a wishbone boom to get a more symmetrical sail
shape. The other thing I was thinking of using was the mainsail
design for the Great Pelican, which is about 129 sqft, which might
offer better control, a bit more power, easier reefing and better
shape,
Regards,
John
Cheers,
John
Hi John,
>Don't ask me why, I'm no expert; but racers wouldn't all be using
> Cat yawls will never point as high as bermudan rigged boats -
bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly. I understand,
though, that for optimal performance a cat yawl mainsail has to be
cut quite full - moreso if the mast bends at all. The mizzen on the
other hand should be cut pretty well flat.
>efficient as a fin keel or centreboard at helping the boat to point
> The other thing about Micro is its long keel. That'll never be as
high with minimal wetted surface.
>to help you upwind. If your OB is quiet enough, nobody'll notice ;-)
> To my mind there's nothing wrong with motor-sailing using your OB
>(I
> Bill
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: mannthree
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 9:24 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Is There an Answer?
>
>
>
> Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all the
> characteristics of the Micro:
> 15' in length
> Ease of Build
> Simple rig
> Self righting/bailing
> Good size cockpit
> Cosy Cabin
> Cat Yawl
> etc etc
>
> but are more weatherly?
>
> Also I've also noticed that as the slime builds up on the hull
> keep her on a mooring and antifouled), the Micro tends not topoint
> as well to windward. Is this just my imagination or is there alike
> nautical reason for this? She's definitely slower so it looks
> time to scrub the bottom. I also think that the shape of thesails
> may have something to do with this. All suggestions greatfullyhorses
> received,
>
> Cheers,
>
> John Mann
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bruce Hallman:
--
One Track Mind Sue <futabachan@...>
> Most of the 'Bolger' boats we love are cruisers, not racers,Counterexample: the Insolent 60. :-)
> and have little (if any) standing rigging.
--
One Track Mind Sue <futabachan@...>
Will Samson wrote:
breakable, high tension wire and hardware.
Most of the 'Bolger' boats we love are cruisers, not racers,
and have little (if any) standing rigging.
It seems logical to me; choose a cruiser, *or* a racer.
Trying to find a boat that is a compromise between the
two only gets you a boat that is a bad cruiser *and* a
bad racer.
> on a taut forestay, you get to windward a heckuvaRacing successfully to windward requires expensive,
breakable, high tension wire and hardware.
Most of the 'Bolger' boats we love are cruisers, not racers,
and have little (if any) standing rigging.
It seems logical to me; choose a cruiser, *or* a racer.
Trying to find a boat that is a compromise between the
two only gets you a boat that is a bad cruiser *and* a
bad racer.
Peter,
Right on. It doesn't have anything to do with the cut of the sails,
except a lousy sail will make it even worse.
The new fathead sails are morthing into the perfect high-aspect
ellipse, which produces the highest lift/drag ratio. The recent
Practical Sailor has some photos of the elaborate headboards/battens
on the Vendee Globe racers (single-hand 'round the world) - you could
easily make the case that these are only lightweight gaffs.
Like the classic elliptical wing - the Supermarine Spitfire - they
also have a short cord length starting at the root (i.e. a short
boom). This pushes the sail area up, which is another way to say they
are quite tall. Building a tall, narrow, huge-roach, and controllable
rig means everything is highly loaded, but there's no reason you
couldn't step something a least a little more exotic in a micro (or
build a fat-head sail). One of the Vendee Globe racers (Tom Wiley's
Ocean Planet) even has an unstayed rig.
Of course, the same thing applies the the foil underneath - it needs
to be deep and narrow. There's no other way to get there. Even the
wing keels (end-plates) were just rule-beaters.
Moveable boards are the compromise to shoal sailors. There's no
reason you couldn't (though maybe aesthetic reasons why you shouldn't)
employ a daggerboard slot or centerboard well in your micro build.
Here's an idea - for leeaboard haters - why doesn't someone feather
and attach a pivoting steel plate to the side of an existing micro
(i.e. a "siderboard")? You'd have to rig a pendant somehow - maybe in
a tube (or put a wheel on the bottom of the board ;-} ).
Gregg Carlson
Right on. It doesn't have anything to do with the cut of the sails,
except a lousy sail will make it even worse.
The new fathead sails are morthing into the perfect high-aspect
ellipse, which produces the highest lift/drag ratio. The recent
Practical Sailor has some photos of the elaborate headboards/battens
on the Vendee Globe racers (single-hand 'round the world) - you could
easily make the case that these are only lightweight gaffs.
Like the classic elliptical wing - the Supermarine Spitfire - they
also have a short cord length starting at the root (i.e. a short
boom). This pushes the sail area up, which is another way to say they
are quite tall. Building a tall, narrow, huge-roach, and controllable
rig means everything is highly loaded, but there's no reason you
couldn't step something a least a little more exotic in a micro (or
build a fat-head sail). One of the Vendee Globe racers (Tom Wiley's
Ocean Planet) even has an unstayed rig.
Of course, the same thing applies the the foil underneath - it needs
to be deep and narrow. There's no other way to get there. Even the
wing keels (end-plates) were just rule-beaters.
Moveable boards are the compromise to shoal sailors. There's no
reason you couldn't (though maybe aesthetic reasons why you shouldn't)
employ a daggerboard slot or centerboard well in your micro build.
Here's an idea - for leeaboard haters - why doesn't someone feather
and attach a pivoting steel plate to the side of an existing micro
(i.e. a "siderboard")? You'd have to rig a pendant somehow - maybe in
a tube (or put a wheel on the bottom of the board ;-} ).
Gregg Carlson
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
>
> > In a test that
> > spawned the book in question the Bermudan rig was actually
> > right down at the bottom of
> > windward ability...
>
> One test does not a consensus make. If all those racers were being
> whipped on the club cruise by gaff cutters, they would have changed
> the rule in a heartbeat. For all the complaints about design being
> driven by racing rules, my observation is that the rules change
> quickly when there is a consensus among racing sailors. The
> introduction of sprit boats was one example. Currently we have
> canting keel boats with the mechanism operated by stored (i.e. not
> crew-derived) power. That goes against all the spirit of the racing
> rules since ever.
>
> As for the "all development has been done for Bermuda rigs", we note
> that the latest developments have been full length battens
> and "broadhead" sails. I think it's pretty clear that the gaff sail
> would have been developed into something not so very different.
>
> Although the 4-sided, gaff sail planform has the aerodynamic
> advantage of a broader head and raking leading edge at the top (more
> like the planform of good keel) it also has the disadvantage that
> the gaff is more difficult to control - as noted by PCB in 100 Small
> Boat Rigs - and more weight and windage aloft.
>
> Peter
Ok. What we are comparing here is a low-tech sprit-boomed fat-masted jib-headed low-aspect-ratio mainsail, with a tall slim-masted rig, typically using battens and mast benders and cunninghams and what have you. I'm not sure about the slot effect of the jib and whether it helps windward performance, but on a modern boat with a big genoa, on a taut forestay, you get to windward a heckuva sight better than any low tech cat rig.
My Chebacco went like dung off a shovel on a run or a reach, but to windward, the bermudan-rigged fin keelers of similar size and sail area scooted past. They were tacking through 100 degrees or less, and the Chebacco (without pinching) was more like 110 or 115. OK I could pinch it up to about 100, but there was very little drive from the sail, even though it was (just) full.
Of course maybe my racing skills aren't that good, but I suspect there was more to it than that.
On the other hand a high-tech lugger like Roxane or Romilly might be a whole other story.
Bill
My Chebacco went like dung off a shovel on a run or a reach, but to windward, the bermudan-rigged fin keelers of similar size and sail area scooted past. They were tacking through 100 degrees or less, and the Chebacco (without pinching) was more like 110 or 115. OK I could pinch it up to about 100, but there was very little drive from the sail, even though it was (just) full.
Of course maybe my racing skills aren't that good, but I suspect there was more to it than that.
On the other hand a high-tech lugger like Roxane or Romilly might be a whole other story.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: loosemoosefilmworks
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 1:32 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Is There an Answer?
but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly.
Sorry but I have to disagree about this one...!!! Not rue at all!
The reason racers use the Bermuda/Marconi rig is more about history/politics and racing
rules which have distorted yacht design to no end and not in a good wa. For enlightening
reading try Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing -- by Czeslaw A. Marchaj. In a test that
spawned the book in question the Bermudan rig was actually right down at the bottom of
windward ability...
Of course as a result of the rule changes that forced designers to abanadon the gaff rig (
which in wind tunnel tests is superior to the Marconi) ALL development has been directed
at the Bermudan sloop...
Bob
http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/boatblog/
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
Nels
> I would expect that the new chinese lug rig modifications willOf course I meant chinese GAFF rig!
> increase the Micro's performance considerably...
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mannthree" <johnmann@i...> wrote:
increase the Micro's performance considerably as it adds almost 100
more sq. ft. of sail area, with a considerable amount of it up
higher, which will definetely improve light air performance
immensely. However the added expense and complications are debatable.
I am with Bill Samson in that a quiet 4-stroke motor will be my
preferred choice over all those extra strings, battens, gaffs, vangs
etc.
Some details of this rig are in Bolger4 files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/
From what I understand, the sloop rig gains it's advantage with
the "slot effect" between jib and main, and the higher efficiency of
the airfoil effect of a taut headstay not dispruting the flow over
the sail, unlike what happens with the mast on a cat. The big
challenge is keeping that headstay taut and free from disruption.
(which includes roller furling!) Therefore the mast, standing
rigging, boom vang, extra sheeting hardware, more expensive sails,
bow sprit, etc. can quickly add up to more than the cost of the
original boat and you end up with a boat that demands a lot more work
and attention to sail!
Other advantages of the sprit yawl rig that were not mentioned is the
self-vanging and self-spilling of wind gusts with the sprit,and
unstayed mast, the tweaking ability of the snotter. The lack of twist
aloft due to smaller sail area (as opposed to a gaff or battened
sail.) and a short light boom that is up higher than with the
conventional boom. Then there are the obvious advantages of the
mizzen in providing an "air rudder" and ability to hold the boat into
the wind when reefing or lying at anchor.as well as providing self
steering on some points of sail.
The low, light sail rig also adds to the comfort when in a blow, as
there is less pendulum effect compared to a heavier, taller rig and
it also allows for a relatively narrower hull that easier to trailer.
The big disadvantage of the Micro is it's short W/L and poor
performance when sailed upright = poor light air performance. Of
course any build up of marine life on the hull really adds to the
problem.
Micro was designed specifically for a larger, older person who wanted
to sail in a leisurely, unstressed fashion and was meant to be
sailed "full and by" which means having fun and enjoying the journey -
not necessarily having to get there by a certain time:-) Yet is has
surprised a lot of other sailboats when on a close reach once the
wind pipes up. They are stuck to the rudder, while the Micro captain
may be nonchalantely lighting up his pipe, browsing through his
cooler, or even down below changing the CD, while the boat sails
itself.
Anyone contemplating building a Micro should certainly consider the
latest hull modifications, especially the tabernacled mast and closed-
in bow, with underwater fillets, the forward companionway and the
rudder end plate. Not only will this make it easier to add the
chinese lug rig if you decide to but it will also make it a better
motorsailor and capable of handling a larger motor if you want to go
faster:-)
Cheers, Nels
>I would expect that the new chinese lug rig modifications will
> Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all the
> characteristics of the Micro:
> 15' in length
> Ease of Build
> Simple rig
> Self righting/bailing
> Good size cockpit
> Cosy Cabin
> Cat Yawl
> etc etc
>
> but are more weatherly?
>
increase the Micro's performance considerably as it adds almost 100
more sq. ft. of sail area, with a considerable amount of it up
higher, which will definetely improve light air performance
immensely. However the added expense and complications are debatable.
I am with Bill Samson in that a quiet 4-stroke motor will be my
preferred choice over all those extra strings, battens, gaffs, vangs
etc.
Some details of this rig are in Bolger4 files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger4/files/MICRO%20NAVIGATOR/
From what I understand, the sloop rig gains it's advantage with
the "slot effect" between jib and main, and the higher efficiency of
the airfoil effect of a taut headstay not dispruting the flow over
the sail, unlike what happens with the mast on a cat. The big
challenge is keeping that headstay taut and free from disruption.
(which includes roller furling!) Therefore the mast, standing
rigging, boom vang, extra sheeting hardware, more expensive sails,
bow sprit, etc. can quickly add up to more than the cost of the
original boat and you end up with a boat that demands a lot more work
and attention to sail!
Other advantages of the sprit yawl rig that were not mentioned is the
self-vanging and self-spilling of wind gusts with the sprit,and
unstayed mast, the tweaking ability of the snotter. The lack of twist
aloft due to smaller sail area (as opposed to a gaff or battened
sail.) and a short light boom that is up higher than with the
conventional boom. Then there are the obvious advantages of the
mizzen in providing an "air rudder" and ability to hold the boat into
the wind when reefing or lying at anchor.as well as providing self
steering on some points of sail.
The low, light sail rig also adds to the comfort when in a blow, as
there is less pendulum effect compared to a heavier, taller rig and
it also allows for a relatively narrower hull that easier to trailer.
The big disadvantage of the Micro is it's short W/L and poor
performance when sailed upright = poor light air performance. Of
course any build up of marine life on the hull really adds to the
problem.
Micro was designed specifically for a larger, older person who wanted
to sail in a leisurely, unstressed fashion and was meant to be
sailed "full and by" which means having fun and enjoying the journey -
not necessarily having to get there by a certain time:-) Yet is has
surprised a lot of other sailboats when on a close reach once the
wind pipes up. They are stuck to the rudder, while the Micro captain
may be nonchalantely lighting up his pipe, browsing through his
cooler, or even down below changing the CD, while the boat sails
itself.
Anyone contemplating building a Micro should certainly consider the
latest hull modifications, especially the tabernacled mast and closed-
in bow, with underwater fillets, the forward companionway and the
rudder end plate. Not only will this make it easier to add the
chinese lug rig if you decide to but it will also make it a better
motorsailor and capable of handling a larger motor if you want to go
faster:-)
Cheers, Nels
> that the latest developments have been full length battens...than a Chinese Gaff?
> and "broadhead" sails. I think it's pretty clear that the gaff sail
> would have been developed into something not so very different.
What you describe sounds a heck of a lot like Bolger's Chinese Gaff.
>Although the 4-sided, gaff sail planform has the aerodynamicSheetlets on the variable tapered battens.
>advantage of a broader head and raking leading edge at the top (more
>like the planform of good keel) it also has the disadvantage that
>the gaff is more difficult to control -
> Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all theAntifouling does not prevent slime. I think the ablative paints
> characteristics of the Micro:
> 15' in length
> Ease of Build
> Simple rig
> Self righting/bailing
> Good size cockpit
> Cosy Cabin
> Cat Yawl
> etc etc
>
> but are more weatherly?
should be better than the traditional types.
As for question about design, I think the answer is no. You would
have to relax at least one of your constraints. There are a couple
of alternatives that fail only the "more weatherly" test, e.g.
Supermouse and perhaps Japanese Beach Cruiser. There is Lynx that
fails the yawl rig and easy build criteria. There are several that
fail the 15' length criteria, such as Storm Petrel, Otter II, or
Chebacco, and, if you disregard length altogether, Birdwatcher. The
Catfish Beachcruiser is an intriging boat in this category, if you
can be content to work with the odd arrangement (you might be the
first to do so).http://www.instantboats.com/catfish.htm
The are boats from other designers that come to mind, such as John
Welsfords "Tread Lightly"
(http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/treadlightly/index.htm)and
Jacques Mertens' "Adelie" (http://boatplans-online.com/products.php?
id=14).
Peter
> In a test thatOne test does not a consensus make. If all those racers were being
> spawned the book in question the Bermudan rig was actually
> right down at the bottom of
> windward ability...
whipped on the club cruise by gaff cutters, they would have changed
the rule in a heartbeat. For all the complaints about design being
driven by racing rules, my observation is that the rules change
quickly when there is a consensus among racing sailors. The
introduction of sprit boats was one example. Currently we have
canting keel boats with the mechanism operated by stored (i.e. not
crew-derived) power. That goes against all the spirit of the racing
rules since ever.
As for the "all development has been done for Bermuda rigs", we note
that the latest developments have been full length battens
and "broadhead" sails. I think it's pretty clear that the gaff sail
would have been developed into something not so very different.
Although the 4-sided, gaff sail planform has the aerodynamic
advantage of a broader head and raking leading edge at the top (more
like the planform of good keel) it also has the disadvantage that
the gaff is more difficult to control - as noted by PCB in 100 Small
Boat Rigs - and more weight and windage aloft.
Peter
but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly.
Sorry but I have to disagree about this one...!!! Not rue at all!
The reason racers use the Bermuda/Marconi rig is more about history/politics and racing
rules which have distorted yacht design to no end and not in a good wa. For enlightening
reading try Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing -- by Czeslaw A. Marchaj. In a test that
spawned the book in question the Bermudan rig was actually right down at the bottom of
windward ability...
Of course as a result of the rule changes that forced designers to abanadon the gaff rig (
which in wind tunnel tests is superior to the Marconi) ALL development has been directed
at the Bermudan sloop...
Bob
http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/boatblog/
Sorry but I have to disagree about this one...!!! Not rue at all!
The reason racers use the Bermuda/Marconi rig is more about history/politics and racing
rules which have distorted yacht design to no end and not in a good wa. For enlightening
reading try Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing -- by Czeslaw A. Marchaj. In a test that
spawned the book in question the Bermudan rig was actually right down at the bottom of
windward ability...
Of course as a result of the rule changes that forced designers to abanadon the gaff rig (
which in wind tunnel tests is superior to the Marconi) ALL development has been directed
at the Bermudan sloop...
Bob
http://www.loosemoosefilmworks.com/boatblog/
On Monday, December 20, 2004, at 06:53 AM, Hugo Tyson wrote:
is it means there's nothing cluttering up the cabin or cockpit, while
still being a well-ballasted, self-righting boat.
You can't have everything.
YIBB,
David
>and the thing about the cat yawl rig and long shallow keel on the MICRO
> The thing about the yawl rig is that it gives you balance
is it means there's nothing cluttering up the cabin or cockpit, while
still being a well-ballasted, self-righting boat.
You can't have everything.
YIBB,
David
The thing about the yawl rig is that it gives you balance,.....like for self-steering, the mizzen on a yawl is relatively small in comparison to the main so it's "driving" effect is very minimal. A yawl is basically a Sloop or Cutter (or for that matter a Cat rig) with a small mizzen to provide balance for self - steering properties and lying head to wind when anchored or moored. It also allows for quick sail reduction. Pull the mainsail down, keep the Jib up and you'll still get along fine in strong winds, but you won't point that close to the wind!
Read Bolger's 103 Small Boat Rigs Book "Straight Talk" to find out all the details, plusses and minusess of this and just aboutb anyother rig you could imagine. I may be a bit wrong in my facts, as I've had a few drinks and the memory may not be as sharp as usual!!!!!! ahhhhhhh, Vino!
My father built a Bolger "Romp" design, a 30' Cat Ketch (really a Yawl, due to the small size of the mizzen). We found that the small 66 sq. ft. Fully battened standing lug mizzen would allow "Beluga"(Romp design) to reach and run under this sail alone! She had a long straight keel and "Winged" rudder which no doubt helped, about an inch deeper keel than the specified on the design. She drew I think under 2' with the Centreboard raised and about 7' with it lowered and with her relatively small sail area was able to sail at about 8.5 knots regularly and in a good wind seemed to really fly. My father when he sold her about 8 years ago took the buyers out for a sail in about the roughest conditions he'd experienced in her. Coming back into the river, through waves starting to break, "beluga" strarted to surf down the waves, approaching(estimated speeds) of about 12.5 Knots). My father said this was one of his most exciting boating moments!!!....The people still bought the boat!!!
Hugo Tyson, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
Hi John,
Cat yawls will never point as high as bermudan rigged boats - Don't ask me why, I'm no expert; but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly. I understand, though, that for optimal performance a cat yawl mainsail has to be cut quite full - moreso if the mast bends at all. The mizzen on the other hand should be cut pretty well flat.
The other thing about Micro is its long keel. That'll never be as efficient as a fin keel or centreboard at helping the boat to point high with minimal wetted surface.
To my mind there's nothing wrong with motor-sailing using your OB to help you upwind. If your OB is quiet enough, nobody'll notice ;-)
Bill
Read Bolger's 103 Small Boat Rigs Book "Straight Talk" to find out all the details, plusses and minusess of this and just aboutb anyother rig you could imagine. I may be a bit wrong in my facts, as I've had a few drinks and the memory may not be as sharp as usual!!!!!! ahhhhhhh, Vino!
My father built a Bolger "Romp" design, a 30' Cat Ketch (really a Yawl, due to the small size of the mizzen). We found that the small 66 sq. ft. Fully battened standing lug mizzen would allow "Beluga"(Romp design) to reach and run under this sail alone! She had a long straight keel and "Winged" rudder which no doubt helped, about an inch deeper keel than the specified on the design. She drew I think under 2' with the Centreboard raised and about 7' with it lowered and with her relatively small sail area was able to sail at about 8.5 knots regularly and in a good wind seemed to really fly. My father when he sold her about 8 years ago took the buyers out for a sail in about the roughest conditions he'd experienced in her. Coming back into the river, through waves starting to break, "beluga" strarted to surf down the waves, approaching(estimated speeds) of about 12.5 Knots). My father said this was one of his most exciting boating moments!!!....The people still bought the boat!!!
Hugo Tyson, Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
Hi John,
Cat yawls will never point as high as bermudan rigged boats - Don't ask me why, I'm no expert; but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly. I understand, though, that for optimal performance a cat yawl mainsail has to be cut quite full - moreso if the mast bends at all. The mizzen on the other hand should be cut pretty well flat.
The other thing about Micro is its long keel. That'll never be as efficient as a fin keel or centreboard at helping the boat to point high with minimal wetted surface.
To my mind there's nothing wrong with motor-sailing using your OB to help you upwind. If your OB is quiet enough, nobody'll notice ;-)
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: mannthree
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Is There an Answer?
Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all the
characteristics of the Micro:
15' in length
Ease of Build
Simple rig
Self righting/bailing
Good size cockpit
Cosy Cabin
Cat Yawl
etc etc
but are more weatherly?
Also I've also noticed that as the slime builds up on the hull (I
keep her on a mooring and antifouled), the Micro tends not to point
as well to windward. Is this just my imagination or is there a
nautical reason for this? She's definitely slower so it looks like
time to scrub the bottom. I also think that the shape of the sails
may have something to do with this. All suggestions greatfully
received,
Cheers,
John Mann
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi John,
Cat yawls will never point as high as bermudan rigged boats - Don't ask me why, I'm no expert; but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly. I understand, though, that for optimal performance a cat yawl mainsail has to be cut quite full - moreso if the mast bends at all. The mizzen on the other hand should be cut pretty well flat.
The other thing about Micro is its long keel. That'll never be as efficient as a fin keel or centreboard at helping the boat to point high with minimal wetted surface.
To my mind there's nothing wrong with motor-sailing using your OB to help you upwind. If your OB is quiet enough, nobody'll notice ;-)
Bill
Cat yawls will never point as high as bermudan rigged boats - Don't ask me why, I'm no expert; but racers wouldn't all be using bermudan sloops if other rigs were as weatherly. I understand, though, that for optimal performance a cat yawl mainsail has to be cut quite full - moreso if the mast bends at all. The mizzen on the other hand should be cut pretty well flat.
The other thing about Micro is its long keel. That'll never be as efficient as a fin keel or centreboard at helping the boat to point high with minimal wetted surface.
To my mind there's nothing wrong with motor-sailing using your OB to help you upwind. If your OB is quiet enough, nobody'll notice ;-)
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: mannthree
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 9:24 AM
Subject: [bolger] Is There an Answer?
Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all the
characteristics of the Micro:
15' in length
Ease of Build
Simple rig
Self righting/bailing
Good size cockpit
Cosy Cabin
Cat Yawl
etc etc
but are more weatherly?
Also I've also noticed that as the slime builds up on the hull (I
keep her on a mooring and antifouled), the Micro tends not to point
as well to windward. Is this just my imagination or is there a
nautical reason for this? She's definitely slower so it looks like
time to scrub the bottom. I also think that the shape of the sails
may have something to do with this. All suggestions greatfully
received,
Cheers,
John Mann
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Is there, are there other Bolger designs with all the
characteristics of the Micro:
15' in length
Ease of Build
Simple rig
Self righting/bailing
Good size cockpit
Cosy Cabin
Cat Yawl
etc etc
but are more weatherly?
Also I've also noticed that as the slime builds up on the hull (I
keep her on a mooring and antifouled), the Micro tends not to point
as well to windward. Is this just my imagination or is there a
nautical reason for this? She's definitely slower so it looks like
time to scrub the bottom. I also think that the shape of the sails
may have something to do with this. All suggestions greatfully
received,
Cheers,
John Mann
characteristics of the Micro:
15' in length
Ease of Build
Simple rig
Self righting/bailing
Good size cockpit
Cosy Cabin
Cat Yawl
etc etc
but are more weatherly?
Also I've also noticed that as the slime builds up on the hull (I
keep her on a mooring and antifouled), the Micro tends not to point
as well to windward. Is this just my imagination or is there a
nautical reason for this? She's definitely slower so it looks like
time to scrub the bottom. I also think that the shape of the sails
may have something to do with this. All suggestions greatfully
received,
Cheers,
John Mann