Re: OldShoe light wind performance?
As a former Oldshoe sailor, I can vouch for everything John says.
Most of my sailing is on Lake Nockamixon, a Philly-area reservoir
surrounded by hills that caused shifting winds that get really light
in summer. Because of Oldshoe's uber-stability, I was able to slide
myself leeward, creating better underwater and sail shapes for the
light breezes. Even though the lake has a 10-horse limit, powerboats
still created enough wake to "slam on the brakes."
I chose not to motor, mostly because of the beauracracy, and found
that sculling with the large, plated rudder, for the last 100 feet
or so to the dock, served well enough. (It also allowed me to use
the motor mount as an boarding ladder when the rangers weren't
looking).
Given all that, I still wish I had her, but now have a Sea Pearl,
Delaware Ducker and sailing canoe to occupy my sailing time.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
suspect that large waves and motorboat wakes will stop her.
comfort and great security, but she won't carry them very far or
very fast.
sure is nice to fire up a motor when you need to get in.
Most of my sailing is on Lake Nockamixon, a Philly-area reservoir
surrounded by hills that caused shifting winds that get really light
in summer. Because of Oldshoe's uber-stability, I was able to slide
myself leeward, creating better underwater and sail shapes for the
light breezes. Even though the lake has a 10-horse limit, powerboats
still created enough wake to "slam on the brakes."
I chose not to motor, mostly because of the beauracracy, and found
that sculling with the large, plated rudder, for the last 100 feet
or so to the dock, served well enough. (It also allowed me to use
the motor mount as an boarding ladder when the rangers weren't
looking).
Given all that, I still wish I had her, but now have a Sea Pearl,
Delaware Ducker and sailing canoe to occupy my sailing time.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> A couple of comments on Old Shoe--a design I've studied at somelength.
> --Old Shoe is a big boat in terms of space, complexity, andmaterial.
> --Any boat with a short waterline and heavy displacement is morelikely to sail sedately than quickly. She won't accelerate and I
suspect that large waves and motorboat wakes will stop her.
> --I think Bolger drew Old Shoe for very relaxed sailing in arelatively small area. She will carry 4 adults in considerable
comfort and great security, but she won't carry them very far or
very fast.
> --I often sail on an inland lake and encounter very light winds.I have had to perfect by ghosting techniques, but in light air, it
sure is nice to fire up a motor when you need to get in.
>]
> John T
A couple of comments on Old Shoe--a design I've studied at some length.
--Old Shoe is a big boat in terms of space, complexity, and material.
--Any boat with a short waterline and heavy displacement is more likely to sail sedately than quickly. She won't accelerate and I suspect that large waves and motorboat wakes will stop her.
--I think Bolger drew Old Shoe for very relaxed sailing in a relatively small area. She will carry 4 adults in considerable comfort and great security, but she won't carry them very far or very fast.
--I often sail on an inland lake and encounter very light winds. I have had to perfect by ghosting techniques, but in light air, it sure is nice to fire up a motor when you need to get in.
John T
--Old Shoe is a big boat in terms of space, complexity, and material.
--Any boat with a short waterline and heavy displacement is more likely to sail sedately than quickly. She won't accelerate and I suspect that large waves and motorboat wakes will stop her.
--I think Bolger drew Old Shoe for very relaxed sailing in a relatively small area. She will carry 4 adults in considerable comfort and great security, but she won't carry them very far or very fast.
--I often sail on an inland lake and encounter very light winds. I have had to perfect by ghosting techniques, but in light air, it sure is nice to fire up a motor when you need to get in.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 6:24 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: OldShoe light wind performance?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ken_nyus" <ken_nyus@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I have looked at the Core Sound
> designs, they are nice but seem more complex than the Cat Ketch 17
> design.
>
> I know that OldShoe and CatKetch17 are two very different boats,
but
> they both meet some of my requirements:
Hi Ken,
I would be tempted to put in a request to PCB&F expressing your
concern. They have been upgrading a lot of the rigs on their older
designs to give more sail area for light winds.
One way is to add a spinnaker, together with a gaff main (Rig #51)
and another option is a balanced lug, which Bolger feels is a good
drifter. I think both options would work on Oldshoe since there is no
cuddy to interfere with mast placement.
A balanced lug would be my first choice, but then I think they are
really neat, but the mast would have to be located further aft I
would guess.
Cheers, Nels
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ken_nyus" <ken_nyus@y...> wrote:
I would be tempted to put in a request to PCB&F expressing your
concern. They have been upgrading a lot of the rigs on their older
designs to give more sail area for light winds.
One way is to add a spinnaker, together with a gaff main (Rig #51)
and another option is a balanced lug, which Bolger feels is a good
drifter. I think both options would work on Oldshoe since there is no
cuddy to interfere with mast placement.
A balanced lug would be my first choice, but then I think they are
really neat, but the mast would have to be located further aft I
would guess.
Cheers, Nels
>but
> Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I have looked at the Core Sound
> designs, they are nice but seem more complex than the Cat Ketch 17
> design.
>
> I know that OldShoe and CatKetch17 are two very different boats,
> they both meet some of my requirements:Hi Ken,
I would be tempted to put in a request to PCB&F expressing your
concern. They have been upgrading a lot of the rigs on their older
designs to give more sail area for light winds.
One way is to add a spinnaker, together with a gaff main (Rig #51)
and another option is a balanced lug, which Bolger feels is a good
drifter. I think both options would work on Oldshoe since there is no
cuddy to interfere with mast placement.
A balanced lug would be my first choice, but then I think they are
really neat, but the mast would have to be located further aft I
would guess.
Cheers, Nels
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I have looked at the Core Sound
designs, they are nice but seem more complex than the Cat Ketch 17
design.
I know that OldShoe and CatKetch17 are two very different boats, but
they both meet some of my requirements:
- small (even 17ft is starting to get big)
- light (the lighter the better with an upper limit of around 800lbs)
- simple rig (unstayed mast etc., I don't mind 2 simple sails)
- beachable
- low draft
- daysail 4
- sleep 2 (preferably in one large space)
I am a novice sailor so my plan is to explore Peconic Bay this
summer, learning more about sail boat control, mainly day sails so
trailering and easy launch and recovery is important, with some
capability to sleep 2 overnite, camp style under a tent. The Bay
generaly has light winds, and shallow waters. There can be a strong
tide pull, and short choppy waves, and depending on the day there
may be a fair amount of passing wakes from power boats or jet skis.
My ultimate goal is to have a pocket-cruiser with a cabin of some
type, but summer will be here before we know it, so I have scaled
back my plans to go for something like OldShoe or CatKetch17,
substituting a tent for the cabin. I hope to learn from whatever
boat I have this summer, and to make a good choice of a small boat
with a cabin for next summer.
Can you guys talk a little more about the difference between a
ballasted-keel boat like OldShoe and a centerboarder like CatKetch17?
designs, they are nice but seem more complex than the Cat Ketch 17
design.
I know that OldShoe and CatKetch17 are two very different boats, but
they both meet some of my requirements:
- small (even 17ft is starting to get big)
- light (the lighter the better with an upper limit of around 800lbs)
- simple rig (unstayed mast etc., I don't mind 2 simple sails)
- beachable
- low draft
- daysail 4
- sleep 2 (preferably in one large space)
I am a novice sailor so my plan is to explore Peconic Bay this
summer, learning more about sail boat control, mainly day sails so
trailering and easy launch and recovery is important, with some
capability to sleep 2 overnite, camp style under a tent. The Bay
generaly has light winds, and shallow waters. There can be a strong
tide pull, and short choppy waves, and depending on the day there
may be a fair amount of passing wakes from power boats or jet skis.
My ultimate goal is to have a pocket-cruiser with a cabin of some
type, but summer will be here before we know it, so I have scaled
back my plans to go for something like OldShoe or CatKetch17,
substituting a tent for the cabin. I hope to learn from whatever
boat I have this summer, and to make a good choice of a small boat
with a cabin for next summer.
Can you guys talk a little more about the difference between a
ballasted-keel boat like OldShoe and a centerboarder like CatKetch17?
I think you are right that OldShoe will not be especially good in
low wind conditions. For one thing, keels are more effective in a
fast-moving boat, and the OldShoe keel is not very aggressive in the
first place. The other boats are a lot bigger than OldShoe, though.
My first thought would be more like this:
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=400-
104&variation=&aitem=17&mitem=24
or this
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/rogue/index.htm
Peter
low wind conditions. For one thing, keels are more effective in a
fast-moving boat, and the OldShoe keel is not very aggressive in the
first place. The other boats are a lot bigger than OldShoe, though.
My first thought would be more like this:
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=400-
104&variation=&aitem=17&mitem=24
or this
http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/rogue/index.htm
Peter
> The other design I am thinking about is the Merten Cat Ketch 17,I guess by "Merten Cat Ketch 17" you mean:
> which will most likely give me excellent light wind performance, but
> it doesn't have the charm of OldShoe.
http://www.bateau.com/proddetail.php?prod=CK17
That 17 foot boat is not in the same class as the 12 foot Old Shoe.
with a big difference being that Old Shoe is ballasted,
and the CK17 is not.
If you are interested in the Cat Ketch 17, check out B & B yacht
designs "core sound" series. 15, 17 & 20 cat ketches.
I'm getting serious about building an oldshoe in the spring (I have
some spars done) but I'll be sailing SF Bay. Where it pretty much
howls during the summer.
designs "core sound" series. 15, 17 & 20 cat ketches.
I'm getting serious about building an oldshoe in the spring (I have
some spars done) but I'll be sailing SF Bay. Where it pretty much
howls during the summer.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "ken_nyus" <ken_nyus@y...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone with some OldShoe experience comment on the light wind
> performance of the Old Shoe design. I know that the sail area is
> fairly small for the weight of the boat, so I don't expect great
> performance. I am thinking about what design to build to sail on
> Peconic Bay between the forks at the end of Long Island. The wind
on
> most days can be fairly calm.
>
> I love the OldShoe design, but I am worried that it will be just a
> brick in the water on most days. I'm not looking for kick-butt
> planing, I just want to be able to slowly cruise the bay.
>
> The other design I am thinking about is the Merten Cat Ketch 17,
> which will most likely give me excellent light wind performance,
but
> it doesn't have the charm of OldShoe.
Can anyone with some OldShoe experience comment on the light wind
performance of the Old Shoe design. I know that the sail area is
fairly small for the weight of the boat, so I don't expect great
performance. I am thinking about what design to build to sail on
Peconic Bay between the forks at the end of Long Island. The wind on
most days can be fairly calm.
I love the OldShoe design, but I am worried that it will be just a
brick in the water on most days. I'm not looking for kick-butt
planing, I just want to be able to slowly cruise the bay.
The other design I am thinking about is the Merten Cat Ketch 17,
which will most likely give me excellent light wind performance, but
it doesn't have the charm of OldShoe.
performance of the Old Shoe design. I know that the sail area is
fairly small for the weight of the boat, so I don't expect great
performance. I am thinking about what design to build to sail on
Peconic Bay between the forks at the end of Long Island. The wind on
most days can be fairly calm.
I love the OldShoe design, but I am worried that it will be just a
brick in the water on most days. I'm not looking for kick-butt
planing, I just want to be able to slowly cruise the bay.
The other design I am thinking about is the Merten Cat Ketch 17,
which will most likely give me excellent light wind performance, but
it doesn't have the charm of OldShoe.