Re: Camper 640
design. YES Bolger seemed quite proud of the design as an optimized for
camping Birdwatcher.
--
Don Schultz
- a smaller lighter rig,
or whatever.
I never heard back. And this was at a time when I had other issues on the plate to not be more persistent.
Even now, I owe a batch of e-mails an mail to those who know that I do...
But whether in –35F wind-chill yesterday or in balmy times, I’ve not spent time ‘on the beach’.
I expect for things to clear up as that darn list of must-dos gets to a manageable level Phil ran for decades – and did so productively.
In the meantime, the monthly column in Messing About In Boats should offer some stimulation...and serves as signs of creative life from 66 Atlantic Street, Gloucester, MA 01930-01627, USA.
Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 15, 2016, at 3:27 PM, 'Hilbert'h.gorte@...[bolger] <bolger@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Good day.I would like to react on what John T had to say about camper 640.for 1 having high sides like Birdwatcher you would need stiffness on the topside, and the corners would have to be braced. now what Mr Bolger did is genius , for the stem and transome already are to be stiff he just pulled them up high so that it would brace the cabin. the railing is only handy if you have to be on dek if you are out on the water. a sudden wave can knock you in the water on the least exspected moment. and you never know when you have to be on dek. I apreciat the coamings for I know you never know what can happen on the water.2 . for a boat 21 feet length and 5 feet wide and no balast would always be tender, it would be more tender if you gave it a round bottom. and this tendernes means the boat would take off like a formula 1 and has to be treated like that, carefull. now its a camper, whitch means you would take camping gear , food and cooking stuff. that would load the boat down and take off some tendernes.3 if a boat is tender can also mean to much sail for the given wind.but if someone built camper and sold it because he expected something the boat is not , then it was a wrong choice for that person . but there is nothing wrong with the boat as designed.just wanted to show another view on the subject. Greetings Hilbert Gorte .
skiff plan for a 14' row boat called Blackberry 14. I call it a rower
because there is nothing about a sail plan nor a motor mount. A builder
would need to detail out the build on their own.
To bad. I remember Mister Moon as a very nicely done Michalak AF-4. It
appeared to be precisely per plans. There were several nice pics of the
builder's family enjoying the boat.
Anyway, no Camper 640. I remember reading the MAB write up re the
design. YES Bolger seemed quite proud of the design as an optimized for
camping Birdwatcher.
--
Don Schultz
--
Don Schultz
Camper was written up in Messing About in Boats, Feb, 1997 and in an early Boat Design Quarterly. There is a string drawing and several pictures on the web if you dig around. Camper was never included in any of PCB’s books.
JohnT.
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent:Saturday, February 13, 2016
11:54 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:RE: [bolger] Camper 640
Nels, where would one find a rendition of this boat. I have most of PCB's books but the Camper 640 is not shown.
Dennis
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 11:33:28 -0800
Subject: [bolger] Camper 640
I came across these plans I had thought I had lost years ago in a move.Upon
reviewing them again I was amazed at the details and the descriptions Mr.
Bolger wrote up about the design and how nice the plans details are.as well.
Six blueprints 18 page write-up.
Simple sharpie hull 18' X 5' 3" with considerable flare, but a lot
of added goodies. Birdwatcher top narrowing to almost point forward. Railings
bow and stern. 150 sq. ft. gaff rig on a 14' mast in a tabernacle. Small
centerboard forward for more sleeping space and a very large rudder like
Cartopper. Two rowing stations with enclosed ports. Heavy bottom with a 16'
wide X 1" deep shoe down the centerline, so self righting in a knockdown.
6" draft on a short waterline with board up and 24" lowered. Inboard
steering station. Re-boarding step on the stern. And the list goes on.
BUT no motor allowed. - even though enough space in the starboard stern quarter
for a small 2 hp kicker above the boarding step. Something an old person might
like :-)
I think he really liked this design but have never seen one. Wonder why?
Nels
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 11:33:28 -0800
Subject: [bolger] Camper 640
I came across these plans I had thought I had lost years ago in a move.Upon reviewing them again I was amazed at the details and the descriptions Mr. Bolger wrote up about the design and how nice the plans details are.as well. Six blueprints 18 page write-up.
Simple sharpie hull 18' X 5' 3" with considerable flare, but a lot of added goodies. Birdwatcher top narrowing to almost point forward. Railings bow and stern. 150 sq. ft. gaff rig on a 14' mast in a tabernacle. Small centerboard forward for more sleeping space and a very large rudder like Cartopper. Two rowing stations with enclosed ports. Heavy bottom with a 16' wide X 1" deep shoe down the centerline, so self righting in a knockdown. 6" draft on a short waterline with board up and 24" lowered. Inboard steering station. Re-boarding step on the stern. And the list goes on.
BUT no motor allowed. - even though enough space in the starboard stern quarter for a small 2 hp kicker above the boarding step. Something an old person might like :-)
I think he really liked this design but have never seen one. Wonder why?
Nels
I bought the plans for Camper when it first came out and gave it considerable thought. (Studying plans is a lot cheaper than actually building!) If I were to build one, I would not build the railings at all. IMHO, the railings don’t keep anything in (since the boat is sailed from inside the cabin), complicate the construction, and add a great deal of plywood, increasing cost and weight, and complicating getting on and off the boat. PCB suggested that the railings provided convenient tie down points for things you don’t want to keep inside the boat. I also thought about moving the center board off to one side , lining it up with the edge of the slot top. Finally, I thought about replacing the gaff with a balanced lug for its self vanging characteristics, moving the mast back and stepping it off center, stepping it as part of the off center board case. Since I’m not as smart as PCB, it is perhaps just as well that development of hip problems kept me from building a Camper with my modifications.
I saw pictures of one which seemed to be nicely built, but as far as I know, it was only used with an outboard motor and shortly went up for sale. Somewhere, I read that a sail version had been built, but that it was unacceptably tender. Tenderness is in the eye of the beholder, and I have no idea if Camper is excessively tender or if an inexperienced sailor expected more stiffness than Camper provided.
Camper is about as simple to build as a boat can get (if you leave off the railings). However, building a hull is only a small part of the time and cost of the boat, and eve a simple Boat of Camper’s size is a major project. You might want to check with Suzanne for any builder feedback before tackling the project.
JohnT
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
bolger@yahoogroups.com ]
Sent:Saturday, February 13, 2016
2:33 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject:[bolger] Camper 640
I came across these plans I had thought I had lost years ago in a move.Upon reviewing them again I was amazed at the details and the descriptions Mr. Bolger wrote up about the design and how nice the plans details are.as well. Six blueprints 18 page write-up.
Simple sharpie hull 18' X 5' 3" with considerable flare, but a lot of added goodies. Birdwatcher top narrowing to almost point forward. Railings bow and stern. 150 sq. ft. gaff rig on a 14' mast in a tabernacle. Small centerboard forward for more sleeping space and a very large rudder like Cartopper. Two rowing stations with enclosed ports. Heavy bottom with a 16' wide X 1" deep shoe down the centerline, so self righting in a knockdown. 6" draft on a short waterline with board up and 24" lowered. Inboard steering station. Re-boarding step on the stern. And the list goes on.
BUT no motor allowed. - even though enough space in the starboard stern quarter for a small 2 hp kicker above the boarding step. Something an old person might like :-)
I think he really liked this design but have never seen one. Wonder why?
Nels
I came across these plans I had thought I had lost years ago in a move.Upon reviewing them again I was amazed at the details and the descriptions Mr. Bolger wrote up about the design and how nice the plans details are.as well. Six blueprints 18 page write-up.
Simple sharpie hull 18' X 5' 3" with considerable flare, but a lot of added goodies. Birdwatcher top narrowing to almost point forward. Railings bow and stern. 150 sq. ft. gaff rig on a 14' mast in a tabernacle. Small centerboard forward for more sleeping space and a very large rudder like Cartopper. Two rowing stations with enclosed ports. Heavy bottom with a 16' wide X 1" deep shoe down the centerline, so self righting in a knockdown. 6" draft on a short waterline with board up and 24" lowered. Inboard steering station. Re-boarding step on the stern. And the list goes on.
BUT no motor allowed. - even though enough space in the starboard stern quarter for a small 2 hp kicker above the boarding step. Something an old person might like :-)
I think he really liked this design but have never seen one. Wonder why?
Nels
>According to my notes, four MAIB write-ups of Camper 640,
>
>
> Does anybody know which issue of MAIB the Camper 640 appeared in? Thanks.
>
Dec 1, 1993 V11-N14,
Feb 1, 1997 V14-N18,
Apr 15, 2006 V23-N12 and
Jun 1, 2007 V24-N22
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob" <bob-norris@...> wrote:
>
> Does anybody know which issue of MAIB the Camper 640 appeared in? Thanks.
>
wrote:
>You might want to try to contact Aeneas Precht, who sailed his
> Nels,
>
> My overall impression is that it is not much smaller than
> Birdwatcher, so, apart from the sailplan which is well sorted why
> not go with Birdwatcher? I think Birdwatcher does look more
> attractive, and if necessary I suppose additional oarports could be
> fitted. These boats are well suited to temperate latitudes but I
> have my doubts about suitability for latitudes where heat is more of
> a dominant physical presence than just a sensation.
Birdwatcher off Florida as well as in northern Canada and seems to
love the design.
One of the modifications he made was to extend the aft deck so he
could sit with his torso above the open slot. I guess then the crew
would have to sit forward, or topside - not sure. (See photos)
http://www.geocities.com/kayaker37/Aeneas_Birdwatcher.html
PCB&F wrote that during sailing of the prototype WDJ Schooner on Lake
Mead it was over 100 F and was cooler under cover than in the open
cockpit.
Matt Layden won the Florida Everglades Challenge a few years back in
his completely enclosed Paradox, although you can slide the hatch open
and sit with your head outside. Sort of like driving your car with
your head sticking out the sunroof:-)
A drawback of BW and Camper is that only one person can sit in the
stern, out in the breeze. But this might be intentional so as to
prevent too much weight accumulating in the stern. I have heard it
confirmed several times that the open slot sure does get a good amount
of air coming through from forward as well as down off the sail.
The biggest advantage for sure is for temperate-climate sailers, as
well as trailer sailers as the boat extends the sailing weather and is
easy to zip up and launch. Camper would get the nod as a TS with the
tabernacle and shorter length. (Psst... it can also take on a motor
with no modifications;-)
Aeneas' write-up is interesting as well, in that they seemed often to
sail it with crew sitting on the top, as is shown in the title page of
the Mason Smith WB article. Perhaps it leads to more options than just
sitting in a cockpit, as it is so convenient to get up and move around
in.
Which might get aggravating for the captain at times:-)
Nels
last Midwest Messabout. The temp was I think around high 80's. I
found the boat to be much cooler than I thought. The tinted windows
really make a difference along with the shade of the cabin top. I
think under way while sailing would be quite comfortable. This is
also based on my experience of being in the cabin of my AF3 while
sailing. It is true that there is a nice down draft from the sail in
the cabin. I too have noticed that in pictures people are standing
outside. I think this is more from peoples desire to be outside
sailing with the wind on there face than to keep cool. I was
convinced enough that it would be comfortable to start building a
Michalak derivation of the Birdwatcher called Philsboat. I am about
half complete and will have more experience with the type next summer.
Chris Feller
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>two boats is that Camper is designed to use longer oars and to be
> Graeme,
>
> I've studied both plans and I think the major difference between the
rowed while completely under cover. PCB frequently designs boats for
very specific uses (in the case of Camper, cruising in the Puget Sound
area) and this narrow focus may make the boats less attractive for
wider use. The shorter oars specified for Birdwatcher are probably
most useful for moving the boat when the wind dies and there is little
current to buck. Pulling two pairs of longer oars, I would think
Camper could make progress against some current and that Camper is
more a combnation rowing/sailing cruiser than a sailing cruiser with
auxiliary rowing capabilities.
>experience in the SE and I note that many of the pictures I see of
> I agree with your thoughts on Birdwatcher cabins in the heat we
boats with BW cabins show the captain sitting outside the cabin....
PCB maintains that air coming off the sail stirs things up in the
cabin, so it isn't as bad as I might think. I would be interested in
hearing from someone with actual experience in this regard.
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: graeme19121984
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:09 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Camper 640
>
>
> Nels,
>
> thanks for posting this. Now I get it, thanks to the write-up. That
> isn't a sectioned drawing, those are railings that stick out fore
> and aft.
>
> The way the mast is set up is most versatile, isn't it? It could be
> kept quite dry inside while still under way.
>
> My overall impression is that it is not much smaller than
> Birdwatcher, so, apart from the sailplan which is well sorted why
> not go with Birdwatcher? I think Birdwatcher does look more
> attractive, and if necessary I suppose additional oarports could be
> fitted. These boats are well suited to temperate latitudes but I
> have my doubts about suitability for latitudes where heat is more of
> a dominant physical presence than just a sensation. Sealable window
> openings like on Supermouse, or on this Topaz
>http://journeyboats.com/photo_journal.htmmight make them
> comfortable for summer. They are a good winter boat I would think,
> but perhaps not for all year round as is.
>
> It's a shame the other material you had was lost to the vagaries of
> electronic fate. It would be nice to see a completed one; and read
> reports of her use. Remember Tim, the 11 year old who built a Storm
> Petrel a few years ago? PCB recommended he build a Camper. A year or
> so ago and SP still keel-less might suggest PCB, construction
> technique not counted, was near the mark.
>
> cheers
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@> wrote:
> >
> > I posted the complete Camper article that I quoted from earlier
> along
> > with 3 photos of a partially built hull.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>10/27/2006
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I've studied both plans and I think the major difference between the two boats is that Camper is designed to use longer oars and to be rowed while completely under cover. PCB frequently designs boats for very specific uses (in the case of Camper, cruising in the Puget Sound area) and this narrow focus may make the boats less attractive for wider use. The shorter oars specified for Birdwatcher are probably most useful for moving the boat when the wind dies and there is little current to buck. Pulling two pairs of longer oars, I would think Camper could make progress against some current and that Camper is more a combnation rowing/sailing cruiser than a sailing cruiser with auxiliary rowing capabilities.
I agree with your thoughts on Birdwatcher cabins in the heat we experience in the SE and I note that many of the pictures I see of boats with BW cabins show the captain sitting outside the cabin.... PCB maintains that air coming off the sail stirs things up in the cabin, so it isn't as bad as I might think. I would be interested in hearing from someone with actual experience in this regard.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:09 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Camper 640
Nels,
thanks for posting this. Now I get it, thanks to the write-up. That
isn't a sectioned drawing, those are railings that stick out fore
and aft.
The way the mast is set up is most versatile, isn't it? It could be
kept quite dry inside while still under way.
My overall impression is that it is not much smaller than
Birdwatcher, so, apart from the sailplan which is well sorted why
not go with Birdwatcher? I think Birdwatcher does look more
attractive, and if necessary I suppose additional oarports could be
fitted. These boats are well suited to temperate latitudes but I
have my doubts about suitability for latitudes where heat is more of
a dominant physical presence than just a sensation. Sealable window
openings like on Supermouse, or on this Topaz
http://journeyboats.com/photo_journal.htmmight make them
comfortable for summer. They are a good winter boat I would think,
but perhaps not for all year round as is.
It's a shame the other material you had was lost to the vagaries of
electronic fate. It would be nice to see a completed one; and read
reports of her use. Remember Tim, the 11 year old who built a Storm
Petrel a few years ago? PCB recommended he build a Camper. A year or
so ago and SP still keel-less might suggest PCB, construction
technique not counted, was near the mark.
cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> I posted the complete Camper article that I quoted from earlier
along
> with 3 photos of a partially built hull.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/2006
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thanks for posting this. Now I get it, thanks to the write-up. That
isn't a sectioned drawing, those are railings that stick out fore
and aft.
The way the mast is set up is most versatile, isn't it? It could be
kept quite dry inside while still under way.
My overall impression is that it is not much smaller than
Birdwatcher, so, apart from the sailplan which is well sorted why
not go with Birdwatcher? I think Birdwatcher does look more
attractive, and if necessary I suppose additional oarports could be
fitted. These boats are well suited to temperate latitudes but I
have my doubts about suitability for latitudes where heat is more of
a dominant physical presence than just a sensation. Sealable window
openings like on Supermouse, or on this Topaz
http://journeyboats.com/photo_journal.htmmight make them
comfortable for summer. They are a good winter boat I would think,
but perhaps not for all year round as is.
It's a shame the other material you had was lost to the vagaries of
electronic fate. It would be nice to see a completed one; and read
reports of her use. Remember Tim, the 11 year old who built a Storm
Petrel a few years ago? PCB recommended he build a Camper. A year or
so ago and SP still keel-less might suggest PCB, construction
technique not counted, was near the mark.
cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> I posted the complete Camper article that I quoted from earlier
along
> with 3 photos of a partially built hull.
with 3 photos of a partially built hull.
The Camper File at Bolger Cartoons was full as was the files section
at Bolger6. So I posted the stuff at Bolger6 photos.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/photos/browse/febb
The hull is very simple and straighforward and I suppose could be used
as an open boat with two rowers. But then you lose all the shelter
capabilities and the ability to handle a 90 degree knockdown.
Camper is essentially an open boat with waist-high gunnels and side
decks. Also has the smaller centerboard and larger rudder that he
seems to favor in small camp cruisers so as to get more room amidships
for sleeping.
The last line on page two got chopped off. It referred to taking it to
your local marsh and using it as a bird blind:-)
Nels
This design fits into that group and in fact is posted in files in
a "Birdwatcher" folder. It has the larger rudder and smaller forward
centerboard as mentioned earlier.
It was designed for an athletic couple who live in the NW coastal
area - perhaps the San Juans. Has two rowing stations and you can
keep rowing and stay dry even when it is raining. Also the mast in in
a tabernacle so you can lower it in a minute if rowing against a
wind. Or to use for a tent center pole.
Essentially designed to not use any motor though.
A couple in CA have built the first, and only one I know of. It is
considerabley more complicated than BW1 I would think. But a lovely
design to my eye.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/Birdwatcher/
Cheers, Nels