Re: encapsulation
I should add to this silver chloride is what is used in old photography it is photo turning purple then dark brown. It will stain you skin untill it wears off thd is poisonous to you. It is also a salt so bonding is not as good.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
>
> Salt added or clorinated water would produce silver cloride untill the chlorin is used up.
>
> Jon
I have a very large green house in the back yard I am building a 32' sternwheeler in. The wife will have a girl friend over and when I head out to work on it she will ask if I am going to see my mistress. It gets some interesting responses from her girl friends who then have to come see it. Kind of makes a man with a wife and mistress.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul & Susanne" <glassens@...> wrote:
>
> "Only the nasty has what works - kind of like girlfriends..." I'll have to show your comment to my wife. We share the email address where I receive the group's messages. She had seen the "re:encapsulation" in the message headings and asked if it had something to do wtih sexual function. Not wanting her to know that we are all so dull that we only discuss boat building, I hesitated a moment and then replied, "yes, most of the group members are suggesting Viagra, Cialis or suction pumps."
>
> Paul
"Only the nasty has what works - kind of like
girlfriends..." I'll have to show your comment to my wife. We
share the email address where I receive the group's messages. She had seen
the "re:encapsulation" in the message headings and asked if it had something to
do wtih sexual function. Not wanting her to know that we are all so
dull that we only discuss boat building, I hesitated a moment and then
replied, "yes, most of the group members are suggesting Viagra, Cialis or
suction pumps."
Paul
----- Original Message -----From:Jon & Wanda(Tink)Sent:Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:52 PMSubject:[SPAM][bolger] Re: encapsulationYou are 100% correct Greg. Only the nasty has what works. Kind of like girlfriends.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "Greg Stoll" <gregstoll80@ ...> wrote:
>
> The things in antifreeze that make it non-pet-friendly are the same parts that make it non-rot-friendly. Pet-friendly antifreeze will do nothing against rot.
>
> Or so I understand.. .
>
> It makes sense though.
>
> greg
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups. com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> >
> > I think the ethylene glycol (pet friendly type) technique is worth a try as it should be very cost effective. The bottom of my skiff is very nice 1/2" marine ply that is 2 layers thick. The sides have the bad side of the ACX glassed; when it rots it won't be too difficult to cut out the bad spots and repair, as the shape of the hull makes it quite easy to work on.
> >
> > The Pointy Skiff I built 22 years ago was built in a similar manner using marine grade for the bottom. No rot present to date. The sides had some delamination that were easily repaired using glass and filler. I just replaced the stem this year using a sawsall, fir, glass and epoxy. It is quite strong.
> >
> > When it stops raining in Boston, I will give it a try.
> > David Jost
> >
>
Salt added or clorinated water would produce silver cloride untill the chlorin is used up.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <robb@...> wrote:
>
> It doesn't matter how big the pieces of silver are.....they should go down in the water at least an inch. The instructions I gave you are complete. your right there isn't much conductivity at first but it will speed up as it is brewing. You can add salt to speed it up but then the colloidal silver may possibly stain the wood. Added to water base paints, it stops mildew from forming. They are using colloidal silver now on bandages and catheters to stop bacterial growth. They will soon be using it on the most little "towel" that comes underneath the chicken you buy at the supermarket to stop bacterial growth and e. coli growth on meat. Robb
It doesn't matter how big the pieces of silver
are.....they should go down in the water at least an inch. The
instructions I gave you are complete. your right there isn't much
conductivity at first but it will speed up as it is brewing. You can add
salt to speed it up but then the colloidal silver may possibly stain the
wood. Added to water base paints, it stops mildew from forming. They
are using colloidal silver now on bandages and catheters to stop bacterial
growth. They will soon be using it on the most little "towel" that comes
underneath the chicken you buy at the supermarket to stop bacterial growth and
e. coli growth on meat. Robb
----- Original Message -----From:Giuliano GiromettaSent:Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:36 AMSubject:Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
From: Robb <robb@...>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:43 AMok........you need two pieces of 99.9 silver...... You can get this at any
coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water....... .hang the two pieces of
silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water.......connect
12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....( one negative one
positive) come back periodically and check the solution.... .when it starts
to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts....... ..Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Geib" <LJGeib@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> Oh, no you don't.
>
> You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
>
> How do I get my free silver?
>
> Larry
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
>> silver.
>> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
>> practically
>> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
>> miraculous. Robb
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
The smell dissipates after about 2 weeks, but putting up with the smell for that period of time may save time later on.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the link. Good valuable informations.
> I don't think I will like to have a boat that smell so bad that repell even humans.
>
> Giuliano
>
> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, briggs monteith <zogumwesterly@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: briggs monteith <zogumwesterly@...>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 3:14 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here's the link:http://www.jamestowndistributors. com/userportal/ show_product. do?pid=170
>
> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, briggs monteith <zogumwesterly@ yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: briggs monteith <zogumwesterly@ yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 11:07 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> What about coopernol(I' m not sure about the spelling). It seems like kind of a simialar type of thing,a liquid vehicle carrying a heavy metal(couperous oxide). After soaking it in this kind of solution it dries with only the oxide remaing in the grain, I don't know, just asking.
> We used to use the stuff in the bilges of wooden boats.
> -Briggs
>
> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Giuliano Girometta <ggboat1@yahoo. com>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 10:36 AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How big the pieces of silver must be?
>
> About distilled water? This sound strange because there is little conductivity in distilled water. May be something missing here like some sort of saline solution added to the water ?.
>
> Giuliano
>
> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, Robb <robb@microcruiser. com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Robb <robb@microcruiser. com>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:43 AM
>
>
>
>
> ok........you need two pieces of 99.9 silver...... You can get this at any
> coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water....... .hang the two pieces of
> silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water....... connect
> 12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....( one negative one
> positive) come back periodically and check the solution.... .when it starts
> to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts....... ..Robb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Geib" <LJGeib@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups. com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
>
> > Oh, no you don't.
> >
> > You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
> >
> > How do I get my free silver?
> >
> > Larry
> >
> > On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
> >> silver.
> >> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
> >> practically
> >> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
> >> miraculous. Robb
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> > (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com Yahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Thanks for the link. Good valuable informations. I don't think I will like to have a boat that smell so bad that repell even humans. Giuliano --- OnWed, 6/24/09, briggs monteith<zogumwesterly@...>wrote:
|
Here's the link:http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=170--- OnWed, 6/24/09, briggs monteith<zogumwesterly@...>wrote: |
Borates are excellent but do not use them in any application underneath epoxy because they will reduce the epoxy strength and adhesion. About borates, considering thaat moisture is penetrating through paints and even epoxy, I was thinking if sprinkling a little bit of boric acid in the bilges will work as a preventative maintenance against rot. Also any little damaged area will expose the bare wood so the borates will penetrate into the damaged area and protect against rot. This will also protect the boat from other insects such roaches, silverfish, ants etc. You can but boric acid as an insecticide at any drug grocery or drug store just for a few $ per Lbs. Any one tought something similar. Giuliano --- OnWed, 6/24/09, mason smith<goodboat@...>wrote:
|
What about coopernol(I'm not sure about the spelling). It seems like kind of a simialar type of thing,a liquid vehicle carrying a heavy metal(couperous oxide). After soaking it in this kind of solution it dries with only the oxide remaing in the grain, I don't know, just asking. We used to use the stuff in the bilges of wooden boats. -Briggs --- OnWed, 6/24/09, Giuliano Girometta<ggboat1@...>wrote:
|
My personal favorite was a couple of years back when a company applied for regulatory approval in the US for a washing machine that released nano particles of silver into the wash to sterilize the clothes. They argued that the properties of silver were well known and that people had been eating off of silver for thousands of years so it must be safe.
Incredibly, apparently on the idea that regulation is in principle a bad thing, and without much if any other thought, the application was accepted until somebody heard about it and pointed out that if the nano silver actually worked to sterilize bacteria, that it could also attack other organisms, like um, the people wearing the "sterilized" clothes and anything else it came in contact with when the water was released back into the environment.
But in fact as I understand it, all metals have the potential to be poisonous if absorbed in sufficient quantities, lead and copper, and for a while there Tributyl tin are the ones we run into most with boats.
Cheers, Brian
Incredibly, apparently on the idea that regulation is in principle a bad thing, and without much if any other thought, the application was accepted until somebody heard about it and pointed out that if the nano silver actually worked to sterilize bacteria, that it could also attack other organisms, like um, the people wearing the "sterilized" clothes and anything else it came in contact with when the water was released back into the environment.
But in fact as I understand it, all metals have the potential to be poisonous if absorbed in sufficient quantities, lead and copper, and for a while there Tributyl tin are the ones we run into most with boats.
Cheers, Brian
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Pierce Nichols <rocketgeek@...> wrote:
>
> Silver salts typically have strong anti-microbial properties. This has led
> some not-so-bright people to drink a lot of them... and turn themselves
> blue.
>
> -p
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Kimbro, Ray (N-SAIC)
> <ray.kimbro@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > OK � color me stupid, but, please enlighten me. How does this solution
> > impede rot in wood?
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:*bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf
> > Of *Robb
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:43 AM
> > *To:*bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > *Subject:* Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ok........you need two pieces of 99.9 silver......You can get this at any
> >
> > coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water........hang the two pieces of
> > silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water......connect
> > 12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....(one negative one
> > positive) come back periodically and check the solution.....when it starts
> > to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts.........Robb
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Larry Geib" <LJGeib@... <LJGeib%40aol.com>>
> > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com<bolger%40yahoogroups.com>>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> >
> > > Oh, no you don't.
> > >
> > > You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
> > >
> > > How do I get my free silver?
> > >
> > > Larry
> > >
> > > On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
> > >> silver.
> > >> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
> > >> practically
> > >> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
> > >> miraculous. Robb
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > > horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> >
> > > (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>Yahoo!
> > > Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
How big the pieces of silver must be? About distilled water? This sound strange because there is little conductivity in distilled water. May be something missing here like some sort of saline solution added to the water ?. Giuliano --- OnWed, 6/24/09, Robb<robb@...>wrote:
|
Silver salts typically have strong anti-microbial properties. This has led some not-so-bright people to drink a lot of them... and turn themselves blue.
-p
-p
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 5:25 AM, Kimbro, Ray (N-SAIC)<ray.kimbro@...>wrote:OK – color me stupid, but, please enlighten me. How does this solution impede rot in wood?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfRobb
Sent:Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:43 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
ok........you need two pieces of 99.9 silver......You can get this at any
coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water........hang the two pieces of
silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water......connect
12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....(one negative one
positive) come back periodically and check the solution.....when it starts
to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts.........Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Geib" <LJGeib@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> Oh, no you don't.
>
> You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
>
> How do I get my free silver?
>
> Larry
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
>> silver.
>> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
>> practically
>> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
>> miraculous. Robb
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Mason here again and grateful for all this
thinking. Now that the thread has included preservatives, let's mention sodium
borate. It's available, or was, from Tim-Bor (?) in 80 lb bags for $100 or so,
and I think it has some application even in plywood boats where not
hard-finished on the inside. If you soak wood in a solution of borate,
especially when it's already full of water, the borate goes everywhere
the water is. Then when the wood dries, the borate remains in the cells,
ready to kill spores if they arrive, and remains until leached out. So it
figures that you can treat the wood, let it dry, sand and finish, and have some
insurance against rot should conditions for rot appear.
I have used this quite a bit to protect older
traditionally built boats I've restored, and try to to an maintenance treatment
every year or two on my 1963 Old Town lapstrake 20 footer I/O, which had some
transom and ash frame rot when I got it. What I did on that was soak the bottom
with water for a good while, then replace the water with a borate solution, then
dry, and finally treat with Deks Olje, all it would drink over a couple of days.
Theory was, the Deks Olje (a product I used a lot, now discontinued I think)
would fill the cells and bulk them up but remain in situ, trapping in the borate
crystals so they would not leach out. As far as I can tell, this is
working.
In plywood this would only obtain for the surface
ply, but if you can keep rot from starting in surface plies, and keep water out
of deeper plies, you're good. ---Mason
OK – color me stupid, but, please enlighten me. How does this solution impede rot in wood?
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfRobb
Sent:Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:43 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
ok........you need two pieces of 99.9
silver......You can get this at any
coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water........hang the two pieces of
silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water......connect
12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....(one negative one
positive) come back periodically and check the solution.....when it starts
to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts.........Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Geib" <LJGeib@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> Oh, no you don't.
>
> You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
>
> How do I get my free silver?
>
> Larry
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
>> silver.
>> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
>> practically
>> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
>> miraculous. Robb
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
ok........you need two pieces of 99.9 silver......You can get this at any
coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water........hang the two pieces of
silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water......connect
12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....(one negative one
positive) come back periodically and check the solution.....when it starts
to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts.........Robb
coin shop. Get a gallon of distilled water........hang the two pieces of
silver in so they are mostly submerged in the distilled water......connect
12 or 24 volts dc to the two pieces of silver.....(one negative one
positive) come back periodically and check the solution.....when it starts
to get dark it is finished. probably about 2 hours @ 24 volts.........Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Geib" <LJGeib@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> Oh, no you don't.
>
> You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
>
> How do I get my free silver?
>
> Larry
>
> On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
>> silver.
>> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
>> practically
>> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
>> miraculous. Robb
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Oh, no you don't.
You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
How do I get my free silver?
Larry
You can't drop something like that on us without some follow through.
How do I get my free silver?
Larry
On Jun 23, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Robb wrote:
>
>
> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal
> silver.
> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its
> practically
> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
> miraculous. Robb
>
>
I don't think thats the case with colloidal silver.....you can't tell it
from water and it completely dries leaving only microscopic particles of
silver behind which inhibits the growth of almost everything......Robb
from water and it completely dries leaving only microscopic particles of
silver behind which inhibits the growth of almost everything......Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:47 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> If I recall correctly it like many of the traditional solutions cause
> bunding problems for epoxy. Even the others are cheaper to home brew.
> Don't know where it was I read up on all the traditional and home brews
> din't keep the link after resurching alternatives.
>
> Jon
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <robb@...> wrote:
>>
>> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal silver.
>> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its practically
>> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
>> miraculous. Robb
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
If I recall correctly it like many of the traditional solutions cause bunding problems for epoxy. Even the others are cheaper to home brew. Don't know where it was I read up on all the traditional and home brews din't keep the link after resurching alternatives.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <robb@...> wrote:
>
> A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal silver.
> its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its practically
> free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
> miraculous. Robb
A better and safer alternative for anti rot for wood is Colloidal silver.
its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its practically
free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
miraculous. Robb
its way to expensive to buy but if you make it yourself its practically
free. Testing has been done with this stuff on wood and it is almost
miraculous. Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Stoll" <gregstoll80@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:19 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> The things in antifreeze that make it non-pet-friendly are the same parts
> that make it non-rot-friendly. Pet-friendly antifreeze will do nothing
> against rot.
>
> Or so I understand...
>
> It makes sense though.
>
> greg
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>>
>> I think the ethylene glycol (pet friendly type) technique is worth a try
>> as it should be very cost effective. The bottom of my skiff is very nice
>> 1/2" marine ply that is 2 layers thick. The sides have the bad side of
>> the ACX glassed; when it rots it won't be too difficult to cut out the
>> bad spots and repair, as the shape of the hull makes it quite easy to
>> work on.
>>
>> The Pointy Skiff I built 22 years ago was built in a similar manner using
>> marine grade for the bottom. No rot present to date. The sides had some
>> delamination that were easily repaired using glass and filler. I just
>> replaced the stem this year using a sawsall, fir, glass and epoxy. It is
>> quite strong.
>>
>> When it stops raining in Boston, I will give it a try.
>> David Jost
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
The biggest problem I see with this system is the voids that are in all ACX plywood. Voids are the #1 thing that hold water and cause plywood to seperate as well as a place for condensation with just moisture in the ply. 20 Oz cloth on the outside should be plenty heavy. The 5 oz.Dynell could be easly replaced with 2 layers of 6 oz. glass and save epoxy. Dynell ues 3 times the epoxy as glass just to wet out. For a small puncture the foam core needs to have a greater inpact to get through the ply. once through it localy stops the water by being closed cell. You know when it is a hard inpact and keep floating so you can pull the boat dry out and fix. Add to that the insalation factor to reduce condensation on the inside of a cabin. No fear here.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Larkin" <boblark@...> wrote:
>
> Mason, many thanks for sharing your experience. I read your comments a couple of times, as they have much to think about.
>
> Here is a related item for everyone's contemplation. The Birdwatcher II differs from the original in the use of foam sheeting laminates. The most complex layering occurs in the bottom, and I have posted a cross-section of this at
>http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_bottom2.jpg
> (If Yahoo adds spaces inside this, remove them to make the URL work). I can't count the number of places water could hide out if it could get in. This "modern" construction has many benefits, but is it a good idea?? Extending this, isn't it just begging the bigger question, "Is plywood a good idea?"
>
> I keep the dings repaired as they occur. I have the boat in the water no more than 2-weeks at a time, and it is under a roof cover when out. So, I doubt I will see problems for a long time, but the construction method is intended for much wetter situations. Lucky people get to have a boat in the water a lot!
>
> Just to think about.
>
> Bob
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
> >
> > I started this encapuslation thread so let me chime in here with what I meant. Coating and sheathing major hull parts on the outside is not encapsulation, and in plywood boat bottoms and chines I am all for it. With fir ply, I would sheathe the topsides too. My question was really about other topside and inside parts. --snip
>
You are 100% correct Greg. Only the nasty has what works. Kind of like girlfriends.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Stoll" <gregstoll80@...> wrote:
>
> The things in antifreeze that make it non-pet-friendly are the same parts that make it non-rot-friendly. Pet-friendly antifreeze will do nothing against rot.
>
> Or so I understand...
>
> It makes sense though.
>
> greg
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@> wrote:
> >
> > I think the ethylene glycol (pet friendly type) technique is worth a try as it should be very cost effective. The bottom of my skiff is very nice 1/2" marine ply that is 2 layers thick. The sides have the bad side of the ACX glassed; when it rots it won't be too difficult to cut out the bad spots and repair, as the shape of the hull makes it quite easy to work on.
> >
> > The Pointy Skiff I built 22 years ago was built in a similar manner using marine grade for the bottom. No rot present to date. The sides had some delamination that were easily repaired using glass and filler. I just replaced the stem this year using a sawsall, fir, glass and epoxy. It is quite strong.
> >
> > When it stops raining in Boston, I will give it a try.
> > David Jost
> >
>
Mason, many thanks for sharing your experience. I read your comments a couple of times, as they have much to think about.
Here is a related item for everyone's contemplation. The Birdwatcher II differs from the original in the use of foam sheeting laminates. The most complex layering occurs in the bottom, and I have posted a cross-section of this at
http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_bottom2.jpg
(If Yahoo adds spaces inside this, remove them to make the URL work). I can't count the number of places water could hide out if it could get in. This "modern" construction has many benefits, but is it a good idea?? Extending this, isn't it just begging the bigger question, "Is plywood a good idea?"
I keep the dings repaired as they occur. I have the boat in the water no more than 2-weeks at a time, and it is under a roof cover when out. So, I doubt I will see problems for a long time, but the construction method is intended for much wetter situations. Lucky people get to have a boat in the water a lot!
Just to think about.
Bob
Here is a related item for everyone's contemplation. The Birdwatcher II differs from the original in the use of foam sheeting laminates. The most complex layering occurs in the bottom, and I have posted a cross-section of this at
http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_bottom2.jpg
(If Yahoo adds spaces inside this, remove them to make the URL work). I can't count the number of places water could hide out if it could get in. This "modern" construction has many benefits, but is it a good idea?? Extending this, isn't it just begging the bigger question, "Is plywood a good idea?"
I keep the dings repaired as they occur. I have the boat in the water no more than 2-weeks at a time, and it is under a roof cover when out. So, I doubt I will see problems for a long time, but the construction method is intended for much wetter situations. Lucky people get to have a boat in the water a lot!
Just to think about.
Bob
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
>
> I started this encapuslation thread so let me chime in here with what I meant. Coating and sheathing major hull parts on the outside is not encapsulation, and in plywood boat bottoms and chines I am all for it. With fir ply, I would sheathe the topsides too. My question was really about other topside and inside parts. --snip
The things in antifreeze that make it non-pet-friendly are the same parts that make it non-rot-friendly. Pet-friendly antifreeze will do nothing against rot.
Or so I understand...
It makes sense though.
greg
Or so I understand...
It makes sense though.
greg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> I think the ethylene glycol (pet friendly type) technique is worth a try as it should be very cost effective. The bottom of my skiff is very nice 1/2" marine ply that is 2 layers thick. The sides have the bad side of the ACX glassed; when it rots it won't be too difficult to cut out the bad spots and repair, as the shape of the hull makes it quite easy to work on.
>
> The Pointy Skiff I built 22 years ago was built in a similar manner using marine grade for the bottom. No rot present to date. The sides had some delamination that were easily repaired using glass and filler. I just replaced the stem this year using a sawsall, fir, glass and epoxy. It is quite strong.
>
> When it stops raining in Boston, I will give it a try.
> David Jost
>
I think the ethylene glycol (pet friendly type) technique is worth a try as it should be very cost effective. The bottom of my skiff is very nice 1/2" marine ply that is 2 layers thick. The sides have the bad side of the ACX glassed; when it rots it won't be too difficult to cut out the bad spots and repair, as the shape of the hull makes it quite easy to work on.
The Pointy Skiff I built 22 years ago was built in a similar manner using marine grade for the bottom. No rot present to date. The sides had some delamination that were easily repaired using glass and filler. I just replaced the stem this year using a sawsall, fir, glass and epoxy. It is quite strong.
When it stops raining in Boston, I will give it a try.
David Jost
The Pointy Skiff I built 22 years ago was built in a similar manner using marine grade for the bottom. No rot present to date. The sides had some delamination that were easily repaired using glass and filler. I just replaced the stem this year using a sawsall, fir, glass and epoxy. It is quite strong.
When it stops raining in Boston, I will give it a try.
David Jost
Use of Ethel Glycal anti-freeze (non enviromentaly and pet friendly kind) works well and is not a problem for epoxy primers or paints. Brush it on heavy let it soak in and do it again some time several times. It needs to dry compleatly before covering. My take on encapsolation is glassing the outside and three tin coats on the inside of a open boat. Glassing is not needed like the outside except at rib joints and fillets that may seperate in a inpact, benches and lockers and soles that get heavy use. A closed boat should still be coated to protect from condensation. Paints like house paints are made for a vertical surface that the water runs off of and dries when it quits raining. Boats stored outside and tarped get condensation and when the tarp rips or leaks git filled with water. The more protection the better. Poor grades of plu Can be glassed with a light glass and sanded before putting on the hull. Another note is ply like ACX fir has voids and a microclimet in the core that will always eventualy cause a problem.
Jon
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
>
> Mason - great thread, and one I would love to have an answer to.
>
> My Diablo rotted out from the inside out. the boat was sheathed in Dynel set in epoxy. It appeared as if the rot started in the crevases in the bad side of the AC exterior that I used. I admit, I was brutal to this boat and neglected it for touch up etc... The area of the boat that was best intact was the bow section up to the first bulkhead where the interior was kept dry and was well protected by several coatings of epoxy, plus the seat on top of it. I suspect that a smooth surface coated in a couple coatings of epoxy may have done the trick to keep the crud off and the fungus out.
>
> What about coating the whole boat in anti-freeze prior to painting?
> Any chemists out there? I would love to know prior to finishing the inside of my 18' workskiff. The exterior is almost done.
>
> David Jost
>
Mason - great thread, and one I would love to have an answer to.
My Diablo rotted out from the inside out. the boat was sheathed in Dynel set in epoxy. It appeared as if the rot started in the crevases in the bad side of the AC exterior that I used. I admit, I was brutal to this boat and neglected it for touch up etc... The area of the boat that was best intact was the bow section up to the first bulkhead where the interior was kept dry and was well protected by several coatings of epoxy, plus the seat on top of it. I suspect that a smooth surface coated in a couple coatings of epoxy may have done the trick to keep the crud off and the fungus out.
What about coating the whole boat in anti-freeze prior to painting?
Any chemists out there? I would love to know prior to finishing the inside of my 18' workskiff. The exterior is almost done.
David Jost
My Diablo rotted out from the inside out. the boat was sheathed in Dynel set in epoxy. It appeared as if the rot started in the crevases in the bad side of the AC exterior that I used. I admit, I was brutal to this boat and neglected it for touch up etc... The area of the boat that was best intact was the bow section up to the first bulkhead where the interior was kept dry and was well protected by several coatings of epoxy, plus the seat on top of it. I suspect that a smooth surface coated in a couple coatings of epoxy may have done the trick to keep the crud off and the fungus out.
What about coating the whole boat in anti-freeze prior to painting?
Any chemists out there? I would love to know prior to finishing the inside of my 18' workskiff. The exterior is almost done.
David Jost
I started this encapuslation thread so let me chime
in here with what I meant. Coating and sheathing major hull parts on the outside
is not encapsulation, and in plywood boat bottoms and chines I am all for it.
With fir ply, I would sheathe the topsides too. My question was really about
other topside and inside parts.
I have used epoxy as a first coat on varnished
parts auite a lot, expecially System Three's clear-coat, a wonderful product in
my experience. I might do the same again, on spars, because it gets you off to a
fast start: over one coat of Clear Coat the first coat of varhish does not
penetrate, and the second is fully glossy, and can be wetsanded for a
fine result with the third.
But two or three coats of epoxy, before varnish,
though erhaps good on spars, would give me that problem I mention on rails, that
damage leads to water getting under it and on to separateion,
discoloration, and so on.
I think Gougeon is clear on this: if you're going
to epoxy in and out, you have to be very thorough, and any damage to the coating
is a danger.
In the case of his own liveaboard boat he resolved to leave the internal timber surfaces bare. Externally, it was well protected by paint (white latex house paint IIRC - readily touched up), and copper sheathing. IIRC, the resolution was to never again paint where the sun couldn't directly get to. He wrote he'd been asked why he was painting the inside, and had found himself stumped for an adequate answer - the surfaces were screened pretty much anyway by prints and bookshelves etc. For the smaller boats I don't recall him mentioning encapsulation as such, and I'd guess he'd mostly do similar to what Harold Payson advises in his various books.
Graeme
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "stephenlneal" <stephenlneal@...> wrote:
>
> Can any of you remember what Phil Bolger has said on this subject? I'm especially interested in this thread because of my interest in building Yonder.
> Stephen
Well for Loose Moose 2 it was always intended to be sheathed in fibergall and epoxy...
If you have questions about coatings I can't think of a better source than the Gougeon Brothers book. The pamplet/booklet from System 3 is also very good.
My take on building a lot of ply boats is that you need glass or polypro not for strength but for a matrix/scrim to be able to build up a thick enough coat of coating to be effective.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
If you have questions about coatings I can't think of a better source than the Gougeon Brothers book. The pamplet/booklet from System 3 is also very good.
My take on building a lot of ply boats is that you need glass or polypro not for strength but for a matrix/scrim to be able to build up a thick enough coat of coating to be effective.
Bob
http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
Can any of you remember what Phil Bolger has said on this subject? I'm especially interested in this thread because of my interest in building Yonder.
Stephen
Stephen
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
>
> Be careful when storing an unencapsulated boat upside down to make sure
> there is enough air circulation underneath. If it's too close to the ground,
> say, up on blocks, ground moisture will keep the air humid enough to allow
> for fungal growth. I ruined two boats that way.
>
> Fred
>
Be careful when storing an unencapsulated boat upside down to make sure there is enough air circulation underneath. If it's too close to the ground, say, up on blocks, ground moisture will keep the air humid enough to allow for fungal growth. I ruined two boats that way.
Fred
Fred
Hi, What is a little bit confusing with Dave Carnell pages is that in "Epoxy Know How" he said that ecapsulation is a waste of money and add of weight. While in Section "A2" Waterproofing Wood (under the article" Latex paint for boats" Dave is stating that the epoxy is letting the moisture into the wood but in order for rot to start the wood need also biological spores and oxygen and those last two can not penetrate through the epoxy. Seems to me that the two sentences are in contradiction. May be there is some confusion here between "Encapsulating" and "Coating" or (Saturating even if this is not true because epoxy does not penetrate the wood very deep) According to what I learned, Encapsulating is the process to glass/epoxy both sides of a boat (in and out). While if the boat is glassed/epoxy on the outside only and just coated on the inside this is not considered encapsulation. Epoxy can also be used without glass as a primer and barrier coat and is an excellent base for bright work where you can use three coats of epoxy and three coats of spar varnish instead of 12 coats of varnish. Epoxy is also supposed to stabilize the wood by slowing down the moisture changes and consequently avoid fast dimensional changes. Please continue this discussion and see if we are all tuned on the same meaning of what encapsulation means for you. Giuliano --- OnSun, 6/21/09, Robb<robb@...>wrote:
|
I have been encapsulating forever but I won't be doing it anymore. I have
built boats both ways as you describe below and I get a longer lasting boat
when the wood can breath. Trying to coat everything in glass can turn a
simple build into a huge job in a hurry. I'm slowly learning that when I
don't overdo the epoxy/glass part of building, I increase my enjoyment of
the build plus decrease the time drastically that it takes to complete the
boat. The older I get thore I realize how unnecessary it is to cover every
inch of wood on the boat. There are 50 year old boats still in service with
no epoxy or glass or any resin at all. Keep up with the paint
upkeep...........The boat will last a long time without epoxy with proper
care........Just my 2 cents worth.....Robb
built boats both ways as you describe below and I get a longer lasting boat
when the wood can breath. Trying to coat everything in glass can turn a
simple build into a huge job in a hurry. I'm slowly learning that when I
don't overdo the epoxy/glass part of building, I increase my enjoyment of
the build plus decrease the time drastically that it takes to complete the
boat. The older I get thore I realize how unnecessary it is to cover every
inch of wood on the boat. There are 50 year old boats still in service with
no epoxy or glass or any resin at all. Keep up with the paint
upkeep...........The boat will last a long time without epoxy with proper
care........Just my 2 cents worth.....Robb
----- Original Message -----
From: "oarmandt" <oarman89@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 10:35 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> There will never be a consensus on this issue. I had been in the
> encapsulation camp, but now am having my doubts. I have seen solid wood
> swell and tear 6 ounce fiberglass. (This was the rudder stock on my
> Birdwatcher. I put glass on the plywood sides and continued around the
> solid wood forward part.) Apparently, the water is still getting through.
> My latest, a Surf, has glass cloth and epoxy to protect the bottom from
> abrasion, but has no epoxy coating elsewhere. I built it this way to see
> how it holds up compared to my other boats.
>
> Dave Carnell, with a lot of experience and a solid technical background,
> concluded that encapsulation was worse than worthless. See the last
> paragraph on the epoxy knowhow page here:
>http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/
>
> The late Robb White, professional builder of some very attractive boats to
> his own designs, soaked everything in epoxy. His procedure was to heat up
> his whole shop and the assembled boat, then crank up the AC and coat
> everything with resin. As the wood cooled, the air contracting in the
> wood pores drew the resin into the wood. He used tulip poplar primarily.
> He would not build in plywood. Check out the boat porn here:
>http://www.robbwhite.com/boat.photos.html
>
> For small boats, I suspect that glassing the bottom (for hard chine types)
> or the whole exterior (for stitch and glue) and storing it upside down is
> sufficient.
>
> Doug
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adkgoodboat" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
>>
>> Friends all, this talk of encapsulation of the inside of a birdsmouth
>> mast has provoked me to start a new thread on encapsulation in general,
>> and I hope we'll get the benefit of collective wisdom on the subject.
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
According to what I learned, Is a good thing to put about 3 coats of epoxy and then some paint (I prefer clear so I can see if something is starting to develop underneath).on the inside in order to slow down the transfer of moisture, stabilize the wood and to block oxigen and the root spores from entering the wood. Encapsulating the inside with cloth is a high risk operation, because due to the complex structure with frames, gussets, bulkheads, and overhead areas, it is almost impossible to cover with cloth all the areas without lefting behind some air spots underneath the glass cloth. Those are the points where the rot start and because of the encapsulation, such rot can continue undetected and spread all over the hull. See for example the fiberglass boats commercialy manufactured. If you take apart one made with wooden reinforcements, you will notice that despite the fiberglass sound in sound condition, the wooden structural members after a few years are just a black spongy mess Giuliano --- OnSat, 6/20/09, adkgoodboat<masonsmith@...>wrote:
|
Paul,
My tongue-in-cheek summary of this thread was supposed to point out the lack of a
definite conclusion or solution. But it seems to have spurred more discussion. LOL
Concerning Mr. Bolger's view, I wonder where I got the impression he had jumped off the
encapsulation bandwagon. Perhaps, wrongly, from his comment that he no longer paints
boat interiors? From an article in MAIB? I don't know.
Thanks for pointing that out,
Stew
Paul Taylor wrote:
My tongue-in-cheek summary of this thread was supposed to point out the lack of a
definite conclusion or solution. But it seems to have spurred more discussion. LOL
Concerning Mr. Bolger's view, I wonder where I got the impression he had jumped off the
encapsulation bandwagon. Perhaps, wrongly, from his comment that he no longer paints
boat interiors? From an article in MAIB? I don't know.
Thanks for pointing that out,
Stew
Paul Taylor wrote:
> I built a Bolger 'Hawkeye' a couple of years ago. As I
> recall the recommendation on his excellent assembly
> instructions, which I carefully followed, was to coat
> all sheet edges AND ALL COMPONENTS pre-assembly with
> epoxy. Paul Taylor
> --- Stew Miller <junkmail@...> wrote:
>>Dang this encapsulation conundrum!
>>-Bolger and Buehler say let it breath; So, let's not
>>coat.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...> >
Dear Nels,
Amateur boatbuilders all over the world are using the Lenihan butt
joint to join two sheets of plywood because you end up with a full 16
foot sheet length - which you can't do when scarfing. And you now
don't want to take credit for it?
Sheesh! Next thing you will be denying that you invented the Lenihan
hollowed epoxy joint!
Sincerely, Nels :-)
Dear Nels,
> I figured out what the "Lenihan heater" thing was all about andis?
> wish Dave Zeiger the best of luck in the Duckworks contest but
> please enlighten me with exactly what a "Lenihan" type butt joint
>Peter,
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter"Lenihan type" Lenihan,seriously thinking of changing his name
> to Pierre La Banane,just to keep things fun...............
Amateur boatbuilders all over the world are using the Lenihan butt
joint to join two sheets of plywood because you end up with a full 16
foot sheet length - which you can't do when scarfing. And you now
don't want to take credit for it?
Sheesh! Next thing you will be denying that you invented the Lenihan
hollowed epoxy joint!
Sincerely, Nels :-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
I figured out what the "Lenihan heater" thing was all about and
wish Dave Zeiger the best of luck in the Duckworks contest but
please enlighten me with exactly what a "Lenihan" type butt joint is?
Sincerely,
Peter"Lenihan type" Lenihan,seriously thinking of changing his name
to Pierre La Banane,just to keep things fun...............
>sheets
> So if I am using the "Lenihan" type butt joint to join two
> would consider it as being > Cheers, NelsDear Nels,
I figured out what the "Lenihan heater" thing was all about and
wish Dave Zeiger the best of luck in the Duckworks contest but
please enlighten me with exactly what a "Lenihan" type butt joint is?
Sincerely,
Peter"Lenihan type" Lenihan,seriously thinking of changing his name
to Pierre La Banane,just to keep things fun...............
MDO can be had with an overlay on one side or both sides--I recommend both sides.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 10:34 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Stew Miller <junkmail@t...> wrote:
> P.S. is MDO encapsulated on the sides?
>
The stuff I bought is coated with resin on the edges and heat-
impregnated with resin on both sides. This is NOT epoxy though. It is
a resin dereived from wood from what I understand.
So if I am using the "Lenihan" type butt joint to join two sheets I
would consider it as being sealed and then would ecapsulate/tape over
the joint and glass the outside. With a boat like BWII with a double
bottom I would stagger the joints and glass the exterior up to the
boot strap.
So the part of the boat in the water, would have bottom paint,
epoxy/glass laminate, epoxy taped seams, epoxy enscapulation, heat
treated resin, waterproof exterior glues in the plywood, epoxy
filler, paint filler and paint inside.
So to say that the plywood would fill with water and rot out in 90
days is preposterous.
Cheers, Nels
Bolger rules!!!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I built a Bolger 'Hawkeye' a couple of years ago. As I
recall the recommendation on his excellent assembly
instructions, which I carefully followed, was to coat
all sheet edges AND ALL COMPONENTS pre-assembly with
epoxy. Paul Taylor
--- Stew Miller <junkmail@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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recall the recommendation on his excellent assembly
instructions, which I carefully followed, was to coat
all sheet edges AND ALL COMPONENTS pre-assembly with
epoxy. Paul Taylor
--- Stew Miller <junkmail@...> wrote:
> Dang this encapsulation conundrum!__________________________________________________
> -Bolger and Buehler say let it breath; So, let's not
> coat.
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Stew Miller <junkmail@t...> wrote:
impregnated with resin on both sides. This is NOT epoxy though. It is
a resin dereived from wood from what I understand.
So if I am using the "Lenihan" type butt joint to join two sheets I
would consider it as being sealed and then would ecapsulate/tape over
the joint and glass the outside. With a boat like BWII with a double
bottom I would stagger the joints and glass the exterior up to the
boot strap.
So the part of the boat in the water, would have bottom paint,
epoxy/glass laminate, epoxy taped seams, epoxy enscapulation, heat
treated resin, waterproof exterior glues in the plywood, epoxy
filler, paint filler and paint inside.
So to say that the plywood would fill with water and rot out in 90
days is preposterous.
Cheers, Nels
> P.S. is MDO encapsulated on the sides?The stuff I bought is coated with resin on the edges and heat-
>
impregnated with resin on both sides. This is NOT epoxy though. It is
a resin dereived from wood from what I understand.
So if I am using the "Lenihan" type butt joint to join two sheets I
would consider it as being sealed and then would ecapsulate/tape over
the joint and glass the outside. With a boat like BWII with a double
bottom I would stagger the joints and glass the exterior up to the
boot strap.
So the part of the boat in the water, would have bottom paint,
epoxy/glass laminate, epoxy taped seams, epoxy enscapulation, heat
treated resin, waterproof exterior glues in the plywood, epoxy
filler, paint filler and paint inside.
So to say that the plywood would fill with water and rot out in 90
days is preposterous.
Cheers, Nels
Dang this encapsulation conundrum!
-Gerr and the Gougeon Brothers say encapsulate; So, let's coat (where does Devlin weigh in?)
-Bolger and Buehler say let it breath; So, let's not coat.
-Carnell says epoxy encapsulated wood will become saturated enough to rot in 200 days;
Let's not coat.
-But Carnell also says that while epoxy will allow water to penetrate, it will exclude
oxygen and mold spores; Let's coat.
Oh, what's a man to do, what's a man to do?
I wrote Mr. Carnell about this, and his answer was very simple. He said, "I do highly
recommend that you seal exposed plywood edges with epoxy resin, not CPES [Stew:Clear
Penetrating Epoxy Sealer]. If your boat lives in the water it will get saturated, but
not necessarily rot. Use ethylene glycol antifreeze treatment, if you have any
concerns. Boats were built and sailed for a long time before epoxy". He states
elsewhere on his site that encapsulation is a waste of money.
I guess on an enclosed cabin I'll epoxy/fiberglass on the exterior, and paint the
interior. And on an open skiff I'll encapsulate.
No, wait...
Stew
P.S. is MDO encapsulated on the sides?
Ronald Fossum wrote:
-Gerr and the Gougeon Brothers say encapsulate; So, let's coat (where does Devlin weigh in?)
-Bolger and Buehler say let it breath; So, let's not coat.
-Carnell says epoxy encapsulated wood will become saturated enough to rot in 200 days;
Let's not coat.
-But Carnell also says that while epoxy will allow water to penetrate, it will exclude
oxygen and mold spores; Let's coat.
Oh, what's a man to do, what's a man to do?
I wrote Mr. Carnell about this, and his answer was very simple. He said, "I do highly
recommend that you seal exposed plywood edges with epoxy resin, not CPES [Stew:Clear
Penetrating Epoxy Sealer]. If your boat lives in the water it will get saturated, but
not necessarily rot. Use ethylene glycol antifreeze treatment, if you have any
concerns. Boats were built and sailed for a long time before epoxy". He states
elsewhere on his site that encapsulation is a waste of money.
I guess on an enclosed cabin I'll epoxy/fiberglass on the exterior, and paint the
interior. And on an open skiff I'll encapsulate.
No, wait...
Stew
P.S. is MDO encapsulated on the sides?
Ronald Fossum wrote:
> Don't know what anyone here thinks about David Gerr. I've found his all his books to be very informative as well as technically excellent. In his "The Elements of Boat Strength", copyright 2000, page 18:
>
> " AVOIDING NAKED WOOD...
Don't know what anyone here thinks about David Gerr. I've found his all his books to be very informative as well as technically excellent. In his "The Elements of Boat Strength", copyright 2000, page 18:
" AVOIDING NAKED WOOD
"Solid-wood or solid-plywood cores are frequently used in fiberglass hulls. Also wood cleats and panels are almost always found in the interior, whether for supporting machinery or joinerwork. For structural woodwork (as opposed to interior cabinetry), there must be no bare wood in the boat - period! Every single piece of wood simply must be sealed (see photo on p. 333). If it isn't, not only can it rot, but worse still, it also will expand and contract from the constant moisture changes found on any boat. In time - sometimes an amazingly short time - this will cause the wood to split and separate from the FRP structure - bad news, indeed. Usually, wood that is otherwise exposed but is in contact with the glass structure should be coated liberally with resin and sprayed with gelcoat. Unless you've got a good eye, it can even be hard to spot timber that has been so treated. If the wood is not partially laminated or structurally fastened to the glass structure, it's okay to set it in marine bedding compound and seal it with Cuprinol, or to paint it - but coat it with something, coat it all around, and coat it well."
Ron Fossum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
" AVOIDING NAKED WOOD
"Solid-wood or solid-plywood cores are frequently used in fiberglass hulls. Also wood cleats and panels are almost always found in the interior, whether for supporting machinery or joinerwork. For structural woodwork (as opposed to interior cabinetry), there must be no bare wood in the boat - period! Every single piece of wood simply must be sealed (see photo on p. 333). If it isn't, not only can it rot, but worse still, it also will expand and contract from the constant moisture changes found on any boat. In time - sometimes an amazingly short time - this will cause the wood to split and separate from the FRP structure - bad news, indeed. Usually, wood that is otherwise exposed but is in contact with the glass structure should be coated liberally with resin and sprayed with gelcoat. Unless you've got a good eye, it can even be hard to spot timber that has been so treated. If the wood is not partially laminated or structurally fastened to the glass structure, it's okay to set it in marine bedding compound and seal it with Cuprinol, or to paint it - but coat it with something, coat it all around, and coat it well."
Ron Fossum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Fountain" <fountainb@s...>
wrote:
What I suggested in my earlier email, though, was Bruynzeel Regina Mahogany ply - which uses a much more durable species. The other thing I've found with cheaper hardwood ply ( - and I use it when appropriate - ) is that the outer veneers are extremely thin - less than 1/32" in many cases, while the inner layer(s) are few, thick, and porous. They frequently contain voids and (if you plane off the outer layer) often ill-fitting patches that create voids that are invisible from the edges. The best quality marine ply has many layers of fine quality veneers, of uniform thickness (usually about 1/16"). These are much less likely to wick water far into the heart of the ply than the blotting-paper-like inner veneers of the cheap stuff, when the boat is (inevitably) dinged.
The other nice thing about the 'good stuff' is that it bends very nicely and uniformly with no kinks and greenstick fractures when you torture it (as some of us sadists greatly enjoy doing!). Finally, you can sand it with confidence without worrying about going through the outer veneer (as I have sometimes done in a frenzy of sanding activity to achieve that Steinway Grand finish).
A few years ago I visited Jack Chippendale, the builder of many clinker-ply racing dingies (like the Merlin Rocket) as well as several of Iain Oughtred's double enders. Many of his Rockets were built in the 50s, from fine quality plywood, glued with Cascamite ( - the UK equivalent of Weldwood) and I can testify that they are as nice today as when they were first built - just maintained nicely each winter and painted with conventional marine enamel, or varnished with a high quality yacht varnish.
I wonder how many of our 'encapsulated' boats will still be pristine in 50 years time?
Bill (- who knows to his cost that epoxy encapsulation can keep water IN as well as keeping it out.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
wrote:
>> It might be worth noting that expensive marine ply is notIf I might be a bit picky - Bruce is absolutely correct about Gaboon (a.k.a. okume) being a non-durable species - which is why gaboon is almost invariably epoxied. As you say, it's the wood of choice where light weight is at a premium - as in kayaks for example.
>> necessarily any more rot-resistant than the cheap stuff.
>> Gaboon is usually considered to be the most desirable ply,
>> but it is not particularly rot resistant. The premium comes
>> because it is lightweight.
>>
>> Bruce Fountain
>> Systems Engineer
>> Union Switch & Signal
>> Perth, Western Australia
>Absolutely and perfectly right on Bruce!Especially that last
>sentence......wish I could have said it as clearly!
>Peter Lenihan
What I suggested in my earlier email, though, was Bruynzeel Regina Mahogany ply - which uses a much more durable species. The other thing I've found with cheaper hardwood ply ( - and I use it when appropriate - ) is that the outer veneers are extremely thin - less than 1/32" in many cases, while the inner layer(s) are few, thick, and porous. They frequently contain voids and (if you plane off the outer layer) often ill-fitting patches that create voids that are invisible from the edges. The best quality marine ply has many layers of fine quality veneers, of uniform thickness (usually about 1/16"). These are much less likely to wick water far into the heart of the ply than the blotting-paper-like inner veneers of the cheap stuff, when the boat is (inevitably) dinged.
The other nice thing about the 'good stuff' is that it bends very nicely and uniformly with no kinks and greenstick fractures when you torture it (as some of us sadists greatly enjoy doing!). Finally, you can sand it with confidence without worrying about going through the outer veneer (as I have sometimes done in a frenzy of sanding activity to achieve that Steinway Grand finish).
A few years ago I visited Jack Chippendale, the builder of many clinker-ply racing dingies (like the Merlin Rocket) as well as several of Iain Oughtred's double enders. Many of his Rockets were built in the 50s, from fine quality plywood, glued with Cascamite ( - the UK equivalent of Weldwood) and I can testify that they are as nice today as when they were first built - just maintained nicely each winter and painted with conventional marine enamel, or varnished with a high quality yacht varnish.
I wonder how many of our 'encapsulated' boats will still be pristine in 50 years time?
Bill (- who knows to his cost that epoxy encapsulation can keep water IN as well as keeping it out.)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Fountain" <fountainb@s...>
wrote:
sentence......wish I could have said it as clearly!
Peter Lenihan,usually not at a lose for words but most certainly in
need of a strict editior :-)
wrote:
> It might be worth noting that expensive marine ply is notAbsolutely and perfectly right on Bruce!Especially that last
> necessarily any more rot-resistant than the cheap stuff.
> Gaboon is usually considered to be the most desirable ply,
> but it is not particularly rot resistant. The premium comes
> because it is lightweight.
>
> Bruce Fountain
> Systems Engineer
> Union Switch & Signal
> Perth, Western Australia
sentence......wish I could have said it as clearly!
Peter Lenihan,usually not at a lose for words but most certainly in
need of a strict editior :-)
Will Samson wrote:
necessarily any more rot-resistant than the cheap stuff.
Gaboon is usually considered to be the most desirable ply,
but it is not particularly rot resistant. The premium comes
because it is lightweight.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> One solution to questionable quality ply is to alwaysIt might be worth noting that expensive marine ply is not
> go for the best - like Bruynzeel Regina Mahogany for
> example. No question of poor quality there - Bruynzeel
> has built its reputation on supplying the best plywood,
> and they're not going to risk that by selling anything
> that's below par.
necessarily any more rot-resistant than the cheap stuff.
Gaboon is usually considered to be the most desirable ply,
but it is not particularly rot resistant. The premium comes
because it is lightweight.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Anderson" <paa@a...> wrote:
epoxy. Thus, I was surprised to read on Dave Carnell's website
that he thinks that it is a waste of time and money.
Believe or not,there are some folks who think boats,especially
wooden boats,are a complete and utter waste of time and money too!
Maybe that's why golf is so popular?
Our hero,Sir Bolger,considers all non-commercial boats to be nothing
but toys....
Where does it all end?
Well,to begin, it is your boat and you are building it, along with
financing it. Hopefully too, you have some sort of idea of how you
intend on using this boat once it is launched.Furthermore, you have
already built a few plywood boats and thus should have a pretty good
handle on what has worked for you(and why) and what has failed(and
why)...no?
I say stick to what has proven effective for you(to your standards,
aesthetics etc) in your area,context,situation...whatever,and you
won't be dissappointed.
Don't believe everything Nels tells ya either.He's just a praire
pirate sailing on seas of wheat who has probably forgotten more then
I'll ever know.He also knows a whole lot more about
weather,especially cold wether,then he lets onto :-)
Happy Chebacco building and do post pictures :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who wanted to be born in Lunenburg but parents thought
otherwise,much to my chagrin.............
> I believe that most persons who have built the boat recommendencapsulating the plywood interior surfaces with a coat of two of
epoxy. Thus, I was surprised to read on Dave Carnell's website
that he thinks that it is a waste of time and money.
Believe or not,there are some folks who think boats,especially
wooden boats,are a complete and utter waste of time and money too!
Maybe that's why golf is so popular?
Our hero,Sir Bolger,considers all non-commercial boats to be nothing
but toys....
Where does it all end?
Well,to begin, it is your boat and you are building it, along with
financing it. Hopefully too, you have some sort of idea of how you
intend on using this boat once it is launched.Furthermore, you have
already built a few plywood boats and thus should have a pretty good
handle on what has worked for you(and why) and what has failed(and
why)...no?
I say stick to what has proven effective for you(to your standards,
aesthetics etc) in your area,context,situation...whatever,and you
won't be dissappointed.
Don't believe everything Nels tells ya either.He's just a praire
pirate sailing on seas of wheat who has probably forgotten more then
I'll ever know.He also knows a whole lot more about
weather,especially cold wether,then he lets onto :-)
Happy Chebacco building and do post pictures :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who wanted to be born in Lunenburg but parents thought
otherwise,much to my chagrin.............
Boatbuilders all have their priorities, but...I would suggest that when you consider time, blood, sweat, and tears (to say nothing of trailers, sails, motors, anchors, PFD's, etc), the cost of materials is a relatively small part of theoverall cost of a homebuilt boat. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to use anything except the very best you can find. Unless you are shooting for a disposable boat (and there is a place for these), it doesn't make sense to economize on materials.
Additional factors are tradeoffs in materials. Epoxy isn't cheap. Consider the additional cost of good plywood vs, the additional cost of fiberglassing fir or pine plywood. Consider the time and aggrevation necessary to sand fiberglass (isn't there a Cebacco named "Itchy and Scratchy"?) and marine grade plywood starts to look pretty good.
John T
Additional factors are tradeoffs in materials. Epoxy isn't cheap. Consider the additional cost of good plywood vs, the additional cost of fiberglassing fir or pine plywood. Consider the time and aggrevation necessary to sand fiberglass (isn't there a Cebacco named "Itchy and Scratchy"?) and marine grade plywood starts to look pretty good.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Samson
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:01 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
One solution to questionable quality ply is to always go for the best - like Bruynzeel Regina Mahogany for example. No question of poor quality there - Bruynzeel has built its reputation on supplying the best plywood, and they're not going to risk that by selling anything that's below par.
OTOH not many home boatbuilders are prepared to pay the asking price.
I'm not being a snob here, and luan has its place for quickly-built, short-lived boats - I've used it often enough myself, and it does reasonably well for 10 years or more when properly encapsulated ( - that is the Indonesian variety. The Brazilian stuff I've seen is nothing like as nice).
The choice seems to boil down to:
If you have a fixed budget, either build a small boat using nothing but the best, or a bigger boat cutting corners on quality of materials.
This is on the assumption that you give your time freely and don't count it as part of the budget; which is very different from professional builders for whom time is the biggest factor and who would never dream of skimping on materials.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One solution to questionable quality ply is to always go for the best - like Bruynzeel Regina Mahogany for example. No question of poor quality there - Bruynzeel has built its reputation on supplying the best plywood, and they're not going to risk that by selling anything that's below par.
OTOH not many home boatbuilders are prepared to pay the asking price.
I'm not being a snob here, and luan has its place for quickly-built, short-lived boats - I've used it often enough myself, and it does reasonably well for 10 years or more when properly encapsulated ( - that is the Indonesian variety. The Brazilian stuff I've seen is nothing like as nice).
The choice seems to boil down to:
If you have a fixed budget, either build a small boat using nothing but the best, or a bigger boat cutting corners on quality of materials.
This is on the assumption that you give your time freely and don't count it as part of the budget; which is very different from professional builders for whom time is the biggest factor and who would never dream of skimping on materials.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OTOH not many home boatbuilders are prepared to pay the asking price.
I'm not being a snob here, and luan has its place for quickly-built, short-lived boats - I've used it often enough myself, and it does reasonably well for 10 years or more when properly encapsulated ( - that is the Indonesian variety. The Brazilian stuff I've seen is nothing like as nice).
The choice seems to boil down to:
If you have a fixed budget, either build a small boat using nothing but the best, or a bigger boat cutting corners on quality of materials.
This is on the assumption that you give your time freely and don't count it as part of the budget; which is very different from professional builders for whom time is the biggest factor and who would never dream of skimping on materials.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I grew up in Oregon and worked in the logging industry. Juniper is
indeed highly resistant to rot as it is of the cedar family. It is
also incredibly tough, not at all like cedar in this regard. We used
to cut juniper for fenceposts. It will wear out a chain saw quickly,
but once in the ground, it stood there forever.
However, unless juniper is going to be raised on farms I cannot see
how it will ever become a viable source of veneer or dimensional
lumber. Juniper grows slowly, has substantial taper and is difficult
to process. Also, there isn't that much of it in the wild.
The logging industry in the northwest is practically dead. Areas where
juniper grows (John Day, Burns, Prineville) are the hardest hit.
Perhaps the Associated Oregon Loggers is attempting to rally support
for this idea, but I would not get my hopes up.
Juniper would make great boat wood. I hope my pessimism is unfounded.
It would be nice to see central Oregon and Washington productive again
instead of being just a playground for the Sierra Club.
Doug
indeed highly resistant to rot as it is of the cedar family. It is
also incredibly tough, not at all like cedar in this regard. We used
to cut juniper for fenceposts. It will wear out a chain saw quickly,
but once in the ground, it stood there forever.
However, unless juniper is going to be raised on farms I cannot see
how it will ever become a viable source of veneer or dimensional
lumber. Juniper grows slowly, has substantial taper and is difficult
to process. Also, there isn't that much of it in the wild.
The logging industry in the northwest is practically dead. Areas where
juniper grows (John Day, Burns, Prineville) are the hardest hit.
Perhaps the Associated Oregon Loggers is attempting to rally support
for this idea, but I would not get my hopes up.
Juniper would make great boat wood. I hope my pessimism is unfounded.
It would be nice to see central Oregon and Washington productive again
instead of being just a playground for the Sierra Club.
Doug
> ----- Original Message -----posts
> From: John Cupp
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:39 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
>
>
>
> I have given up using Plywood for boatbuilding. Not because it was
> not once the best way to build a boat but now I cannot trust the
> suppliers of plywood and the offshore makers. In the last five
> years most of the good sources of plywood have dried up and I think
> never to recover again.
>
> I will explain what I am using now and it is inexpensive and has
> been considered a weed in the Pacific Northwest. This tree can lay
> dead on the ground for twenty years and never rot. No indigenous
> bug or tropical bug will eat its wood and it is now selling for
> pennies a board foot. It makes some of the best wood for cold
> molding that can be used and if it is soaked in freshwater it is
> impervious to rot. I am now talking about the lowly Juniper tree.
> They are making veneer from it in many lengths and thick nesses. My
> last Oakume plywood project that I sealed and vacuumed bagged last
> winter now has tell tail dark edges where rot has sneaked in and is
> deteriorating the strength of my project.
>
> With Juniper the veneer can have small knots but in cold molding it
> will not effect the strength in three or four layers. They have
> priced our boatbuilding out of the use of timbers, plywood and
> carbon fiber. Now a plague to farmers may have come to save
> backyard boat builders and regardless the price of the glue the wood
> may be cheap enough to give our boat building a new lift! I am
> planning a new article introducing this new wood, the supplier, the
> cost and the strength! Hopefully a boat of sufficient curves to
> show how it can be formed.
>
> My outlook on the condition of our modern plywood is a disaster.
> The suppliers of plywood are raping boat builders. You can buy
> cabinet grade A double side curly maple finish ply for less than
> boat ply. Hopefully this new product will change boatbuilding stop
> me from going fully over to Ferro-Cement. More news soon at
> Duckworks.
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
> <John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> > I'm currently using MDO on a 19 ft boat and I like it very much.
> However, it currently seems to be available in 1/2" and 3/8". If
> you are contemplating a small boat which uses 1/4", MDO is not an
> option.
> >
> > Although I can appreciate the urge to economize (and there have
> been times in my life when the options were go cheap or don't go at
> all), the incremental cost of marine grade plywood over lumber yard
> plywood doesn't amount to all that much on a 4 or 5 sheet boat.
> >
> > If I had to economize, I would choose polyester resin over epoxy
> for all fiberglassing. For a boat that lives on a trailer, I
> believe it is about as good and it is a lot cheaper than epoxy. If
> you consider all the Mirror dinghies that were built, polyester has
> probably been used on more stitch and glue boats than any other
> resin. Mirrors can rot out, but even when raced in heavy air, I'm
> not aware that any ever came apart!
> >
> > John T
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Harry James
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> >
> >
> > I will stand corrected on this one. When I say Marine plywood, I
> include
> > the high quality MDO's when I think about it. The nearest source
> for
> > both is 700 miles away..
> >
> > HJ
> >
> > Nels wrote:
> >
> > >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are
> going
> > >>
> > >>
> > >to
> > >
> > >
> > >>spend more than two days building a boat then you should not
> use
> > >>anything but high quality plywood. >
> > >>If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't
> waste
> > >>
> > >>
> > >your
> > >
> > >
> > >>time building with anything but marine plywood.
> > >>
> > >>HJ
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >What impressed me about the Crezon MDO is that it is completely
> > >sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges
> are
> > >sealed on the stuff I bought.
> > >
> > >None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of
> course
> > >and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets.
> Both
> > >types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones are
> all
> > >equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outer
> > >veneers.
> > >
> > >So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality
> in this
> > >part of the country.
> > >
> > >Cheers, Nels
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Bolger rules!!!
> > >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> > >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
> Fred' posts
> > >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
> away
> > >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
> Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
> away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
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> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups LinksService.
>
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>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John--Part of the problem is that boat builders make up a tiny fraction of the plywood market, and we don't have enough marketing clout to compel the manufacturers to build a product that meets our needs. If we want to build with plywood, I think our best bet is to find buyers who have similiar needs and who buy large enough quantities to get the manufacturers' attention. The closest I have found so far is people who make outdoor/highway signs; MDO has been developed for them and It comes pretty close to what boatbuilders need.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: John Cupp
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
I have given up using Plywood for boatbuilding. Not because it was
not once the best way to build a boat but now I cannot trust the
suppliers of plywood and the offshore makers. In the last five
years most of the good sources of plywood have dried up and I think
never to recover again.
I will explain what I am using now and it is inexpensive and has
been considered a weed in the Pacific Northwest. This tree can lay
dead on the ground for twenty years and never rot. No indigenous
bug or tropical bug will eat its wood and it is now selling for
pennies a board foot. It makes some of the best wood for cold
molding that can be used and if it is soaked in freshwater it is
impervious to rot. I am now talking about the lowly Juniper tree.
They are making veneer from it in many lengths and thick nesses. My
last Oakume plywood project that I sealed and vacuumed bagged last
winter now has tell tail dark edges where rot has sneaked in and is
deteriorating the strength of my project.
With Juniper the veneer can have small knots but in cold molding it
will not effect the strength in three or four layers. They have
priced our boatbuilding out of the use of timbers, plywood and
carbon fiber. Now a plague to farmers may have come to save
backyard boat builders and regardless the price of the glue the wood
may be cheap enough to give our boat building a new lift! I am
planning a new article introducing this new wood, the supplier, the
cost and the strength! Hopefully a boat of sufficient curves to
show how it can be formed.
My outlook on the condition of our modern plywood is a disaster.
The suppliers of plywood are raping boat builders. You can buy
cabinet grade A double side curly maple finish ply for less than
boat ply. Hopefully this new product will change boatbuilding stop
me from going fully over to Ferro-Cement. More news soon at
Duckworks.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> I'm currently using MDO on a 19 ft boat and I like it very much.
However, it currently seems to be available in 1/2" and 3/8". If
you are contemplating a small boat which uses 1/4", MDO is not an
option.
>
> Although I can appreciate the urge to economize (and there have
been times in my life when the options were go cheap or don't go at
all), the incremental cost of marine grade plywood over lumber yard
plywood doesn't amount to all that much on a 4 or 5 sheet boat.
>
> If I had to economize, I would choose polyester resin over epoxy
for all fiberglassing. For a boat that lives on a trailer, I
believe it is about as good and it is a lot cheaper than epoxy. If
you consider all the Mirror dinghies that were built, polyester has
probably been used on more stitch and glue boats than any other
resin. Mirrors can rot out, but even when raced in heavy air, I'm
not aware that any ever came apart!
>
> John T
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Harry James
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
>
>
> I will stand corrected on this one. When I say Marine plywood, I
include
> the high quality MDO's when I think about it. The nearest source
for
> both is 700 miles away..
>
> HJ
>
> Nels wrote:
>
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are
going
> >>
> >>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>spend more than two days building a boat then you should not
use
> >>anything but high quality plywood. >
> >>If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't
waste
> >>
> >>
> >your
> >
> >
> >>time building with anything but marine plywood.
> >>
> >>HJ
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >What impressed me about the Crezon MDO is that it is completely
> >sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges
are
> >sealed on the stuff I bought.
> >
> >None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of
course
> >and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets.
Both
> >types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones are
all
> >equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outer
> >veneers.
> >
> >So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality
in this
> >part of the country.
> >
> >Cheers, Nels
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
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bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have a peice of raw MDO that has been out in the weather in may NW
backyard for over 5 years right next to a peice of ABX. The MDO is
weathered on the open edge but even the edge in the mud is solid. The
ABX has moss growing on it and sepperating in places as well as realy
checked. The facing on the MDO makes it stiffer so it will not bend
as well no mater how much hot water you use but it is solid. Glen-L
and Clark Craft both have good info on ply does and dont's as well as
Epoxy-V-Polyester. As well as Devlin"s Boat Building.
Jon
backyard for over 5 years right next to a peice of ABX. The MDO is
weathered on the open edge but even the edge in the mud is solid. The
ABX has moss growing on it and sepperating in places as well as realy
checked. The facing on the MDO makes it stiffer so it will not bend
as well no mater how much hot water you use but it is solid. Glen-L
and Clark Craft both have good info on ply does and dont's as well as
Epoxy-V-Polyester. As well as Devlin"s Boat Building.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Cupp" <john@k...> wrote:
>
> I have given up using Plywood for boatbuilding. Not because it was
> not once the best way to build a boat but now I cannot trust the
> suppliers of plywood and the offshore makers. In the last five
> years most of the good sources of plywood have dried up and I think
> never to recover again.
>
> I will explain what I am using now and it is inexpensive and has
> been considered a weed in the Pacific Northwest. This tree can lay
> dead on the ground for twenty years and never rot. No indigenous
> bug or tropical bug will eat its wood and it is now selling for
> pennies a board foot. It makes some of the best wood for cold
> molding that can be used and if it is soaked in freshwater it is
> impervious to rot. I am now talking about the lowly Juniper tree.
> They are making veneer from it in many lengths and thick nesses.
My
> last Oakume plywood project that I sealed and vacuumed bagged last
> winter now has tell tail dark edges where rot has sneaked in and is
> deteriorating the strength of my project.
>
I have given up using Plywood for boatbuilding. Not because it was
not once the best way to build a boat but now I cannot trust the
suppliers of plywood and the offshore makers. In the last five
years most of the good sources of plywood have dried up and I think
never to recover again.
I will explain what I am using now and it is inexpensive and has
been considered a weed in the Pacific Northwest. This tree can lay
dead on the ground for twenty years and never rot. No indigenous
bug or tropical bug will eat its wood and it is now selling for
pennies a board foot. It makes some of the best wood for cold
molding that can be used and if it is soaked in freshwater it is
impervious to rot. I am now talking about the lowly Juniper tree.
They are making veneer from it in many lengths and thick nesses. My
last Oakume plywood project that I sealed and vacuumed bagged last
winter now has tell tail dark edges where rot has sneaked in and is
deteriorating the strength of my project.
With Juniper the veneer can have small knots but in cold molding it
will not effect the strength in three or four layers. They have
priced our boatbuilding out of the use of timbers, plywood and
carbon fiber. Now a plague to farmers may have come to save
backyard boat builders and regardless the price of the glue the wood
may be cheap enough to give our boat building a new lift! I am
planning a new article introducing this new wood, the supplier, the
cost and the strength! Hopefully a boat of sufficient curves to
show how it can be formed.
My outlook on the condition of our modern plywood is a disaster.
The suppliers of plywood are raping boat builders. You can buy
cabinet grade A double side curly maple finish ply for less than
boat ply. Hopefully this new product will change boatbuilding stop
me from going fully over to Ferro-Cement. More news soon at
Duckworks.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
you are contemplating a small boat which uses 1/4", MDO is not an
option.
all), the incremental cost of marine grade plywood over lumber yard
plywood doesn't amount to all that much on a 4 or 5 sheet boat.
believe it is about as good and it is a lot cheaper than epoxy. If
you consider all the Mirror dinghies that were built, polyester has
probably been used on more stitch and glue boats than any other
resin. Mirrors can rot out, but even when raced in heavy air, I'm
not aware that any ever came apart!
not once the best way to build a boat but now I cannot trust the
suppliers of plywood and the offshore makers. In the last five
years most of the good sources of plywood have dried up and I think
never to recover again.
I will explain what I am using now and it is inexpensive and has
been considered a weed in the Pacific Northwest. This tree can lay
dead on the ground for twenty years and never rot. No indigenous
bug or tropical bug will eat its wood and it is now selling for
pennies a board foot. It makes some of the best wood for cold
molding that can be used and if it is soaked in freshwater it is
impervious to rot. I am now talking about the lowly Juniper tree.
They are making veneer from it in many lengths and thick nesses. My
last Oakume plywood project that I sealed and vacuumed bagged last
winter now has tell tail dark edges where rot has sneaked in and is
deteriorating the strength of my project.
With Juniper the veneer can have small knots but in cold molding it
will not effect the strength in three or four layers. They have
priced our boatbuilding out of the use of timbers, plywood and
carbon fiber. Now a plague to farmers may have come to save
backyard boat builders and regardless the price of the glue the wood
may be cheap enough to give our boat building a new lift! I am
planning a new article introducing this new wood, the supplier, the
cost and the strength! Hopefully a boat of sufficient curves to
show how it can be formed.
My outlook on the condition of our modern plywood is a disaster.
The suppliers of plywood are raping boat builders. You can buy
cabinet grade A double side curly maple finish ply for less than
boat ply. Hopefully this new product will change boatbuilding stop
me from going fully over to Ferro-Cement. More news soon at
Duckworks.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> I'm currently using MDO on a 19 ft boat and I like it very much.However, it currently seems to be available in 1/2" and 3/8". If
you are contemplating a small boat which uses 1/4", MDO is not an
option.
>been times in my life when the options were go cheap or don't go at
> Although I can appreciate the urge to economize (and there have
all), the incremental cost of marine grade plywood over lumber yard
plywood doesn't amount to all that much on a 4 or 5 sheet boat.
>for all fiberglassing. For a boat that lives on a trailer, I
> If I had to economize, I would choose polyester resin over epoxy
believe it is about as good and it is a lot cheaper than epoxy. If
you consider all the Mirror dinghies that were built, polyester has
probably been used on more stitch and glue boats than any other
resin. Mirrors can rot out, but even when raced in heavy air, I'm
not aware that any ever came apart!
>include
> John T
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Harry James
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
>
>
> I will stand corrected on this one. When I say Marine plywood, I
> the high quality MDO's when I think about it. The nearest sourcefor
> both is 700 miles away..wrote:
>
> HJ
>
> Nels wrote:
>
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...>
> >going
> >
> >>Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are
> >>use
> >>
> >to
> >
> >
> >>spend more than two days building a boat then you should not
> >>anything but high quality plywood. >waste
> >>If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't
> >>are
> >>
> >your
> >
> >
> >>time building with anything but marine plywood.
> >>
> >>HJ
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >What impressed me about the Crezon MDO is that it is completely
> >sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges
> >sealed on the stuff I bought.course
> >
> >None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of
> >and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets.Both
> >types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones areall
> >equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outerin this
> >veneers.
> >
> >So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality
> >part of the country.horses
> >
> >Cheers, Nels
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
> >Yahoo! Groups Linkshorses
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>-----------
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Linksof Service.
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm currently using MDO on a 19 ft boat and I like it very much. However, it currently seems to be available in 1/2" and 3/8". If you are contemplating a small boat which uses 1/4", MDO is not an option.
Although I can appreciate the urge to economize (and there have been times in my life when the options were go cheap or don't go at all), the incremental cost of marine grade plywood over lumber yard plywood doesn't amount to all that much on a 4 or 5 sheet boat.
If I had to economize, I would choose polyester resin over epoxy for all fiberglassing. For a boat that lives on a trailer, I believe it is about as good and it is a lot cheaper than epoxy. If you consider all the Mirror dinghies that were built, polyester has probably been used on more stitch and glue boats than any other resin. Mirrors can rot out, but even when raced in heavy air, I'm not aware that any ever came apart!
John T
Although I can appreciate the urge to economize (and there have been times in my life when the options were go cheap or don't go at all), the incremental cost of marine grade plywood over lumber yard plywood doesn't amount to all that much on a 4 or 5 sheet boat.
If I had to economize, I would choose polyester resin over epoxy for all fiberglassing. For a boat that lives on a trailer, I believe it is about as good and it is a lot cheaper than epoxy. If you consider all the Mirror dinghies that were built, polyester has probably been used on more stitch and glue boats than any other resin. Mirrors can rot out, but even when raced in heavy air, I'm not aware that any ever came apart!
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry James
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
I will stand corrected on this one. When I say Marine plywood, I include
the high quality MDO's when I think about it. The nearest source for
both is 700 miles away..
HJ
Nels wrote:
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
>
>
>>Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are going
>>
>>
>to
>
>
>>spend more than two days building a boat then you should not use
>>anything but high quality plywood. >
>>If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste
>>
>>
>your
>
>
>>time building with anything but marine plywood.
>>
>>HJ
>>
>>
>>
>What impressed me about the Crezon MDO is that it is completely
>sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges are
>sealed on the stuff I bought.
>
>None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of course
>and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets. Both
>types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones are all
>equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outer
>veneers.
>
>So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality in this
>part of the country.
>
>Cheers, Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I used to be a believer in the "AC plywood is good enough" school. I
have changed my mind over the years as more and more of what we buy is
made in some unknown part of the world. I have done the dishwasher test
on some new stuff that came in to the local yard that looked great. When
I bought some later that looked just the same for boatbuilding I had
lots of problems. The quality is so variable you just can't trust it.
Who wants four or five weekends of work to start coming apart before the
boat even hits the water?
HJ
John Bell wrote:
have changed my mind over the years as more and more of what we buy is
made in some unknown part of the world. I have done the dishwasher test
on some new stuff that came in to the local yard that looked great. When
I bought some later that looked just the same for boatbuilding I had
lots of problems. The quality is so variable you just can't trust it.
Who wants four or five weekends of work to start coming apart before the
boat even hits the water?
HJ
John Bell wrote:
>Watch out! The cheap boat secret police will land their black helicopters on
>your lawn and haul you away to the Ministry of BC Pine for some , ahem,
>re-education! <grin> We may never see you again.
>
>(Which is to say "Amen, brother". I've seen the light!)
>
>
>JB
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:08 AM
>Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
>
>
>|
>| Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to
>| spend more than two days building a boat then you should not use
>| anything but high quality plywood. If I needed a dinghy in a few days I
>| would get some AC and slap together an Elegant punt, use construction
>| glue and latex paint. Any thing beyond this effort would get good plywood.
>|
>| If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste your
>| time building with anything but marine plywood.
>|
>| HJ
>|
>|
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
Watch out! The cheap boat secret police will land their black helicopters on
your lawn and haul you away to the Ministry of BC Pine for some , ahem,
re-education! <grin> We may never see you again.
(Which is to say "Amen, brother". I've seen the light!)
JB
your lawn and haul you away to the Ministry of BC Pine for some , ahem,
re-education! <grin> We may never see you again.
(Which is to say "Amen, brother". I've seen the light!)
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
|
| Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to
| spend more than two days building a boat then you should not use
| anything but high quality plywood. If I needed a dinghy in a few days I
| would get some AC and slap together an Elegant punt, use construction
| glue and latex paint. Any thing beyond this effort would get good plywood.
|
| If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste your
| time building with anything but marine plywood.
|
| HJ
|
|
I will stand corrected on this one. When I say Marine plywood, I include
the high quality MDO's when I think about it. The nearest source for
both is 700 miles away..
HJ
Nels wrote:
the high quality MDO's when I think about it. The nearest source for
both is 700 miles away..
HJ
Nels wrote:
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
>
>
>>Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are going
>>
>>
>to
>
>
>>spend more than two days building a boat then you should not use
>>anything but high quality plywood. >
>>If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste
>>
>>
>your
>
>
>>time building with anything but marine plywood.
>>
>>HJ
>>
>>
>>
>What impressed me about the Crezon MDO is that it is completely
>sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges are
>sealed on the stuff I bought.
>
>None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of course
>and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets. Both
>types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones are all
>equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outer
>veneers.
>
>So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality in this
>part of the country.
>
>Cheers, Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
you can think of. Never assume that there are places water could
never reach - It'll find a way.
that accumultes water, allows it in and traps it!
Cheers, Nels
> Then my advice would be to look out for anywhere that water(especially rainwater) might collect, and protect it with everything
you can think of. Never assume that there are places water could
never reach - It'll find a way.
>Right you are Bill and this is especially true with a faulty cover
> Bill
>
that accumultes water, allows it in and traps it!
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges are
sealed on the stuff I bought.
None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of course
and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets. Both
types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones are all
equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outer
veneers.
So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality in this
part of the country.
Cheers, Nels
> Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are goingto
> spend more than two days building a boat then you should not useyour
> anything but high quality plywood. >
> If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste
> time building with anything but marine plywood.What impressed me about the Crezon MDO is that it is completely
>
> HJ
>
sealed with resin before it leaves the factory. Even the edges are
sealed on the stuff I bought.
None of the marine grade fir plywood I looked at was sealed of course
and the grain was already beginning to raise on some sheets. Both
types had the same number of veneers. and the crezon ones are all
equal in thickness, while some marine plywood has thinner outer
veneers.
So even "marine grade" plywood can be of questionable quality in this
part of the country.
Cheers, Nels
> Yes I plan to keep it at a mooring for the summer. Peter AndersonThen my advice would be to look out for anywhere that water (especially rainwater) might collect, and protect it with everything you can think of. Never assume that there are places water could never reach - It'll find a way.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fritz Funk and I have come to the conclusion that if you are going to
spend more than two days building a boat then you should not use
anything but high quality plywood. If I needed a dinghy in a few days I
would get some AC and slap together an Elegant punt, use construction
glue and latex paint. Any thing beyond this effort would get good plywood.
If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste your
time building with anything but marine plywood.
HJ
dnjost wrote:
spend more than two days building a boat then you should not use
anything but high quality plywood. If I needed a dinghy in a few days I
would get some AC and slap together an Elegant punt, use construction
glue and latex paint. Any thing beyond this effort would get good plywood.
If you are thinking fiberglass or epoxy at all then don't waste your
time building with anything but marine plywood.
HJ
dnjost wrote:
>Nels,
>
>Iam by no means an expert at this, but after building a Micro
>(totally encapsulated, with marine grade ply) and a Diablo, Pointy
>skiff, and Nymph from lumberyard AC, and luan I can give a
>performance report to some degree. I do not recommend using sub
>marine grade ply on any boat you plan to use for more than 10
>years. Luan is a no-no. Sorry if I offended some of you here. But,
>the quality control is unknown and some varieties absorb water like
>a sponge and then come apart unexpectedly at 15 kts (Diablo version
>1, long story)
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
is better than the usual marine grade fir. And the price isn't much
different. Lot less chance of checking with the MDO.
So what weight Dynel do you prefer?
Cheers, Nels
>Thanks a lot for the information. Some people feel that the good MDO
> Nels,
>
>> Diablo - see previous post. Dynel is great to use on curved
> surfaces because it stretches nicely and is easily wet out. follow
> Dave Carnell's advice for fillers. I used microballoons to get a
> fair surface on Micro.
>
is better than the usual marine grade fir. And the price isn't much
different. Lot less chance of checking with the MDO.
So what weight Dynel do you prefer?
Cheers, Nels
Nels,
Iam by no means an expert at this, but after building a Micro
(totally encapsulated, with marine grade ply) and a Diablo, Pointy
skiff, and Nymph from lumberyard AC, and luan I can give a
performance report to some degree. I do not recommend using sub
marine grade ply on any boat you plan to use for more than 10
years. Luan is a no-no. Sorry if I offended some of you here. But,
the quality control is unknown and some varieties absorb water like
a sponge and then come apart unexpectedly at 15 kts (Diablo version
1, long story)
20 year old Nymph - was encapsulated inside and glassed on the
outside with polyester resin and cloth. IT IS STILL GOING STRONG!!!
I ran into the current owner by accident as they are a parent of a
student I teach in the school dept. Polyester Resin stinks, is a
known carcinogen, and it works magic with plywood.
Pointy skiff - was built from Marine ply (bottom) and luan for the
sides. No glass anywhere initially. Seats replaced, rails are now
garbage. I grind off the bad spots and fill with cloth and resin.
Eventually it will be an all fiberglass boat.
Diablo - see previous post. Dynel is great to use on curved
surfaces because it stretches nicely and is easily wet out. follow
Dave Carnell's advice for fillers. I used microballoons to get a
fair surface on Micro.
Micro - beautiful boat and I imagine it is still in great shape.
there is no way for the water to get at it topsides, due to the
encapsulation with glass and epoxy. Inside surfaces received
multiple coats of epoxy as well. but no standing water will be
there.
I am going to build a June Bug (with an adaptation for a small
electric motor) and will probably use MDO. The reviews of its
performance are too hard to ignore. I won't be glassing it since my
intention is to get it on and off the Saab's roof easily.
Wood that receives three coats of epoxy prior to varnish will be
very easy to maintain year after year if you use a good varnish with
high UV protection. I use polyurethane over the teak that was
sealed with epoxy on my Catboat. A quick sanding and a few coats of
varnish are all it takes to keep the boat looking fantastic. Don't
leave epoxy unprotected, It will leave you!
In any case, dirt breeds fungus on unprotected wood. Clean your
boat, and paint it so it there is some protection. Yes...I have an
abusive relationship with Diablo and Pointy Skiff. My other boats
are another story.http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeokhsb/for more
boat stuff
David Jost
"yes...it is snowing like mad. winter does strange things to the
mind."
Iam by no means an expert at this, but after building a Micro
(totally encapsulated, with marine grade ply) and a Diablo, Pointy
skiff, and Nymph from lumberyard AC, and luan I can give a
performance report to some degree. I do not recommend using sub
marine grade ply on any boat you plan to use for more than 10
years. Luan is a no-no. Sorry if I offended some of you here. But,
the quality control is unknown and some varieties absorb water like
a sponge and then come apart unexpectedly at 15 kts (Diablo version
1, long story)
20 year old Nymph - was encapsulated inside and glassed on the
outside with polyester resin and cloth. IT IS STILL GOING STRONG!!!
I ran into the current owner by accident as they are a parent of a
student I teach in the school dept. Polyester Resin stinks, is a
known carcinogen, and it works magic with plywood.
Pointy skiff - was built from Marine ply (bottom) and luan for the
sides. No glass anywhere initially. Seats replaced, rails are now
garbage. I grind off the bad spots and fill with cloth and resin.
Eventually it will be an all fiberglass boat.
Diablo - see previous post. Dynel is great to use on curved
surfaces because it stretches nicely and is easily wet out. follow
Dave Carnell's advice for fillers. I used microballoons to get a
fair surface on Micro.
Micro - beautiful boat and I imagine it is still in great shape.
there is no way for the water to get at it topsides, due to the
encapsulation with glass and epoxy. Inside surfaces received
multiple coats of epoxy as well. but no standing water will be
there.
I am going to build a June Bug (with an adaptation for a small
electric motor) and will probably use MDO. The reviews of its
performance are too hard to ignore. I won't be glassing it since my
intention is to get it on and off the Saab's roof easily.
Wood that receives three coats of epoxy prior to varnish will be
very easy to maintain year after year if you use a good varnish with
high UV protection. I use polyurethane over the teak that was
sealed with epoxy on my Catboat. A quick sanding and a few coats of
varnish are all it takes to keep the boat looking fantastic. Don't
leave epoxy unprotected, It will leave you!
In any case, dirt breeds fungus on unprotected wood. Clean your
boat, and paint it so it there is some protection. Yes...I have an
abusive relationship with Diablo and Pointy Skiff. My other boats
are another story.http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeokhsb/for more
boat stuff
David Jost
"yes...it is snowing like mad. winter does strange things to the
mind."
>seat
> Specifically:
>
> 1. Using MDO instead of AC fir?
>
> 2. What weight dynel?
>
> 3. Also dynel covering the interior below the waterline, and the
> tops?cross-
>
> 4. Gunwales would be capped over and sealed with mahogany "el"
> sectioned outwales.painted.
>
> 5. The rest just sealed with epoxy fillets and glass tape and
>
> What think you old dingy person?
>
> Nels
Yes I plan to keep it at a mooring for the summer. Peter Anderson
Place your Message Signature here.
Leave blank for no Message Signature.
---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:46:36 -0000
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
Place your Message Signature here.
Leave blank for no Message Signature.
---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:46:36 -0000
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> This thread has been very useful and interesting. I'm wonderinghttp://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
> though whether the decision to encapsulate (meaning just coat with
> epoxy) might depend upon the quality of plywood used for the
> project. I have pretty much decided to use Meranti BS1088. Peter Anderson
>
> In my experience, one coat is neither one thing nor the other. If
> I remember rightly, the WEST System book says to use 3 for encapsulation.
>
> Mind you, with BS1088 Meranti you've got HIGHLY durable wood that
> certainly won't check in the sake way as fir. I'm building a kayak
> with BS1088 ocume ply (Robbins Elite) and do not intend to
> encapsulate it - just varnish - mostly for appearance and lightness.
> It will be kept in a shed between trips, though.
>
> Is your boat going to be kept afloat?
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research
> Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->------- End of Original Message -------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe: bolger-
>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <djost@m...> wrote:
who is considering building a similar design. (Perhaps a "Stretched
Bee" of a Fastbrick.)
Specifically:
1. Using MDO instead of AC fir?
2. What weight dynel?
3. Also dynel covering the interior below the waterline, and the seat
tops?
4. Gunwales would be capped over and sealed with mahogany "el" cross-
sectioned outwales.
5. The rest just sealed with epoxy fillets and glass tape and painted.
What think you old dingy person?
Nels
>Knowing what you know now, what would be your advice be to someone
> My diablo is now 15 years old, built of AC fir ply and encapsulated
> on the outside by dynel glass set in epoxy.
>
who is considering building a similar design. (Perhaps a "Stretched
Bee" of a Fastbrick.)
Specifically:
1. Using MDO instead of AC fir?
2. What weight dynel?
3. Also dynel covering the interior below the waterline, and the seat
tops?
4. Gunwales would be capped over and sealed with mahogany "el" cross-
sectioned outwales.
5. The rest just sealed with epoxy fillets and glass tape and painted.
What think you old dingy person?
Nels
My diablo is now 15 years old, built of AC fir ply and encapsulated
on the outside by dynel glass set in epoxy.
So far...
1. I have replaced the transom due to delamination.
2. all the seats have been replaced due to delamination.
3. I have pockets of rot on the inside faces where dirt and
moisture accumulated in the uneven "C" face of the ply. to fix it I
will grind through to the dynel and fill with glass and resin. No
harm done, just money and time spent.
I am considering painting the interior with a couple of coats of
antifreeze prior to painting after repairing the rot. Should work.
What the heck, it floats.
David Jost
"getting and little dinghy in my old age."
on the outside by dynel glass set in epoxy.
So far...
1. I have replaced the transom due to delamination.
2. all the seats have been replaced due to delamination.
3. I have pockets of rot on the inside faces where dirt and
moisture accumulated in the uneven "C" face of the ply. to fix it I
will grind through to the dynel and fill with glass and resin. No
harm done, just money and time spent.
I am considering painting the interior with a couple of coats of
antifreeze prior to painting after repairing the rot. Should work.
What the heck, it floats.
David Jost
"getting and little dinghy in my old age."
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@m...>
wrote:
encapsulated with epoxy or simply painted on the inside would not
effect the plywood layer next to the exterior fiberglass. It is the
outer atmospheric hot/cold expansion/contraction that is the biggest
challenge - not the fact that the wood breathes. Epoxy is the best
matrix between glass and wood as it creates a molecular bond if done
correctly and the interface becomes flexible when heat expansion
occurs.
Water vapor is also not a direct factor - only can be one if it
condenses into water and then freezes. Water that gets into plywood
and freezes can rip it apart overnight. However in plywood that is
allowed to breath the vapor can escape and no damage occurs.
Most paints allow water vapor to escape to some degree, but in a way
Bolger is correct - don't paint the interior at all, if you can keep
it dry of liquid moisture. However bare wood stains and discolours as
it ages, and some woods naturally decompose more quickly than others.
Another factor with Bolger's boat is that he had a stove that burned
anthracite coal which kept the interior free of mold I would bet.
In Sweden, the house my father was born is all wood, and 400 years
old. It's only finish is a mixture of turpentine and tar.
Much the same with the viking boats, but they were kept in salt water
mostly and were very wet inside - pickled to some degree by the
brine:-) This would not work with plywood boats.
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
>the
> I can see where glassing the outside of a large boat and letting
> inside breath would cause the wood to expand and contract with theI don't follow this line of reasoning. Whether the plywood is
> season and cause problems with the glass.
encapsulated with epoxy or simply painted on the inside would not
effect the plywood layer next to the exterior fiberglass. It is the
outer atmospheric hot/cold expansion/contraction that is the biggest
challenge - not the fact that the wood breathes. Epoxy is the best
matrix between glass and wood as it creates a molecular bond if done
correctly and the interface becomes flexible when heat expansion
occurs.
Water vapor is also not a direct factor - only can be one if it
condenses into water and then freezes. Water that gets into plywood
and freezes can rip it apart overnight. However in plywood that is
allowed to breath the vapor can escape and no damage occurs.
Most paints allow water vapor to escape to some degree, but in a way
Bolger is correct - don't paint the interior at all, if you can keep
it dry of liquid moisture. However bare wood stains and discolours as
it ages, and some woods naturally decompose more quickly than others.
Another factor with Bolger's boat is that he had a stove that burned
anthracite coal which kept the interior free of mold I would bet.
In Sweden, the house my father was born is all wood, and 400 years
old. It's only finish is a mixture of turpentine and tar.
Much the same with the viking boats, but they were kept in salt water
mostly and were very wet inside - pickled to some degree by the
brine:-) This would not work with plywood boats.
Cheers, Nels
> I was looking for an article that PCB wrote telling about hitting anIf only polyester resin and glass had been available in sufficient quantity when Harland and Woolf built the Titanic, how different things might have turned out. We might even have been spared that dreadful song.
> underwater object with "Pointer" and was certain that it must have
> stove in the hull. He found only a relatively minor scratch on the
> bottom when he checked later. It had a layer glass and/or glass mat
> embedded in polyester resin. It seems it made a believer out of him.
Bill (Sorry, couldn't resist! >:-D )
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
kayak with BS1088 ocume ply (Robbins Elite) and do not intend to
encapsulate it - just varnish - mostly for appearance and lightness.
It will be kept in a shed between trips, though.
to be subjected to. Loading and unloading from a trailer, rocks and
stones and gravel. And this may be just getting to the water!
I was looking for an article that PCB wrote telling about hitting an
underwater object with "Pointer" and was certain that it must have
stove in the hull. He found only a relatively minor scratch on the
bottom when he checked later. It had a layer glass and/or glass mat
embedded in polyester resin. It seems it made a believer out of him.
For me, the more I paid for the plywood the more I would be inclined
to want to protect it. Wood is wood and moisture, rot and abrasion
have no preferences as to how expensive it is.
Cheers, Nels
>> Mind you, with BS1088 Meranti you've got HIGHLY durable woodthat certainly won't check in the sake way as fir. I'm building a
kayak with BS1088 ocume ply (Robbins Elite) and do not intend to
encapsulate it - just varnish - mostly for appearance and lightness.
It will be kept in a shed between trips, though.
>Another thing to consider is what kind of treatment the hull is going
> Is your boat going to be kept afloat?
>
> Bill
>
to be subjected to. Loading and unloading from a trailer, rocks and
stones and gravel. And this may be just getting to the water!
I was looking for an article that PCB wrote telling about hitting an
underwater object with "Pointer" and was certain that it must have
stove in the hull. He found only a relatively minor scratch on the
bottom when he checked later. It had a layer glass and/or glass mat
embedded in polyester resin. It seems it made a believer out of him.
For me, the more I paid for the plywood the more I would be inclined
to want to protect it. Wood is wood and moisture, rot and abrasion
have no preferences as to how expensive it is.
Cheers, Nels
This thread has been very useful and interesting. I'm wondering though
whether the decision to encapsulate (meaning just coat with epoxy) might
depend upon the quality of plywood used for the project. I have pretty much
decided to use Meranti BS1088. Peter Anderson
In my experience, one coat is neither one thing nor the other. If I remember rightly, the WEST System book says to use 3 for encapsulation.
Mind you, with BS1088 Meranti you've got HIGHLY durable wood that certainly won't check in the sake way as fir. I'm building a kayak with BS1088 ocume ply (Robbins Elite) and do not intend to encapsulate it - just varnish - mostly for appearance and lightness. It will be kept in a shed between trips, though.
Is your boat going to be kept afloat?
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
whether the decision to encapsulate (meaning just coat with epoxy) might
depend upon the quality of plywood used for the project. I have pretty much
decided to use Meranti BS1088. Peter Anderson
In my experience, one coat is neither one thing nor the other. If I remember rightly, the WEST System book says to use 3 for encapsulation.
Mind you, with BS1088 Meranti you've got HIGHLY durable wood that certainly won't check in the sake way as fir. I'm building a kayak with BS1088 ocume ply (Robbins Elite) and do not intend to encapsulate it - just varnish - mostly for appearance and lightness. It will be kept in a shed between trips, though.
Is your boat going to be kept afloat?
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just remembered another place in Chebacco that water is inclined to collect - that's around the mast step, for'ard of bulkhead 1 which, as designed, has no limber holes. Water runs down the mast which (as designed) doesn't lend itself to an efficent leak-proof boot. That's probably the biggest achilles heel as far as 'keeping the cork in the bottle' is concerned.
Bill
PS I second everything that Jamie says
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill
PS I second everything that Jamie says
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This thread has been very useful and interesting. I'm wondering though
whether the decision to encapsulate (meaning just coat with epoxy) might
depend upon the quality of plywood used for the project. I have pretty much
decided to use Meranti BS1088. Peter Anderson
Place your Message Signature here.
Leave blank for no Message Signature.
---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:24:54 -0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
whether the decision to encapsulate (meaning just coat with epoxy) might
depend upon the quality of plywood used for the project. I have pretty much
decided to use Meranti BS1088. Peter Anderson
Place your Message Signature here.
Leave blank for no Message Signature.
---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:24:54 -0000
Subject: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> I can see where glassing the outside of a large boat and letting thehttp://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
> inside breath would cause the wood to expand and contract with the
> season and cause problems with the glass. Sea water hinders dry rott
> and fresh helps hence little problems on a boat in salt water except
> where rain water gathers.
>
> Jon
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude Children's Research
> Hospital's 'Thanks & Giving.'
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->------- End of Original Message -------
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349 - Unsubscribe: bolger-
>unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
I can see where glassing the outside of a large boat and letting the
inside breath would cause the wood to expand and contract with the
season and cause problems with the glass. Sea water hinders dry rott
and fresh helps hence little problems on a boat in salt water except
where rain water gathers.
Jon
inside breath would cause the wood to expand and contract with the
season and cause problems with the glass. Sea water hinders dry rott
and fresh helps hence little problems on a boat in salt water except
where rain water gathers.
Jon
I glassed every surface that was exposed to the sun and/or salt
water. I encapsulated all the interior surfaces. This was over fir
plywood, which is prone to checking. So far, no checking, except on
the underside of the sliding hatch. I think this is probably due to
this flat surface being stood on by my 240 pounds and flexing
downward, so I don't feel the encapsulation has failed.
In any case, it provided a very stable surface for paint, allowing me
to use a two part poly paint that has lasted five years and looks
good for at least five more. (After the third year, someone looking
at the boat asked if I had just repainted.)
So I would do it again. If you glass your cockpit, glass the bottom
and sides under the floorboards too. Although the sun can't get in,
spray and rainwater will pool here. I didn't glass this area and
although the encapsulation is still in good shape, I wish I had
glassed it.
Jamie Orr
water. I encapsulated all the interior surfaces. This was over fir
plywood, which is prone to checking. So far, no checking, except on
the underside of the sliding hatch. I think this is probably due to
this flat surface being stood on by my 240 pounds and flexing
downward, so I don't feel the encapsulation has failed.
In any case, it provided a very stable surface for paint, allowing me
to use a two part poly paint that has lasted five years and looks
good for at least five more. (After the third year, someone looking
at the boat asked if I had just repainted.)
So I would do it again. If you glass your cockpit, glass the bottom
and sides under the floorboards too. Although the sun can't get in,
spray and rainwater will pool here. I didn't glass this area and
although the encapsulation is still in good shape, I wish I had
glassed it.
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Anderson" <paa@a...> wrote:
> I am a prospective Chebacco builder. I have already built
cartopper, bobcat and rubens nymph. When I finish building my boat
shop next to the house in Addison, Maine, I plan to start Chebacco.
I have the plans and have done research on building methods. I
believe that most persons who have built the boat recommend
encapsulating the plywood interior surfaces with a coat of two of
epoxy. Thus, I was surprised to read on Dave Carnell's website that
he thinks that it is a waste of time and money. Anyone have any
thoughts on this apparent conflict of opinion?
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
dry out. Rot ensues.
Theres a folder of photos of LESTAT in Bolger3 showing a boat made
entirely using MDO, many of them taken in the boats 12th year. It was
never stored inside and spent most summers at the quay.
When building it, Peter Lenihan was meticulous in sealing all exposed
edge grain and openings and insuring there was no place where water
would stand on the exterior nor enter the interior. The hatch and
deck construction are not according to plan but according to
traditional construction as in "Bud" McIntosh's great manual, "How To
Build A Wooden Boat." I have no idea how much extra work that was but
it is sure a joy to behold and still as sound as the day it was
launched.
If Peter ever wrote a building manual it would be worth it's weight
in gold. Mind you it might only be 12 or 14 pages thick, but would
basically be all one would need:-)
Don't let this Francois Bon Vivant facade fool you. The guy is really
a pirate from Lunenburg or someplace and has a real hard-nosed work
ethic.
Cheers, Nels
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> A basic problem with plywood is that water can migrate along a plyand if it is an inside ply, the glue lines do not allow the veneer to
dry out. Rot ensues.
> I'm building a boat out of MDO fir plywood, but it will be someyears before I can determine if this is a good idea.
>Hi John,
> John T
>
Theres a folder of photos of LESTAT in Bolger3 showing a boat made
entirely using MDO, many of them taken in the boats 12th year. It was
never stored inside and spent most summers at the quay.
When building it, Peter Lenihan was meticulous in sealing all exposed
edge grain and openings and insuring there was no place where water
would stand on the exterior nor enter the interior. The hatch and
deck construction are not according to plan but according to
traditional construction as in "Bud" McIntosh's great manual, "How To
Build A Wooden Boat." I have no idea how much extra work that was but
it is sure a joy to behold and still as sound as the day it was
launched.
If Peter ever wrote a building manual it would be worth it's weight
in gold. Mind you it might only be 12 or 14 pages thick, but would
basically be all one would need:-)
Don't let this Francois Bon Vivant facade fool you. The guy is really
a pirate from Lunenburg or someplace and has a real hard-nosed work
ethic.
Cheers, Nels
A basic problem with plywood is that water can migrate along a ply and if it is an inside ply, the glue lines do not allow the veneer to dry out. Rot ensues.
You frequently encounter a similiar problem in balsa cored fiberglass decks. Water gets to the core--usually through a hole drilled for a fitting--the core rots, and the deck gets real spongy.
Encapsulating plywood in either several layers of resin or fiberglass and resin (Bolger advocates fiberglassing panels before assembly in his essay on Jochems) will go a long way toward adding strength and longevity. But in my opinion, whether you "encapsulate or not, it is vitally important to seal the end grain of plywood with several coats of epoxy. This includes the edges of any holes drilled through the plywood. Epoxy sealant, combined with carefully applied bedding compound will go a long way toward minimizing rot.
I'm building a boat out of MDO fir plywood, but it will be some years before I can determine if this is a good idea.
John T
You frequently encounter a similiar problem in balsa cored fiberglass decks. Water gets to the core--usually through a hole drilled for a fitting--the core rots, and the deck gets real spongy.
Encapsulating plywood in either several layers of resin or fiberglass and resin (Bolger advocates fiberglassing panels before assembly in his essay on Jochems) will go a long way toward adding strength and longevity. But in my opinion, whether you "encapsulate or not, it is vitally important to seal the end grain of plywood with several coats of epoxy. This includes the edges of any holes drilled through the plywood. Epoxy sealant, combined with carefully applied bedding compound will go a long way toward minimizing rot.
I'm building a boat out of MDO fir plywood, but it will be some years before I can determine if this is a good idea.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Samson
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: encapsulation
> However my decisions are based on a dry northern climate, where the
> freeze/thaw hot/cold extremes are the big challenge. This may not
> apply to Great Britain.
You're right. This is a damp northern climate (57 degrees north) but not too extreme - generally cool, windy, wet and miserable, summer and winter. :(
If I was to build another Chebacco I'd be inclined to glass the bilges (I already did all the exterior surfaces) - certainly up to the waterline. That's where water can collect in storms if you keep your boat on a mooring. Unless you're very lucky you'll get water inside the cabin, too - spray when underway, rain, water off wet oilskins thrown in there, condensation and so on. Not deep, you understand, but still needs sponging dry from time to time - so glassing the bilges there AND under the side benches (where the limber holes carry the water from the cabin) would be advisable.
Keeping the cork in the bottle is easier said than done, in my experience[and you can take that any way you like <hic!> - What say 'ee, Cap'n Lenihan? ;)]
Bill
PS Epoxy coating without glass is not too effective unless you give it at least three good coats, in my experience, and then paint it with two-part paint. What you have then is pretty damn tough and waterproof, provided you don't leave any pinholes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Missing from this thread about 'epoxy encapsulation' is what
Mr. Bolger recommends. Indeed, I can recall very little writing
about the virtues or vices of epoxy. Most of his designs appear
to be silent about use of epoxy, inside *or* out.
I vaguely recall from his chapter on Resolution, that he favors
simple 'bare wood' inside that boat. The bottom, I recall,
is plated in copper sheet. The topsides, I think, were simply
painted white.
Can anybody recall snippets of Bolgers writings that tell us
his opinion about epoxy encapsulation?
Mr. Bolger recommends. Indeed, I can recall very little writing
about the virtues or vices of epoxy. Most of his designs appear
to be silent about use of epoxy, inside *or* out.
I vaguely recall from his chapter on Resolution, that he favors
simple 'bare wood' inside that boat. The bottom, I recall,
is plated in copper sheet. The topsides, I think, were simply
painted white.
Can anybody recall snippets of Bolgers writings that tell us
his opinion about epoxy encapsulation?
> However my decisions are based on a dry northern climate, where theYou're right. This is a damp northern climate (57 degrees north) but not too extreme - generally cool, windy, wet and miserable, summer and winter. :(
> freeze/thaw hot/cold extremes are the big challenge. This may not
> apply to Great Britain.
If I was to build another Chebacco I'd be inclined to glass the bilges (I already did all the exterior surfaces) - certainly up to the waterline. That's where water can collect in storms if you keep your boat on a mooring. Unless you're very lucky you'll get water inside the cabin, too - spray when underway, rain, water off wet oilskins thrown in there, condensation and so on. Not deep, you understand, but still needs sponging dry from time to time - so glassing the bilges there AND under the side benches (where the limber holes carry the water from the cabin) would be advisable.
Keeping the cork in the bottle is easier said than done, in my experience[and you can take that any way you like <hic!> - What say 'ee, Cap'n Lenihan? ;)]
Bill
PS Epoxy coating without glass is not too effective unless you give it at least three good coats, in my experience, and then paint it with two-part paint. What you have then is pretty damn tough and waterproof, provided you don't leave any pinholes.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
inside of the roof as well? How about the enclosed area under the
side benches? Then there's the 'lazarette' areas either side of the
mizzen - do you glass the insides of them? Do you glass the
underside of their 'lid's? What about the undersides of the side
benches?
outside elements to maximize durability and protection from moisture
and sun and wind and UV and abrasion. In my view the interior of a
boat is not much different than the interior of any mobile dwelling
structure.
However my decisions are based on a dry northern climate, where the
freeze/thaw hot/cold extremes are the big challenge. This may not
apply to Great Britain.
Plywood, even the poorer stuff is still about the sturdiest, and best
interior structural product in my view. I am not even sure if the
interior surfaces have to be encapsulated at all, since the paints
and sealants today are so effective in protecting even outdoor wood
surfaces. So I would not glass any of the interior. I would however
install weatherproof seals and locking hold-downs on any outside
bench lids or lazerettes. I would want to keep water out of any of
the interior and provide ventilation for water vapour all year round.
I like the cork in the bottle philosophy of keeping the elements out
that Bolger refers to at times. Yet still allow adequate air
circulation. This is why I am also interested in having a proper
small heating stove.
Cheers, Nels
> This would be absolutely fine for an open boat - pretty easy.glass the cockpit. How about the inside of the cabin? Do you do the
>
> Think, though, about the shape of a Chebacco - not too difficult to
inside of the roof as well? How about the enclosed area under the
side benches? Then there's the 'lazarette' areas either side of the
mizzen - do you glass the insides of them? Do you glass the
underside of their 'lid's? What about the undersides of the side
benches?
>I would only consider glassing the areas that are exposed to the
outside elements to maximize durability and protection from moisture
and sun and wind and UV and abrasion. In my view the interior of a
boat is not much different than the interior of any mobile dwelling
structure.
However my decisions are based on a dry northern climate, where the
freeze/thaw hot/cold extremes are the big challenge. This may not
apply to Great Britain.
Plywood, even the poorer stuff is still about the sturdiest, and best
interior structural product in my view. I am not even sure if the
interior surfaces have to be encapsulated at all, since the paints
and sealants today are so effective in protecting even outdoor wood
surfaces. So I would not glass any of the interior. I would however
install weatherproof seals and locking hold-downs on any outside
bench lids or lazerettes. I would want to keep water out of any of
the interior and provide ventilation for water vapour all year round.
I like the cork in the bottle philosophy of keeping the elements out
that Bolger refers to at times. Yet still allow adequate air
circulation. This is why I am also interested in having a proper
small heating stove.
Cheers, Nels
This would be absolutely fine for an open boat - pretty easy.
Think, though, about the shape of a Chebacco - not too difficult to glass the cockpit. How about the inside of the cabin? Do you do the inside of the roof as well? How about the enclosed area under the side benches? Then there's the 'lazarette' areas either side of the mizzen - do you glass the insides of them? Do you glass the underside of their 'lid's? What about the undersides of the side benches?
I conclude that if you're going this far (and I don't know anybody who has) you should glass both sides of your plywood sheets before starting construction, then carefully glass tape and fillet every joint inside and out.
THEN you'll have the ultimate gold-plater Chebacco (or at least a bomb-proof one). Trouble is you'll have spent as much on materials as some people are selling them for!
Talking to pro boatbuilders, they'd rather spend more on top quality ply and skimp on the glassing. Few if any lapstrake Chebacci are glassed all over the outside, apart from the bottom and garboard strakes, never mind being glassed inside too.
Bill
Think, though, about the shape of a Chebacco - not too difficult to glass the cockpit. How about the inside of the cabin? Do you do the inside of the roof as well? How about the enclosed area under the side benches? Then there's the 'lazarette' areas either side of the mizzen - do you glass the insides of them? Do you glass the underside of their 'lid's? What about the undersides of the side benches?
I conclude that if you're going this far (and I don't know anybody who has) you should glass both sides of your plywood sheets before starting construction, then carefully glass tape and fillet every joint inside and out.
THEN you'll have the ultimate gold-plater Chebacco (or at least a bomb-proof one). Trouble is you'll have spent as much on materials as some people are selling them for!
Talking to pro boatbuilders, they'd rather spend more on top quality ply and skimp on the glassing. Few if any lapstrake Chebacci are glassed all over the outside, apart from the bottom and garboard strakes, never mind being glassed inside too.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Anderson
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 4:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] encapsulation
I am a prospective Chebacco builder. I have already built cartopper, bobcat and rubens nymph. When I finish building my boat shop next to the house in Addison, Maine, I plan to start Chebacco. I have the plans and have done research on building methods. I believe that most persons who have built the boat recommend encapsulating the plywood interior surfaces with a coat of two of epoxy. Thus, I was surprised to read on Dave Carnell's website that he thinks that it is a waste of time and money. Anyone have any thoughts on this apparent conflict of opinion?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blunck" <boatbuilding@g...> > My
personal believe is that if you aren't going to fiber glass with the
encapsulate with epoxy then you may as well go the extra and glass
all the exposed areas. Five years down the road you will never regret
having done that.
This gives you a superior moisture barrier, abrasion barrier, UV
barrier, and protection against checking and grain raising showing
through the paint job.
If you want the boat to last 10 years don't bother. If you want to
make it a part of your inheritance, bother. With a design like
Chebacco, you are already investing considerable time and money and
effort and skill, so why not make it an inheritance?
I should add that this also depends on the quality of the plywood
which is going downhill fast. In a way, the plywood can be viewed as
a core material of a fiberglass hull.
Regarding Chebacco I have a dumb question. Why does it not have a
boomkin like the Micro? Does Micro need a boomkin because the mizzen
is offset and the Chebacco's si on the centerline? What are the
relative features?
Cheers, Nels
personal believe is that if you aren't going to fiber glass with the
> epoxy, don't go through the expense. Treat the wood as Carnellsuggest,
> paint, and let it air dry it gets wet. Especially on a trailerboat.
>I totally support this observation. If you are going to completely
encapsulate with epoxy then you may as well go the extra and glass
all the exposed areas. Five years down the road you will never regret
having done that.
This gives you a superior moisture barrier, abrasion barrier, UV
barrier, and protection against checking and grain raising showing
through the paint job.
If you want the boat to last 10 years don't bother. If you want to
make it a part of your inheritance, bother. With a design like
Chebacco, you are already investing considerable time and money and
effort and skill, so why not make it an inheritance?
I should add that this also depends on the quality of the plywood
which is going downhill fast. In a way, the plywood can be viewed as
a core material of a fiberglass hull.
Regarding Chebacco I have a dumb question. Why does it not have a
boomkin like the Micro? Does Micro need a boomkin because the mizzen
is offset and the Chebacco's si on the centerline? What are the
relative features?
Cheers, Nels
I epoxied (no fiberglass) the interior on my Frolic2. The first winter the
tarp leaked I had about 20 gallons of water inside for who knows how long. I
didn't leave the cockpit drain open. DUH!
The problem with it was that in select areas the plywood under the epoxy had
swelled so it was obvious that water had found it's way under the epoxy.
Fiberglass would have helped. I sanded off the epoxy over the soaked areas
and in a month everything was fine. Thanks to the dry air here in CO, there
was no damage to be seen. A quick repaint and all was well.
My personal believe is that if you aren't going to fiber glass with the
epoxy, don't go through the expense. Treat the wood as Carnell suggest,
paint, and let it air dry it gets wet. Especially on a trailer boat.
On a boat that's going to be moored or on a dock all season or year round,
I'd ponder using fiberglass and epoxy on the interior but I still think good
ventilation and not toxic preservatives poured into the bilge annually is a
better bet. Once the glass or epoxy gets open by something like an anchor
fluke, it's compromised and there is no real way for it to dry out once
soaked. I'd rather let it breath and be able to get at it.
You'll get a variety of opinions here so do what you think is best.
Jeff
tarp leaked I had about 20 gallons of water inside for who knows how long. I
didn't leave the cockpit drain open. DUH!
The problem with it was that in select areas the plywood under the epoxy had
swelled so it was obvious that water had found it's way under the epoxy.
Fiberglass would have helped. I sanded off the epoxy over the soaked areas
and in a month everything was fine. Thanks to the dry air here in CO, there
was no damage to be seen. A quick repaint and all was well.
My personal believe is that if you aren't going to fiber glass with the
epoxy, don't go through the expense. Treat the wood as Carnell suggest,
paint, and let it air dry it gets wet. Especially on a trailer boat.
On a boat that's going to be moored or on a dock all season or year round,
I'd ponder using fiberglass and epoxy on the interior but I still think good
ventilation and not toxic preservatives poured into the bilge annually is a
better bet. Once the glass or epoxy gets open by something like an anchor
fluke, it's compromised and there is no real way for it to dry out once
soaked. I'd rather let it breath and be able to get at it.
You'll get a variety of opinions here so do what you think is best.
Jeff
>I believe that most persons who have built the boat recommend
>encapsulating the plywood interior surfaces with a coat of two of
>epoxy. Thus, I was surprised to read on Dave Carnell's website
>that he thinks that it is a waste of time and money. Anyone have
>any thoughts on this apparent conflict of opinion?
Peter Anderson wrote:
1. You will keep the boat where it never freezes in the winter. and
2. All of the exposed plywood end grain will be always dry as a bone.
Water expands when it freezes. Even a little frozen moisture soaked into
the inner layers of the plywood will be a pressure towards delamination,
with each succeeding winter slowly making junk out of the plywood. It's
much worse with luan. See Sam Glasscock's last post.
As I type this, the weatherman reports sub zero farenheight temperatures
in Maine.
Jim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I am a prospective Chebacco builder. I have already built cartopper,Dave has a point providing:
> bobcat and rubens nymph. When I finish building my boat shop next to
> the house in Addison, Maine, I plan to start Chebacco. I have the
> plans and have done research on building methods. I believe that most
> persons who have built the boat recommend encapsulating the plywood
> interior surfaces with a coat of two of epoxy. Thus, I was surprised
> to read on Dave Carnell's website that he thinks that it is a waste of
> time and money. Anyone have any thoughts on this apparent conflict of
> opinion?
>
>
1. You will keep the boat where it never freezes in the winter. and
2. All of the exposed plywood end grain will be always dry as a bone.
Water expands when it freezes. Even a little frozen moisture soaked into
the inner layers of the plywood will be a pressure towards delamination,
with each succeeding winter slowly making junk out of the plywood. It's
much worse with luan. See Sam Glasscock's last post.
As I type this, the weatherman reports sub zero farenheight temperatures
in Maine.
Jim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am a prospective Chebacco builder. I have already built cartopper, bobcat and rubens nymph. When I finish building my boat shop next to the house in Addison, Maine, I plan to start Chebacco. I have the plans and have done research on building methods. I believe that most persons who have built the boat recommend encapsulating the plywood interior surfaces with a coat of two of epoxy. Thus, I was surprised to read on Dave Carnell's website that he thinks that it is a waste of time and money. Anyone have any thoughts on this apparent conflict of opinion?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]