Re: [bolger] Re: More Dipping Lugs from Swallowboats
> Ive buckets of photoswith the lug sail,but where does one post themThere are many 'free' options. If I am not mistaken,
> these days?
http://www.webshots.comlets you post photos for free.
Also pbase and photobucket, etc..
>Ive buckets of photoswith the lug sail,but where does one post them
> Any photos of your JB?
these days. It is indead a June bug. but the kiks couldnt handlethe
designed rig. I used the snotter pole as a mast and never looked
back. shes been riggedwith sprit sails,gaffs. often a lug mizzenis
usedand one experiment involved removing the jib and fitting a
foremast which extended forward of the bowto carry 20ft of lug sail..
at one point the JB was nearly 20 ft longwith spritsand flying jibs.
The JB is a great boat to play withif you want to play rigging
designer.
Is your yard peaked as high as the one shown
> on the Shelduck? That seems higher than most of the ones Bolgershows
> yet Romily is very high peaked as well, which would make it moreno Mine are quite flat, i work on the theory of low sail hieghtless
> unbalanced going downwind and tend to create roll in my view.
tipping effort.
I now just travel with the main lugsail. i think its about 45 ft. if
the wind is too light to use it i row or paddle. Bolger says the JB
was built for moving small moorings. One Day on a camping trip I
loaded her way over the gunnels with Heavy mulga firewood and sailed
down a narrow creek to the lake. the lug sail moved us easily
downwind . That night we werethe only camp with wood as all the
firewood areas wer cut off by the flooded countryside. I'll try find
the photos.
Cheers Paul
JewelBox!!!!!!!
Gene T.
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
Gene T.
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> >"Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...> wrote:
> > Thats quite right. on our JB
>
> JB as in "June Bug"? Or is there another JB?
> Dipping Lug rig on a June Bug?
>
>"Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...> wrote:JB as in "June Bug"? Or is there another JB?
> Thats quite right. on our JB
Dipping Lug rig on a June Bug?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pauldayau" <wattleweedooseeds@b...>
wrote:
Any photos of your JB? Is your yard peaked as high as the one shown
on the Shelduck? That seems higher than most of the ones Bolger shows
yet Romily is very high peaked as well, which would make it more
unbalanced going downwind and tend to create roll in my view.
I'm thinking that on a long downwind leg one could use a second
parrel on the yard, close to the mid point and then sheet the tack
back towards the mast more on the opposite side to the poled out
leach. Would be almost like an asymetrical spinnaker.
But the main advantage is not having a boom to contend with and then
not hesitating to use the engine when tacking.
Cheers, Nels
wrote:
> Thats quite right. on our JB the foot curls in almost goosewingingthe
> downwind. It also wants to liftand makes the boat a bit rolly in a
> good breeze. all this is easily fixedby having a small notch in the
> end of an oarand simply using the oar to pole out the sail. I use
> same sail standing or dippingbut only dip it if I have really biggaff
> long leg to sail.
> I tried this on the folding schooner but went back to a boomed
> becuase it was just too rolly.Hi Paul,
Any photos of your JB? Is your yard peaked as high as the one shown
on the Shelduck? That seems higher than most of the ones Bolger shows
yet Romily is very high peaked as well, which would make it more
unbalanced going downwind and tend to create roll in my view.
I'm thinking that on a long downwind leg one could use a second
parrel on the yard, close to the mid point and then sheet the tack
back towards the mast more on the opposite side to the poled out
leach. Would be almost like an asymetrical spinnaker.
But the main advantage is not having a boom to contend with and then
not hesitating to use the engine when tacking.
Cheers, Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...> wrote:
downwind. It also wants to liftand makes the boat a bit rolly in a
good breeze. all this is easily fixedby having a small notch in the
end of an oarand simply using the oar to pole out the sail. I use the
same sail standing or dippingbut only dip it if I have really big
long leg to sail.
I tried this on the folding schooner but went back to a boomed gaff
becuase it was just too rolly.
The fifies and zulus mentioned changed over to gaff systems during
the early 1900s as they carried less and less crew due to the cost.
the big drift netters also used to lower those big foemaststo stop
the boat rolling to much and tuggng at the nets. hence the stayless
rigs.
get hold of "SAILING DRIFTERS" 1952 by edgar J March. brilliant.
also " Trawling under sail, "The plans for MASTER HAND are good
enough to build with and "spritsail Bargeof thames and medway."
If you thought Bolger was hard to get hold of wait till you try to
get these babies. I had to read them in a special room in the
library.
cheers Paul
Cheeers paul
>to set
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nels" <arvent@h...>
>
> > Great looking little boat. And the sail looks like it really sets
> > well. I wonder, can you square it out when going downwind?
> >
> > I want one of those:-)
> >
> > Nels
>
>
> PCB says somewhere that the sheet needs to be guyed out to get it
> well downwind.Thats quite right. on our JB the foot curls in almost goosewinging
downwind. It also wants to liftand makes the boat a bit rolly in a
good breeze. all this is easily fixedby having a small notch in the
end of an oarand simply using the oar to pole out the sail. I use the
same sail standing or dippingbut only dip it if I have really big
long leg to sail.
I tried this on the folding schooner but went back to a boomed gaff
becuase it was just too rolly.
The fifies and zulus mentioned changed over to gaff systems during
the early 1900s as they carried less and less crew due to the cost.
the big drift netters also used to lower those big foemaststo stop
the boat rolling to much and tuggng at the nets. hence the stayless
rigs.
get hold of "SAILING DRIFTERS" 1952 by edgar J March. brilliant.
also " Trawling under sail, "The plans for MASTER HAND are good
enough to build with and "spritsail Bargeof thames and medway."
If you thought Bolger was hard to get hold of wait till you try to
get these babies. I had to read them in a special room in the
library.
cheers Paul
Cheeers paul
>
> Gary
Sailmaker appears to have got it right also.
HJ
captreed48 wrote:
HJ
captreed48 wrote:
>
>
>
>>>Gary
>>>
>>>
>
>That's it. The way to dip a lug without lowering it all the way to
>the deck.
>
>Reed
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> > GaryThat's it. The way to dip a lug without lowering it all the way to
the deck.
Reed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> Great looking little boat. And the sail looks like it really sets
> well. I wonder, can you square it out when going downwind?
>
> I want one of those:-)
>
> Nels
PCB says somewhere that the sheet needs to be guyed out to get it to set
well downwind.
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ned Asplundh" <nasplundh@y...> wrote:
well. I wonder, can you square it out when going downwind?
I want one of those:-)
Nels
>Great looking little boat. And the sail looks like it really sets
> And from the same site:
>
>http://www.swallowboats.com/shelduckphotos4.htm
>
> Shelduck's dipping lug is rigged with a "continuous tack line" for
> singlehanding. Photos and captions may explain in more detail.
>
well. I wonder, can you square it out when going downwind?
I want one of those:-)
Nels
And from the same site:
http://www.swallowboats.com/shelduckphotos4.htm
Shelduck's dipping lug is rigged with a "continuous tack line" for
singlehanding. Photos and captions may explain in more detail.
http://www.swallowboats.com/shelduckphotos4.htm
Shelduck's dipping lug is rigged with a "continuous tack line" for
singlehanding. Photos and captions may explain in more detail.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@o...> wrote:
> Here's a good looking 70sf dipping lug being tried on a nice
little 14'er.
>
>http://www.swallowboats.com/stormdip.htm
>
> Gary
Here's a good looking 70sf dipping lug being tried on a nice little 14'er.
http://www.swallowboats.com/stormdip.htm
Gary
http://www.swallowboats.com/stormdip.htm
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
also relative to the size of the boat. It would certainly be doable
with the help of a winch.
OH WINCH!
Jeeze gotta get my eyes checked.
Nels:-)
> Not sure. Certainly the yard would be a lot lighter than on the 70footer because it's a much smaller rig, both in absolute terms and
also relative to the size of the boat. It would certainly be doable
with the help of a winch.
OH WINCH!
Jeeze gotta get my eyes checked.
Nels:-)
>>I was under the impression that Bolger could singlehandedly sail the dipping lug rigged 48' Resolution,
does anybody know if this was true or not?>>
Not sure. Certainly the yard would be a lot lighter than on the 70 footer because it's a much smaller rig, both in absolute terms and also relative to the size of the boat. It would certainly be doable with the help of a winch. The trick is to be able to get it down, round, and up again while the boat carries its way through the tack.
Bolger also described somewhere a system whereby the top of the yard was linked to the top of the mast by a long line, so when the sail was dropped for going about, the yard would hang vertically down along the mast. This makes shifting the yard from side to side a much less onerous task, but the feasibility of it depends on the geometry of the rig.
For information, a great friend of mine, Tony Campbell, had a grp 16-foot Shetland fourereen ('fourern', 'faering', 'fowereen' - all much the same) that he rigged with a good sized dipping lug, which he often used single-handed. It looked fantastic!
After he sold it, the new owner replaced the gorgeous trad sail with a Marconi rig. People have been burned at the stake for less! Anyway, his reward is to capsize frequently, and it serves him right, too!
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
"In a motorsailer, which is the only reasonable modern use for this
rig, the mizzen would be used as a steadying sail when under power
and again the flat sheeting would be appropriate. However, for yacht
use a boom on the mizzen would be acceptable. The boomkin could be
much shorter in that case, and the sail would be much more useful
when reaching and running, the motorsailor's normal points when under
sail alone.
The strong statements about the dipping lug in Rig 15, apply with
equal force to this rig. (Cat-ketch lugger). It happens to be the one
I chose for my own cruiser, using the mizzen for steadying and
supplement to the engine, and the mainsail for emergency power and
occasional amusement."
Bolger - always the one to keep things in perspective! It would
suggest that he was pretty laid back when cruising with Resolution,
which makes the name of his boat somewhat ironic:-)
That is exactly how I forsee my sailing with a Long Micro with
Pilothouse. Also I plan to trailer it more than once or twice.
Therefor I am wondering about using a dipping lug set-up instead of a
Chinese gaff rig. Much easier to set-up at a launching ramp and much
cheaper and less complicated. The big problem would be that the mast
has to be further aft than with the Chinese gaff - probably stepped
immediately forward of the pilot house? Also the bow would have to
have the fillets to prevent pounding as the boat would motor-sail
with less heel than the regular rig. This is the big advantage of
Seabird.
Tacking would involve a crew member, hopefully a young athletic woman.
(Hey - this is only a dream so far:-) It could be hopefully doused or
reefed without going on deck in an emergency, using the control lines
described in a previous post. A few details need working out there:-)
Bolger describes the dipping lug as,... "essentially a big jib with
the top cut off - set flying. The luff is kept taut by the weight of
the long, upper part of the yard."
Therefor the engine and the mizzen take the place of the mainsail in
a sense, compared to a sloop. The engine would be a T9.9 Yamaha,
which PCB&F claim the LM Navigator can handle.
Cheers,
Nels
> > You'd certainly need all the crew you could get on a 70-footerlike Reaper.
>100 Small Boat Rigs: Page 144
> I was under the impression that Bolger could single
> handedly sail the dipping lug rigged 48' Resolution,
> does anybody know if this was true or not?
"In a motorsailer, which is the only reasonable modern use for this
rig, the mizzen would be used as a steadying sail when under power
and again the flat sheeting would be appropriate. However, for yacht
use a boom on the mizzen would be acceptable. The boomkin could be
much shorter in that case, and the sail would be much more useful
when reaching and running, the motorsailor's normal points when under
sail alone.
The strong statements about the dipping lug in Rig 15, apply with
equal force to this rig. (Cat-ketch lugger). It happens to be the one
I chose for my own cruiser, using the mizzen for steadying and
supplement to the engine, and the mainsail for emergency power and
occasional amusement."
Bolger - always the one to keep things in perspective! It would
suggest that he was pretty laid back when cruising with Resolution,
which makes the name of his boat somewhat ironic:-)
That is exactly how I forsee my sailing with a Long Micro with
Pilothouse. Also I plan to trailer it more than once or twice.
Therefor I am wondering about using a dipping lug set-up instead of a
Chinese gaff rig. Much easier to set-up at a launching ramp and much
cheaper and less complicated. The big problem would be that the mast
has to be further aft than with the Chinese gaff - probably stepped
immediately forward of the pilot house? Also the bow would have to
have the fillets to prevent pounding as the boat would motor-sail
with less heel than the regular rig. This is the big advantage of
Seabird.
Tacking would involve a crew member, hopefully a young athletic woman.
(Hey - this is only a dream so far:-) It could be hopefully doused or
reefed without going on deck in an emergency, using the control lines
described in a previous post. A few details need working out there:-)
Bolger describes the dipping lug as,... "essentially a big jib with
the top cut off - set flying. The luff is kept taut by the weight of
the long, upper part of the yard."
Therefor the engine and the mizzen take the place of the mainsail in
a sense, compared to a sloop. The engine would be a T9.9 Yamaha,
which PCB&F claim the LM Navigator can handle.
Cheers,
Nels
> You'd certainly need all the crew you could get on a 70-footer like Reaper.I was under the impression that Bolger could single
handedly sail the dipping lug rigged 48' Resolution,
does anybody know if this was true or not?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
Could that be right?
and the like, basically to keep the tack out of the working area,
when laying to the nets.
Despite the size of these mizzens they were often struck when sailing
home as they could not be sheeted very effectively with no boom and
were blocked by the big mainsail. There is a photo of some of them,
likely racing for home, at the website you posted. None had their
mizzens set.
Cheers, Nels
>> PS I seem to remember reading somewhere that a standing lugs'l isjust a dipping one with the tack taken back to the foot of the mast.
Could that be right?
>I think that is correct and that is how the mizzen was set in Zulus
and the like, basically to keep the tack out of the working area,
when laying to the nets.
Despite the size of these mizzens they were often struck when sailing
home as they could not be sheeted very effectively with no boom and
were blocked by the big mainsail. There is a photo of some of them,
likely racing for home, at the website you posted. None had their
mizzens set.
Cheers, Nels
Maybe worth mentioning here - A traditional dipping lug would seldom (if ever) used on the 'bad' tack. Reason was that the halyard was cleated to the gun'l on the side opposite the sail, giving a stay (where it's needed) to the otherwise unstayed mast. On the bad tack, this stay wouldn't help keep the mast up, so bad tacking could only be done in light airs.
By the way, these spars were all struck down inside the boat while fishing, with the exception of the mizzen which was normally used to keep head to wind while drift netting. You'd certainly need all the crew you could get on a 70-footer like Reaper. The spars are enormous. Even though the mast was balanced nicely in a tabernacle, the yard is still a spar to be reckoned with, and needs the muscle of a fair few guys to shift it.
Bill
PS I seem to remember reading somewhere that a standing lugs'l is just a dipping one with the tack taken back to the foot of the mast. Could that be right?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
By the way, these spars were all struck down inside the boat while fishing, with the exception of the mizzen which was normally used to keep head to wind while drift netting. You'd certainly need all the crew you could get on a 70-footer like Reaper. The spars are enormous. Even though the mast was balanced nicely in a tabernacle, the yard is still a spar to be reckoned with, and needs the muscle of a fair few guys to shift it.
Bill
PS I seem to remember reading somewhere that a standing lugs'l is just a dipping one with the tack taken back to the foot of the mast. Could that be right?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Phil B. rigged a dinghy with a two dipping lug rigs, one on each side
of the mast. He had a crewman lower the weather rig and raise the
leeward rig for each tack. He related that the boat pointed as well
as nearby sloops and had a lot of power. He said that the tacks were
slow and having two complete rigs probably wasn't worth it. He still
viewed it as a powerful sail for long tacks.
I corresponded with a fellow who had a dipping lug rigged so he could
dip the rig from the helm position. The tack had two lines attached,
one running either side of the mast and each to a block at the stem
head and back to a cleat on the gunwale. To tack he released the
leeward line. Pulling on the new leeward line when the boat was
aligned upwind caused the tack to come aft and pulled the forward end
of the yard down behind the mast. The tack and yard both passed
behind the mast and then forward. The line was pulled until the tack
was pulled up to the stem, then cleated. Since the "lazy" line had
to run forward to the stem from the rear third of the boat, back to
the mast and forward again to the stem, the control lines were quite
long.
He enjoyed the rig and said that it worked quite well after he got
used to tacking it.
Reed
He
of the mast. He had a crewman lower the weather rig and raise the
leeward rig for each tack. He related that the boat pointed as well
as nearby sloops and had a lot of power. He said that the tacks were
slow and having two complete rigs probably wasn't worth it. He still
viewed it as a powerful sail for long tacks.
I corresponded with a fellow who had a dipping lug rigged so he could
dip the rig from the helm position. The tack had two lines attached,
one running either side of the mast and each to a block at the stem
head and back to a cleat on the gunwale. To tack he released the
leeward line. Pulling on the new leeward line when the boat was
aligned upwind caused the tack to come aft and pulled the forward end
of the yard down behind the mast. The tack and yard both passed
behind the mast and then forward. The line was pulled until the tack
was pulled up to the stem, then cleated. Since the "lazy" line had
to run forward to the stem from the rear third of the boat, back to
the mast and forward again to the stem, the control lines were quite
long.
He enjoyed the rig and said that it worked quite well after he got
used to tacking it.
Reed
He
In the January/February 2004 edition of Watercraft Magazine, there is
an article called "Building a Celtic Lugger". The rig is a lugged cat-
ketch with dipping lug fore sail. It has an interesting sheeting(?)
arrangement whereby the fore sail can be dipped from one tack to the
next from the cockpit. Such an arrangement is worth a look for anyone
contemplating a dipping lug for their boat.
Dennis
an article called "Building a Celtic Lugger". The rig is a lugged cat-
ketch with dipping lug fore sail. It has an interesting sheeting(?)
arrangement whereby the fore sail can be dipped from one tack to the
next from the cockpit. Such an arrangement is worth a look for anyone
contemplating a dipping lug for their boat.
Dennis
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@y...> wrote:
nets, with each net being 30 yards long and five yards deep."
I don't think the crew was used just to sail the boat:-)
The sail rig shown is almost exactly what Mr. Bolger used on
Resolution based on the article on page 142 of 100 Small Boat Rigs
which diagrams a Scots Zulu. I think he often sailed alone.
He talks about it on page 43 as well. I can see it's possibility in
using it with a raised doghouse.
It is also on the original Seabird 86 at 252 square feet, and both
versions of Fast Motorsailer, the newer with 265 square feet of sail.
Would be interesting to get Bill McKibben's comments as he had the
original FMS.
Nice website from Scotland Tippy Bill! Those old Scots were a hardy
breed. Then one also has to marvel at the Orkney boys who regularly
went to Norway in small open boats called "Orkney Yoles" which was
from the Norwegian "yolle" meaning "small boat"! They had loose
footed spritsails mostly I guess with some dipping luggers.
I read an article in "Classic Boat" about them and they actually went
to Norway and brought back "kit boats" in the form of pre-cut strakes
and frames the Norwegians had made. They also got their barrel staves
there too.
Cheers, Nels
>"She had a crew of eight plus a boy who worked the 80 or so herring
> Crew was eight men and a boy and tacked infrequently. They would
> strike the rig, carry it around the mast, then make sail on the new
> tack. Think about the implications before you decide to fit your
> little single hander with a dipping lug.
>
nets, with each net being 30 yards long and five yards deep."
I don't think the crew was used just to sail the boat:-)
The sail rig shown is almost exactly what Mr. Bolger used on
Resolution based on the article on page 142 of 100 Small Boat Rigs
which diagrams a Scots Zulu. I think he often sailed alone.
He talks about it on page 43 as well. I can see it's possibility in
using it with a raised doghouse.
It is also on the original Seabird 86 at 252 square feet, and both
versions of Fast Motorsailer, the newer with 265 square feet of sail.
Would be interesting to get Bill McKibben's comments as he had the
original FMS.
Nice website from Scotland Tippy Bill! Those old Scots were a hardy
breed. Then one also has to marvel at the Orkney boys who regularly
went to Norway in small open boats called "Orkney Yoles" which was
from the Norwegian "yolle" meaning "small boat"! They had loose
footed spritsails mostly I guess with some dipping luggers.
I read an article in "Classic Boat" about them and they actually went
to Norway and brought back "kit boats" in the form of pre-cut strakes
and frames the Norwegians had made. They also got their barrel staves
there too.
Cheers, Nels
Mounts Bay Luggers were 80 to 120' if memory serves.
They are one of Phil Bolger's favorite working sail
vessels. They would sail the coast of England, almost
always with the proverbial two men and a boy as crew.
They are dipping lugs. They've made voyages at leastt
as far as Brazil from the UK.
I don't think you need a crew of eight if you know
what you are doing.
Phil Smith
They are one of Phil Bolger's favorite working sail
vessels. They would sail the coast of England, almost
always with the proverbial two men and a boy as crew.
They are dipping lugs. They've made voyages at leastt
as far as Brazil from the UK.
I don't think you need a crew of eight if you know
what you are doing.
Phil Smith
Crew was eight men and a boy and tacked infrequently. They would
strike the rig, carry it around the mast, then make sail on the new
tack. Think about the implications before you decide to fit your
little single hander with a dipping lug.
strike the rig, carry it around the mast, then make sail on the new
tack. Think about the implications before you decide to fit your
little single hander with a dipping lug.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Dipping lugsails were widely used around these parts (NE Scotland)
up until the 1930s. Their widespread use by fishermen was a testament
to their handiness. Typically, the boats would sail out to about 10
or 20 miles offshore in the morning, catch their fish, and head back
home in the evening.
>
> When the wind was dead on the nose they helped the boats along with
huge oars (sweeps). Make no mistake - these guys were racing (first
home got the best prices), and if there had been a more effective rig
around at the time, they'd have used it.
>
> This shows a picture of a surviving 'fifie' with dipping lug
mainsail and standing lug mizzen.
>
>http://www.scotfishmuseum.org/reaper/
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi,
Dipping lugsails were widely used around these parts (NE Scotland) up until the 1930s. Their widespread use by fishermen was a testament to their handiness. Typically, the boats would sail out to about 10 or 20 miles offshore in the morning, catch their fish, and head back home in the evening.
When the wind was dead on the nose they helped the boats along with huge oars (sweeps). Make no mistake - these guys were racing (first home got the best prices), and if there had been a more effective rig around at the time, they'd have used it.
This shows a picture of a surviving 'fifie' with dipping lug mainsail and standing lug mizzen.
http://www.scotfishmuseum.org/reaper/
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dipping lugsails were widely used around these parts (NE Scotland) up until the 1930s. Their widespread use by fishermen was a testament to their handiness. Typically, the boats would sail out to about 10 or 20 miles offshore in the morning, catch their fish, and head back home in the evening.
When the wind was dead on the nose they helped the boats along with huge oars (sweeps). Make no mistake - these guys were racing (first home got the best prices), and if there had been a more effective rig around at the time, they'd have used it.
This shows a picture of a surviving 'fifie' with dipping lug mainsail and standing lug mizzen.
http://www.scotfishmuseum.org/reaper/
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]