Re: FastBrick and Tortoise Update (Virtues of Forefeets)

Hi Stefan,

Thanks much for the first hand information. Sounds like a great boat.

Steve H

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Gutermuth" <stefan-g@m...>
wrote:

> Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only
> Water Van in the Northern Hemisphere.

Hey , -- Just a few comments from the builder of the only Water Van in the
Northern Hemisphere.

The boat is a joy to operate above 10 Knots. Below 10 knots, because of the
nose heavy design, it tends to wander, and a 2.5 to 3' wave, square on, will
ship some water over the bow. Above 10, through 16 knots the wandering goes
away, the bow comes up nicely, and she runs very dry, even in 3' to 4' chop
and swells. At 18 knots she starts to plane and by 20 knots the Water Van
levels out and feels like she's riding on a cushion In fairly calm water,
with the Suzuki DF 115, she will easily cruise at 25 knots.

The forefoot / box keel is almost 3' wide for most of its length, and runs
6" below the main hull. There are 2 mini keels at the outboard edges of the
main hull, about 2" wide and 3" down. It appears that turbulated water and
air is trapped between the box keel and the mini outboard keels; effectively
creating a slippery foam cushion at the 10 to 18 knot range.

Stefan Gutermuth, V.P.
John O'Hara Company
Ph: 973-673-4676
Fx: 973-673-7141
Cl: 201-970-8007
stefan@...


-----Original Message-----
From: pseudospark [mailto:shansen@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 6:57 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: FastBrick and Tortoise Update (Virtues of Forefeets)




Hi Bruce,

Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
cabinet.)

In looking at Fastbrick, it has the forefoot but not the box keel
per Watervan, Clam Skiff and the tugs.

The design I've been playing with is a loose adaptation of Jim
Betts' Gypsy's Poke (which he never took beyond the cartoon stage).
A forefoot and perhaps a shallow box keel might go well with this
creature.

Steve H.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation: OCR'ed from
> the excellent magazine _Messing About In Boats_, [everybody should
> subscribe!] and pasted
> below:
>






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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pseudospark" <shansen@t...> wrote:

>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
> in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
> problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
> cabinet.)
>

The article can be seen here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Watervan/

Another difference with some of the designs Bruce mentions is that
the "Garvey" shape has some deadrise near the bow in some of them.
And the run of the aft sections will be the deciding factor for the
design's ability to plane easily or sail without dragging the stern.

I believe that Bolger likes the idea that these hull-shapes are very
practical for plywood construction, as there are no compound curves
and yet they perform very well.

Fastbrick will plane:-)

Cheers, Nels

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for posting the text. This is perfect. What issue was this
in? (I'm sure I have it, my collection goes back to 1990 - the only
problem is that I have them archived 3 deep in a floor level
cabinet.)

In looking at Fastbrick, it has the forefoot but not the box keel
per Watervan, Clam Skiff and the tugs.

The design I've been playing with is a loose adaptation of Jim
Betts' Gypsy's Poke (which he never took beyond the cartoon stage).
A forefoot and perhaps a shallow box keel might go well with this
creature.

Steve H.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation:
> OCR'ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About
> In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and pasted
> below:
>

> I believe both Col. Hasler and FIJI are examples
> Cheers, Nels

Hasler [& Yonder & Motor Sailer & Working Tug, etc.]
have box keels and are displacement hulls.

Fiji (& Topaz) have cutwaters at the bow only and
are planing hulls.

Fastbrick, Watervan, Microtrawler, Bee, Hawkeye, etc.
have cutwaters and full length 'shoes' and are planing hulls.
They look superficially the same, but are really
different. Clam Skiff might even be included in this
catagory.

Champlain, Sitka Explorer, Windermere, Motor
Sailing Cargo Boat, fall in between, but are displacement
boats.

> However, what I'd really be interested in is a semi-quantitative
> explanation of what the forefoot does to a scow/jonboat type hull.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve H

The Bolger writeup for Watervan gives your explanation:
OCR'ed from the excellent magazine _Messing About
In Boats_, [everybody should subscribe!] and pasted
below:
===========================================
Watervan
Design #632
6.92M x 2.46M (22.7 feet x 8.07 feet)
This boat was designed primarily for
Australian rivers and lakes, although capable
of alongshore or even offshore passages in
reasonable weather. In fact, she would have a
better chance in heavy weather than most small
power cruisers if she was prudently handled,
doors and windows secured, etc.
The specification called for a queen-size
double berth, a dinette convertible to a second
double berth, a comfortable helm seat and for-
ward view underway for two or three other
people, enclosed toilet room, workable galley,
standing headroom throughout and a cruising
speed of 20 mph with as little wake and noise
as possible, all inside the dimensions given
for convenience in trailer hauling. Her owner
originally proposed her to be powered with a
diesel waterjet, but when the cost of the power
plant became clear, he decided to settle for the
90 hp, four-stroke outboard motor which is
also a good deal lighter and less intrusive on
the cabin.
The van configuration seemed to be the
only way this roomy a cabin could be packed
inside these dimensions. She's what we call a
cutwater garvey. The slender ski-like cutwater
under the bow gives buoyancy and dynamic
lift forward to carry the flat toboggan bow of
the garvey hull well clear of the water and to
allow the profile curve of the garvey bow to
be a very gentle sweep for low drag and mini-
mal spray making. The cutwater is extended
to the stern as a box keel, again floating the
hull proper higher in the water for reduced
wavemaking and channelling air trapped un-
der the hull away from the propeller. (This also
works with a waterjet intake and is more reli-
able in that respect than the usual slight
deadrise.) The shape is the same we've used
for quite a few boats in recent years, except
that most of the others have the upper part of
the hull curved in to a blunt point above the
cutwater. These pointed bows are mostly "to
make them look like boats," there's no func-
tional advantage to speak of over the rectan-
gular bow. In this case, there was no question
of getting the specified layout in any boatlike
style, and this shape is very straightforward
to assemble as well as being roomy and buoy-
ant.
The forward helm and viewing seats
would be unworkable in a normal garvey with-
out the cutwater. The bow would have to be
too abrupt a curve to float the weight of people
in the bow. It would plow at low speed and
drive hard at planing speed if it could get up
at all. With the cutwater to lift the bow it be-
comes workable, although she is still fastest
if everybody doesn't insist on sitting in the
bow.
A hull like this is very dry. The
sharp-lined cutwater doesn't make much spray,
and what it does make is trapped under the
fiat hull. There are shallow skids along the
outside edges of the bottom to retain some of
the air that would otherwise be forced out at
the sides. The boat rides on a cushion of foam
trapped on each side of the box keel. There is
actually some cushioning effect; in spite of the
large flat areas, these hulls are less noisy and
rough riding than most in choppy water, in-
cluding many deep-vee hulls with big, flat
strakes and spray deflectors. This is not to
claim that they are quiet or smooth! That is
not doable on these proportions at these speeds
on an uneven surface like water, except by
means of foils, which have their own draw-
backs.
One item on the wish list was the ability
to keep running at night, at cruising speed.
without too much risk. Hence the twin, pow-
erful off-road headlights, which brilliantly
illuminate the water for hundreds of feet ahead
without any reflection on any part of the boat.
The square-across bow also incorporates ven-
tilation intakes with efficient baffling to allow
them to be open in a downpour of rain. The
vent outlets are in the deck (or roof) at the
stern, also well baffled and located where ed-
dying fumes from the motor can't reach them.
The motor, and all the fuel, are in watertight
compartments in the stern, where no spills can
reach the cabin. The large doors opening from
the cabin to the motor recess are specified to
be gasketed and dogged airtight whenever the
motor is running.
She can be opened up in all directions in
good weather, from the big bow gate from
which anchor handling is done, the sliding
windows at the sides and the sliding sunroof
overhead, to the entrance doors on each side.
These last open inwards to clear floats,
lock-walls etc. A series of folding platforms
allows outside access to the stern and conve-
nient boarding from small boats. The propane
cylinder for the stove is in an airtight recess in
the galley, opening only to the outside.
We've found that there is not much point
in arguing about the aesthetics of something
like this. You like it, you hate it, or you can or
can't quite tolerate it. But we will argue with
conviction and from experience and expertise
that there is nothing unseamanlike about it. It
can't be compared with anything of equiva-
lent space efficiency because there is nothing
afloat that can match her. But she will run
faster, with less disturbance behind her, with
better control and no more discomfort in rough
water, than most small, fast power cruisers.
She is not a clumsy floating house. Any ob-
jections to it have no objective basis. The ef-
feet on the scenery of a fleet of them is legiti-
mately arguable.

Thanks Nels, I'll look at the Watervan you mention.

However, what I'd really be interested in is a semi-quantitative
explanation of what the forefoot does to a scow/jonboat type hull.

Thanks,
Steve H

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a
> Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to
> contact the owner.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pseudospark" <shansen@t...> wrote:

> So, can someone quantify
> the benefit of forefeet on little boxy craft?
>
> I've been toying with a design that has a hull not unlike Fastbrick
> without the forefoot and wonder if something would be gained by
> adding one.
>
> Steve H

Hi Steve,

If you go back a few posts to 41713, you will see mention of a
Watervan. It has the same forefoot design so you might be able to
contact the owner.

There are some photos in Bolger2 - this might work:

http://tinyurl.com/4wy97

Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jkolb@d...> wrote:

>
> Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted.

Jon,

Your post and photos prompted me to dig out my Sept 1, 2003 MAIB
with PCB's Fastbrick article. I've a question for anyone who can
answer. Normally flatbottomed square hulls are not considered to be
useful or safe in anything more severe than a light chop. (I don't
say this from experience, just from what I've read...all my boats
have flat bottoms but they are of the pointy front variety.) For
example, Jim Michalak cautions against rough water on his scow
hulled craft. The only real difference I see between, say Harmonica
or Campjon, and Fastbrick is the forefoot. So, can someone quantify
the benefit of forefeet on little boxy craft?

I've been toying with a design that has a hull not unlike Fastbrick
without the forefoot and wonder if something would be gained by
adding one.

Steve H

Hi Nels,

> Weel I figure to start you need some shark teeth on that cutwater

and

> an "eye" in each bow:-)

Sort of a hammerhead look, eh? I was thinking of something more
Bahamian, perhaps. On the other hand, those big, flat sides would
make nice canvas for some sort of mural approach.

> When I look at that basic bare, open hull shape I see a lot of
> possibilities for to adapt it for different uses. Certainly as
> a "work" or fishing boat. Also as a platform to try different sail
> shapes and plans - like a lateen rig on a stub mast, with a two-

part

> yard and a poly tarp sail. Or maybe run a "box-keel" down the

bottom

> like the clam skiff and put a bigger motor on it. Maybe some UMHV
> strips for ease of launching aka "The Hallman Technique";-)

Since I'm building it at 12', I thought about moving the mast step to
the centerline and giving the boat a dipping lug for it's emergency
sailing rig, figuring that saving a spar was worth it. However, it
seems to me that the balanced lug shown would be a lot better for
running downwind, so I decided against that plan. The centerline
mast step would also interfere with the deck plate that accesses the
forefoot volume.

> How much are the plans anyway?

I don't know. PCB sent us the plans for free, since we're already
hooked for thousands on our cruiser design. If you have the MAIB
article on this boat, it should say what they cost.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jkolb@d...> wrote:

>
> If you can point me to some good looking mean paint jobs, I'm open

to

> other ideas!

Weel I figure to start you need some shark teeth on that cutwater and
an "eye" in each bow:-)

When I look at that basic bare, open hull shape I see a lot of
possibilities for to adapt it for different uses. Certainly as
a "work" or fishing boat. Also as a platform to try different sail
shapes and plans - like a lateen rig on a stub mast, with a two-part
yard and a poly tarp sail. Or maybe run a "box-keel" down the bottom
like the clam skiff and put a bigger motor on it. Maybe some UMHV
strips for ease of launching aka "The Hallman Technique";-)

How much are the plans anyway?

Thanks, Nels

Hi Nels,

> That plywood looks fine and both boats look great! Gotta give FB a
> bit meaner paint job though:-) How many layers of ply on the FB
> bottom? Is it pretty heavy or about what you expected? Are you
> planning on building the sail rig? Looks like it could take a fair
> sized motor.

If you can point me to some good looking mean paint jobs, I'm open to
other ideas! The bottom is two layers of 1/4" ACX. It's not
particularly heavy right now, but once all the interior bulkheads,
compartments, styrofoam, and interior sheathing are done it will
probably get pretty heavy. I'm hoping to be able to launch it for
trials off of a 16' utility trailer and recover it without a winch,
but I'll bring a come-along just in case. She's probably going to
get a 9.9 if I can afford it, or a 5 if I can't.

As for the sailing rig, yes, I intend to build it, but I'm not sure
when I'll get around to sewing the sail. I know that if I don't
build the rig, leeboard, and rudder now, I'll get too busy with
something else (hopefully our 50-footer) and won't be motivated to
build that stuff later. Better to get it done now while it's the
main project.

> I really find it interesting and intriguing. Of course also

imagining

> a Watervan type top too:-) Like a mini watervan. There is plenty of
> room for some fishing gear, a bed, potti a cooler, and a frying

pan.

> All that a person every needs. Maybe a Birdwatcher type opening

down

> the centre and you could fish in your jammies:-)

I don't intend to use it as a pleasure boat after trials - it's
supposed to be the tender for our cruiser after all, and we've got
the light cat schooner for excitement. As a workboat, however, I was
actually thinking it would make a good firewood hauler. You can
easily put half a cord of wood in this boat without (at least in the
stretched 12' version I'm building) loading it over the rails. Of
course, it would also make a great fishing boat, and with her square
sections you can get right to the sides of the boat to land fish. A
top would make a lot of sense for that usage.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jkolb@d...> wrote:

>
> Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted. I have
> lots of other photos prior to these, but I still need to get them

off

> of my wife's computer (no CD burner on that machine), so it's going
> to be a few more days for the earlier photos to get posted. After
> all the talk about plywood encapsulation and quality, I'm now a
> little worried about using ACX for this boat, some with a luan

face.

>

Hi Jon,

That plywood looks fine and both boats look great! Gotta give FB a
bit meaner paint job though:-) How many layers of ply on the FB
bottom? Is it pretty heavy or about what you expected? Are you
planning on building the sail rig? Looks like it could take a fair
sized motor.

I really find it interesting and intriguing. Of course also imagining
a Watervan type top too:-) Like a mini watervan. There is plenty of
room for some fishing gear, a bed, potti a cooler, and a frying pan.
All that a person every needs. Maybe a Birdwatcher type opening down
the centre and you could fish in your jammies:-)

Cheers, Nels

> Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted.
>http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/fastbrick.htm
> Jon Kolb

Wow, look great. Fastbrick sure is a much bigger
boat than I had imagined in my mind.

Some photos of my 12' FastBrick project have been posted. I have
lots of other photos prior to these, but I still need to get them off
of my wife's computer (no CD burner on that machine), so it's going
to be a few more days for the earlier photos to get posted. After
all the talk about plywood encapsulation and quality, I'm now a
little worried about using ACX for this boat, some with a luan face.
But, it's about all I can get out here in CO without mail ordering
(if someone knows otherwise, please let me know), and it's too late
now anyway. The interior of the hull will get encapsulated with
epoxy as part of installing the styrofoam core that most of the boat
gets
for flotation. I think it will be a good idea to carefully fit the
foam to minimize interior air volumes where condensation could
develop. Here's the link to FastBrick:

http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/fastbrick.htm

And the 8' Tortoise that nests inside FastBrick is completed save for
the oarlocks. The end decks and straddle seat are not to plan and
are my own doing. I'm hoping the aft seat stretcher will be in just
about the right place for a foot brace when rowing. The paint scheme
may be a bit too subtle, but I haven't hauled it into sunlight yet to
see how it looks outdoors. A similar paint scheme will be used on
FastBrick if it looks OK outside. Here's the link to Tortoise:

http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/tortoise.htm

Neither of these links can be navigated to from my main website (if
you like astrophotography, it's here:
http://home.datawest.net/jkolb/).

Jon Kolb