Re: Bolger Kayak?
> I made a model, see pictures here:I haven't received the Feb issue of MAIB. I have uploaded a photo of
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/269254456jqIYmP
>
> It is a pretty darn interesting innovation in kayaks I think,
> as it takes on the 'boxy sides' signature of Bolger, unlike
> all the other kayaks I can think of, I want one!
Bob Cushing in his Cruising Kayak in the Kayak folder in "Photos". It
appeared in an old issue of Chebacco News. I bought the plans several
years ago and I am dying to build it - although I think I have to
stick to virtual boat building if I want to stay married...
Bruce, I like it. Yesterday I bought a plastic kayak,
with a sail, paddle, bilge pump, cover and spray skirt
for $500. Now I need a kayak style pfd and I'll be
set.
I should order the plans and build one. Victor needs a
kayak and I need to build a boat.
Phil
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
with a sail, paddle, bilge pump, cover and spray skirt
for $500. Now I need a kayak style pfd and I'll be
set.
I should order the plans and build one. Victor needs a
kayak and I need to build a boat.
Phil
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>http://us.click.yahoo.com/2YkgMD/fV0JAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
> > I know the old one as the "Cruising Kayak." That
> has a big trunk on deck behind the
> > cockpit. The same?
> > Mark
>
> I haven't seen my MAIB yet, but I am guessing yes.
> The 'Cruising Kayak' has a diamond shaped part to
> the
> bottom.
>
> I am not exactly sure what the definition of the
> phrase
> 'tortured plywood' means, but I don't think the
> trapezoidal
> bottom pieces are tortured, but rather they are
> twisted.
>
> I made a model, see pictures here:
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/269254456jqIYmP
>
> It is a pretty darn interesting innovation in kayaks
> I think,
> as it takes on the 'boxy sides' signature of Bolger,
> unlike
> all the other kayaks I can think of, I want one!
>
>
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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I have posted a pnoto of the Minimum Kayak in the KAYAKS album.
I was building boats with seventh grade students and Eric is the
biggest one I have seen. The 12 ft kayak was too small for him so we
lengthened it to 15 ft which worked beautifully. The 12 ft one was
scarey for me even at 155 lb. The longer one was most satisfactory.
Note that this is an open kayak and must be used with descretion.
I was building boats with seventh grade students and Eric is the
biggest one I have seen. The 12 ft kayak was too small for him so we
lengthened it to 15 ft which worked beautifully. The 12 ft one was
scarey for me even at 155 lb. The longer one was most satisfactory.
Note that this is an open kayak and must be used with descretion.
I take torturing to be distorting the panel beyond what can be projected from a standard
lines plan on paper. The panel shape drawings for the famous Dennis Davis Kayaks, Origami
dinghy et al are reverse engineered, so to speak. Phil wrote me once that he tries
torturing in a timid way occasionally but that the problem is not being able to really
predict the resulting shape very well.
He's since bragged also on Topaz I think, that he's learned to get the shape he wants,
"Without torturing."
Torturing distorts the panel outside of true sections of cones and cylinders -which
twisting may not. The curve of bilge in the kayak's forward bulkhead is pretty
interesting. Between the bottom and the upper side, the shape looks quite a perfect
circle.
Loved your model. Getting that out of the MAIB page was very crafty, friend.
Mark
Bruce Hallman wrote:
lines plan on paper. The panel shape drawings for the famous Dennis Davis Kayaks, Origami
dinghy et al are reverse engineered, so to speak. Phil wrote me once that he tries
torturing in a timid way occasionally but that the problem is not being able to really
predict the resulting shape very well.
He's since bragged also on Topaz I think, that he's learned to get the shape he wants,
"Without torturing."
Torturing distorts the panel outside of true sections of cones and cylinders -which
twisting may not. The curve of bilge in the kayak's forward bulkhead is pretty
interesting. Between the bottom and the upper side, the shape looks quite a perfect
circle.
Loved your model. Getting that out of the MAIB page was very crafty, friend.
Mark
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>
> > I know the old one as the "Cruising Kayak." That has a big trunk on deck behind the
> > cockpit. The same?
> > Mark
>
> I haven't seen my MAIB yet, but I am guessing yes.
> The 'Cruising Kayak' has a diamond shaped part to the
> bottom.
>
> I am not exactly sure what the definition of the phrase
> 'tortured plywood' means, but I don't think the trapezoidal
> bottom pieces are tortured, but rather they are twisted.
>
> I made a model, see pictures here:
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/269254456jqIYmP
>
> It is a pretty darn interesting innovation in kayaks I think,
> as it takes on the 'boxy sides' signature of Bolger, unlike
> all the other kayaks I can think of, I want one!
> Ò
I know the old one as the "Cruising Kayak." That has a big trunk on deck behind the
cockpit. The same?
Mark
soussouchew wrote:
cockpit. The same?
Mark
soussouchew wrote:
> The new issue of Messing About In Boats (Feb. 1, 2005) has anWill Samson wrote:
> article about Bolger's latest plywood kayak design he calls
> "Diamond" (design # 615). It is 19' 6" x 1' 11".
>
> I believe that 'Diamond' is the same as the one I called the 'Cargo Kayak'.
Roger, et al:
Roger's points are excellent....I didn't mean a water heater. I was
advocating an old residential propane (liquid natural gas) tank since
they are rated for 280 PSI at 650 degrees F.
As Roger notes, with any vessel (boat or air tank) opening it up and
doing a visual for rust in the bottom is essential. Propane tanks
don't have moisture drains so it would have to be added for
compressed air use. They also might look rank on the outside and be
pristine on the inside.
A 100 gallon propane tank actually holds a whopping 120 gallons of
air, enough to power the universe.
Dave
Roger's points are excellent....I didn't mean a water heater. I was
advocating an old residential propane (liquid natural gas) tank since
they are rated for 280 PSI at 650 degrees F.
As Roger notes, with any vessel (boat or air tank) opening it up and
doing a visual for rust in the bottom is essential. Propane tanks
don't have moisture drains so it would have to be added for
compressed air use. They also might look rank on the outside and be
pristine on the inside.
A 100 gallon propane tank actually holds a whopping 120 gallons of
air, enough to power the universe.
Dave
> I know the old one as the "Cruising Kayak." That has a big trunk on deck behind theI haven't seen my MAIB yet, but I am guessing yes.
> cockpit. The same?
> Mark
The 'Cruising Kayak' has a diamond shaped part to the
bottom.
I am not exactly sure what the definition of the phrase
'tortured plywood' means, but I don't think the trapezoidal
bottom pieces are tortured, but rather they are twisted.
I made a model, see pictures here:
http://community.webshots.com/album/269254456jqIYmP
It is a pretty darn interesting innovation in kayaks I think,
as it takes on the 'boxy sides' signature of Bolger, unlike
all the other kayaks I can think of, I want one!
I worked with a lady in Fort Worth who's father had salvaged one of the
small portable air tanks. Age, abuse, rust, ??, it exploded on him and cost
him both his legs.
The ASME sets standards for "pressure vessels," and, while it's been a while
since I read them, I seem to remember that it requires testing at 3x working
pressure plus 100 psi. There are outfits that will do this for you, but the
cost/convenience was such that I just bought a replacement for my little
tank.
You can test them yourself if you have a pressure gauge that goes to 500 psi
or so. Fill the tank solid (no bubbles) with cold water, cap it, and set it
in the sun. When the gauge gets over 400 psi open the plug to relieve the
pressure. You're good for 100 psi working pressure. Note that water does
not make a tank explode. Steam, air, and other gasses do.
Do not look longingly at the old water heater your neighbor is discarding.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
small portable air tanks. Age, abuse, rust, ??, it exploded on him and cost
him both his legs.
The ASME sets standards for "pressure vessels," and, while it's been a while
since I read them, I seem to remember that it requires testing at 3x working
pressure plus 100 psi. There are outfits that will do this for you, but the
cost/convenience was such that I just bought a replacement for my little
tank.
You can test them yourself if you have a pressure gauge that goes to 500 psi
or so. Fill the tank solid (no bubbles) with cold water, cap it, and set it
in the sun. When the gauge gets over 400 psi open the plug to relieve the
pressure. You're good for 100 psi working pressure. Note that water does
not make a tank explode. Steam, air, and other gasses do.
Do not look longingly at the old water heater your neighbor is discarding.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "dvd_godsey" <dvd_godsey@...>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
One could theoretically put a small compressor on a 100 gallon
propane tank (assuming they are rated for 100 psi) and get enough
working time out of the tank to get most jobs done. You can
also 'daisy chain' tanks to increase capacity. If you need
rapid charging / recovery that wouldn't work. For most air tools
except large sanders, you can't outrun the compressor.
Dave
On the subject of staplers, I am looking for a source of plastic 1/2 in
crown staples at least 1" long and a stapler to shoot them. I can find
lots up to 9/16 long.
HJ
dvd_godsey wrote:
crown staples at least 1" long and a stapler to shoot them. I can find
lots up to 9/16 long.
HJ
dvd_godsey wrote:
>
>
>
>>I know nothing about pneumatic sanders. Presumably some kind of
>>
>>
>compressor is needed? Are these big? Expensive? What other tools
>can they be used to power?
>
>Pneumatic tools are often 1/4 the weight of electrical devices (some
>solenoid powered staplers the one exception)AND less money. Fatigue
>is dramatically reduced - you'll be hooked for life.
>
>Some devices are full-on/off, others you can throttle - you can
>always add a little flow controller at the tool inlet if needed.
>
>Check out online tool people to see your amazing tool choices;
>grinders, nibblers, cutoff saws, roofing nailers, frame nailers, brad
>guns, blow nozzles, painting systems, etc.
>
>Need to do a 'stitch and goo' hull? A 1/4" crown stapler can shoot
>1/2" to 1-1/2" staples but you cut the pressure back and they won't
>go in all the way making removal easier! Many staples are available
>in stainless if you need to leave them in.
>
>Compressors are very affordable now with the advent of diaphram
>(versus piston) units. Compact, one-hand carrying and very quiet.
>
>Check the PSI and flow (CFM) specs of the tools you need to ensure
>the compressor will deliver.
>
>Quick disconnects make life easier when using multiple tools.
>Put a drop of oil in the inlet, plug in and go....you should be able
>to knock off a sanding job in a fraction of the hand-sanding ordeal
>with none of the pain.
>
>One bad thing, you'll be saying goodbye to long, agonizing, "will I
>ever get this damned thing done?" jobs. Sorry.
>
>Dave
>
>
>
>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
Dont forget about amperage. Many compressors (like my Campbell)
will blow a 15 amp circuit if you add extension cords. Many can be
rewired for 220 service if it is an issue. Extra hose or Schedule
40 PVC feeder lines usually solves the location problem.
Shopped around and found a zippy dual piston Porter Cable online and
clipped the specs out of the manual:
SPECIFICATIONS
Model No. CPFC2TV3525VP
* Voltage/Hertz/Phase 120/60/1
** Minimum Branch Circuit Requirement 15 amps
Amperage at Max. Load 15 Amp
Air Tank Capacity (Gallon) 25
Approximate Cut-in Pressure 145 PSIG
Approximate Cut-out Pressure 175 PSIG
SCFM @ 90 PSIG 5.1
Note the last line - the 90 psi rate is the benchmark. A 6 CFM tool
will draw down faster than it can replenish so you would have to
take occasional breaks. A tool rated for 6 CFM at 50 psi would go
and go. Also note the 145 to 175 psi charging window for this
unit. It's tank is a 25, but with higher pressure, they claim it is
the equal of a 60 gallon.
Because it is oiless, you can spray automotive grade acrylics with
this number without the fear of petroleum vapor affecting your paint
job. If I didn't already have a compressor, I would give this one a
serious look.
Dave
will blow a 15 amp circuit if you add extension cords. Many can be
rewired for 220 service if it is an issue. Extra hose or Schedule
40 PVC feeder lines usually solves the location problem.
Shopped around and found a zippy dual piston Porter Cable online and
clipped the specs out of the manual:
SPECIFICATIONS
Model No. CPFC2TV3525VP
* Voltage/Hertz/Phase 120/60/1
** Minimum Branch Circuit Requirement 15 amps
Amperage at Max. Load 15 Amp
Air Tank Capacity (Gallon) 25
Approximate Cut-in Pressure 145 PSIG
Approximate Cut-out Pressure 175 PSIG
SCFM @ 90 PSIG 5.1
Note the last line - the 90 psi rate is the benchmark. A 6 CFM tool
will draw down faster than it can replenish so you would have to
take occasional breaks. A tool rated for 6 CFM at 50 psi would go
and go. Also note the 145 to 175 psi charging window for this
unit. It's tank is a 25, but with higher pressure, they claim it is
the equal of a 60 gallon.
Because it is oiless, you can spray automotive grade acrylics with
this number without the fear of petroleum vapor affecting your paint
job. If I didn't already have a compressor, I would give this one a
serious look.
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
More compressor thoughts
> > My question [is that how can one determine the CFM
> output of such an air compressor?
I have yet to see a table that explains the sliding scale between
pressure and flow so one can make sense out of compressors. I'm
going to do more research on this one.
>
> I'd bet that any two cylinder compressor could easily
> run most air tools.
Total piston diameter and stroke determines how long it would take
to fully charge a tank of whatever size. A friend of mine has a
fairly small two piston compressor atop a very large tank. It takes
a while to bring it up to pressure but you have enough volume to do
most tasks before the tool lags.
One could theoretically put a small compressor on a 100 gallon
propane tank (assuming they are rated for 100 psi) and get enough
working time out of the tank to get most jobs done. You can
also 'daisy chain' tanks to increase capacity. If you need
rapid charging / recovery that wouldn't work. For most air tools
except large sanders, you can't outrun the compressor.
Dave
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
designed with short rowing outriggers, and has a 40 sq. ft sprit sail
rig, tiller lines and leeboard.
Here is a link to a 'stretched version' (Of course!)
http://www.belljar.net/boat.htm
Why hundreds of these were not built I will never know. Perfect for
inshore messing:-)
Cheers, Nels
> > Any others I haven't mentioned?There is the 16' X 3'3" CSD Pirogue which is kayak-like but also
> >
> > Bill
designed with short rowing outriggers, and has a 40 sq. ft sprit sail
rig, tiller lines and leeboard.
Here is a link to a 'stretched version' (Of course!)
http://www.belljar.net/boat.htm
Why hundreds of these were not built I will never know. Perfect for
inshore messing:-)
Cheers, Nels
> My question [is that how can one determine the CFMoutput of such an air compressor? I know that air
sanders require a lot of CFM. The one I have is a two
cylinder model and has perhaps a 10 gallon tank, but
how the heck can I measure CFM?
The easiest thing would be to check the manufacturer's
web site or send them a letter. Failing that, if your
compressor still has the tag on the motor, you could
get an idea about how many CFM by comaring the
amperage your compressor draws with the amperage
other, new compressors draw and looking up those
compressor's cfm specifications.
I'd bet that any two cylinder compressor could easily
run most air tools.
Phil Smith
> Check your local newspaper, garage sales, estate sales,That is what I did, found one for $60 on Craigslist.
> etc. for used compressors
> Dave
It had been refurbished after a garage fire. My question
is that how can one determine the CFM output of such
an air compressor? I know that air sanders require a lot
of CFM. The one I have is a two cylinder model and has
perhaps a 10 gallon tank, but how the heck can I
measure CFM?
> Any others I haven't mentioned?No doubt there are...Phil Bolger has a kayak fetish.
>
> Bill
I think that if you count the hours spent in a boat
as an indicator of preference, the kayak, specifically
cruising kayaks, & Kotick is PCB's choice.
I believe that 'Diamond' is the same as the one I called the 'Cargo Kayak'.
Interestingly, Bob Cushing built his from 1/4" ply, which shows it can be done, but obviously the weight would be much less if 1/8" is used.
It's good that a boat with only 23" beam is stable. I guess that's because of the hard bilges. Kotick has the same beam, and although strip planked is also very hard-bilged for a kayak. Phil has certainly "been there and done that" with these kayaks.
I have a 23" beam, round bottomed baidarka, and that is certainly not stable in the usual sense! Having said that, although it feels tippy, it's very forgiving and will recover from quite large angles of heel - so good 'secondary' stability. I guess Phil's have excellent 'primary' stability and won't feel nearly so tippy.
At 19'6" I bet Diamond will have a good turn of speed, given a strong paddler. I also bet that she won't turn on a dime, though I could be wrong.
Bill
Interestingly, Bob Cushing built his from 1/4" ply, which shows it can be done, but obviously the weight would be much less if 1/8" is used.
It's good that a boat with only 23" beam is stable. I guess that's because of the hard bilges. Kotick has the same beam, and although strip planked is also very hard-bilged for a kayak. Phil has certainly "been there and done that" with these kayaks.
I have a 23" beam, round bottomed baidarka, and that is certainly not stable in the usual sense! Having said that, although it feels tippy, it's very forgiving and will recover from quite large angles of heel - so good 'secondary' stability. I guess Phil's have excellent 'primary' stability and won't feel nearly so tippy.
At 19'6" I bet Diamond will have a good turn of speed, given a strong paddler. I also bet that she won't turn on a dime, though I could be wrong.
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: soussouchew
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 1:38 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger Kayak?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
> I seem to remember that Phil drew an open kayak-like
> boat. I think I need a kayak or a boat like a kayak.
The new issue of Messing About In Boats (Feb. 1, 2005) has an
article about Bolger's latest plywood kayak design he calls
"Diamond" (design # 615). It is 19' 6" x 1' 11". He says it is
designed -- "more for comfort than for athleticism". It is a -- "stiff
boat that doesn't depend on the paddle to stay the right way up".
It is called "Diamond" because the building process starts with a
"perfectly flat diamond shape amidships which is doubled up, to
stand stepping on and sitting down hard". 1/8" plywood is
specified.
Vince
Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
article about Bolger's latest plywood kayak design he calls
"Diamond" (design # 615). It is 19' 6" x 1' 11". He says it is
designed -- "more for comfort than for athleticism". It is a -- "stiff
boat that doesn't depend on the paddle to stay the right way up".
It is called "Diamond" because the building process starts with a
"perfectly flat diamond shape amidships which is doubled up, to
stand stepping on and sitting down hard". 1/8" plywood is
specified.
Vince
> I seem to remember that Phil drew an open kayak-likeThe new issue of Messing About In Boats (Feb. 1, 2005) has an
> boat. I think I need a kayak or a boat like a kayak.
article about Bolger's latest plywood kayak design he calls
"Diamond" (design # 615). It is 19' 6" x 1' 11". He says it is
designed -- "more for comfort than for athleticism". It is a -- "stiff
boat that doesn't depend on the paddle to stay the right way up".
It is called "Diamond" because the building process starts with a
"perfectly flat diamond shape amidships which is doubled up, to
stand stepping on and sitting down hard". 1/8" plywood is
specified.
Vince
There are 6 designs I know of that just about meet your description:
Queen Mab is a tiny (7'?) sailing boat that can be propelled by double paddle when the wind drops.
Then there's the 'Instant Kayak' (11'?) as described in Payson's "Instant Boats" - kind of a river kayak this one, rather than a sea kayak.
There's Kotick - a strip planked sea kayak. Very pretty. Bolger himself has been paddling one for many years.
There's also the "Cargo Kayak" - a 20-footer with shapely tortured ply ends and rectangular midsection. I think Bob Cushing build one. It has one cockpit plus a cargo-hold behind it.
If the deck isn't important to you, the Payson Pirogue (13') is a single or 2-seater double-paddle canoe. Plans are available from Payson. I can personally recommend this design which was my favourite boat for a number of years.
Finally, there's the "Peero" - plans available free from Craig O'Donnell's "Cheap Pages" website. I think it's about 11' and is designed to sail as well as paddle. John Harris built a couple of these and he and Craig seemed to have a lot of fun with them.
Any others I haven't mentioned?
Bill
Queen Mab is a tiny (7'?) sailing boat that can be propelled by double paddle when the wind drops.
Then there's the 'Instant Kayak' (11'?) as described in Payson's "Instant Boats" - kind of a river kayak this one, rather than a sea kayak.
There's Kotick - a strip planked sea kayak. Very pretty. Bolger himself has been paddling one for many years.
There's also the "Cargo Kayak" - a 20-footer with shapely tortured ply ends and rectangular midsection. I think Bob Cushing build one. It has one cockpit plus a cargo-hold behind it.
If the deck isn't important to you, the Payson Pirogue (13') is a single or 2-seater double-paddle canoe. Plans are available from Payson. I can personally recommend this design which was my favourite boat for a number of years.
Finally, there's the "Peero" - plans available free from Craig O'Donnell's "Cheap Pages" website. I think it's about 11' and is designed to sail as well as paddle. John Harris built a couple of these and he and Craig seemed to have a lot of fun with them.
Any others I haven't mentioned?
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: Philip Smith
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 4:34 AM
Subject: [bolger] Bolger Kayak?
I seem to remember that Phil drew an open kayak-like
boat. I think I need a kayak or a boat like a kayak.
Am I remembering correctly or has my advanced age
befuddled me?
If he drew one has anyone here built one or is the war
story on the web someplace?
Phil Smith
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
His kayak design was called Kotick...about 13' long. I think
Dynamite Payson has plans for it for sale.
Reed
> I seem to remember that Phil drew an open kayak-likeHi Phil,
> boat. I think I need a kayak or a boat like a kayak.
> Am I remembering correctly or has my advanced age
> befuddled me?
His kayak design was called Kotick...about 13' long. I think
Dynamite Payson has plans for it for sale.
Reed
Bill - did some research for both of us. I have a compressor (bought
mine and a 1" crown stapler, then sold the stapler for $50 less than
it cost and kept the compressor). Net savings for my roof? Around
$3,000.
Still have to get the sander, tho'. Noted the cheaper Astro has a
lower 6 CFM @ 90 PSI demand than the Chicago which is an industrial
grade and wants a big bruiser to feed it.
Reconditioned 20-30 gallon compressors are the big hit - found
reconditioned in the mid $200s.
Before you pass out from sticker shock, look the other air tools and
think total tool cost-Northern Tool $ is about average for import
stuff. Drills are a fraction the size/weight and cost of electric as
are many other items.
Check your local newspaper, garage sales, estate sales, etc. for used
compressors and scope out your friends for a short-term loaner if you
can't justify your own.
Dave
mine and a 1" crown stapler, then sold the stapler for $50 less than
it cost and kept the compressor). Net savings for my roof? Around
$3,000.
Still have to get the sander, tho'. Noted the cheaper Astro has a
lower 6 CFM @ 90 PSI demand than the Chicago which is an industrial
grade and wants a big bruiser to feed it.
Reconditioned 20-30 gallon compressors are the big hit - found
reconditioned in the mid $200s.
Before you pass out from sticker shock, look the other air tools and
think total tool cost-Northern Tool $ is about average for import
stuff. Drills are a fraction the size/weight and cost of electric as
are many other items.
Check your local newspaper, garage sales, estate sales, etc. for used
compressors and scope out your friends for a short-term loaner if you
can't justify your own.
Dave
I seem to remember that Phil drew an open kayak-like
boat. I think I need a kayak or a boat like a kayak.
Am I remembering correctly or has my advanced age
befuddled me?
If he drew one has anyone here built one or is the war
story on the web someplace?
Phil Smith
boat. I think I need a kayak or a boat like a kayak.
Am I remembering correctly or has my advanced age
befuddled me?
If he drew one has anyone here built one or is the war
story on the web someplace?
Phil Smith
Has anyone tried useing a few drops of dish soap in a bucket of water
to help reduce clogging the sand paper. When working primer coats on
autos we always added a little (Few drops) of soap it helped with the
cloging and acted as a lube.
Jon
to help reduce clogging the sand paper. When working primer coats on
autos we always added a little (Few drops) of soap it helped with the
cloging and acted as a lube.
Jon
> I know nothing about pneumatic sanders. Presumably some kind ofcompressor is needed? Are these big? Expensive? What other tools
can they be used to power?
Pneumatic tools are often 1/4 the weight of electrical devices (some
solenoid powered staplers the one exception)AND less money. Fatigue
is dramatically reduced - you'll be hooked for life.
Some devices are full-on/off, others you can throttle - you can
always add a little flow controller at the tool inlet if needed.
Check out online tool people to see your amazing tool choices;
grinders, nibblers, cutoff saws, roofing nailers, frame nailers, brad
guns, blow nozzles, painting systems, etc.
Need to do a 'stitch and goo' hull? A 1/4" crown stapler can shoot
1/2" to 1-1/2" staples but you cut the pressure back and they won't
go in all the way making removal easier! Many staples are available
in stainless if you need to leave them in.
Compressors are very affordable now with the advent of diaphram
(versus piston) units. Compact, one-hand carrying and very quiet.
Check the PSI and flow (CFM) specs of the tools you need to ensure
the compressor will deliver.
Quick disconnects make life easier when using multiple tools.
Put a drop of oil in the inlet, plug in and go....you should be able
to knock off a sanding job in a fraction of the hand-sanding ordeal
with none of the pain.
One bad thing, you'll be saying goodbye to long, agonizing, "will I
ever get this damned thing done?" jobs. Sorry.
Dave
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>I know nothing about pneumatic sanders. Presumablysome kind of compressor is needed? Are these big?
Expensive? What other tools can they be used to
power?
Pnumatic sanders need a compressor. One of their big
advantages is that they run cool, the escaping
compressed air cools the hand. Generally, ignoring the
cost of the compressor, they are less expensive than
an electric sander.
Phil Smith
> 1. Purchase a LOW RPM (900, not 10K), PNEUMATIC, gear driven randomDave - I think you've put your finger right on the problem I've been having - Low RPM! I have noticed that when hand-sanding I'm not nearly so bothered with clogging as when using my random orbit sander. With wet/dry hand-sanding the problem disappears.
> orbit sander. The price range runs from around 50 for an Astro to
> 175 for a Chicago. I am not on which models have speed control built
> into the paddle.
I know nothing about pneumatic sanders. Presumably some kind of compressor is needed? Are these big? Expensive? What other tools can they be used to power?
Thanks for your insights!
Bill
PS The sanding job is over now - but maybe next time [and I always vow after sanding epoxy, "NEVER AGAIN!"] it'll be less unpleasant.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've found aluminum oxide lasts pretty well and cuts better than
others, garnet, for instance. I haven't tried anything more exotice.
Jamie
others, garnet, for instance. I haven't tried anything more exotice.
Jamie
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and
other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs
rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand
away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
>
> I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons
of epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First the caveat....I am a newbie here and have not done fiberglas in
many years but here is how we used to do it on the elevator control
surfaces on A-6 aircraft in prehistoric (before velcro sanding pad)
times:
1. Purchase a LOW RPM (900, not 10K), PNEUMATIC, gear driven random
orbit sander. The price range runs from around 50 for an Astro to
175 for a Chicago. I am not on which models have speed control built
into the paddle.
2. If you can locate an 8" conversion kit, switch the unit to velcro
capable-the pad gets the hook side.
3. Use wet & dry papers with velcro backs. They cost a bit more but
the convenience is worth it's weight in gold.
With pneumatics you get several advantages:
a. it is a power tool that won't zap you when using with water
b. you can control speed with paddle and/or regulator pressure
c. with water you don't have toxic dust everywhere - respirator
not needed but a plastic full face mask is a plus.
Now the bad part - in a place you can make a mess, rig up some
arrangement that dribbles water on the work area. Drip irrigation
stuff is cheap and works well. Put on a rain suit and start
sanding. You will be glad you did it when you get a technique down.
Well cured glass is still critical even with low rpms, light pressure
and water for cooling and to carry away waste.
Another recommendation is to go to a Corvette or custom body shop
where they do lots of glass and see what they are doing.
I will be bumping up against this same issue in a few months and the
above is my plan. I know there are 8" low speed orbitals but I would
prefer a palm sander IF there is a low RPM version out there.
Dave Godsey
many years but here is how we used to do it on the elevator control
surfaces on A-6 aircraft in prehistoric (before velcro sanding pad)
times:
1. Purchase a LOW RPM (900, not 10K), PNEUMATIC, gear driven random
orbit sander. The price range runs from around 50 for an Astro to
175 for a Chicago. I am not on which models have speed control built
into the paddle.
2. If you can locate an 8" conversion kit, switch the unit to velcro
capable-the pad gets the hook side.
3. Use wet & dry papers with velcro backs. They cost a bit more but
the convenience is worth it's weight in gold.
With pneumatics you get several advantages:
a. it is a power tool that won't zap you when using with water
b. you can control speed with paddle and/or regulator pressure
c. with water you don't have toxic dust everywhere - respirator
not needed but a plastic full face mask is a plus.
Now the bad part - in a place you can make a mess, rig up some
arrangement that dribbles water on the work area. Drip irrigation
stuff is cheap and works well. Put on a rain suit and start
sanding. You will be glad you did it when you get a technique down.
Well cured glass is still critical even with low rpms, light pressure
and water for cooling and to carry away waste.
Another recommendation is to go to a Corvette or custom body shop
where they do lots of glass and see what they are doing.
I will be bumping up against this same issue in a few months and the
above is my plan. I know there are 8" low speed orbitals but I would
prefer a palm sander IF there is a low RPM version out there.
Dave Godsey
Sir Wully,
Aluminium-oxide for good old all around heavy sanding through
epoxy,wood,concrete,steel etc especially when used at the end of a
small right-angle grinder(my personal all time favorite boatbuilding
tool,right after the spirit level) and for some really sweet,hard to
gum up paper,Siafast Blueline.Absolutely a dream paper to work with
and it is from your side of the pond ta boot!
Sanding tip:
Never
"force" the paper onto your work surface.Instead,let the paper do
the work.And lift it off your work surface often to give the paper a
good quick pat with your hand to loosen any little bits that look
like they may be getting toointimate with your paper....you know
what usually happens when there's all that shakin' goin' on and lots-
o-heat...:-)
Sincerely,
Peter,the sanding fool,Lenihan,presently working on his forth set of
finger prints..........
Aluminium-oxide for good old all around heavy sanding through
epoxy,wood,concrete,steel etc especially when used at the end of a
small right-angle grinder(my personal all time favorite boatbuilding
tool,right after the spirit level) and for some really sweet,hard to
gum up paper,Siafast Blueline.Absolutely a dream paper to work with
and it is from your side of the pond ta boot!
Sanding tip:
Never
"force" the paper onto your work surface.Instead,let the paper do
the work.And lift it off your work surface often to give the paper a
good quick pat with your hand to loosen any little bits that look
like they may be getting toointimate with your paper....you know
what usually happens when there's all that shakin' goin' on and lots-
o-heat...:-)
Sincerely,
Peter,the sanding fool,Lenihan,presently working on his forth set of
finger prints..........
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and
other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs
rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand
away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
>
> I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons
of epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away
hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
Hi Bill,
I would echo what the others have said. First, knock down big lumps
with a rasp, microplane, surform, etc. Second, use a scraper to
flatten. Third, lose the amine blush. Fourth, start with 60 grit and a
light touch, then work your way to finer grits. Finally I'd respond to
your initial question. For this type of work, I use one of two brands
- Klingspor or 3M. I buy paper with a zinc stearate coating, which
also helps resist clogging. For example, 3M makes a product called
Fre-Cut. The Resinite Fre-Cut (gold color) is well-suited to our kind
of work. Keep it as dry & flat as possible. Wet-sanding with a
pneumatic Random Orbit sander has much to recommend it. Personally,
though, I can't put up with flinging slurry everywhichway. Have fun!
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the
stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge" - Mark Twain
> Hi,other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs rapidly
>
> Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and
and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away
hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
> Bill****************
Hi Bill,
I would echo what the others have said. First, knock down big lumps
with a rasp, microplane, surform, etc. Second, use a scraper to
flatten. Third, lose the amine blush. Fourth, start with 60 grit and a
light touch, then work your way to finer grits. Finally I'd respond to
your initial question. For this type of work, I use one of two brands
- Klingspor or 3M. I buy paper with a zinc stearate coating, which
also helps resist clogging. For example, 3M makes a product called
Fre-Cut. The Resinite Fre-Cut (gold color) is well-suited to our kind
of work. Keep it as dry & flat as possible. Wet-sanding with a
pneumatic Random Orbit sander has much to recommend it. Personally,
though, I can't put up with flinging slurry everywhichway. Have fun!
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"Education: that which reveals to the wise, and conceals from the
stupid, the vast limits of their knowledge" - Mark Twain
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand
away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
half moon faced rasp to knock off the tape / epoxy ridges when the
epoxy has cured about 24 hours or at least before it is rock hard.
The rasp does clog some but is easily cleaned for reuse. This seems
to save a lot of sand paper as it will take several boats to wear
out the rasp.
David
> Hi,other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs
>
> Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and
rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand
away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
> BillBill I sometimes use a large (1 1/2 X 16 inch), very course, flat /
half moon faced rasp to knock off the tape / epoxy ridges when the
epoxy has cured about 24 hours or at least before it is rock hard.
The rasp does clog some but is easily cleaned for reuse. This seems
to save a lot of sand paper as it will take several boats to wear
out the rasp.
David
Washing off the Amine blush is very important to keeping sand
paper clean. Another important issue is to let the epoxy cure
fully. Sometimes it can take 5 days or more depending on the
temperature. The epoxy can feel cured but the ever so slight
softness turns into clogged sand paper. When my paper clogs I
know I've not washed of the blush well enough or it's not fully
cured.
With patience on the cure and taking off the amine blush it is
possible to sand without clogging unless your using a fine
grit. I usually start with 60 grit and don't press hard and
keep it moving. Pressing to hard and sanding in one place
generates heat that leads to clogged sanding paper.
My experience anyway.
Jeff
paper clean. Another important issue is to let the epoxy cure
fully. Sometimes it can take 5 days or more depending on the
temperature. The epoxy can feel cured but the ever so slight
softness turns into clogged sand paper. When my paper clogs I
know I've not washed of the blush well enough or it's not fully
cured.
With patience on the cure and taking off the amine blush it is
possible to sand without clogging unless your using a fine
grit. I usually start with 60 grit and don't press hard and
keep it moving. Pressing to hard and sanding in one place
generates heat that leads to clogged sanding paper.
My experience anyway.
Jeff
>.
>
> My experience tells me that you must wash off the amine
> blush
> carefully before sanding. This for two reasons: to keep
> sandpaper from clogging and for better adhesion of glue or
> paint. I use aluminum oxide open coat paper. I also use a
> scraper for a first pass on sheet material.
> Bob Chamberland
>
My experience tells me that you must wash off the amine blush
carefully before sanding. This for two reasons: to keep sandpaper
from clogging and for better adhesion of glue or paint. I use aluminum
oxide open coat paper. I also use a scraper for a first pass on sheet
material.
Bob Chamberland
carefully before sanding. This for two reasons: to keep sandpaper
from clogging and for better adhesion of glue or paint. I use aluminum
oxide open coat paper. I also use a scraper for a first pass on sheet
material.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and
other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs rapidly
and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away
hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
>
> I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons
of epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It took over a year of looking, but I finally found wet-or-dry paper for my
PNEUMATIC random orbital sander. Used wet, the clogging is significantly
reduced. Messy, but effective. (My theory is that once the first bit of
epoxy bonds to the paper, it then melts more and more. Water keeps it cool)
I guess the manufacturers think we are idiots and will use it with electric
tools -- probably not more than once. I bought my pneumatic sander
specifically to use this way.
I'd tell you where I got it (Klingspor Woodworking), but it was a
close-out/discontinued item.http://www.woodworkingshop.com/
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
PNEUMATIC random orbital sander. Used wet, the clogging is significantly
reduced. Messy, but effective. (My theory is that once the first bit of
epoxy bonds to the paper, it then melts more and more. Water keeps it cool)
I guess the manufacturers think we are idiots and will use it with electric
tools -- probably not more than once. I bought my pneumatic sander
specifically to use this way.
I'd tell you where I got it (Klingspor Woodworking), but it was a
close-out/discontinued item.http://www.woodworkingshop.com/
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
>
> Bill--This is a universal problem. I've had some luck at knocking down
> the big spots (like the ridges on the edge of fg tape and the inevitable
> runs) with a Sandvik carbide blade scraper. I also start with 60 grit on a
> random orbital sander and work my way to finer paper as the higher spots
> work down. But clogging sandpaper seems to be inevitable. Sandpaper is,
> however, relatively cheap. Buy it in quantity and change it frequently.
>
> Sanding is my least favorite part of boatbuilding. The best thing you can
> say about it is that sooner or later, it's over.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Will Samson
> Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and other
> coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs rapidly and needs
> to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away hundreds of dollars
> worth of epoxy.
>
> I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons of
> epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
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>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bill--This is a universal problem. I've had some luck at knocking down the big spots (like the ridges on the edge of fg tape and the inevitable runs) with a Sandvik carbide blade scraper. I also start with 60 grit on a random orbital sander and work my way to finer paper as the higher spots work down. But clogging sandpaper seems to be inevitable. Sandpaper is, however, relatively cheap. Buy it in quantity and change it frequently.
Sanding is my least favorite part of boatbuilding. The best thing you can say about it is that sooner or later, it's over.
John T
Sanding is my least favorite part of boatbuilding. The best thing you can say about it is that sooner or later, it's over.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Will Samson
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:01 AM
Subject: [bolger] Sandpaper?
Hi,
Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons of epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi,
Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons of epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Any views on the best abrasive paper to use for sanding epoxy and other coatings? I seem to spend a fortune on stuff that clogs rapidly and needs to be replaced every minute or two while I sand away hundreds of dollars worth of epoxy.
I guess you can tell the best finished boats by the number of tons of epoxy dust that are discarded at the end of the finishing process!
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]