Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>his boats!
> Payson himself uses AC ply and polyester resin. Nothing wrong with
>And Michalak also has built a bunch with automotive Bondo and
>
polyester.
Polyester won't work? Silly statements from people who are obviously
unread, AND inexperienced.
>>>Better to build and get on the water in a quick and dirty boat than to spend your life dreaming about "one day"...John T >>>
Well said, John. I've known many people who have spent years agonising about materials and design details who never get around to building a boat. I'll spare blushes and not mention the name of a certain individual a few years ago who pestered the lives out of everyone on this list, and then when you thought he was about to put saw to timber, he'd go and change his mind and start agonising again. The old hands will know exactly who I'm talking about. In fact I sometimes wonder if he was pulling our leg?
I've built boats from cheapo stuff that were supposed to last just a few years (actually, they're all still actively sailed/paddled/rowed, admittedly with increasing amounts of care and maintenance) and boats from the best materials money can buy. They all work fine - it's just that I'm prouder of showing off the good ones.
Payson himself uses AC ply and polyester resin. Nothing wrong with his boats!
Somebody has already pointed out that thousands of Mirror dinghies were built in the 60s with polyester/glass taped seams, and most of these are still actively sailed.
Come on, guys, we don't all have huge amounts of disposable income to spend on materials, though many of us have plenty of time to build boats. "The best is barely good enough" maybe applies to large yachts - but a 13 foot pirogue for pottering on the local pond? Get real. I bet nobody's used Bruynzeel Regina Mahogany to build one of these. I made one from luan underlayment and polyester resin about 10 years ago and the current owners still have lots of fun with it. It still looks pretty nice, too!
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Roger--There are a lot of ways to build a boat. The first boat I built was a skin on frame kayak covered with vinyl; the second was plywood on frames and chines and held together with powdered glue (something akin to weldwood). In recent years, "instant" or "stitch and glue" boats provide a way for a casual builder to turn out a useable boat fairly quickly. To build a fillet on the inside of the chines, thickened epoxy is the ideal, but bondo or thickened polyester resin works. The fiberglass which covers the chines can be wet out with epoxy or poyester will work. I prefer working with the good stuff, but for some guy who has to choose a boat design because it uses 3 sheets of AC ply unstead of 4 sheets and who is going to build his own sail out of a tarp, polyester works well enough to get him on the water. Better to build and get on the water in a quick and dirty boat than to spend your life dreaming about "one day"...
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Derby
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> From: John B. Trussell <John.Trussell@...>
> I hold to the position that the materials which go into a boat are only
> a small fraction of the overall cost, that the marginal increased cost
> of good materials is not all that great, and I use the very best materials
> I can find. I use epoxy rather than polyester resin for the reasons you
> site. I also use epoxy as a glue rather than weldwood (I never tried
> polyester resin as a glue--doubt it would work)
Amen!!!!
If your time or the calendar's is worth anything at all, trying to "make
do" with unsuitable materials is a mistake.
> However, if finances are a significant factor and you are going to use
> lumber yard plywood (which produces a useable boat), economy,
> followed to its logical conclusion, suggests that you also use a polyester
> filler (Bondo) and polyester resin. Polyester isn't as good as epoxy,
> but it is generally "good enough" for a basic boat, a first effort, an
> experiment, or a boat which will be used to destruction in short order.
My question is whether there are not better materials at even lower cost.
I have the, perhaps mistaken, impression that Bondo was designed to adhere
to metal, not wood. Metal and wood have very different coefficients of
expansion and elasticity. I also suspect that the bonding action is
different since wood's pores are used by epoxy and aren't available in
automotive sheet metal.
For a low cost, quick and dirty, boat, why not just slap some porch and
deck enamel on the plywood and make sure there's a tarp over the boat to
keep it dry on its trailer. 3M's 5200 eventually results in a fantastic
bond without the fine woodworking skills and high clamping pressure needed
for (the waterproof two part glue we used before epoxy, Resorcinol?).
Liquid Nails will also provide bonding and caulk for the nailed together
bits and pieces.
Mixing a resin and fiberglass to produce a composite material results in
something superior to either component which is why we like wood, nature's
approach to the problem. Since the "frozen snot" boats seem to work well,
I'm forced to ask whether all polyester resins are the same. I already
know that one uses different fiberglass for epoxy than for polyester due to
the different wetting characteristics. However, the fact that polyester is
used quite often does not mean that it's suitable for our quite different
construction techniques.
Roger
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Derby
> I like and enjoy working with epoxy, plywood, and fiberglass.
> What I don't understand is using polyester resin. It's nowhere
> near as effective as epoxy, even after you factor in the cost
> differential. (less adhesive, less waterproof)
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John B. Trussell <John.Trussell@...>
> >
> > Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you
have
> the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the water
where
> the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a
trailer,
> particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it
> will dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes
> around the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
> >
> > Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is
often
> a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or
> epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin,
buy a
> box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,
> plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
> way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be
dry
> sailed.
> >
> > I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
> >
> > John T
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Derby
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> >
> >
> > Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
> better
> > than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are
adhesives,
> but
> > thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and
treenails
> > (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
> >
> > I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for
low-cost,
> > non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
> >
> > Roger Derby
> >derbyrm@...
Bolger rules!!!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree with most of what John says. I "grew up" around and in the water (Puget Sound, Washington) and could drive a boat long before I ever could (legally or not) drive a car. I've done boatwright work over the years (sometimes even getting paid for it) on wood hulls up to 50' in length - including refastening, replanking, caulking, etc, etc. One thing I firmly believe, and have told other boaters ad nauseam, is: "on a boat the best is barely good enough". Period! When you're out in the middle of the ocean, sound, bay, lake, river... it's usually a loooooong "walk" to shore (and an even longer swim if you've forgotten your "Jesus shoes").
Ron Fossum
Ron Fossum
----- Original Message -----
From: John B. Trussell
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2005 4:45 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
Roger--In my old age and relative financial comfort, I hold to the position that the materials which go into a boat are only a small fraction of the overall cost, that the marginal increased cost of good materials is not all that great, and I use the very best materials I can find. I use epoxy rather than polyester resin for the reasons you site. I also use epoxy as a glue rather than weldwood (I never tried polyester resin as a glue--doubt it would work)
However, if finances are a significant factor and you are going to use lumber yard plywood (which produces a useable boat), economy, followed to its logical conclusion, suggests that you also use a polyester filler (Bondo) and polyester resin. Polyester isn't as good as epoxy, but it is generally "good enough" for a basic boat, a first effort, an experiment, or a boat which will be used to destruction in short order.
John T
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have the, perhaps mistaken, impression thatBondo adheres great to wood, and I bet that
> Bondo was designed to adhere
> to metal, not wood.
it was designed to be cheap more than anything else.
It seems like polyester resin and phenolic microballons,
and not much else.
Now in the era of cheap epoxy, I have taken to making
my own but use 20% phenolic microballons, and
80% white microballons [plus some colloidal silica]
because it sands great and has roughly the color of wood.
> From: John B. Trussell <John.Trussell@...>Amen!!!!
> I hold to the position that the materials which go into a boat are only
> a small fraction of the overall cost, that the marginal increased cost
> of good materials is not all that great, and I use the very best materials
> I can find. I use epoxy rather than polyester resin for the reasons you
> site. I also use epoxy as a glue rather than weldwood (I never tried
> polyester resin as a glue--doubt it would work)
If your time or the calendar's is worth anything at all, trying to "make
do" with unsuitable materials is a mistake.
> However, if finances are a significant factor and you are going to useMy question is whether there are not better materials at even lower cost.
> lumber yard plywood (which produces a useable boat), economy,
> followed to its logical conclusion, suggests that you also use a polyester
> filler (Bondo) and polyester resin. Polyester isn't as good as epoxy,
> but it is generally "good enough" for a basic boat, a first effort, an
> experiment, or a boat which will be used to destruction in short order.
I have the, perhaps mistaken, impression that Bondo was designed to adhere
to metal, not wood. Metal and wood have very different coefficients of
expansion and elasticity. I also suspect that the bonding action is
different since wood's pores are used by epoxy and aren't available in
automotive sheet metal.
For a low cost, quick and dirty, boat, why not just slap some porch and
deck enamel on the plywood and make sure there's a tarp over the boat to
keep it dry on its trailer. 3M's 5200 eventually results in a fantastic
bond without the fine woodworking skills and high clamping pressure needed
for (the waterproof two part glue we used before epoxy, Resorcinol?).
Liquid Nails will also provide bonding and caulk for the nailed together
bits and pieces.
Mixing a resin and fiberglass to produce a composite material results in
something superior to either component which is why we like wood, nature's
approach to the problem. Since the "frozen snot" boats seem to work well,
I'm forced to ask whether all polyester resins are the same. I already
know that one uses different fiberglass for epoxy than for polyester due to
the different wetting characteristics. However, the fact that polyester is
used quite often does not mean that it's suitable for our quite different
construction techniques.
Roger
> ----- Original Message -----have
> From: Roger Derby
> I like and enjoy working with epoxy, plywood, and fiberglass.
> What I don't understand is using polyester resin. It's nowhere
> near as effective as epoxy, even after you factor in the cost
> differential. (less adhesive, less waterproof)
> > [Original Message]
> > From: John B. Trussell <John.Trussell@...>
> >
> > Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you
> the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the waterwhere
> the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on atrailer,
> particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, itoften
> will dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes
> around the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
> >
> > Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is
> a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester orbuy a
> epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin,
> box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,dry
> plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
> way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be
> sailed.adhesives,
> >
> > I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
> >
> > John T
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Derby
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> >
> >
> > Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
> better
> > than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are
> buttreenails
> > thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and
> > (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)low-cost,
> >
> > I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for
> > non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
> >
> > Roger Derby
> >derbyrm@...
Roger--In my old age and relative financial comfort, I hold to the position that the materials which go into a boat are only a small fraction of the overall cost, that the marginal increased cost of good materials is not all that great, and I use the very best materials I can find. I use epoxy rather than polyester resin for the reasons you site. I also use epoxy as a glue rather than weldwood (I never tried polyester resin as a glue--doubt it would work)
However, if finances are a significant factor and you are going to use lumber yard plywood (which produces a useable boat), economy, followed to its logical conclusion, suggests that you also use a polyester filler (Bondo) and polyester resin. Polyester isn't as good as epoxy, but it is generally "good enough" for a basic boat, a first effort, an experiment, or a boat which will be used to destruction in short order.
John T
However, if finances are a significant factor and you are going to use lumber yard plywood (which produces a useable boat), economy, followed to its logical conclusion, suggests that you also use a polyester filler (Bondo) and polyester resin. Polyester isn't as good as epoxy, but it is generally "good enough" for a basic boat, a first effort, an experiment, or a boat which will be used to destruction in short order.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Derby
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
I like and enjoy working with epoxy, plywood, and fiberglass. What I don't
understand is using polyester resin. It's nowhere near as effective as
epoxy, even after you factor in the cost differential. (less adhesive,
less waterproof)
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
> [Original Message]
> From: John B. Trussell <John.Trussell@...>
>
> Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you have
the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the water where
the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a trailer,
particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it
will dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes
around the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
>
> Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is often
a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or
epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a
box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,
plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry
sailed.
>
> I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Derby
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
> Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
better
> than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are adhesives,
but
> thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and treenails
> (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
>
> I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
> non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
>
> Roger Derby
>derbyrm@...
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I like and enjoy working with epoxy, plywood, and fiberglass. What I don't
understand is using polyester resin. It's nowhere near as effective as
epoxy, even after you factor in the cost differential. (less adhesive,
less waterproof)
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a trailer,
particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it
will dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes
around the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a
box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,
plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry
sailed.
understand is using polyester resin. It's nowhere near as effective as
epoxy, even after you factor in the cost differential. (less adhesive,
less waterproof)
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
> [Original Message]the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the water where
> From: John B. Trussell <John.Trussell@...>
>
> Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you have
the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a trailer,
particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it
will dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes
around the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
>a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or
> Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is often
epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a
box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,
plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry
sailed.
>better
> I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Derby
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
> Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
> than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are adhesives,but
> thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and treenails
> (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
>
> I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
> non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
>
> Roger Derby
>derbyrm@...
It's pronounced "trunnel," but it's spelled treenails.
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
> [Original Message]toxic,
> From: robert pyfrom <neetra@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 3/11/2005 10:08:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
> I BELIEVE THE PROPER TERM IS TRUNNELS AND I've TRIED NON-FIBROUS ROOF COAT
> AND FOUND IT TO BE A GOOEY MESS.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "robert pyfrom" <neetra@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
> >
> > John, I have my shipwright's adze and caulking mallet and iron's [well
> > used ] as decorations on my office wall and as long as they produce
> useable
> > plywood that 's where they will stay. Polyester and epoxy are both
> > but it don't leak. I'm not an excellent joiner, but epoxy and polyesterhave
> let
> > me get by with [good enough].
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
> > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 7:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you
> > the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the waterwhere
> > the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on atrailer,
> > particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, itaround
> will
> > dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes
> > the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.buy a
> > >
> > > Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is
> often
> > a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or
> > epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin,
> > box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,low-cost,
> > plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
> way
> > I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry
> > sailed.
> > >
> > > I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
> > >
> > > John T
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Roger Derby
> > > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> > >
> > >
> > > Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
> > better
> > > than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are
> adhesives,
> > but
> > > thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and
> treenails
> > > (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
> > >
> > > I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for
> > > non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.to
> > >
> > > Roger Derby
> > >derbyrm@...
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: txsailor37 <txsailor37@...>
> > > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: 3/10/2005 9:33:58 PM
> > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> > > >
> > > > I have considered this debate for some time, especially as I was
> > > > considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
> > > > polyester and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
> > > > grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The
> price
> > > > to build just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
> > > > than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated
> > > > spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumberall
> any
> > > > way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by
> > > > means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > building a boat.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
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> > >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ----posts
> > >
> > >
> > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
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> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
> > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip awayFax:
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax:
> > (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> (978) 282-1349(978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
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>
I BELIEVE THE PROPER TERM IS TRUNNELS AND i'VE TRIED NON-FIBROUS ROOF COAT
AND FOUND IT TO BE A GOOEY MESS.
AND FOUND IT TO BE A GOOEY MESS.
----- Original Message -----
From: "robert pyfrom" <neetra@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
> John, I have my shipwright's adze and caulking mallett and iron's [well
> used ] as decorations on my office wall and as long as they produce
useable
> plywood that 's where they will stay. Polyester and epoxy are both toxic,
> but it don't leak. I'm not an excellent joiner, but epoxy and polyester
let
> me get by with [good enough].
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 7:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
> >
> > Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you have
> the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the water where
> the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a trailer,
> particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it
will
> dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes around
> the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
> >
> > Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is
often
> a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or
> epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a
> box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,
> plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best
way
> I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry
> sailed.
> >
> > I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
> >
> > John T
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Derby
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> > Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> >
> >
> > Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
> better
> > than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are
adhesives,
> but
> > thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and
treenails
> > (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
> >
> > I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
> > non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
> >
> > Roger Derby
> >derbyrm@...
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: txsailor37 <txsailor37@...>
> > > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: 3/10/2005 9:33:58 PM
> > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> > >
> > > I have considered this debate for some time, especially as I was
> > > considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
> > > polyester and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
> > > grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The
price
> > > to build just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
> > > than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated to
> > > spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumber
any
> > > way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by all
> > > means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of
> > > building a boat.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
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> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> Service.
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> >
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> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John, I have my shipwright's adze and caulking mallett and iron's [well
used ] as decorations on my office wall and as long as they produce useable
plywood that 's where they will stay. Polyester and epoxy are both toxic,
but it don't leak. I'm not an excellent joiner, but epoxy and polyester let
me get by with [good enough].
used ] as decorations on my office wall and as long as they produce useable
plywood that 's where they will stay. Polyester and epoxy are both toxic,
but it don't leak. I'm not an excellent joiner, but epoxy and polyester let
me get by with [good enough].
----- Original Message -----
From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
> Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you have
the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the water where
the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a trailer,
particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it will
dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes around
the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
>
> Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is often
a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or
epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a
box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately,
plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best way
I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry
sailed.
>
> I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Roger Derby
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
> Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really
better
> than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are adhesives,
but
> thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and treenails
> (Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
>
> I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
> non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
>
> Roger Derby
>derbyrm@...
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: txsailor37 <txsailor37@...>
> > To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 3/10/2005 9:33:58 PM
> > Subject: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
> >
> > I have considered this debate for some time, especially as I was
> > considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
> > polyester and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
> > grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The price
> > to build just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
> > than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated to
> > spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumber any
> > way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by all
> > means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of
> > building a boat.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>
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>
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Roger--Traditional boat building techniques are wonderful if a) you have the necessary skills and b) the resulting boat is kept in the water where the wood will absorb moisture and swell. If your boat lives on a trailer, particularly if it is towed significant distances at highway speeds, it will dry out and the vibration will make the boat "nail sick" (the holes around the fastenings will "waller out") and the boat will leak badly.
Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is often a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately, plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry sailed.
I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
John T
Plywood is not a nice material to work with. It dulls tools and is often a source of splinters. Fiberglass is nasty, itchy stuff. Polyester or epoxy resins are smelly, toxic materials (before you open any resin, buy a box of disposable rubber or vinyl gloves and wear them!). Unfortunately, plywood and fiberglass or strip construction and fiberglass are the best way I know to build a boat which is going to live on a trailer and be dry sailed.
I wish it wasn't so, but it is.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Roger Derby
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2005 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really better
than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are adhesives, but
thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and treenails
(Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
> [Original Message]
> From: txsailor37 <txsailor37@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 3/10/2005 9:33:58 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
> I have considered this debate for some time, especially as I was
> considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
> polyester and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
> grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The price
> to build just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
> than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated to
> spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumber any
> way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by all
> means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of
> building a boat.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why bother with the polyester? Nasty, poisonous stuff, is it really better
than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are adhesives, but
thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and treenails
(Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
than roofing tar and/or non-latex paints? None of these are adhesives, but
thousands of ships sailed the sea with well-fitted joints and treenails
(Yeah, I've been reading Patrick O'Brian again.)
I'd recommend reading Buehler's "Backyard Boatbuilding" for low-cost,
non-epoxy, methods of getting afloat.
Roger Derby
derbyrm@...
> [Original Message]
> From: txsailor37 <txsailor37@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 3/10/2005 9:33:58 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
> I have considered this debate for some time, especially as I was
> considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
> polyester and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
> grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The price
> to build just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
> than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated to
> spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumber any
> way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by all
> means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of
> building a boat.
I have considered this debate for some time, especially as I was
considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
polyeste and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The price
to buld just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated to
spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumber any
way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by all
means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of
building a boat.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
wrote:
considering building my own boat. I finally decided to go with
polyeste and AC grade wood. I had really intended to use marine
grade and epoxy, but when I saw the price I had to switch. The price
to buld just the hull would have been over a $1000 now it is less
than $500. My funds are tight and this is my first boat I hated to
spend all that money to perhaps end up with a pile of crap lumber any
way. My conclusion is, if you can afford the good stuff..... by all
means use it. If you can't don't let that stop you from the joy of
building a boat.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "seagulloutb" <dickburnham1@a...>
wrote:
>John
> I know this is an old story, but my mind requires refreshing if not
> refastening. Actually, my friend in Malaysia, Chung, brings this
> up. He has never built a boat and I showed him John Bell's nice
> Blackberry 11' on the internet (and isn't it nice/fantastic that
> makes his plans available for free--ohterwise Chung would have nothem.
> idea!) He is thinking of building a cardboard model -- he teaches
> art so he's handy. While Malaysia is not 3d world it nevertheless
> doesn't have readily available epoxy nor (get this) meranti marine
> grade ply (all shipped out). So Chung mentioned that the local
> boatbuilders (fiberglass dinghies with Yamahas) have huge tins
> of 'epoxy' and he thinks he just might get a few gallons from
> Along with 'mesh.' And why not?on
>
> I looked up the Googe Bros. on epoxy this morning and they went for
> it because it was, when they started out with their West
> System, 'cheap.' Oh yeah? Not so now. And as I get more and more
> into finishing my Chebacco I learn that 3 coats of straight epoxy
> the inside aren't enough -- some go for glass+, and of coursethere's
> the UV problem so paint is required. Given this, why not go with
> polyesters? Longevity is a function of protection from UV, as is
> epoxy? And for Chung who'll find the local stuff more affordable
> than the exotic epoxy, and will if he builds find the local
> lumberstore ply more accessible, what might be the best approach?
>
> Dick
I also advocate the use of equipment enamel from Ace Hardware. Cheaper than
name brands and mixed to order.
Bob
name brands and mixed to order.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
> An awful lot of boats have been put together with polyester taped plywood
( Mirror Dinghies for example). The promise of epoxy is that if you
"encapsulate" the plywood or strip planking, the wood core will last damn
near forever. The promise may be suspect, but at my age, "forever" is not
much of a concern. If you are going to build a boat out of lumberyard
plywood (to save money) and paint it with hardware store latex paint (to
save money) it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay a premium for epoxy and I
have suggested that such builders use polyester resin.
>
> If you subscribe to the theory that the materials are the least expensive
component of a boatbuilding project, then it makes sense to use the best
available materials.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: seagulloutb
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:33 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
>
> I know this is an old story, but my mind requires refreshing if not
> refastening. Actually, my friend in Malaysia, Chung, brings this
> up. He has never built a boat and I showed him John Bell's nice
> Blackberry 11' on the internet (and isn't it nice/fantastic that John
> makes his plans available for free--ohterwise Chung would have no
> idea!) He is thinking of building a cardboard model -- he teaches
> art so he's handy. While Malaysia is not 3d world it nevertheless
> doesn't have readily available epoxy nor (get this) meranti marine
> grade ply (all shipped out). So Chung mentioned that the local
> boatbuilders (fiberglass dinghies with Yamahas) have huge tins
> of 'epoxy' and he thinks he just might get a few gallons from them.
> Along with 'mesh.' And why not?
>
> I looked up the Googe Bros. on epoxy this morning and they went for
> it because it was, when they started out with their West
> System, 'cheap.' Oh yeah? Not so now. And as I get more and more
> into finishing my Chebacco I learn that 3 coats of straight epoxy on
> the inside aren't enough -- some go for glass+, and of course there's
> the UV problem so paint is required. Given this, why not go with
> polyesters? Longevity is a function of protection from UV, as is
> epoxy? And for Chung who'll find the local stuff more affordable
> than the exotic epoxy, and will if he builds find the local
> lumberstore ply more accessible, what might be the best approach?
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>
>
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
>
> ----------
>
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
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>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
Very true and the Gougeons brothers,along with a slew of notables
like Sam Devlin,have been slowly winning an up-hill battle trying to
re-educate the boating public that plywood boats are viable things
and not as bad as their rotting,delaminating aged cousins of the
past,ie;pre-epoxy era.
or so thinks I :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who has done his share of peeling huge sheets of
fiberglass/poly from plywood coach roofs and various
skiffs/yachts,from along the shores of the mighty
St.Lawrence.............
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> An awful lot of boats have been put together with polyester tapedplywood ( Mirror Dinghies for example).
Very true and the Gougeons brothers,along with a slew of notables
like Sam Devlin,have been slowly winning an up-hill battle trying to
re-educate the boating public that plywood boats are viable things
and not as bad as their rotting,delaminating aged cousins of the
past,ie;pre-epoxy era.
or so thinks I :-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who has done his share of peeling huge sheets of
fiberglass/poly from plywood coach roofs and various
skiffs/yachts,from along the shores of the mighty
St.Lawrence.............
Having done boats both with polyester and epoxy, I prefer the latter.
But that's at least in part because I live in Florida along the
northern Gulf coast where it's hot and humid. Dynamite Payson likes
Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue for boats, but I've had two varnished
masts using Weldwood delaminate in the Florida heat. For that same
reason, I think epoxy is a better choice here.
Also, epoxy seems more flexible than polyester. I've glassed a
radiused corner with polyester where I'm sure cloth set in epoxy
would have been fine and had the polyester saturated cloth crack. So
I guess a bigger radius in corners is called for.
That said, I recently (for reasons best not gone into here) cut up a
boat I built 12 years ago using polester sheathing with the Alan
Vaitses method -- cloth stapled to the hull and then resin applied.
It was a cloth, matte, cloth layup over the ply, with extra at the V
bottom and at the stem. It was also built tack & tape using
polyester. Other than a crack at the bow (that too small radius)
where rot had been repaired several years ago, it was in fine shape
with no damage to the ply.
But I still prefer and use epoxy for all boats since.
BTW, I buy epoxy from Fiberglass Coatins Inc. in St. Petersburg, FL.
They have several excellent blends (from 1:1 to 1:5) and costs $31 to
$33 a gallon last time I checked. Their website is www.fgci.com. Good
stuff and I've never had it fail.
Gary Blankenship
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
if you "encapsulate" the plywood or strip planking, the wood core
will last damn near forever. The promise may be suspect, but at my
age, "forever" is not much of a concern. If you are going to build a
boat out of lumberyard plywood (to save money) and paint it with
hardware store latex paint (to save money) it doesn't make a lot of
sense to pay a premium for epoxy and I have suggested that such
builders use polyester resin.
use the best available materials.
But that's at least in part because I live in Florida along the
northern Gulf coast where it's hot and humid. Dynamite Payson likes
Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue for boats, but I've had two varnished
masts using Weldwood delaminate in the Florida heat. For that same
reason, I think epoxy is a better choice here.
Also, epoxy seems more flexible than polyester. I've glassed a
radiused corner with polyester where I'm sure cloth set in epoxy
would have been fine and had the polyester saturated cloth crack. So
I guess a bigger radius in corners is called for.
That said, I recently (for reasons best not gone into here) cut up a
boat I built 12 years ago using polester sheathing with the Alan
Vaitses method -- cloth stapled to the hull and then resin applied.
It was a cloth, matte, cloth layup over the ply, with extra at the V
bottom and at the stem. It was also built tack & tape using
polyester. Other than a crack at the bow (that too small radius)
where rot had been repaired several years ago, it was in fine shape
with no damage to the ply.
But I still prefer and use epoxy for all boats since.
BTW, I buy epoxy from Fiberglass Coatins Inc. in St. Petersburg, FL.
They have several excellent blends (from 1:1 to 1:5) and costs $31 to
$33 a gallon last time I checked. Their website is www.fgci.com. Good
stuff and I've never had it fail.
Gary Blankenship
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> An awful lot of boats have been put together with polyester tapedplywood ( Mirror Dinghies for example). The promise of epoxy is that
if you "encapsulate" the plywood or strip planking, the wood core
will last damn near forever. The promise may be suspect, but at my
age, "forever" is not much of a concern. If you are going to build a
boat out of lumberyard plywood (to save money) and paint it with
hardware store latex paint (to save money) it doesn't make a lot of
sense to pay a premium for epoxy and I have suggested that such
builders use polyester resin.
>expensive component of a boatbuilding project, then it makes sense to
> If you subscribe to the theory that the materials are the least
use the best available materials.
>not
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: seagulloutb
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:33 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Polyester vs. Epoxy
>
>
>
> I know this is an old story, but my mind requires refreshing if
> refastening. Actually, my friend in Malaysia, Chung, brings thisJohn
> up. He has never built a boat and I showed him John Bell's nice
> Blackberry 11' on the internet (and isn't it nice/fantastic that
> makes his plans available for free--ohterwise Chung would have noteaches
> idea!) He is thinking of building a cardboard model -- he
> art so he's handy. While Malaysia is not 3d world itnevertheless
> doesn't have readily available epoxy nor (get this) merantimarine
> grade ply (all shipped out). So Chung mentioned that the localthem.
> boatbuilders (fiberglass dinghies with Yamahas) have huge tins
> of 'epoxy' and he thinks he just might get a few gallons from
> Along with 'mesh.' And why not?for
>
> I looked up the Googe Bros. on epoxy this morning and they went
> it because it was, when they started out with their Westmore
> System, 'cheap.' Oh yeah? Not so now. And as I get more and
> into finishing my Chebacco I learn that 3 coats of straight epoxyon
> the inside aren't enough -- some go for glass+, and of coursethere's
> the UV problem so paint is required. Given this, why not go withposts
> polyesters? Longevity is a function of protection from UV, as is
> epoxy? And for Chung who'll find the local stuff more affordable
> than the exotic epoxy, and will if he builds find the local
> lumberstore ply more accessible, what might be the best approach?
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com----------
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>3/1/2005
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An awful lot of boats have been put together with polyester taped plywood ( Mirror Dinghies for example). The promise of epoxy is that if you "encapsulate" the plywood or strip planking, the wood core will last damn near forever. The promise may be suspect, but at my age, "forever" is not much of a concern. If you are going to build a boat out of lumberyard plywood (to save money) and paint it with hardware store latex paint (to save money) it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay a premium for epoxy and I have suggested that such builders use polyester resin.
If you subscribe to the theory that the materials are the least expensive component of a boatbuilding project, then it makes sense to use the best available materials.
John T
If you subscribe to the theory that the materials are the least expensive component of a boatbuilding project, then it makes sense to use the best available materials.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: seagulloutb
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:33 AM
Subject: [bolger] Polyester vs. Epoxy
I know this is an old story, but my mind requires refreshing if not
refastening. Actually, my friend in Malaysia, Chung, brings this
up. He has never built a boat and I showed him John Bell's nice
Blackberry 11' on the internet (and isn't it nice/fantastic that John
makes his plans available for free--ohterwise Chung would have no
idea!) He is thinking of building a cardboard model -- he teaches
art so he's handy. While Malaysia is not 3d world it nevertheless
doesn't have readily available epoxy nor (get this) meranti marine
grade ply (all shipped out). So Chung mentioned that the local
boatbuilders (fiberglass dinghies with Yamahas) have huge tins
of 'epoxy' and he thinks he just might get a few gallons from them.
Along with 'mesh.' And why not?
I looked up the Googe Bros. on epoxy this morning and they went for
it because it was, when they started out with their West
System, 'cheap.' Oh yeah? Not so now. And as I get more and more
into finishing my Chebacco I learn that 3 coats of straight epoxy on
the inside aren't enough -- some go for glass+, and of course there's
the UV problem so paint is required. Given this, why not go with
polyesters? Longevity is a function of protection from UV, as is
epoxy? And for Chung who'll find the local stuff more affordable
than the exotic epoxy, and will if he builds find the local
lumberstore ply more accessible, what might be the best approach?
Dick
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
----------
Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.7 - Release Date: 3/1/2005
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just for what it is worth, based on the observed waterline
of my Micro Navigator, I calculate the displacement to be
2,050 lbs with gear, but with no people.
I think that the bare Micro displacement was calculated
by Bolger to be 1,600 lbs., at least that is what I recall.
[Also, I am having a hard time imagining the geometry
of the center of sail to center of lateral plane.]
On a beam reach, I achieved a neutral helm by nearly
fully feathering the mizzen. Indeed, the only time I wanted
to sheet the mizzen tight was if wanted to point the boat
into the wind, 'hove-to' is that called?
of my Micro Navigator, I calculate the displacement to be
2,050 lbs with gear, but with no people.
I think that the bare Micro displacement was calculated
by Bolger to be 1,600 lbs., at least that is what I recall.
[Also, I am having a hard time imagining the geometry
of the center of sail to center of lateral plane.]
On a beam reach, I achieved a neutral helm by nearly
fully feathering the mizzen. Indeed, the only time I wanted
to sheet the mizzen tight was if wanted to point the boat
into the wind, 'hove-to' is that called?
I know this is an old story, but my mind requires refreshing if not
refastening. Actually, my friend in Malaysia, Chung, brings this
up. He has never built a boat and I showed him John Bell's nice
Blackberry 11' on the internet (and isn't it nice/fantastic that John
makes his plans available for free--ohterwise Chung would have no
idea!) He is thinking of building a cardboard model -- he teaches
art so he's handy. While Malaysia is not 3d world it nevertheless
doesn't have readily available epoxy nor (get this) meranti marine
grade ply (all shipped out). So Chung mentioned that the local
boatbuilders (fiberglass dinghies with Yamahas) have huge tins
of 'epoxy' and he thinks he just might get a few gallons from them.
Along with 'mesh.' And why not?
I looked up the Googe Bros. on epoxy this morning and they went for
it because it was, when they started out with their West
System, 'cheap.' Oh yeah? Not so now. And as I get more and more
into finishing my Chebacco I learn that 3 coats of straight epoxy on
the inside aren't enough -- some go for glass+, and of course there's
the UV problem so paint is required. Given this, why not go with
polyesters? Longevity is a function of protection from UV, as is
epoxy? And for Chung who'll find the local stuff more affordable
than the exotic epoxy, and will if he builds find the local
lumberstore ply more accessible, what might be the best approach?
Dick
refastening. Actually, my friend in Malaysia, Chung, brings this
up. He has never built a boat and I showed him John Bell's nice
Blackberry 11' on the internet (and isn't it nice/fantastic that John
makes his plans available for free--ohterwise Chung would have no
idea!) He is thinking of building a cardboard model -- he teaches
art so he's handy. While Malaysia is not 3d world it nevertheless
doesn't have readily available epoxy nor (get this) meranti marine
grade ply (all shipped out). So Chung mentioned that the local
boatbuilders (fiberglass dinghies with Yamahas) have huge tins
of 'epoxy' and he thinks he just might get a few gallons from them.
Along with 'mesh.' And why not?
I looked up the Googe Bros. on epoxy this morning and they went for
it because it was, when they started out with their West
System, 'cheap.' Oh yeah? Not so now. And as I get more and more
into finishing my Chebacco I learn that 3 coats of straight epoxy on
the inside aren't enough -- some go for glass+, and of course there's
the UV problem so paint is required. Given this, why not go with
polyesters? Longevity is a function of protection from UV, as is
epoxy? And for Chung who'll find the local stuff more affordable
than the exotic epoxy, and will if he builds find the local
lumberstore ply more accessible, what might be the best approach?
Dick