Re: [bolger] Re: Gloucester Gull

James,
Defender Industries has the stuff (and even lighter glass). On the web they're
at: <http://www.DefenderUS.com/>. I am sure that there are other sources, but
this
is the cheapest one I know of,
david

James Fuller wrote:

> I must have missed the original post. I am interested in buying some
> lightweight cloth. Where did you find the 1 oz cloth?
> Thanks,
>
> James
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lincoln Ross" <lincolnr@...>
> To: <bolger@egroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2000 10:34 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Gloucester Gull
>
> > --- Inbolger@egroups.com, david <galvind@w...> wrote:
> > > Lincoln,
> > > I get the impression from the various options available that the
> > main
> > > utility of the cloth in preventing checking is to provide a matrix
> > for a
> > > thick, stable coat of resin.
> >
> > Not sure. The cloth does have a little strength to it.
> >
> > For this you could probably use nylon
> > mosquito
> > > netting or even cheesecloth. Of course, such materials leave a lot
> > to
> > > be desired snip
> >
> > Also, because the resin is the most costly part of
> > the
> > > matrix anyway, it might be false economy to use cheaper but less
> > > optimal materials.
> > Actually, they sold me the glass (which might have been 1 oz) for
> > only
> > $1 a yd. Hard to beat. I was after light weight, as I am trying to
> > stick with cartopping boats to avoid becoming extravagant. THe
> > light glass uses MUCH less epoxy than 6 0z glass. This light glass is
> > a favored model airplane finishing technique. Actually comparable in
> > weight to the usual coverings for radio control planes.
> >
> > It's your dime, however. I would certainly be
> > > interested in hearing the long term results of such an experiment,
> >
> > will let you know if you remember to ask some years from now.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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On Thu, 13 Apr 2000, T Webber wrote:
> A friend and fellow boat builder name Roger Harlow has made a camper and
> several small boats using unbleached muslin over bare plywood and painted
> on with latex paint. His camper has survived 6 years in the sun with no
> checking over yellow pine plywood.
> My JuneBug is fisished with bare Yellow Pine plywood and Red Devil
> Duratex exterior gloss water based enamel. My boat has been outside
> for 3 3/4 years and has not checked. I was going to cover it in
> muslin, but never got around to it!!!

Checking is a very serious problem in douglas fir plywood, and a modest
problem in yellow pine plywood. Like Tim, I would not worry much about
pine, and plenty about doug fir.
--- Inbolger@egroups.com, david <galvind@w...> wrote:
> Lincoln,
> I get the impression from the various options available that the
main
> utility of the cloth in preventing checking is to provide a matrix
for a
> thick, stable coat of resin.

Not sure. The cloth does have a little strength to it.

For this you could probably use nylon
mosquito
> netting or even cheesecloth. Of course, such materials leave a lot
to
> be desired snip

Also, because the resin is the most costly part of
the
> matrix anyway, it might be false economy to use cheaper but less
> optimal materials.
Actually, they sold me the glass (which might have been 1 oz) for
only
$1 a yd. Hard to beat. I was after light weight, as I am trying to
stick with cartopping boats to avoid becoming extravagant. THe
light glass uses MUCH less epoxy than 6 0z glass. This light glass is
a favored model airplane finishing technique. Actually comparable in
weight to the usual coverings for radio control planes.

It's your dime, however. I would certainly be
> interested in hearing the long term results of such an experiment,

will let you know if you remember to ask some years from now.
Lincoln,
I get the impression from the various options available that the main
utility of the cloth in preventing checking is to provide a matrix for a
thick, stable coat of resin. For this you could probably use nylon mosquito
netting or even cheesecloth. Of course, such materials leave a lot to
be desired in terms of puncture and friction resistance, not to mention
overall strength. Also, because the resin is the most costly part of the
matrix anyway, it might be false economy to use cheaper but less
optimal materials. It's your dime, however. I would certainly be
interested in hearing the long term results of such an experiment,
david

Lincoln Ross wrote:

> I've been using 3/4 oz glass from Defender. Very light, but a bit
> tricky to work with compared to heavier cloth. A boat building
> acquaintance of mine uses some kind of non-woven veil for the layer
> next to the mold. Wondering how that would do for preventing checking.
>
Mark

Your problem sounds horribly familiar. What are you using to apply the
epoxy and spread it out? I have had bad experiences with rollers, coupled
with using too much resin in an attempt to get it smooth again. If you
haven't tried one, get a squeegee -- one of the cheap plastic automotive
types will work fine, about 2" by 4". Spread the epoxy on the cloth, give
it a minute to soak in, then go over it to make sure its all wetted out.
After another 10 minutes or so, or longer if you can, come back and squeegee
excess resin off. This helps stop the cloth floating up, smoothes it down,
and keeps excess resin from sagging and making a mess. When squeegeeing the
last time, wipe the squeegee in a cardboard (concentrated juice) can with a
slot cut in it to clean the squeegee between strokes. It is possible to
squeegee too hard and leave the cloth too dry, so don't press too hard. The
weave of the cloth will still be very apparent, although it should all be
wetted and transparent. I takes about another 2 coatings to fill the weave.

I'm no expert at this, but I've made most of the possible mistakes by now,
and the above might help solve your squishiness and hairy ends problem. If
you can find it in your library, read Ted Moores "Canoecraft" for a really
good description of how to do it.

If I'm telling you stuff you already knew, my apologies.

Jamie Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Albanese [mailto:marka@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2000 6:57 PM
To:bolger@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Gloucester Gull


Thanks, fellas. If you think it'll solve that squishiness where it seems
so easy to mess up the weave and then ya can't do anything to fix it but
make it worse, or those spontaneously generated gooey hairs and strings,
next time I'll try some of the Defender cloth.

Mark


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get your bargains at AndysGarage.com!
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------------------------------------------------------------------------
List,

A friend and fellow boat builder name Roger Harlow has made a camper and
several small boats using unbleached muslin over bare plywood and painted
on with latex paint. His camper has survived 6 years in the sun with no
checking over yellow pine plywood. His camper was done with only one coat
of paint. His boat done in that fashion was covered with muslin and painted
in. He then took exterior filler from the lumber yard and filled the weave.
this was sanded smooth and then a final two coats of exterior gloss latex.
The boat is stored in the aforementioned camper and still looks new.

My JuneBug is fisished with bare Yellow Pine plywood and Red Devil Duratex
exterior gloss water based enamel. My boat has been outside for 3 3/4 years
and has not checked. I was going to cover it in muslin, but never got
around to it!!!

Roger's camper and my JuneBug have both suffered wood rot in the framing
materials! Both were "white wood", both bot in the Houston / Corpus Christi
area. I will use a rot preventative on my WindSprint!!

Tim - Messabout in 48 hours and still painting the JuneBug leeboard - mast
step not made!!!
Thanks, fellas. If you think it'll solve that squishiness where it seems
so easy to mess up the weave and then ya can't do anything to fix it but
make it worse, or those spontaneously generated gooey hairs and strings,
next time I'll try some of the Defender cloth.

Mark
Mark,
Have you ever tried or considered any of the plastic alternatives to
fiberglass? Xynole in particular is very flexible and easy to fit, and there's
no itching involved. Defender Industries <http://www.DefenderUS.com/> has a
variety of cloths available at prices competitive with glass. Their
Vectracloth, a polypropylene which I have no experence with, is intriguing at
$3.79/ sq. yd. (Defender is only one source, there are of course many others. I
have no relationship with Defender blah blah blah.). I personally doubt Karl
Stamberg's figures. My own boats check in 1 to 2 years of exposure here in the
cool and cloudy Catskills if they aren't covered with some kind of cloth or
kept in the shop,
david

Mark Albanese wrote:

> Chuck,
>
> You have more experience with this than I, no doubt. I have read the
> experts who concur that fir plywood always needs glass to prevent checking,
> though it has been indicated that the mahoganies may not.
>
> Some people just hate the stuff. I myself like epoxy a lot as glue or
> coating alone, but getting the glass right is usually a headache for me.
>
> I was just reading in Karl Stambaugh's book Good Skiffs about longevity. He
> says:
>
> 1. Painted marine fir = a season or two without checking.
> 2. Soaked thoroughly w/ linseed oil and turpentine prior to oil based paint
> = 5 years.
> 3. Coated w/ epoxy = 5 to 10 years.
> 4. Epoxy + glass = 10 years or more.
>
> For a modest boat, 2 and 3 seem to have a pretty good
> price/performance/effort ratio. #1 looks like a mistake, and 4 first class.
>
> What do you think of this little scheme?
>
> Also, has anybody been using the water based paints for boats?
>
> Mark
>
> Chuck Leinweber wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> >
> > In my experience, epoxy alone will not prevent checking. You will
> > need to apply a layer of light (2 oz.) fiberglass cloth with the
> > resin to stabilize the wood. Perhaps someone else will confirm this.
> >
> > Good luck on the project.
> >
> > Chuck Leinweber
> >
> > --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Richard Sharp" <rbsharp@g...> wrote:
> > > I have decided to spruce up my Gloucester Gull dory. After
> > throwing
> > > all kinds of paint onto it over the last fifteen years, I am taking
> > > it all off with a hot air gun and trying to seal the wood with
> > epoxy,
> > > something I should have done when I built it. The wood has been
> > > splitting and cracking the paint every year. A little sanding and
> > > another coat made it look pretty good.....if you stood back fifty
> > > feet or so.
> > > Yesterday it was sunny and 75 degrees in Philadelphia; early this
> > > morning it was snowing pretty good. Can't wait to get on the water
> > > again! I have been sailing all winter on the computer via "Virtual
> > > Sailor" software. Best investment I ever made!
> > > I just wanted to send this e-mail to be sure I am still with the
> > > group. I have had a little trouble getting here since the changes.
> > > I am interested in hearing from all you Folding Schooner fans.
> > Mine
> > > is still under the covers. It was built 22 years ago and is in
> > > better shape than the dory. Love these Bolger boats!
> > > Rich Sharp
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup
> > Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files.
> > Install today:
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 11:56 12/04/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Mark,
>Have you ever tried or considered any of the plastic alternatives to
>fiberglass? Xynole in particular is very flexible and easy to fit, and there's
>no itching involved. Defender Industries <http://www.DefenderUS.com/> has a
>variety of cloths available at prices competitive with glass. Their
>Vectracloth, a polypropylene which I have no experence with, is intriguing at
>$3.79/ sq. yd. (Defender is only one source, there are of course many others. I
>have no relationship with Defender blah blah blah.). I personally doubt Karl
>Stamberg's figures. My own boats check in 1 to 2 years of exposure here in the
>cool and cloudy Catskills if they aren't covered with some kind of cloth or
>kept in the shop,
>david
>

What about Terylene which I believe is the same as Dacron? Terylene can be
bought at any fabric shop.
I've been using 3/4 oz glass from Defender. Very light, but a bit
tricky to work with compared to heavier cloth. A boat building
acquaintance of mine uses some kind of non-woven veil for the layer
next to the mold. Wondering how that would do for preventing checking.


--- Inbolger@egroups.com, david <galvind@w...> wrote:
> Mark,
> Have you ever tried or considered any of the plastic alternatives to
> fiberglass? Xynole in particular is very flexible and easy to fit,
and there's
> no itching involved. Defender Industries
<http://www.DefenderUS.com/> has a
> variety of cloths available at prices competitive with glass. Their
> Vectracloth, a polypropylene which I have no experence with, is
intriguing at
>snip
>
>
Mark:

Those numbers look OK if your boat is on a trailer and under a roof,
but if it is at a mooring, in a slip, or otherwise out in the
weather, I would halve them. I built PCB's Tennessee, and covered
everything with two coats of epoxy without glass. The bottom did not
check in five years, but the decks lasted only a year. I sanded them
down and reapplied epoxy, then repainted, and they lasted another
year. - Chuck

> Chuck,
>
> You have more experience with this than I, no doubt. I have read the
> experts who concur that fir plywood always needs glass to prevent
checking,
> though it has been indicated that the mahoganies may not.
>
> Some people just hate the stuff. I myself like epoxy a lot as glue
or
> coating alone, but getting the glass right is usually a headache
for me.
>
> I was just reading in Karl Stambaugh's book Good Skiffs about
longevity. He
> says:
>
> 1. Painted marine fir = a season or two without checking.
> 2. Soaked thoroughly w/ linseed oil and turpentine prior to oil
based paint
> = 5 years.
> 3. Coated w/ epoxy = 5 to 10 years.
> 4. Epoxy + glass = 10 years or more.
>
> For a modest boat, 2 and 3 seem to have a pretty good
> price/performance/effort ratio. #1 looks like a mistake, and 4
first class.
>
> What do you think of this little scheme?
>
> Also, has anybody been using the water based paints for boats?
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Chuck Leinweber wrote:
>
> > Richard:
> >
> > In my experience, epoxy alone will not prevent checking. You will
> > need to apply a layer of light (2 oz.) fiberglass cloth with the
> > resin to stabilize the wood. Perhaps someone else will confirm
this.
> >
> > Good luck on the project.
> >
> > Chuck Leinweber
> >
> > --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Richard Sharp" <rbsharp@g...> wrote:
> > > I have decided to spruce up my Gloucester Gull dory. After
> > throwing
> > > all kinds of paint onto it over the last fifteen years, I am
taking
> > > it all off with a hot air gun and trying to seal the wood with
> > epoxy,
> > > something I should have done when I built it. The wood has been
> > > splitting and cracking the paint every year. A little sanding
and
> > > another coat made it look pretty good.....if you stood back
fifty
> > > feet or so.
> > > Yesterday it was sunny and 75 degrees in Philadelphia; early
this
> > > morning it was snowing pretty good. Can't wait to get on the
water
> > > again! I have been sailing all winter on the computer
via "Virtual
> > > Sailor" software. Best investment I ever made!
> > > I just wanted to send this e-mail to be sure I am still with the
> > > group. I have had a little trouble getting here since the
changes.
> > > I am interested in hearing from all you Folding Schooner fans.
> > Mine
> > > is still under the covers. It was built 22 years ago and is in
> > > better shape than the dory. Love these Bolger boats!
> > > Rich Sharp
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup
> > Get automatic protection and access to your important computer
files.
> > Install today:
> >http://click.egroups.com/1/2344/6/_/3457/_/955391349/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
Chuck,

You have more experience with this than I, no doubt. I have read the
experts who concur that fir plywood always needs glass to prevent checking,
though it has been indicated that the mahoganies may not.

Some people just hate the stuff. I myself like epoxy a lot as glue or
coating alone, but getting the glass right is usually a headache for me.

I was just reading in Karl Stambaugh's book Good Skiffs about longevity. He
says:

1. Painted marine fir = a season or two without checking.
2. Soaked thoroughly w/ linseed oil and turpentine prior to oil based paint
= 5 years.
3. Coated w/ epoxy = 5 to 10 years.
4. Epoxy + glass = 10 years or more.

For a modest boat, 2 and 3 seem to have a pretty good
price/performance/effort ratio. #1 looks like a mistake, and 4 first class.

What do you think of this little scheme?

Also, has anybody been using the water based paints for boats?

Mark



Chuck Leinweber wrote:

> Richard:
>
> In my experience, epoxy alone will not prevent checking. You will
> need to apply a layer of light (2 oz.) fiberglass cloth with the
> resin to stabilize the wood. Perhaps someone else will confirm this.
>
> Good luck on the project.
>
> Chuck Leinweber
>
> --- Inbolger@egroups.com, "Richard Sharp" <rbsharp@g...> wrote:
> > I have decided to spruce up my Gloucester Gull dory. After
> throwing
> > all kinds of paint onto it over the last fifteen years, I am taking
> > it all off with a hot air gun and trying to seal the wood with
> epoxy,
> > something I should have done when I built it. The wood has been
> > splitting and cracking the paint every year. A little sanding and
> > another coat made it look pretty good.....if you stood back fifty
> > feet or so.
> > Yesterday it was sunny and 75 degrees in Philadelphia; early this
> > morning it was snowing pretty good. Can't wait to get on the water
> > again! I have been sailing all winter on the computer via "Virtual
> > Sailor" software. Best investment I ever made!
> > I just wanted to send this e-mail to be sure I am still with the
> > group. I have had a little trouble getting here since the changes.
> > I am interested in hearing from all you Folding Schooner fans.
> Mine
> > is still under the covers. It was built 22 years ago and is in
> > better shape than the dory. Love these Bolger boats!
> > Rich Sharp
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Special Offer-Earn 300 Points from MyPoints.com for trying @Backup
> Get automatic protection and access to your important computer files.
> Install today:
>http://click.egroups.com/1/2344/6/_/3457/_/955391349/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------