Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
Hey, Hey, I look at a 3 yr. warranty on a battery as ridiculous as who is
going to be around to honor it, or who is going to be around to accept the
warranty terms.
Comboat
going to be around to honor it, or who is going to be around to accept the
warranty terms.
Comboat
----- Original Message -----
From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
>
> John--Not only can you not build a cheaper boat than you can buy
(particularly if you include the cost of a trailer, compass, PFD's, anchor,
oars/paddle, and even a motor which often come with a used boat), most of us
cannot build a "better" boat than a factory. I build boats a) to get a boat
of a type which is not commercially available and b) for the
pleasure/gratification of the experience. My philosophy is to use good
materials, but not necessarily the best materials. For example, if you are
going to sheath a plywood boat with fg cloth set in epoxy, you will be
finishing fiberglass, not wood, and there is little advantage to using
LLoyds certified plywood. My current project is being built with Signal MDO
plywood and having cut up a bunch of it, I think it is a very nice material.
Only time will tell how long it will last, but since I'm 61, I'm not much
worried about it!
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John Bell
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
>
>
> One thing I almost added last night was that there are ways to make a
> significantly cheaper boat. One of them is going with a less expensive
> method of construction. "Instant" boat type construction as opposed to
"New
> Instant" boat construction is a lot cheaper. The boat I'm going to build
is
> a multichine taped seam glass sheathed design. This type of construction
is
> necessarily quite a bit more expensive, especially if it's to be done
> correctly.
>
> For an example of how different constructions change the cost, in one of
my
> projects I'm working with a local guy to build another one of my designs
> that uses the much cheaper "instant" construction. It's still going to
be
> more expensive than your Teal because it is a much larger boat. Also, I
did
> not take the normal minimalist approach that Bolger uses, allowing extra
> material and cost for things like decks, tanks, and seats. My guess is
that
> he'll be able to build this boat for around $700-$800 using MDO ply and
> lumberyard fir for the solid bits. (Seehttp://mistermoon.blogspot.com
for
> line drawings.)
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thierry" <southcoveemail@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:00 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
>
>
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > here are my expenses for a couple of sailing Teals I built last
> > summer(all Canadian dollars prices and per boat):
> >
> > 2 sheets of 3/8" BC douglas fir ply 74.73
> > 1/3 sheet 1/2" ply for rudder and leeboard 16.00
> > Bronze nails 23.00
> > Glue LP Premium (PUR) 9.20
> > Ash for rails from the local saw mill 20.00
> > Epoxy and tape to protect the ply edge on the chines 10.00
> > S/S screws 5.00
> > Eye bolts for gudgeons 5.10
> > Paint (Cabot deck stain)15.50
> > 7' oars (rough sawn lumber) 8.00
> > Rope 10.00
> > Sail (white polytarp from home depot) 16.10
> > Specialty tapes for sail 18.40
> >
> > Total CAN$ 231.00 or US$185.00.
> >
> > Let's add another US$15.00 for what I might have forgotten like spars
> > made from R.S. lumber (11' mast and 8' yard) from the local mill or
> > some Bondo to fill the knot holes in the ply and I have a new sailboat
> > for US$200.00
> >
> > I didn't use any hardware except for the rudder hinges made from eye
> > bolts and a rod. I made ash thole pins for the oars. I expect to put a
> > couple of coats of stain every year on the hulls. Spars and oars are
> > left bare. I expect to replace the sail (standing lug) every 2 seasons
> > depending on usage and storage.
> >
> > Beside my regular hand tools I used a table saw, a drill, a circular
> > saw, a jig saw and a power plane.
> >
> > I was planning to build three boats and sell one to pay for the
> > material but I only yet built 2. The third one is still in precut
> > parts and will hopefully be build this spring once I have reshingled
> > my roof.
> >
> > The boats sail and row as well as any other. A boat is just a boat.
> >
> > It's easy to get carried away with "quality".
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Thierry
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John--Not only can you not build a cheaper boat than you can buy (particularly if you include the cost of a trailer, compass, PFD's, anchor, oars/paddle, and even a motor which often come with a used boat), most of us cannot build a "better" boat than a factory. I build boats a) to get a boat of a type which is not commercially available and b) for the pleasure/gratification of the experience. My philosophy is to use good materials, but not necessarily the best materials. For example, if you are going to sheath a plywood boat with fg cloth set in epoxy, you will be finishing fiberglass, not wood, and there is little advantage to using LLoyds certified plywood. My current project is being built with Signal MDO plywood and having cut up a bunch of it, I think it is a very nice material. Only time will tell how long it will last, but since I'm 61, I'm not much worried about it!
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: John Bell
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
One thing I almost added last night was that there are ways to make a
significantly cheaper boat. One of them is going with a less expensive
method of construction. "Instant" boat type construction as opposed to "New
Instant" boat construction is a lot cheaper. The boat I'm going to build is
a multichine taped seam glass sheathed design. This type of construction is
necessarily quite a bit more expensive, especially if it's to be done
correctly.
For an example of how different constructions change the cost, in one of my
projects I'm working with a local guy to build another one of my designs
that uses the much cheaper "instant" construction. It's still going to be
more expensive than your Teal because it is a much larger boat. Also, I did
not take the normal minimalist approach that Bolger uses, allowing extra
material and cost for things like decks, tanks, and seats. My guess is that
he'll be able to build this boat for around $700-$800 using MDO ply and
lumberyard fir for the solid bits. (Seehttp://mistermoon.blogspot.comfor
line drawings.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thierry" <southcoveemail@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:00 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> here are my expenses for a couple of sailing Teals I built last
> summer(all Canadian dollars prices and per boat):
>
> 2 sheets of 3/8" BC douglas fir ply 74.73
> 1/3 sheet 1/2" ply for rudder and leeboard 16.00
> Bronze nails 23.00
> Glue LP Premium (PUR) 9.20
> Ash for rails from the local saw mill 20.00
> Epoxy and tape to protect the ply edge on the chines 10.00
> S/S screws 5.00
> Eye bolts for gudgeons 5.10
> Paint (Cabot deck stain)15.50
> 7' oars (rough sawn lumber) 8.00
> Rope 10.00
> Sail (white polytarp from home depot) 16.10
> Specialty tapes for sail 18.40
>
> Total CAN$ 231.00 or US$185.00.
>
> Let's add another US$15.00 for what I might have forgotten like spars
> made from R.S. lumber (11' mast and 8' yard) from the local mill or
> some Bondo to fill the knot holes in the ply and I have a new sailboat
> for US$200.00
>
> I didn't use any hardware except for the rudder hinges made from eye
> bolts and a rod. I made ash thole pins for the oars. I expect to put a
> couple of coats of stain every year on the hulls. Spars and oars are
> left bare. I expect to replace the sail (standing lug) every 2 seasons
> depending on usage and storage.
>
> Beside my regular hand tools I used a table saw, a drill, a circular
> saw, a jig saw and a power plane.
>
> I was planning to build three boats and sell one to pay for the
> material but I only yet built 2. The third one is still in precut
> parts and will hopefully be build this spring once I have reshingled
> my roof.
>
> The boats sail and row as well as any other. A boat is just a boat.
>
> It's easy to get carried away with "quality".
>
> Cheers
>
> Thierry
>
>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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----------
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing I almost added last night was that there are ways to make a
significantly cheaper boat. One of them is going with a less expensive
method of construction. "Instant" boat type construction as opposed to "New
Instant" boat construction is a lot cheaper. The boat I'm going to build is
a multichine taped seam glass sheathed design. This type of construction is
necessarily quite a bit more expensive, especially if it's to be done
correctly.
For an example of how different constructions change the cost, in one of my
projects I'm working with a local guy to build another one of my designs
that uses the much cheaper "instant" construction. It's still going to be
more expensive than your Teal because it is a much larger boat. Also, I did
not take the normal minimalist approach that Bolger uses, allowing extra
material and cost for things like decks, tanks, and seats. My guess is that
he'll be able to build this boat for around $700-$800 using MDO ply and
lumberyard fir for the solid bits. (Seehttp://mistermoon.blogspot.comfor
line drawings.)
significantly cheaper boat. One of them is going with a less expensive
method of construction. "Instant" boat type construction as opposed to "New
Instant" boat construction is a lot cheaper. The boat I'm going to build is
a multichine taped seam glass sheathed design. This type of construction is
necessarily quite a bit more expensive, especially if it's to be done
correctly.
For an example of how different constructions change the cost, in one of my
projects I'm working with a local guy to build another one of my designs
that uses the much cheaper "instant" construction. It's still going to be
more expensive than your Teal because it is a much larger boat. Also, I did
not take the normal minimalist approach that Bolger uses, allowing extra
material and cost for things like decks, tanks, and seats. My guess is that
he'll be able to build this boat for around $700-$800 using MDO ply and
lumberyard fir for the solid bits. (Seehttp://mistermoon.blogspot.comfor
line drawings.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thierry" <southcoveemail@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 9:00 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> here are my expenses for a couple of sailing Teals I built last
> summer(all Canadian dollars prices and per boat):
>
> 2 sheets of 3/8" BC douglas fir ply 74.73
> 1/3 sheet 1/2" ply for rudder and leeboard 16.00
> Bronze nails 23.00
> Glue LP Premium (PUR) 9.20
> Ash for rails from the local saw mill 20.00
> Epoxy and tape to protect the ply edge on the chines 10.00
> S/S screws 5.00
> Eye bolts for gudgeons 5.10
> Paint (Cabot deck stain)15.50
> 7' oars (rough sawn lumber) 8.00
> Rope 10.00
> Sail (white polytarp from home depot) 16.10
> Specialty tapes for sail 18.40
>
> Total CAN$ 231.00 or US$185.00.
>
> Let's add another US$15.00 for what I might have forgotten like spars
> made from R.S. lumber (11' mast and 8' yard) from the local mill or
> some Bondo to fill the knot holes in the ply and I have a new sailboat
> for US$200.00
>
> I didn't use any hardware except for the rudder hinges made from eye
> bolts and a rod. I made ash thole pins for the oars. I expect to put a
> couple of coats of stain every year on the hulls. Spars and oars are
> left bare. I expect to replace the sail (standing lug) every 2 seasons
> depending on usage and storage.
>
> Beside my regular hand tools I used a table saw, a drill, a circular
> saw, a jig saw and a power plane.
>
> I was planning to build three boats and sell one to pay for the
> material but I only yet built 2. The third one is still in precut
> parts and will hopefully be build this spring once I have reshingled
> my roof.
>
> The boats sail and row as well as any other. A boat is just a boat.
>
> It's easy to get carried away with "quality".
>
> Cheers
>
> Thierry
>
>
In deciding on the quality and cost of materials, the decisive
factors should be the refinement of the design and the level of
workmanship. I think PCB would look askance at employing
professional yacht craftsmanship and the best materials on a plywood
box. Conversely, if you are building a glued ply lapstrake dinghy or
canoe, you would be crazy to use fir and polyester.
An amateur(ish) mistake is to pick an easy design to suit one's
limited skills and time and then to allow a creator's pride to
dictate material quality. You have to be able to look at the boat
through the indifferent eyes of a potential purchaser. If you want
to show off your work, practice the appropriate skills. If you want
to have fun with a boat, assume that you will throw it away after a
short, happy life.
-Peter Belenky
factors should be the refinement of the design and the level of
workmanship. I think PCB would look askance at employing
professional yacht craftsmanship and the best materials on a plywood
box. Conversely, if you are building a glued ply lapstrake dinghy or
canoe, you would be crazy to use fir and polyester.
An amateur(ish) mistake is to pick an easy design to suit one's
limited skills and time and then to allow a creator's pride to
dictate material quality. You have to be able to look at the boat
through the indifferent eyes of a potential purchaser. If you want
to show off your work, practice the appropriate skills. If you want
to have fun with a boat, assume that you will throw it away after a
short, happy life.
-Peter Belenky
> The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or minus.I have never built a boat without breaking or wearing
> Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
out some power tool, add $150 or so for tool wear.
With the top notch materials and epoxy/glass sheathing
your boat could easily outlive many of the people
around here. If all you want is a boat with a
ten year life projection, you *could* get away with
cheaper materials. But, you got it right, the best
reason to build a boat is simply because you
want to _build_ it!
Hi,
here are my expenses for a couple of sailing Teals I built last
summer(all Canadian dollars prices and per boat):
2 sheets of 3/8" BC douglas fir ply 74.73
1/3 sheet 1/2" ply for rudder and leeboard 16.00
Bronze nails 23.00
Glue LP Premium (PUR) 9.20
Ash for rails from the local saw mill 20.00
Epoxy and tape to protect the ply edge on the chines 10.00
S/S screws 5.00
Eye bolts for gudgeons 5.10
Paint (Cabot deck stain)15.50
7' oars (rough sawn lumber) 8.00
Rope 10.00
Sail (white polytarp from home depot) 16.10
Specialty tapes for sail 18.40
Total CAN$ 231.00 or US$185.00.
Let's add another US$15.00 for what I might have forgotten like spars
made from R.S. lumber (11' mast and 8' yard) from the local mill or
some Bondo to fill the knot holes in the ply and I have a new sailboat
for US$200.00
I didn't use any hardware except for the rudder hinges made from eye
bolts and a rod. I made ash thole pins for the oars. I expect to put a
couple of coats of stain every year on the hulls. Spars and oars are
left bare. I expect to replace the sail (standing lug) every 2 seasons
depending on usage and storage.
Beside my regular hand tools I used a table saw, a drill, a circular
saw, a jig saw and a power plane.
I was planning to build three boats and sell one to pay for the
material but I only yet built 2. The third one is still in precut
parts and will hopefully be build this spring once I have reshingled
my roof.
The boats sail and row as well as any other. A boat is just a boat.
It's easy to get carried away with "quality".
Cheers
Thierry
here are my expenses for a couple of sailing Teals I built last
summer(all Canadian dollars prices and per boat):
2 sheets of 3/8" BC douglas fir ply 74.73
1/3 sheet 1/2" ply for rudder and leeboard 16.00
Bronze nails 23.00
Glue LP Premium (PUR) 9.20
Ash for rails from the local saw mill 20.00
Epoxy and tape to protect the ply edge on the chines 10.00
S/S screws 5.00
Eye bolts for gudgeons 5.10
Paint (Cabot deck stain)15.50
7' oars (rough sawn lumber) 8.00
Rope 10.00
Sail (white polytarp from home depot) 16.10
Specialty tapes for sail 18.40
Total CAN$ 231.00 or US$185.00.
Let's add another US$15.00 for what I might have forgotten like spars
made from R.S. lumber (11' mast and 8' yard) from the local mill or
some Bondo to fill the knot holes in the ply and I have a new sailboat
for US$200.00
I didn't use any hardware except for the rudder hinges made from eye
bolts and a rod. I made ash thole pins for the oars. I expect to put a
couple of coats of stain every year on the hulls. Spars and oars are
left bare. I expect to replace the sail (standing lug) every 2 seasons
depending on usage and storage.
Beside my regular hand tools I used a table saw, a drill, a circular
saw, a jig saw and a power plane.
I was planning to build three boats and sell one to pay for the
material but I only yet built 2. The third one is still in precut
parts and will hopefully be build this spring once I have reshingled
my roof.
The boats sail and row as well as any other. A boat is just a boat.
It's easy to get carried away with "quality".
Cheers
Thierry
> As I'm preparing to build my next boat (an 11' sailboat to my owndesign,
> see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget tobetter
> prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will beexpenses, it
> incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized
> really showed how much some of the things I've come to believe aboutboat
> are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of theway.
>5, but
> Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need
> buying one extra in case I mess up)some
> Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
> FG cloth - $50
> Fillers - $20
> Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
> Other lumber - $300
> Fasteners - $50
> Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
> Misc. hardware - $80
>
> These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have
> epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer,and some
> of my spars.minus.
>
> The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or
>I could
>
> Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to build.
> give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you couldcome back
> with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the11'er
> I'm proposing here.lumberyard
>
> Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality
> ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly $1500budget.
> And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I wouldnot have
> as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have tocome to
> the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheapplywood. In
> the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings atall. I
> leave you to draw your own conclusion.a the
>
> So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's
> boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
>
> Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
>
>
> John Bell <><
> Kennesaw, GA
>http://mistermoon.blogspot.com
>>I recallin the late 1940s seeing lapstrake lightweight outboard skiffs built
without plywood that were trailerable, lived out of water, and easy
to get into the water. They took some skill to make, no doubt, and
that's where one who wants to *build* has a great voyage standing in
the woodchips and sawdust. From tree to boat without
fiberglass/epoxy and ply suggests a challenge, but I suspect in a
person with creativity, knowledge, skill and good hands, a doable
thing. -- Dick>>
Well remembered Dick! I have in front of me a wee book that I bought many years go, which was first published in 1934 and reprinted/edited several times since. It is "Simple Boat Building" by Geoffrey Prout.
In it he describes how to make 8' and 9' flat bottom skiffs, a 12' dinghy - flat bottomed at the front but with some deadrise towards the stern, a 12' planing hull for OB power and a proper 8' pram dinghy. As well as that he has instructions on how to make a standing lugsail for your boat.
The flat bottoms are made from tongue and groove pine flooring and the planking from anything that happens to be available - preferably mahogany.
Handsome little unpretentious boats.
Unfortunately it's now out of print but second-hand copies come up occasionally.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi John. Bill has a good point, and one that should resonate well
with the Bolger crowd. But can we take yet one more step? I recall
in the late 1940s seeing lapstrake lightweight outboard skiffs built
without plywood that were trailerable, lived out of water, and easy
to get into the water. They took some skill to make, no doubt, and
that's where one who wants to *build* has a great voyage standing in
the woodchips and sawdust. From tree to boat without
fiberglass/epoxy and ply suggests a challenge, but I suspect in a
person with creativity, knowledge, skill and good hands, a doable
thing. -- Dick
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
with the Bolger crowd. But can we take yet one more step? I recall
in the late 1940s seeing lapstrake lightweight outboard skiffs built
without plywood that were trailerable, lived out of water, and easy
to get into the water. They took some skill to make, no doubt, and
that's where one who wants to *build* has a great voyage standing in
the woodchips and sawdust. From tree to boat without
fiberglass/epoxy and ply suggests a challenge, but I suspect in a
person with creativity, knowledge, skill and good hands, a doable
thing. -- Dick
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
> As I'm preparing to build my next boat (an 11' sailboat to my owndesign,
> see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget tobetter
> prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will beexpenses, it
> incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized
> really showed how much some of the things I've come to believeabout boat
> are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of theway.
>5, but
> Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need
> buying one extra in case I mess up)some
> Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
> FG cloth - $50
> Fillers - $20
> Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
> Other lumber - $300
> Fasteners - $50
> Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
> Misc. hardware - $80
>
> These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have
> epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer,and some
> of my spars.minus.
>
> The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or
>build. I could
>
> Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to
> give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you couldcome back
> with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the11'er
> I'm proposing here.lumberyard
>
> Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality
> ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly$1500 budget.
> And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I wouldnot have
> as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have tocome to
> the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheapplywood. In
> the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings atall. I
> leave you to draw your own conclusion.a the
>
> So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's
> boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
>
> Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
>
>
> John Bell <><
> Kennesaw, GA
>http://mistermoon.blogspot.com
Hi John,
Much as I agree with what you say, and indeed put it into practice myself, I'd hate anybody to give up on boatbuilding just because they've been told they need to go the top-quality route.
A shorter-lived version of your 11-footer could no doubt be made with luan ply, reclaimed timber, taped seams but no sheathing, polyester resin rather than epoxy, a polytarp sail and home-made fittings, for a materials cost of (ballpark) $400.
Notice that I'm not recommending this route, but if it's a choice between a cheap boat or no boat, I believe 'cheap boat' wins.
Of course I'm merely paraphrasing what Dynamite Payson said in his book "How to build the Gloucester Light Dory" -
"I do not recommend this reduction in standards, but I submit it for serious consideration by any would-be builder who cannot afford the luxury of first class . . ."
Cheers,
Bill
Much as I agree with what you say, and indeed put it into practice myself, I'd hate anybody to give up on boatbuilding just because they've been told they need to go the top-quality route.
A shorter-lived version of your 11-footer could no doubt be made with luan ply, reclaimed timber, taped seams but no sheathing, polyester resin rather than epoxy, a polytarp sail and home-made fittings, for a materials cost of (ballpark) $400.
Notice that I'm not recommending this route, but if it's a choice between a cheap boat or no boat, I believe 'cheap boat' wins.
Of course I'm merely paraphrasing what Dynamite Payson said in his book "How to build the Gloucester Light Dory" -
"I do not recommend this reduction in standards, but I submit it for serious consideration by any would-be builder who cannot afford the luxury of first class . . ."
Cheers,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: John Bell
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:19 AM
Subject: [bolger] Plywood debate, and boat building budgets.
As I'm preparing to build my next boat (an 11' sailboat to my own design,
see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget to better
prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will be
incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized expenses, it
really showed how much some of the things I've come to believe about boat
are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of the way.
Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need 5, but
buying one extra in case I mess up)
Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
FG cloth - $50
Fillers - $20
Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
Other lumber - $300
Fasteners - $50
Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
Misc. hardware - $80
These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have some
epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer, and some
of my spars.
The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or minus.
Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to build. I could
give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you could come back
with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the 11'er
I'm proposing here.
Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality lumberyard
ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly $1500 budget.
And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I would not have
as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have to come to
the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheap plywood. In
the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings at all. I
leave you to draw your own conclusion.
So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's a the
boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://mistermoon.blogspot.com
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John,
I came to the exact same conclusions not long ago.
Rick Bedard
John Bell <smallboatdesigner@...> wrote:
As I'm preparing to build my next boat (an 11' sailboat to my own design,
see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget to better
prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will be
incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized expenses, it
really showed how much some of the things I've come to believe about boat
are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of the way.
Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need 5, but
buying one extra in case I mess up)
Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
FG cloth - $50
Fillers - $20
Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
Other lumber - $300
Fasteners - $50
Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
Misc. hardware - $80
These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have some
epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer, and some
of my spars.
The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or minus.
Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to build. I could
give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you could come back
with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the 11'er
I'm proposing here.
Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality lumberyard
ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly $1500 budget.
And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I would not have
as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have to come to
the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheap plywood. In
the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings at all. I
leave you to draw your own conclusion.
So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's a the
boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://mistermoon.blogspot.com
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I came to the exact same conclusions not long ago.
Rick Bedard
John Bell <smallboatdesigner@...> wrote:
As I'm preparing to build my next boat (an 11' sailboat to my own design,
see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget to better
prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will be
incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized expenses, it
really showed how much some of the things I've come to believe about boat
are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of the way.
Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need 5, but
buying one extra in case I mess up)
Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
FG cloth - $50
Fillers - $20
Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
Other lumber - $300
Fasteners - $50
Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
Misc. hardware - $80
These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have some
epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer, and some
of my spars.
The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or minus.
Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to build. I could
give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you could come back
with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the 11'er
I'm proposing here.
Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality lumberyard
ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly $1500 budget.
And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I would not have
as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have to come to
the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheap plywood. In
the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings at all. I
leave you to draw your own conclusion.
So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's a the
boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://mistermoon.blogspot.com
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
As I'm preparing to build my next boat (an 11' sailboat to my own design,
see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget to better
prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will be
incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized expenses, it
really showed how much some of the things I've come to believe about boat
are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of the way.
Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need 5, but
buying one extra in case I mess up)
Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
FG cloth - $50
Fillers - $20
Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
Other lumber - $300
Fasteners - $50
Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
Misc. hardware - $80
These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have some
epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer, and some
of my spars.
The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or minus.
Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to build. I could
give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you could come back
with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the 11'er
I'm proposing here.
Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality lumberyard
ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly $1500 budget.
And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I would not have
as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have to come to
the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheap plywood. In
the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings at all. I
leave you to draw your own conclusion.
So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's a the
boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://mistermoon.blogspot.com
see MAIB, October 15, 2004), I put together a preliminary budget to better
prepare my wife for how much the expenses are and when they will be
incurred. When I completed my first approximation of itemized expenses, it
really showed how much some of the things I've come to believe about boat
are true. Before I get to those, let's get the budget out of the way.
Plywood 6 sheets BS1088 Meranti, incl. shipping - $380 (only need 5, but
buying one extra in case I mess up)
Epoxy Resin, 3 gallons - $120
FG cloth - $50
Fillers - $20
Misc supplies, sandpaper, paint - $100
Other lumber - $300
Fasteners - $50
Sail, (Egyptian cotton Dacron from Duckworks) - $350
Misc. hardware - $80
These numbers are a little low in some areas because I already have some
epoxy, some sailing hardware, a lot of painting stuff, a trailer, and some
of my spars.
The total bill for this boat is projected to be $1460, plus or minus.
Realization number 1: It is cheaper to buy used than it is to build. I could
give any one of you $1500 to buy a boat. I'm confident you could come back
with a pretty nice sailboat. And probably one a lot larger than the 11'er
I'm proposing here.
Realization number 2: I could save money by using lower quality lumberyard
ply on my boat, but not more than about $280 out of the nearly $1500 budget.
And I'd have to work a lot harder to get a good finish and I would not have
as durable a boat. Is it worth it to cheap out on ply? I have to come to
the conclusion that it's simply not worth it to fool with cheap plywood. In
the big picture it doesn't really amount to much of a savings at all. I
leave you to draw your own conclusion.
So why spend so much money to build such a small boat? Because it's a the
boat I want. And I want to _build_ it. And that's reason enough.
Agree? Disagree? Let's hear it then!
John Bell <><
Kennesaw, GA
http://mistermoon.blogspot.com