Re: [bolger] Re: Double Eagle rudders
No, I did not. And I will be happy to send you detailed pics of how the
things fit together after two seasons (i.e. two seasons sailing and all
season kept in a rather exposed seaberth).
Bjørn
fritzdfk wrote:
things fit together after two seasons (i.e. two seasons sailing and all
season kept in a rather exposed seaberth).
Bjørn
fritzdfk wrote:
>
> As in many other things I think of alternatives to what Bolger has
> designed. After going off on long involved tangents I almost always
> in the end realize that Bolger's way is really the best. I will go
> with the plywood blocks. Bjorn, did you use stainless steel bushings
> also?
>
> fritz koschmann
As in many other things I think of alternatives to what Bolger has
designed. After going off on long involved tangents I almost always
in the end realize that Bolger's way is really the best. I will go
with the plywood blocks. Bjorn, did you use stainless steel bushings
also?
fritz koschmann
designed. After going off on long involved tangents I almost always
in the end realize that Bolger's way is really the best. I will go
with the plywood blocks. Bjorn, did you use stainless steel bushings
also?
fritz koschmann
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bjørn Harbo <bharbo@o...> wrote:
> For what it is worth: The WDJ has exactly the same setup with a
> stainless rod and ply gudgeon. For me it has worked perfectly for
two
> seasons in rather spooky conditions. No signs of play or failure (in
> that part of the boat i.e....).
> I'd stick to the plans as well :-)
> Bjørn
> The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and I can do it allYou might ask Bolger again about your concerns.
> myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I think about how much
> they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Any suggestions?
I recall that mild steel has about 29 ksi strength
and Dfir wood has about 3 ksi. In crude terms
steel is ten times stronger than wood, so if made
ten times thicker should be equal. [Or course,
things aren't always equal.] My point is, that if
made 'beefy' enough, there are situations where
wood is actually stronger than steel.
For what it is worth: The WDJ has exactly the same setup with a
stainless rod and ply gudgeon. For me it has worked perfectly for two
seasons in rather spooky conditions. No signs of play or failure (in
that part of the boat i.e....).
I'd stick to the plans as well :-)
Bjørn
stainless rod and ply gudgeon. For me it has worked perfectly for two
seasons in rather spooky conditions. No signs of play or failure (in
that part of the boat i.e....).
I'd stick to the plans as well :-)
Bjørn
On Thu, 2005-03-10 at 03:26 +0000, fritzdfk wrote:
>
> I have the rudders built and would like to hang them. They have
> retractable blades,are about 8' tall and heavy. All marine fir
> plywood. The upper rudder cheeks, are 5 1/4" thick, have extensions
> to acommodate a 1" stainless steel bar run down through these
> extensions and through gudgeon blocks bolted through the transom. I
> have added scans of the drawings here:
>
>http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger5/lst
>
> The gudgeons are also plywood and if I go with them I would heavily
> glass the outsides. Bolger suggests that the holes in the plywood for
> the rod be bushed with stainless bushings. I have also been
> considering delrin bushings in fiberglass tubes glued into the
> plywood. Also bronze bushings. The plywood causes me some concern,
> namely strength and long term reliability so I have also considered
> having stainless fittings made. The plywood gudgeon blocks would be
> replaced with a welded stainless bracket and the extensions on the
> upper rudder housing would be cut off and replaced with a tube welded
> to straps extending on the outsides of the upper rudder, more of a
> traditional set-up. These metal pieces could also be made from plain
> mild steel and then galvanised or seriously painted. The question
> also arises thought about what kind of bushings to use.
>
> The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and I can do it all
> myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I think about how much
> they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Any suggestions?
>
> On a different topic. About a year ago I bought 6 full sheets (4' X
> 8') of 1/2" polycarbonate, scratch resistant, for around $350.00 a
> sheet. Since I screwed up I have to buy approximately 1/2 sheet more.
> The price for a full sheet is now $1000.00. This happened just a
> month ago I guess.
>
> fritz koschmann
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> powder epoxy on his bubbled and they had to be donehttp://www.corp.indgalv.com.au/technical/powcoat.htm
> again.
Describes this problem.
Powder coating provides a great durable finish, but I am
unaware of much use of powder coating among
boat builders. Not that it couldn't be used.
Dan Burril wrote:
see any value in coating galvanised steel, with epoxy or anything
else. The zinc should provide protection for the metal, and you
want to see if there is any corrosion.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Are you saying that he had the frame epoxy-coated and then galvanised,Presumably he epoxy coated AFTER galvanising. I don't really
> in that order?
see any value in coating galvanised steel, with epoxy or anything
else. The zinc should provide protection for the metal, and you
want to see if there is any corrosion.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Be very careful welding galvanised steel. The galvanising is very toxic and
produces symptoms very close to the flu.
produces symptoms very close to the flu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Burrill" <dan@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Double Eagle rudders
>
> ANDREW AIREY wrote:
>
> > One possible word of warning regarding galvanising.It
> > is possible that it might react adversely with epoxy.I
> > may be way off line here but a few years ago a friend
> > and I had some motorcycle frames shotblasted and
> > powder epoxy coated.My friend wanted a 'belt and
> > braces' job so had his frames galvanised.All the
> > powder epoxy on his bubbled and they had to be done
> > again.
>
> Are you saying that he had the frame epoxy-coated and then galvanised,
> in that order?
>
> If so, it's no wonder the epoxy coating was damaged, as the galvanising
> process involves dipping the frame into a tank of molten zinc (I've seen
> it done). Epoxy may be wonderful stuff, but I'm not sure it'll take much
> in the way of exposure to temperatures of around 700 kelvin.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
ANDREW AIREY wrote:
in that order?
If so, it's no wonder the epoxy coating was damaged, as the galvanising
process involves dipping the frame into a tank of molten zinc (I've seen
it done). Epoxy may be wonderful stuff, but I'm not sure it'll take much
in the way of exposure to temperatures of around 700 kelvin.
Dan
> One possible word of warning regarding galvanising.ItAre you saying that he had the frame epoxy-coated and then galvanised,
> is possible that it might react adversely with epoxy.I
> may be way off line here but a few years ago a friend
> and I had some motorcycle frames shotblasted and
> powder epoxy coated.My friend wanted a 'belt and
> braces' job so had his frames galvanised.All the
> powder epoxy on his bubbled and they had to be done
> again.
in that order?
If so, it's no wonder the epoxy coating was damaged, as the galvanising
process involves dipping the frame into a tank of molten zinc (I've seen
it done). Epoxy may be wonderful stuff, but I'm not sure it'll take much
in the way of exposure to temperatures of around 700 kelvin.
Dan
Hi All
One possible word of warning regarding galvanising.It
is possible that it might react adversely with epoxy.I
may be way off line here but a few years ago a friend
and I had some motorcycle frames shotblasted and
powder epoxy coated.My friend wanted a 'belt and
braces' job so had his frames galvanised.All the
powder epoxy on his bubbled and they had to be done
again.
Krs
Andy Airey
--- Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "fritzdfk"
<gaffcat@h...> wrote:
much
Hi Fritz,
Something that is often ignored today is galvanized
mild steel. It works very well, is usually a lot
cheaper than stainless if fabrication is involved, and
lasts for ages. Also, any blacksmith or metalworker
can weld it without specialist equipment. The thing
to remember is that the zinc coating is pretty thick,
so make sure to leave enough room for it (screw holes
etc)when making the mild steel component.
The galvanizing is not hugely expensive - especially
if you can get your components done as part of a
larger batch. (Here in Scotland a full batch
galvanizing job costs around 100 pounds).
It's also been said that galvanized mild steel is
tougher than the more brittle stainless, which can
fatigue over time and break with no warning.
Eventually (after many years) the galvanizing will
probably wear out, but as long as the components can
be taken off and cleaned up they can be re-galvanized
as and when.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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One possible word of warning regarding galvanising.It
is possible that it might react adversely with epoxy.I
may be way off line here but a few years ago a friend
and I had some motorcycle frames shotblasted and
powder epoxy coated.My friend wanted a 'belt and
braces' job so had his frames galvanised.All the
powder epoxy on his bubbled and they had to be done
again.
Krs
Andy Airey
--- Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "fritzdfk"
<gaffcat@h...> wrote:
> The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and Ican do it all
> myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I thinkabout how
much
> they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Anysuggestions?
Hi Fritz,
Something that is often ignored today is galvanized
mild steel. It works very well, is usually a lot
cheaper than stainless if fabrication is involved, and
lasts for ages. Also, any blacksmith or metalworker
can weld it without specialist equipment. The thing
to remember is that the zinc coating is pretty thick,
so make sure to leave enough room for it (screw holes
etc)when making the mild steel component.
The galvanizing is not hugely expensive - especially
if you can get your components done as part of a
larger batch. (Here in Scotland a full batch
galvanizing job costs around 100 pounds).
It's also been said that galvanized mild steel is
tougher than the more brittle stainless, which can
fatigue over time and break with no warning.
Eventually (after many years) the galvanizing will
probably wear out, but as long as the components can
be taken off and cleaned up they can be re-galvanized
as and when.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
---------------------------------
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To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "fritzdfk" <gaffcat@h...> wrote:
Something that is often ignored today is galvanized mild steel. It works very well, is usually a lot cheaper than stainless if fabrication is involved, and lasts for ages. Also, any blacksmith or metalworker can weld it without specialist equipment. The thing to remember is that the zinc coating is pretty thick, so make sure to leave enough room for it (screw holes etc)when making the mild steel component.
The galvanizing is not hugely expensive - especially if you can get your components done as part of a larger batch. (Here in Scotland a full batch galvanizing job costs around 100 pounds).
It's also been said that galvanized mild steel is tougher than the more brittle stainless, which can fatigue over time and break with no warning.
Eventually (after many years) the galvanizing will probably wear out, but as long as the components can be taken off and cleaned up they can be re-galvanized as and when.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and I can do it allmuch
> myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I think about how
> they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Any suggestions?Hi Fritz,
Something that is often ignored today is galvanized mild steel. It works very well, is usually a lot cheaper than stainless if fabrication is involved, and lasts for ages. Also, any blacksmith or metalworker can weld it without specialist equipment. The thing to remember is that the zinc coating is pretty thick, so make sure to leave enough room for it (screw holes etc)when making the mild steel component.
The galvanizing is not hugely expensive - especially if you can get your components done as part of a larger batch. (Here in Scotland a full batch galvanizing job costs around 100 pounds).
It's also been said that galvanized mild steel is tougher than the more brittle stainless, which can fatigue over time and break with no warning.
Eventually (after many years) the galvanizing will probably wear out, but as long as the components can be taken off and cleaned up they can be re-galvanized as and when.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "fritzdfk" <gaffcat@h...> wrote:
Stick to da plans :-)
Seriously, I'm not too clear on what is motivating you to change
things.Of course,I'm not there either to see full size what you are
dealing with and possible causes/sources for your concerns. Perhaps
you might wish to elaborate further in that regard?
I have often wondered about the many talented folk we have in this
group and the possibility of farming out small odd jobs for cost
plus transport. If I knew how to weld,and to weld stainless well,it
would be the sort of thing I could do for you once you sent a plans
copy or sketches of what you wanted out of stainless.Certainly the
stainless would be easier and cheaper for me to get here then up
your way and my time would be volunteered thus considerable saving
for you,even when considering transporation coats of getting the
finished work back up to you.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
> The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and I can do it allmuch
> myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I think about how
> they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Any suggestions?Fritz,
Stick to da plans :-)
Seriously, I'm not too clear on what is motivating you to change
things.Of course,I'm not there either to see full size what you are
dealing with and possible causes/sources for your concerns. Perhaps
you might wish to elaborate further in that regard?
I have often wondered about the many talented folk we have in this
group and the possibility of farming out small odd jobs for cost
plus transport. If I knew how to weld,and to weld stainless well,it
would be the sort of thing I could do for you once you sent a plans
copy or sketches of what you wanted out of stainless.Certainly the
stainless would be easier and cheaper for me to get here then up
your way and my time would be volunteered thus considerable saving
for you,even when considering transporation coats of getting the
finished work back up to you.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan
I have the rudders built and would like to hang them. They have
retractable blades,are about 8' tall and heavy. All marine fir
plywood. The upper rudder cheeks, are 5 1/4" thick, have extensions
to acommodate a 1" stainless steel bar run down through these
extensions and through gudgeon blocks bolted through the transom. I
have added scans of the drawings here:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger5/lst
The gudgeons are also plywood and if I go with them I would heavily
glass the outsides. Bolger suggests that the holes in the plywood for
the rod be bushed with stainless bushings. I have also been
considering delrin bushings in fiberglass tubes glued into the
plywood. Also bronze bushings. The plywood causes me some concern,
namely strength and long term reliability so I have also considered
having stainless fittings made. The plywood gudgeon blocks would be
replaced with a welded stainless bracket and the extensions on the
upper rudder housing would be cut off and replaced with a tube welded
to straps extending on the outsides of the upper rudder, more of a
traditional set-up. These metal pieces could also be made from plain
mild steel and then galvanised or seriously painted. The question
also arises thought about what kind of bushings to use.
The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and I can do it all
myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I think about how much
they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Any suggestions?
On a different topic. About a year ago I bought 6 full sheets (4' X
8') of 1/2" polycarbonate, scratch resistant, for around $350.00 a
sheet. Since I screwed up I have to buy approximately 1/2 sheet more.
The price for a full sheet is now $1000.00. This happened just a
month ago I guess.
fritz koschmann
retractable blades,are about 8' tall and heavy. All marine fir
plywood. The upper rudder cheeks, are 5 1/4" thick, have extensions
to acommodate a 1" stainless steel bar run down through these
extensions and through gudgeon blocks bolted through the transom. I
have added scans of the drawings here:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger5/lst
The gudgeons are also plywood and if I go with them I would heavily
glass the outsides. Bolger suggests that the holes in the plywood for
the rod be bushed with stainless bushings. I have also been
considering delrin bushings in fiberglass tubes glued into the
plywood. Also bronze bushings. The plywood causes me some concern,
namely strength and long term reliability so I have also considered
having stainless fittings made. The plywood gudgeon blocks would be
replaced with a welded stainless bracket and the extensions on the
upper rudder housing would be cut off and replaced with a tube welded
to straps extending on the outsides of the upper rudder, more of a
traditional set-up. These metal pieces could also be made from plain
mild steel and then galvanised or seriously painted. The question
also arises thought about what kind of bushings to use.
The all plywood set-up is by far the cheapest and I can do it all
myself. The stainless fittings scare me when I think about how much
they might cost, mild steel would be much less. Any suggestions?
On a different topic. About a year ago I bought 6 full sheets (4' X
8') of 1/2" polycarbonate, scratch resistant, for around $350.00 a
sheet. Since I screwed up I have to buy approximately 1/2 sheet more.
The price for a full sheet is now $1000.00. This happened just a
month ago I guess.
fritz koschmann