Re: Shallow draft designs plus a crazy notion....
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dvd_godsey" <dvd_godsey@y...> wrote:
notched on the trailing edge to allow the boards to setat varying
depths. the rudder has been highly modified. It draws 10"and has a
large endplate. it holds the stern down when sailing and doesnt stall
like the old "traditional "one did in lightairs.
. recently we were sailin on an inletand on suddenly seeing a wave
break on a rock in the middle of the inletI put in an oar to discover
that we had been sailing in just oner 20 " of water.
The key to upwind ability in a small sailing boat is to have a hard
chinehull and heel the hull. This of course makes you realize that
many "modern "hulldesigns are really a backward stepdesigned to
accomodate rapid,cost effective production methods and materials.
cheers paul Day, Kalgoorlie , Western Australia
>probably
> This is my first post as a new member, apologies for a mish-mash of
> content.
>
> Here on the N. Oregon coast, we are blessed with many bays and
> tidally influenced rivers, including the lower Columbia, but cursed
> with extensive tidal mud flats
> that emerge at about a 5.1 tide. My interest is in shallow draft
> boats > One notion (one of my 2AM brilliant thoughts that is
> unworkable) for a shallower centerboard arrangement is parallelof
> boards three or four feet apart at the same center-of-resistance
> point as normal. One assumes that a 2'w x 3'h
> centerboard could be replaced with two, 2' wide by only 1.5' high
> saving 1.5 foot of draft. That would buy about an additional hour
> sailing open water IF it worked.Dave I sail/row/motor a folding schooner. 2 daggerboardsthat are
>
> >
> Thoughts? Dave Godsey, Nehalem,
notched on the trailing edge to allow the boards to setat varying
depths. the rudder has been highly modified. It draws 10"and has a
large endplate. it holds the stern down when sailing and doesnt stall
like the old "traditional "one did in lightairs.
. recently we were sailin on an inletand on suddenly seeing a wave
break on a rock in the middle of the inletI put in an oar to discover
that we had been sailing in just oner 20 " of water.
The key to upwind ability in a small sailing boat is to have a hard
chinehull and heel the hull. This of course makes you realize that
many "modern "hulldesigns are really a backward stepdesigned to
accomodate rapid,cost effective production methods and materials.
cheers paul Day, Kalgoorlie , Western Australia
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
all the recent updates and positive write-ups, I would certainly
think Birdwatcherll would be an ideal candidate.
Three sheets of plywood ripped lengthways and joined with Lenihan lap-
joints, and you have your hull half finished:-)
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
>I believe Bolger designed Camper with that area in mind. But after
> There are many boats that you might consider, from Bolger and from
> others.
>
all the recent updates and positive write-ups, I would certainly
think Birdwatcherll would be an ideal candidate.
Three sheets of plywood ripped lengthways and joined with Lenihan lap-
joints, and you have your hull half finished:-)
Cheers, Nels
Nehalum Bay has all those Ouster farms as I recall so what you need
is a quiet boat and night vision goggels LOL Welcome from Vancouver
Wa.
Jon
is a quiet boat and night vision goggels LOL Welcome from Vancouver
Wa.
Jon
Peter, thanks, see below...
HONE MY SKILLS.
THE ONLINE PLANS AT INSTANT BOAT DON'T MENTION THE DRAFT FOR THE
CAT.....DOES ANYONE HAVE A NOTION?
ALSO, HOW DOES THAT LONG KEEL AFFECT TURNING? SEEMS IT WOULD TAKE A
HARD PUSH TO GET IT TO COME ABOUT.
WE HAVE ROUGH WATER ON THE LOWER REACHES WHERE THE SURF ROLLS UP THE
ESTUARY BUT I PERFER TO STAY AWAY LEST ONE GETS SUCKED OR PUSHED OUT
ONTO THE BAR - VERY UNHEALTY ON A PACIFIC OCEAN EBB TIDE.
> A boat meant to SAIL in very shallow water may have a long, shoalLOOKING HARD AT THE CATFISH BUT MIGHT BUILD A MINI CAT FIRST JUST TO
> keel. Bolger has done several like that, e.g. OldShoe, and the
> Catfish Beachcruiser. Oh, and Micro. (How could I forget?) These
> boats will not be as fast upwind, but they do sail in shallow water.
HONE MY SKILLS.
THE ONLINE PLANS AT INSTANT BOAT DON'T MENTION THE DRAFT FOR THE
CAT.....DOES ANYONE HAVE A NOTION?
ALSO, HOW DOES THAT LONG KEEL AFFECT TURNING? SEEMS IT WOULD TAKE A
HARD PUSH TO GET IT TO COME ABOUT.
> I think the hard chine boat similar to the New Haven is Bolger'sand is a rough water boat, not a shallow water boat.
> plywood rendition of the Herreshoff 12 1/2. It has deepish keel,
WE HAVE ROUGH WATER ON THE LOWER REACHES WHERE THE SURF ROLLS UP THE
ESTUARY BUT I PERFER TO STAY AWAY LEST ONE GETS SUCKED OR PUSHED OUT
ONTO THE BAR - VERY UNHEALTY ON A PACIFIC OCEAN EBB TIDE.
>
> The Dutch used leeboards a lot because they had shoal water. They
> also built their boats heavily of oak. Leeboards are mostly like
> centerboards in use, but since they are not braced, they may not
> damage so easily in a grounding. Or, not damage the boat.
>
> At the size you are looking at, the best way to accomodate single
> handing is to use a cat rig. Since the boats are ballasted by crew
> weight, you want one with a rig of modest size.
>
> Peter
There are many boats that you might consider, from Bolger and from
others.
Most centerboard boats are designed to float in very little water,
say 6 inches or less for a boat up to 15 feet. That's plenty big
enough for three people. However, they are not meant to sail in such
shallow water. Draft with centerboard down might be 3 feet, even
more. The boat will sail with board partially down, but it will lose
performance upwind, and may be cranky to steer on other points.
Centerboards do have the feature of popping up if you hit the bottom.
Daggerboards are really meant for trailer boats. They are less
forgiving about running aground, and about sailing with the board
partially exposed.
A boat meant to SAIL in very shallow water may have a long, shoal
keel. Bolger has done several like that, e.g. OldShoe, and the
Catfish Beachcruiser. Oh, and Micro. (How could I forget?) These
boats will not be as fast upwind, but they do sail in shallow water.
An alternate to a long keel could be two keels. Designing boats for
two (or more) keels is tricky, and there is a price in performance. I
think the real problem is that they will not both have exactly the
same angle of attack to the water, so one will be working harder than
the other, which means the other one is more drag than necessary.
Bolger's Triple Keel Sloop is an example.
I think the hard chine boat similar to the New Haven is Bolger's
plywood rendition of the Herreshoff 12 1/2. It has deepish keel, and
is a rough water boat, not a shallow water boat.
The Dutch used leeboards a lot because they had shoal water. They
also built their boats heavily of oak. Leeboards are mostly like
centerboards in use, but since they are not braced, they may not
damage so easily in a grounding. Or, not damage the boat.
At the size you are looking at, the best way to accomodate single
handing is to use a cat rig. Since the boats are ballasted by crew
weight, you want one with a rig of modest size.
Peter
others.
Most centerboard boats are designed to float in very little water,
say 6 inches or less for a boat up to 15 feet. That's plenty big
enough for three people. However, they are not meant to sail in such
shallow water. Draft with centerboard down might be 3 feet, even
more. The boat will sail with board partially down, but it will lose
performance upwind, and may be cranky to steer on other points.
Centerboards do have the feature of popping up if you hit the bottom.
Daggerboards are really meant for trailer boats. They are less
forgiving about running aground, and about sailing with the board
partially exposed.
A boat meant to SAIL in very shallow water may have a long, shoal
keel. Bolger has done several like that, e.g. OldShoe, and the
Catfish Beachcruiser. Oh, and Micro. (How could I forget?) These
boats will not be as fast upwind, but they do sail in shallow water.
An alternate to a long keel could be two keels. Designing boats for
two (or more) keels is tricky, and there is a price in performance. I
think the real problem is that they will not both have exactly the
same angle of attack to the water, so one will be working harder than
the other, which means the other one is more drag than necessary.
Bolger's Triple Keel Sloop is an example.
I think the hard chine boat similar to the New Haven is Bolger's
plywood rendition of the Herreshoff 12 1/2. It has deepish keel, and
is a rough water boat, not a shallow water boat.
The Dutch used leeboards a lot because they had shoal water. They
also built their boats heavily of oak. Leeboards are mostly like
centerboards in use, but since they are not braced, they may not
damage so easily in a grounding. Or, not damage the boat.
At the size you are looking at, the best way to accomodate single
handing is to use a cat rig. Since the boats are ballasted by crew
weight, you want one with a rig of modest size.
Peter
Dave D:
Thanks for the info. Checked at Duckworks and noted one plan at:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/designs/atkin/bluestone/index.htm
which utilizes twin boards that are not outboard of the hull.
Didn't see any advantage since the drawings show draft equal to a
regular centerboard. Your point about length affecting ability to
tack effecively was something I had conveniently forgotten.....built
an attachable outrigger set to make a kayak rig years ago. It sailed
like a bandit until you tried to go into the wind and it actually
went downwind instead. Had to be towed back in on the maiden
cruise....very embarassing.
Once a copy of "30 odd boats" comes in, a hard look at the Beach Cat
is in order.
Thanks for the info. Checked at Duckworks and noted one plan at:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/designs/atkin/bluestone/index.htm
which utilizes twin boards that are not outboard of the hull.
Didn't see any advantage since the drawings show draft equal to a
regular centerboard. Your point about length affecting ability to
tack effecively was something I had conveniently forgotten.....built
an attachable outrigger set to make a kayak rig years ago. It sailed
like a bandit until you tried to go into the wind and it actually
went downwind instead. Had to be towed back in on the maiden
cruise....very embarassing.
Once a copy of "30 odd boats" comes in, a hard look at the Beach Cat
is in order.
> Bolger must think twin boards increase lateral resistence becausehe
> used that concept on the AS 29, and he has designed a lot of twinHAVE NOT SEEN THE PLAN BUT WILL KEEP A WEATHER EYE OUT FOR IT.
> leeboard boats.
>caused
> Some also use twin shortened leeboards in order to be able to
> acctually sail in shallow water.
>
> One longer board is more effecient because it has a higher aspect
> ratio and it reaches deeper water that has less surface drift
> by the wind. The single board may have less wetting surface / dragdesign.
> than two boards.
>
> The shallow draft boat you talk of might need a "low center of
> effort" sail rig like a lug or gaff rig. They seldom point closer
> than 50 degrees of the wind.
>
> To get a high pointing, shallow draft boat for three just about
> requires a sharpie with a sloop rig of 19 to 21 feet, will be hard
> to do with a 12 1/2 or 15 footer. All is a compromise and high
> pointing and ultra shallow draft might be hard to find in one
>
> Try the design catalog at Duckworks.com
>
>
>
> David Davis
Dave D:
Thanks for the info. Checked at Duckworks and noted one plan at:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/designs/atkin/bluestone/index.htm
which utilizes twin boards that are not outboard of the hull.
Didn't see any advantage since the drawings show draft equal to a
regular centerboard. Your point about length affecting ability to
tack effecively was something I had conveniently forgotten.....built
an attachable outrigger set to make a kayak rig years ago. It sailed
like a bandit until you tried to go into the wind and it actually
went downwind instead. Had to be towed back in on the maiden
cruise....very embarassing.
Once a copy of "30 odd boats" comes in, a hard look at the Beach Cat
is in order.
Thanks for the info. Checked at Duckworks and noted one plan at:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/designs/atkin/bluestone/index.htm
which utilizes twin boards that are not outboard of the hull.
Didn't see any advantage since the drawings show draft equal to a
regular centerboard. Your point about length affecting ability to
tack effecively was something I had conveniently forgotten.....built
an attachable outrigger set to make a kayak rig years ago. It sailed
like a bandit until you tried to go into the wind and it actually
went downwind instead. Had to be towed back in on the maiden
cruise....very embarassing.
Once a copy of "30 odd boats" comes in, a hard look at the Beach Cat
is in order.
> Bolger must think twin boards increase lateral resistence becausehe
> used that concept on the AS 29, and he has designed a lot of twinHAVE NOT SEEN THE PLAN BUT WILL KEEP A WEATHER EYE OUT FOR IT.
> leeboard boats.
>caused
> Some also use twin shortened leeboards in order to be able to
> acctually sail in shallow water.
>
> One longer board is more effecient because it has a higher aspect
> ratio and it reaches deeper water that has less surface drift
> by the wind. The single board may have less wetting surface / dragdesign.
> than two boards.
>
> The shallow draft boat you talk of might need a "low center of
> effort" sail rig like a lug or gaff rig. They seldom point closer
> than 50 degrees of the wind.
>
> To get a high pointing, shallow draft boat for three just about
> requires a sharpie with a sloop rig of 19 to 21 feet, will be hard
> to do with a 12 1/2 or 15 footer. All is a compromise and high
> pointing and ultra shallow draft might be hard to find in one
>
> Try the design catalog at Duckworks.com
>
>
>
> David Davis
Welcome to the group. I have to recommend the Chebacco if you're looking at a Haven 12 1/2. 18" draft, easy to sail an great looking as well. Maybe just a tad bigger than needed for a load of 3, but why be cramped?
----- Original Message -----
From: dvd_godsey
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 1:10 PM
Subject: [bolger] Shallow draft designs plus a crazy notion....
This is my first post as a new member, apologies for a mish-mash of
content.
Here on the N. Oregon coast, we are blessed with many bays and
tidally influenced rivers, including the lower Columbia, but cursed
with extensive tidal mud flats
that emerge at about a 5.1 tide. My interest is in shallow draft
boats suitable for one-handed sailing and capacity for three
persons. Being able to sail well at all possible points is critical
since the channels meander (especially at low tide) and reach length
is limited, except for Tillamook Bay.
I have been considering the beach or mini cats and keep scouting for
designs with minimal draft, that can be trailered. The
Haven/Herreshoff 12-1/2 is the most attractive vessel I have found
with the cat family not far behind. Several Payson and Bolger books
are on their way from the library and getting recommendations from
experienced builders would be a plus.
John Kohnen tells me that Bolger may have played with a chined ply
version of the Haven but didn't recall seeing a design.
One notion (one of my 2AM brilliant thoughts that is probably
unworkable) for a shallower centerboard arrangement is parallel
boards three or four feet apart at the same center-of-resistance
point as normal. One assumes that a 2'w x 3'h
centerboard could be replaced with two, 2' wide by only 1.5' high
saving 1.5 foot of draft. That would buy about an additional hour of
sailing open water IF it worked.
The problem is, I don't grasp the pro or con physics of dual boards
(whether one affects the performance of the other, does forward
movement mitigate influence, etc) and two boxes being more work
but it still intrigues. One would think that if it were feasible, we
would have been using it for the past 100 years. Maybe I need to be
committed to the happy
house.
Thoughts? Dave Godsey, Nehalem, OR
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Being able to sail well at all possible points is criticalIt seems to me that what might suit you best is a boat that
> since the channels meander (especially at low tide) and reach length
> is limited,
has shallow draft, that sails well (one handed) *and* that
can be motored quickly against the current or adverse wind,
(or to zip over to that better sailing bay), etc..
The Bolger boat that meets that criteria best, I think, is the
Fast Motor Sailer. There is a chapter about one in their
book _Boats With An Opend Mind_, plus in recent
years they have issued significant upgrades to it.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dvd_godsey" <dvd_godsey@y...> wrote:
used that concept on the AS 29, and he has designed a lot of twin
leeboard boats.
Some also use twin shortened leeboards in order to be able to
acctually sail in shallow water.
One longer board is more effecient because it has a higher aspect
ratio and it reaches deeper water that has less surface drift caused
by the wind. The single board may have less wetting surface / drag
than two boards.
The shallow draft boat you talk of might need a "low center of
effort" sail rig like a lug or gaff rig. They seldom point closer
than 50 degrees of the wind.
To get a high pointing, shallow draft boat for three just about
requires a sharpie with a sloop rig of 19 to 21 feet, will be hard
to do with a 12 1/2 or 15 footer. All is a compromise and high
pointing and ultra shallow draft might be hard to find in one design.
Try the design catalog at Duckworks.com
David Davis
>boards
> The problem is, I don't grasp the pro or con physics of dual
> (whether one affects the performance of the other, does forwardwe
> movement mitigate influence, etc) and two boxes being more work
> but it still intrigues. One would think that if it were feasible,
> would have been using it for the past 100 years. Maybe I need tobe
> committed to the happyBolger must think twin boards increase lateral resistence because he
> house.
>
> Thoughts? Dave Godsey, Nehalem, OR
used that concept on the AS 29, and he has designed a lot of twin
leeboard boats.
Some also use twin shortened leeboards in order to be able to
acctually sail in shallow water.
One longer board is more effecient because it has a higher aspect
ratio and it reaches deeper water that has less surface drift caused
by the wind. The single board may have less wetting surface / drag
than two boards.
The shallow draft boat you talk of might need a "low center of
effort" sail rig like a lug or gaff rig. They seldom point closer
than 50 degrees of the wind.
To get a high pointing, shallow draft boat for three just about
requires a sharpie with a sloop rig of 19 to 21 feet, will be hard
to do with a 12 1/2 or 15 footer. All is a compromise and high
pointing and ultra shallow draft might be hard to find in one design.
Try the design catalog at Duckworks.com
David Davis
This is my first post as a new member, apologies for a mish-mash of
content.
Here on the N. Oregon coast, we are blessed with many bays and
tidally influenced rivers, including the lower Columbia, but cursed
with extensive tidal mud flats
that emerge at about a 5.1 tide. My interest is in shallow draft
boats suitable for one-handed sailing and capacity for three
persons. Being able to sail well at all possible points is critical
since the channels meander (especially at low tide) and reach length
is limited, except for Tillamook Bay.
I have been considering the beach or mini cats and keep scouting for
designs with minimal draft, that can be trailered. The
Haven/Herreshoff 12-1/2 is the most attractive vessel I have found
with the cat family not far behind. Several Payson and Bolger books
are on their way from the library and getting recommendations from
experienced builders would be a plus.
John Kohnen tells me that Bolger may have played with a chined ply
version of the Haven but didn't recall seeing a design.
One notion (one of my 2AM brilliant thoughts that is probably
unworkable) for a shallower centerboard arrangement is parallel
boards three or four feet apart at the same center-of-resistance
point as normal. One assumes that a 2'w x 3'h
centerboard could be replaced with two, 2' wide by only 1.5' high
saving 1.5 foot of draft. That would buy about an additional hour of
sailing open water IF it worked.
The problem is, I don't grasp the pro or con physics of dual boards
(whether one affects the performance of the other, does forward
movement mitigate influence, etc) and two boxes being more work
but it still intrigues. One would think that if it were feasible, we
would have been using it for the past 100 years. Maybe I need to be
committed to the happy
house.
Thoughts? Dave Godsey, Nehalem, OR
content.
Here on the N. Oregon coast, we are blessed with many bays and
tidally influenced rivers, including the lower Columbia, but cursed
with extensive tidal mud flats
that emerge at about a 5.1 tide. My interest is in shallow draft
boats suitable for one-handed sailing and capacity for three
persons. Being able to sail well at all possible points is critical
since the channels meander (especially at low tide) and reach length
is limited, except for Tillamook Bay.
I have been considering the beach or mini cats and keep scouting for
designs with minimal draft, that can be trailered. The
Haven/Herreshoff 12-1/2 is the most attractive vessel I have found
with the cat family not far behind. Several Payson and Bolger books
are on their way from the library and getting recommendations from
experienced builders would be a plus.
John Kohnen tells me that Bolger may have played with a chined ply
version of the Haven but didn't recall seeing a design.
One notion (one of my 2AM brilliant thoughts that is probably
unworkable) for a shallower centerboard arrangement is parallel
boards three or four feet apart at the same center-of-resistance
point as normal. One assumes that a 2'w x 3'h
centerboard could be replaced with two, 2' wide by only 1.5' high
saving 1.5 foot of draft. That would buy about an additional hour of
sailing open water IF it worked.
The problem is, I don't grasp the pro or con physics of dual boards
(whether one affects the performance of the other, does forward
movement mitigate influence, etc) and two boxes being more work
but it still intrigues. One would think that if it were feasible, we
would have been using it for the past 100 years. Maybe I need to be
committed to the happy
house.
Thoughts? Dave Godsey, Nehalem, OR