Re: Aluminum construction is good for most hard chines!!
In my home port of Kingston, Ontario we still have a working drydock
with a commercial boat-ship builder, Metal Craft Marine as tennant
business.
http://www.metalcraftmarine.com/html/showroom.html
This is all due to change, as the city wants to take back the
property, evict MCM, and build a large waterfront convention
facility, perhaps the future venue of Kingston Messabouts.
One of their older designs, appears to be inspired (copied) from
Phil's Diablo design. There are quite a few of these around
Kingston, most with a small cabin forward with sitting room and an
inside helm station. Nice boats for the Great Lakes.
I was going to try and arrange a tour at the last Kingston Messabout
and never got around to approaching them with the idea. I will this
year, and if they consent I'll post it here and everywhere.
They build cool stuff, and their scrap pieces alone make me drool.
There's a nice chunk of aluminum treadpalte screwed down over a soft
part of my houseboat Adagio's fore deck.
Bruce Hector
http://www.brucesboats.com
Where you'll find infor on the great, stupendous 2005 Kingston
Messabout. Yes, it's worth a 6000 mile drive! Or a flight from
Europe, Africa, or New Zealand. Make a vacation out of it, lots to
see and do in the area.
with a commercial boat-ship builder, Metal Craft Marine as tennant
business.
http://www.metalcraftmarine.com/html/showroom.html
This is all due to change, as the city wants to take back the
property, evict MCM, and build a large waterfront convention
facility, perhaps the future venue of Kingston Messabouts.
One of their older designs, appears to be inspired (copied) from
Phil's Diablo design. There are quite a few of these around
Kingston, most with a small cabin forward with sitting room and an
inside helm station. Nice boats for the Great Lakes.
I was going to try and arrange a tour at the last Kingston Messabout
and never got around to approaching them with the idea. I will this
year, and if they consent I'll post it here and everywhere.
They build cool stuff, and their scrap pieces alone make me drool.
There's a nice chunk of aluminum treadpalte screwed down over a soft
part of my houseboat Adagio's fore deck.
Bruce Hector
http://www.brucesboats.com
Where you'll find infor on the great, stupendous 2005 Kingston
Messabout. Yes, it's worth a 6000 mile drive! Or a flight from
Europe, Africa, or New Zealand. Make a vacation out of it, lots to
see and do in the area.
Mark:
I was an airframes mech in the service so here goes........
If you look at aircraft and heavy duty rental motorboat hulls, they
are usually done with aircraft rivets. This is a two person job but
goes quickly once you get the feel of it. A cheap pneumatic
chisel/hammer with special rivet tips and a 'bucking bar' for the
back side gets you going. Takes about one second per. As another
poster noted, you need the clips so you can drill and secure a whole
line of holes and keep them aligned, then rivet the whole line -bingo
bango. Sealant is needed at seams and joints like transom and bow.
Some commercial boats use pop rivets (Smokercraft?) Any waterproof
rivet is good for sail but some pop rivets WILL work loose over time
in well used motor boats.
The thinner metal used for this (0.032" to 0.050) is not self
supporting and needs ribs, stringers or shaping to keep it rigid
where flat. TIG welding
0.90" to 0.125" is better. It takes a pro to do 0.90 and distortion
is common. Even 1/8" shows a little distortion but you can
usually grind much of it off and leave plenty of material.
I am in the process of doing a Fisher-Selway Firecrest in 0.10 and
0.125 aluminum (I hear the boos from the Bolger fans and may get
tossed off this forum for my crime). Sail plans will be for a Gunter
yawl instead of the listed double lug.
She will have wood features
when done (removeable cabin roof, seats, sprit and mast, keel, etc)
and will look like any other boat once she is painted...or so we
hope. I picked this hull because it has good size, available in
several lengths and sterns, shallow draft and can be
done with five pieces (ie: two primary weld lines for the bottom and
wales plus the stern and foredeck)
PS: Mr Fisher notes that if you use 0.10 metal, it will only add a
few pounds over medium thickness ply with fiberglass. 0.125 is 1.75
lbs/sqft. I like it that you can work with material up to 6 feet wide
and 20 feet long and aren't stuck with 4x8s, lap seams,etc.
Rivet sources are Aircraft Spruce and check with Leading Edge
Airfoils (LEAF). My vote is to go the welded route.
Dave
I was an airframes mech in the service so here goes........
If you look at aircraft and heavy duty rental motorboat hulls, they
are usually done with aircraft rivets. This is a two person job but
goes quickly once you get the feel of it. A cheap pneumatic
chisel/hammer with special rivet tips and a 'bucking bar' for the
back side gets you going. Takes about one second per. As another
poster noted, you need the clips so you can drill and secure a whole
line of holes and keep them aligned, then rivet the whole line -bingo
bango. Sealant is needed at seams and joints like transom and bow.
Some commercial boats use pop rivets (Smokercraft?) Any waterproof
rivet is good for sail but some pop rivets WILL work loose over time
in well used motor boats.
The thinner metal used for this (0.032" to 0.050) is not self
supporting and needs ribs, stringers or shaping to keep it rigid
where flat. TIG welding
0.90" to 0.125" is better. It takes a pro to do 0.90 and distortion
is common. Even 1/8" shows a little distortion but you can
usually grind much of it off and leave plenty of material.
I am in the process of doing a Fisher-Selway Firecrest in 0.10 and
0.125 aluminum (I hear the boos from the Bolger fans and may get
tossed off this forum for my crime). Sail plans will be for a Gunter
yawl instead of the listed double lug.
She will have wood features
when done (removeable cabin roof, seats, sprit and mast, keel, etc)
and will look like any other boat once she is painted...or so we
hope. I picked this hull because it has good size, available in
several lengths and sterns, shallow draft and can be
done with five pieces (ie: two primary weld lines for the bottom and
wales plus the stern and foredeck)
PS: Mr Fisher notes that if you use 0.10 metal, it will only add a
few pounds over medium thickness ply with fiberglass. 0.125 is 1.75
lbs/sqft. I like it that you can work with material up to 6 feet wide
and 20 feet long and aren't stuck with 4x8s, lap seams,etc.
Rivet sources are Aircraft Spruce and check with Leading Edge
Airfoils (LEAF). My vote is to go the welded route.
Dave
>...you might want to check out the techniques described in JohnThere's a chapter describing several cheap and simple (as these things can
>Lechter's "Self-Steering for Sailing Craft." He uses surgical
>tubing instead of shock cord and features lines to the
>sheets to detect wind gusts...
be anyway) similar rigs in Dave Gerr's "The Nature of Boats: insights and
esoterica for the nautically obsessed." The book is in print and full of
fascinating details on the engineering and science behind boats. He even
comes out in favor of wood in his building materials section.
I was given my copy by a friend who was baffled by being confronted with a
table, chart or formula every time he tried to look up a simple answer. It
may turn out to be an expensive 'gift' because now I'm expected to decipher
the techy stuff and tell him minimum planing speed, required horsepower,
etc. for whatever boat project he's working on.
-Brent
--
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A bungee can be stretched over a jam cleat on the tiller when your
attention is needed elsewhere. Allows instant override. That's the
simplest system I could come up with. The cleat should be somewhat
foreward of the bungee attachment points. Tension as needed.
attention is needed elsewhere. Allows instant override. That's the
simplest system I could come up with. The cleat should be somewhat
foreward of the bungee attachment points. Tension as needed.
For small boats riveting is best -- if you've got the knack and temperament
for installing thousands of them. The trouble with welding is that you've
got to use about 1/8" thick aluminum, so you end up with a heavy boat (but
bulletproof!), with rivets you can use really thin metal and have a light
boat. :o)
for installing thousands of them. The trouble with welding is that you've
got to use about 1/8" thick aluminum, so you end up with a heavy boat (but
bulletproof!), with rivets you can use really thin metal and have a light
boat. :o)
On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:49:06 -0000, Rust Check Bruce wrote:
> ...
> All in all, welding is best. And when you consider the cost of the
> klecos and special tools, a cheap MIG from Harbor Freight, etc. might
> be a good buy. As well as a chance to learn and practice a new skill.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
One must have a heart of stone to read the death of Little Nell by
Dickens without laughing. <Oscar Wilde>
Welding thin aluminum can be done. I think the key is
TIG and being an expert. I can TIG weld but I'm not an
expert or even proficient.
A friend of mine can weld aluminum beer cans end to
end using TIG. He's usually good for welding four out
of a six pack, if you get to him early in the morning.
When building boats from aluminum and welding aluminum
boats you really want to pay attention to the alloy of
the plate and the alloy of the rod. If they don't
match you can be making a floating battery.
Phil Smith
TIG and being an expert. I can TIG weld but I'm not an
expert or even proficient.
A friend of mine can weld aluminum beer cans end to
end using TIG. He's usually good for welding four out
of a six pack, if you get to him early in the morning.
When building boats from aluminum and welding aluminum
boats you really want to pay attention to the alloy of
the plate and the alloy of the rod. If they don't
match you can be making a floating battery.
Phil Smith
You might try the "rebuiltaluminumboat" yahoo group. There have been
extensive discussions there on rivits and riviting techniques and
tools. Another factor to consider if deciding between riviting and
welding aluminum is that there is a minimum thickness of aluminum that
can be welded into a fair boat. Welding 16 gauge aluminum can be done
but is very tedious (read melt down) and can result in major
distortion. I've done it successfully for minor repair work but would
never use such thin aluminum for an all welded boat. I am planning to
weld a tender soon w/ 0.090" aluminum and then a somewhat larger boat w/
0.125" aluminum. I personally would not consider using stock thinner
than 0.090" for an all welded boat. 0.090" is nearly 50% heavier than
0.0625", which affects design and application considerations. Some
factory made rivited boats use stock as thin as 0.042". Hope this helps.
pvanderwaart wrote:
extensive discussions there on rivits and riviting techniques and
tools. Another factor to consider if deciding between riviting and
welding aluminum is that there is a minimum thickness of aluminum that
can be welded into a fair boat. Welding 16 gauge aluminum can be done
but is very tedious (read melt down) and can result in major
distortion. I've done it successfully for minor repair work but would
never use such thin aluminum for an all welded boat. I am planning to
weld a tender soon w/ 0.090" aluminum and then a somewhat larger boat w/
0.125" aluminum. I personally would not consider using stock thinner
than 0.090" for an all welded boat. 0.090" is nearly 50% heavier than
0.0625", which affects design and application considerations. Some
factory made rivited boats use stock as thin as 0.042". Hope this helps.
pvanderwaart wrote:
>
> > Can be done. Any of the instant boat types can be built of al.
>
> Find one of the Grumman Al canoes, and take a close look. Aside from
> the forming of the al panel into a curve, the rest of the
> construction is straight forward, and uses most stock shapes.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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You might like to look through this. Chris Heinz, noted aircraft
designer of the Zenair series wrote it, and he claims the Texron Avex
blind rivet as waterproof. I believe they use the Avex rivets on
their aluminum floats, so I guess they're waterproof. Don't want our
airplane sinking at the dock overnight now, do we?
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/metal/Riveted%
20Joints-Part%202%20of%202.html
Bruce Hector
Who dreams of building the Zenaor CH 701 someday.
http://www.zenithair.com/
And after a long Oporto session with "Zee Dirty Pierre" even believes
he can land one on his imaginary aircraft carrier. The takeoff being
soewhat easier.
http://www.brucesboats.com/page3.html
designer of the Zenair series wrote it, and he claims the Texron Avex
blind rivet as waterproof. I believe they use the Avex rivets on
their aluminum floats, so I guess they're waterproof. Don't want our
airplane sinking at the dock overnight now, do we?
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/metal/Riveted%
20Joints-Part%202%20of%202.html
Bruce Hector
Who dreams of building the Zenaor CH 701 someday.
http://www.zenithair.com/
And after a long Oporto session with "Zee Dirty Pierre" even believes
he can land one on his imaginary aircraft carrier. The takeoff being
soewhat easier.
http://www.brucesboats.com/page3.html
Thank you for the tip.
I will keep my eyes open for a Grumman Aluminum Canoe and make a study
of it.
====================
pvanderwaart wrote:
I will keep my eyes open for a Grumman Aluminum Canoe and make a study
of it.
====================
pvanderwaart wrote:
>
>
>>Can be done. Any of the instant boat types can be built of al.
>>
>>
>
>Find one of the Grumman Al canoes, and take a close look. Aside from
>the forming of the al panel into a curve, the rest of the
>construction is straight forward, and uses most stock shapes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
> Can be done. Any of the instant boat types can be built of al.Find one of the Grumman Al canoes, and take a close look. Aside from
the forming of the al panel into a curve, the rest of the
construction is straight forward, and uses most stock shapes.
Mr. Bruce Hector
Thank you for your advice and the opportunity to benefit from your life
experience.
Respectfully,
Mark Mirski
------------------------------------------
Bruce Hector wrote:
Thank you for your advice and the opportunity to benefit from your life
experience.
Respectfully,
Mark Mirski
------------------------------------------
Bruce Hector wrote:
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark mirski <anshin@w...> wrote: "how
>to build an aluminum boat using "rivets"or any other mechanical
>aluminum construction techniques."
>
>Can be done. Any of the instant boat types can be built of al.
>
>First, get blind rivets, and dozens od "klecos", to hold and fasten
>them. If you serch through some aluminum homebuilt aircraft sites
>you'll find them. Aircraft Spruce & Speciallty sells them, or knows
>who does.
>
>Ordinary pop rivets are NOT waterproof, and will leak like a psata
>strainer. Something not to desirerable in boats.
>
>Other mechanicals. like screws, would also leak, and cause
>turbulence, as well as hundreds of sharp screw tips pointing up or
>down. Ouch.
>
>All in all, welding is best. And when you consider the cost of the
>klecos and special tools, a cheap MIG from Harbor Freight, etc. might
>be a good buy. As well as a chance to learn and practice a new skill.
>
>Bruce Hector
>Who can burn holes in metal as well as anyone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark mirski <anshin@w...> wrote: "how
to build an aluminum boat using "rivets"or any other mechanical
aluminum construction techniques."
Can be done. Any of the instant boat types can be built of al.
First, get blind rivets, and dozens od "klecos", to hold and fasten
them. If you serch through some aluminum homebuilt aircraft sites
you'll find them. Aircraft Spruce & Speciallty sells them, or knows
who does.
Ordinary pop rivets are NOT waterproof, and will leak like a psata
strainer. Something not to desirerable in boats.
Other mechanicals. like screws, would also leak, and cause
turbulence, as well as hundreds of sharp screw tips pointing up or
down. Ouch.
All in all, welding is best. And when you consider the cost of the
klecos and special tools, a cheap MIG from Harbor Freight, etc. might
be a good buy. As well as a chance to learn and practice a new skill.
Bruce Hector
Who can burn holes in metal as well as anyone.
to build an aluminum boat using "rivets"or any other mechanical
aluminum construction techniques."
Can be done. Any of the instant boat types can be built of al.
First, get blind rivets, and dozens od "klecos", to hold and fasten
them. If you serch through some aluminum homebuilt aircraft sites
you'll find them. Aircraft Spruce & Speciallty sells them, or knows
who does.
Ordinary pop rivets are NOT waterproof, and will leak like a psata
strainer. Something not to desirerable in boats.
Other mechanicals. like screws, would also leak, and cause
turbulence, as well as hundreds of sharp screw tips pointing up or
down. Ouch.
All in all, welding is best. And when you consider the cost of the
klecos and special tools, a cheap MIG from Harbor Freight, etc. might
be a good buy. As well as a chance to learn and practice a new skill.
Bruce Hector
Who can burn holes in metal as well as anyone.
Craig, I forgot to add: It seems to me I also need a 2part downhaul at
the gooseneck. Looking at the sail, and trying to imagine the effect
of pulling corners, looks to me as if pulling down the gooseneck would
also help. I tried on board with a single rope, but it was too hard.
What do you think?
DonB
Well, yes, the less the gooseneck (or boom jaws) is/are able to move, the
easier it will be to tension the sail properly. It all depends on having
the tack stay in place. That's why many big gaff yachts had
mechanically-fixed goosenecks.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the gooseneck. Looking at the sail, and trying to imagine the effect
of pulling corners, looks to me as if pulling down the gooseneck would
also help. I tried on board with a single rope, but it was too hard.
What do you think?
DonB
Well, yes, the less the gooseneck (or boom jaws) is/are able to move, the
easier it will be to tension the sail properly. It all depends on having
the tack stay in place. That's why many big gaff yachts had
mechanically-fixed goosenecks.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Greetings
I was wondering if anyone might be able to direct me to instruction and
literature as to how to build an aluminum boat using "rivets"or any
other mechanical aluminum construction techniques.
.
When I was a boy I had a 12' aluminum, rivet constructed boat that stood
up well to hard use and neglect.
I would think that this building technique would be adaptable to many of
the smaller Bolger designs.
I would some day like to have a TIG or MIG welding system but I may
never be able to afford such a set up.
Lately this list has had many discussions as to plywood and MDO quality
concerns. I've been thinking that
aluminum, non welding construction techniques might be a worthwhile
alternative if guidance and instruction would be available.
Any suggestions out there?
Respectfully,
Mark Mirski
I was wondering if anyone might be able to direct me to instruction and
literature as to how to build an aluminum boat using "rivets"or any
other mechanical aluminum construction techniques.
.
When I was a boy I had a 12' aluminum, rivet constructed boat that stood
up well to hard use and neglect.
I would think that this building technique would be adaptable to many of
the smaller Bolger designs.
I would some day like to have a TIG or MIG welding system but I may
never be able to afford such a set up.
Lately this list has had many discussions as to plywood and MDO quality
concerns. I've been thinking that
aluminum, non welding construction techniques might be a worthwhile
alternative if guidance and instruction would be available.
Any suggestions out there?
Respectfully,
Mark Mirski
>
>
>
>
No, the tiller stays where you put it -- think "friction lock" -- but it
should keep the rudder from going hard over when backing.
I don't know if the web site is still up, but "Gray Cat," a really beautiful
Chebacco, has a sort of sawtooth rack with a blade on the bottom of the
tiller -- lift to steer, let down to have the tiller stay put.
Once you get the other aspects tamed, you might want to check out the
techniques described in John Lechter's "Self-Steering for Sailing Craft."
He uses surgical tubing instead of shock cord and features lines to the
sheets to detect wind gusts (as one of his techniques). He also describes
techniques for determining the transfer function of your boat on various
points of sail. It's out of print, but Alibris found nine copies.
http://www.alibris.com/
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
should keep the rudder from going hard over when backing.
I don't know if the web site is still up, but "Gray Cat," a really beautiful
Chebacco, has a sort of sawtooth rack with a blade on the bottom of the
tiller -- lift to steer, let down to have the tiller stay put.
Once you get the other aspects tamed, you might want to check out the
techniques described in John Lechter's "Self-Steering for Sailing Craft."
He uses surgical tubing instead of shock cord and features lines to the
sheets to detect wind gusts (as one of his techniques). He also describes
techniques for determining the transfer function of your boat on various
points of sail. It's out of print, but Alibris found nine copies.
http://www.alibris.com/
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "dbaldnz" <oink@...>
> It looks to work for short self-steering times but does it centre the
> tiller again after it runs out a little? When I'm backing out of my
> space under outboard,as soon as we move, the tiller slams to one side
> and stays there with me in the bow.
Craig, I forgot to add: It seems to me I also need a 2part downhaul at
the gooseneck. Looking at the sail, and trying to imagine the effect
of pulling corners, looks to me as if pulling down the gooseneck would
also help. I tried on board with a single rope, but it was too hard.
What do you think?
DonB
the gooseneck. Looking at the sail, and trying to imagine the effect
of pulling corners, looks to me as if pulling down the gooseneck would
also help. I tried on board with a single rope, but it was too hard.
What do you think?
DonB
Thanks very much for the link Roger.
It looks to work for short self-steering times but does it centre the
tiller again after it runs out a little? When I'm backing out of my
space under outboard,as soon as we move, the tiller slams to one side
and stays there with me in the bow. I was thinking, a length of shock
cord from side to side, which could be slipped through the tiller when
needed. It may keep the tiller more or less centred, yet allow me
enough control in an instant when rushing back to avoid an upcoming
moored 40ft foiler! Could experiment with the tension.
DonB
It looks to work for short self-steering times but does it centre the
tiller again after it runs out a little? When I'm backing out of my
space under outboard,as soon as we move, the tiller slams to one side
and stays there with me in the bow. I was thinking, a length of shock
cord from side to side, which could be slipped through the tiller when
needed. It may keep the tiller more or less centred, yet allow me
enough control in an instant when rushing back to avoid an upcoming
moored 40ft foiler! Could experiment with the tension.
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@e...> wrote:
> I haven't used it yet, but I bought a Davis "Tiller Tamer" for a few
bucks
> which I hope will take care of this. It's a kind of rope clutch which
> mounts on the tiller and lets a line run freely until clutched. The
line
> runs athwartships from either rail.
>http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=17289
>
> Sounds like fun.
>
> Roger
Thanks Craig. I had suspected what you just said is the main answer,
after looking at your website I might say!
Yes, I will wring some more out of them as you suggest. Might as well
go for broke, because I'm sure the top of the mast is going break
sooner rather than later. It's the original Micro mast, which I built
hollowed, then lightened even more later, and you can see a 'healthy'
bend in the main photo at the top third. This is why I'm sailing with
motor in place.
Cheers,
DonB
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
after looking at your website I might say!
Yes, I will wring some more out of them as you suggest. Might as well
go for broke, because I'm sure the top of the mast is going break
sooner rather than later. It's the original Micro mast, which I built
hollowed, then lightened even more later, and you can see a 'healthy'
bend in the main photo at the top third. This is why I'm sailing with
motor in place.
Cheers,
DonB
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, craig o'donnell <dadadata@f...> wrote:
> Rig-
> The jury for me is still out on this. The sails were set up with some
> lash-ups and no knowlege of the gaff rig, tensions etc on my part. I
> can see that quite a few tweaks are required.
>
> Definitely need more peak halyard, judging from the pix... if
there's any
> 'girt' in the sail it should proceed from tack to peak (ie approximately
> parallel with yard). Not at 90-dgrees to the yard.
>
> It might be a case of slightly more throat and a lot more peak halyard.
> Hard to say without actually a-pullin on ye olde ropes.
>
> My Cheap Pages has a single-halyard for a gaff sail as described by
Conor
> O'Brien and used in various palces at various times (Commodore Munroe,
> Norfolk Wherries in the UK) where the arrangement gives a 2:1
purchase on
> the throat and 1:1 on the peak.
>
> I have tried this on a small sail and it has worked very well. Downside,
> less tweakability. But with the modern stiff dacron sailcloth I'm
not sure
> tweakability is all that necessary.
> --
> Craig O'Donnell
> Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
> <http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
> The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
> The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
> Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
> American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
> Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
> _________________________________
>
> -- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
> -- Macintosh kinda guy
> Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
> _________________________________
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I haven't used it yet, but I bought a Davis "Tiller Tamer" for a few bucks
which I hope will take care of this. It's a kind of rope clutch which
mounts on the tiller and lets a line run freely until clutched. The line
runs athwartships from either rail.
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=17289
Sounds like fun.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
which I hope will take care of this. It's a kind of rope clutch which
mounts on the tiller and lets a line run freely until clutched. The line
runs athwartships from either rail.
http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=17289
Sounds like fun.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://derbyrm.mystarband.net/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "dbaldnz" <oink@...>
>
<snip>
> The tiller kept putting itself hard over when unattended,
> so the whole thing was a bit untidy, luckily unseen
> because this was early in the morning! And of course the light boat
> was being pushed about by the light random winds in this area. Perhaps
> some sort of elastic restraint to centre the tiller would be helpful.
> Similarly, picking up the mooring which means leaving the motor and
> going forward. But these problems would not exist if sailing with a
> crew.
<snip>
Rig-
The jury for me is still out on this. The sails were set up with some
lash-ups and no knowlege of the gaff rig, tensions etc on my part. I
can see that quite a few tweaks are required.
Definitely need more peak halyard, judging from the pix... if there's any
'girt' in the sail it should proceed from tack to peak (ie approximately
parallel with yard). Not at 90-dgrees to the yard.
It might be a case of slightly more throat and a lot more peak halyard.
Hard to say without actually a-pullin on ye olde ropes.
My Cheap Pages has a single-halyard for a gaff sail as described by Conor
O'Brien and used in various palces at various times (Commodore Munroe,
Norfolk Wherries in the UK) where the arrangement gives a 2:1 purchase on
the throat and 1:1 on the peak.
I have tried this on a small sail and it has worked very well. Downside,
less tweakability. But with the modern stiff dacron sailcloth I'm not sure
tweakability is all that necessary.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The jury for me is still out on this. The sails were set up with some
lash-ups and no knowlege of the gaff rig, tensions etc on my part. I
can see that quite a few tweaks are required.
Definitely need more peak halyard, judging from the pix... if there's any
'girt' in the sail it should proceed from tack to peak (ie approximately
parallel with yard). Not at 90-dgrees to the yard.
It might be a case of slightly more throat and a lot more peak halyard.
Hard to say without actually a-pullin on ye olde ropes.
My Cheap Pages has a single-halyard for a gaff sail as described by Conor
O'Brien and used in various palces at various times (Commodore Munroe,
Norfolk Wherries in the UK) where the arrangement gives a 2:1 purchase on
the throat and 1:1 on the peak.
I have tried this on a small sail and it has worked very well. Downside,
less tweakability. But with the modern stiff dacron sailcloth I'm not sure
tweakability is all that necessary.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
These are my impressions after 3 hours of sailing in a 5-12knot
offshore breeze with no sea apart from powerboat wakes.
Navigator cabin concept
plus- very different to sitting on an open deck, but feeling very
secure with magnificent all-around vision. Even without bench squabs,
it was very comfortable, and easy to see the rig and surroundings
sitting to windward or leeward. With the large hatch fully open, along
with the hinged front window, it was very pleasant (autumn day, sunny
23degreesC)
minus- getting underway and retrieving the mooring singlehanded.
because of the wind direction and boats moored close, plus mangroves,
I had to gently back out under power, which involved some backwards
and forwards through the cabin and up the hatch to let go the mooring
rope etc etc. The tiller kept putting itself hard over when
unattended, so the whole thing was a bit untidy, luckily unseen
because this was early in the morning! And of course the light boat
was being pushed about by the light random winds in this area. Perhaps
some sort of elastic restraint to centre the tiller would be helpful.
Similarly, picking up the mooring which means leaving the motor and
going forward. But these problems would not exist if sailing with a
crew. Another thought, what about a built out rim to the deck,
allowing quick outside passage?
But overall, the glass cabin concept, as also the Birdwatcher, scores
very highly with me. Maybe even more so in less pleasant conditions,
or sailing with young kids. I suspect women who would hate sitting in
an exposed cockpit would find the Navigator very acceptable. I have
one affer already!
Rig-
The jury for me is still out on this. The sails were set up with some
lash-ups and no knowlege of the gaff rig, tensions etc on my part. I
can see that quite a few tweaks are required. I forgot to rig the
mizzen sheet, and no amount of tension seemed to make any difference
when we turned into the wind! A trip out onto the bumkin solved that,
but it shows how disorganised I really was. The batten sheetlets
certainly are sensitive, and changing the tension seemed to be often
required. Everything was so new, I have no real handle on their
effectiveness yet. I have not set up the Bolger reefing system, and I
may fit normal slab reefing. The mess of lines when dropping the rig
and snugging away has not been much of a problem. Mostly they seem to
get tucked away in the mainsail roll. We gybed 4 or 5 times, and there
were no problems at all. Nothing hung up, and the whole rig took care
of itself.
Sailing-
She sailed extremely well in the conditions, not what I expected at
all. My memory of the standard Micro leg-o-mutton was that it rather
'stuck' in these conditions. Not so with the larger battened rig. She
responded really well to the shifty breeze, and tacking up the
narrowing inlet to my mooring she always made good ground. The shore
features were well to the rear when going about next time. Not a
missed tack in difficult condtions, though she does not tack quickly .
There was light weather helm throughout, even when heeling in gusts.
The classicly desirable helm situation. I had a go at self-steering,
manipulating the mizzen etc, but I had the feeling she wanted a
master, and will not self steer! So, very pleased with sailing ability
in lighter winds.
Hull-
You can see from the pictures, an almost total lack of wake. She slips
through the water with hardly a sound, even when crossing some
powerboat wakes. A stronger breeze and seas will be interesting, but I
expect she will aquit herself quite well. She has an extra 400lb of
epoxy/steel punchings in a shallow layer in the strip of floor between
the bunks, with a thin concrete mesh topping.
The other evening at dusk, I went down to sit and watch how she moved
from rest on the bottom to floating. It was a beautiful evening, only
birds, and fish leaping on the incoming tide. Oink slowly got to her
feet, without drama as I held my breath. Then a lap, lap, plick, plock
glup........horified, until my antennae said the disturbance was not
coming from my treasured round bow, but the upcurved flat bottom under
the stern of a Farrier tri on a stern line. The 1" ripples were
setting up quite a symphony. When sailing Oink, there was almost no
sound from the bow, in contrast to her previous flattie, sailing
upright into small waves. I would urge anyone building a Bolger
flattie to incorporate the fillet bow he seems to have now for most of
these types. A small amount of extra work when building would be well
worthwhile in my opinion.
And not to forget the pleasure/pride factor as Bruce mentions. We
encountered several canoes, a lady on a windsurfer and power boats,
and they all had smiles on their faces, questions and compliments.
Normal unhungup people love Bolger character boats!
DonB
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/
offshore breeze with no sea apart from powerboat wakes.
Navigator cabin concept
plus- very different to sitting on an open deck, but feeling very
secure with magnificent all-around vision. Even without bench squabs,
it was very comfortable, and easy to see the rig and surroundings
sitting to windward or leeward. With the large hatch fully open, along
with the hinged front window, it was very pleasant (autumn day, sunny
23degreesC)
minus- getting underway and retrieving the mooring singlehanded.
because of the wind direction and boats moored close, plus mangroves,
I had to gently back out under power, which involved some backwards
and forwards through the cabin and up the hatch to let go the mooring
rope etc etc. The tiller kept putting itself hard over when
unattended, so the whole thing was a bit untidy, luckily unseen
because this was early in the morning! And of course the light boat
was being pushed about by the light random winds in this area. Perhaps
some sort of elastic restraint to centre the tiller would be helpful.
Similarly, picking up the mooring which means leaving the motor and
going forward. But these problems would not exist if sailing with a
crew. Another thought, what about a built out rim to the deck,
allowing quick outside passage?
But overall, the glass cabin concept, as also the Birdwatcher, scores
very highly with me. Maybe even more so in less pleasant conditions,
or sailing with young kids. I suspect women who would hate sitting in
an exposed cockpit would find the Navigator very acceptable. I have
one affer already!
Rig-
The jury for me is still out on this. The sails were set up with some
lash-ups and no knowlege of the gaff rig, tensions etc on my part. I
can see that quite a few tweaks are required. I forgot to rig the
mizzen sheet, and no amount of tension seemed to make any difference
when we turned into the wind! A trip out onto the bumkin solved that,
but it shows how disorganised I really was. The batten sheetlets
certainly are sensitive, and changing the tension seemed to be often
required. Everything was so new, I have no real handle on their
effectiveness yet. I have not set up the Bolger reefing system, and I
may fit normal slab reefing. The mess of lines when dropping the rig
and snugging away has not been much of a problem. Mostly they seem to
get tucked away in the mainsail roll. We gybed 4 or 5 times, and there
were no problems at all. Nothing hung up, and the whole rig took care
of itself.
Sailing-
She sailed extremely well in the conditions, not what I expected at
all. My memory of the standard Micro leg-o-mutton was that it rather
'stuck' in these conditions. Not so with the larger battened rig. She
responded really well to the shifty breeze, and tacking up the
narrowing inlet to my mooring she always made good ground. The shore
features were well to the rear when going about next time. Not a
missed tack in difficult condtions, though she does not tack quickly .
There was light weather helm throughout, even when heeling in gusts.
The classicly desirable helm situation. I had a go at self-steering,
manipulating the mizzen etc, but I had the feeling she wanted a
master, and will not self steer! So, very pleased with sailing ability
in lighter winds.
Hull-
You can see from the pictures, an almost total lack of wake. She slips
through the water with hardly a sound, even when crossing some
powerboat wakes. A stronger breeze and seas will be interesting, but I
expect she will aquit herself quite well. She has an extra 400lb of
epoxy/steel punchings in a shallow layer in the strip of floor between
the bunks, with a thin concrete mesh topping.
The other evening at dusk, I went down to sit and watch how she moved
from rest on the bottom to floating. It was a beautiful evening, only
birds, and fish leaping on the incoming tide. Oink slowly got to her
feet, without drama as I held my breath. Then a lap, lap, plick, plock
glup........horified, until my antennae said the disturbance was not
coming from my treasured round bow, but the upcurved flat bottom under
the stern of a Farrier tri on a stern line. The 1" ripples were
setting up quite a symphony. When sailing Oink, there was almost no
sound from the bow, in contrast to her previous flattie, sailing
upright into small waves. I would urge anyone building a Bolger
flattie to incorporate the fillet bow he seems to have now for most of
these types. A small amount of extra work when building would be well
worthwhile in my opinion.
And not to forget the pleasure/pride factor as Bruce mentions. We
encountered several canoes, a lady on a windsurfer and power boats,
and they all had smiles on their faces, questions and compliments.
Normal unhungup people love Bolger character boats!
DonB
http://oink.kiwiwebhost.biz/