Re: [bolger] Re: Capsize
The idea is to avoid the splinters. Just to make the
boat smell good.
Gene T.
--- Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
boat smell good.
Gene T.
--- Will Samson <willsamson@...> wrote:
>http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gene T.
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Capsize
>
>
> This is silly but is something like Olive Oil as
> offensive as Mobil1?
>
> Gene T.
>
> Not silly at all Gene. Personally I'd go for the
> extra virgin variety emulsified with a soupcon of
> balsamic vinegar just to give it that little bit of
> extra bite. Drizzle the mixture on the troubled
> waters and garnish with torn (not cut) basil leaves
> and shavings of parmesan (or peccorino if you prefer
> a nuttier flavour). Splinters of fir or ocume are
> optional.
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
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> Children's Research Hospital's
> 'Thanks & Giving.'
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>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene T.
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Capsize
This is silly but is something like Olive Oil as
offensive as Mobil1?
Gene T.
Not silly at all Gene. Personally I'd go for the extra virgin variety emulsified with a soupcon of balsamic vinegar just to give it that little bit of extra bite. Drizzle the mixture on the troubled waters and garnish with torn (not cut) basil leaves and shavings of parmesan (or peccorino if you prefer a nuttier flavour). Splinters of fir or ocume are optional.
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene T.
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Capsize
This is silly but is something like Olive Oil as
offensive as Mobil1?
Gene T.
--- John Cupp <john@...> wrote:
>
>
> I have sailed that area around the Golden Gate and
> commercial fished
> from San Francisco for most of the years I was
> growing up. Before
> environmentalism ( notice any type of PC behavior
> has Mental added
> in) I was in the Sea Scouts at the Palo Alto Yacht
> Harbor down the
> bay. We were shown how to beach a boat in relative
> safety in heavy
> breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some
> quart bottles of
> 5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an
> emergency you would
> throw an open can ahead and behind you. Now they
> use bottles but
> this was done in the 1960's It flattens out all the
> breaking waves
> and you get none of the bubbling churning surf,
> reducing the wave
> height in the process.
>
> It is apparent that the people on that boat were
> asleep at the helm
> or doing things unmentionable on this forum or they
> would have seen
> their desperate situation. Maybe they were just
> trying to get close
> enough to take pictures with a camera without the
> use of a telephoto
> lens. I think they were crazy in that area.. Out a
> little further
> and to the north of that area is a place called the
> potato patch
> shoals and they are the most dangerous waters next
> to the Columbia
> Bar on the West coast of the US. Not to mention
> that every year
> there are Great White Shark attacks at the very
> beach those pictures
> were taken. Even inside the Gate there are shark
> attacks often. It
> is an amazing set of pictures showing what not to
> do. In a
> situation where you need to get on shore you come
> straight in and
> not at any angle to the beach. If you have a keel
> boat you try to
> ride the wave height in until you finally hit bottom
> but using an
> anchor for the boat and riding in on a rubber boat
> would be ten
> times better than what they did. Hind sight is
> always twenty,
> twenty but risking your life calls for oil.
>
> I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go
> through a surf
> washed beach without being attacked by the surfers
> themselves who
> would be mad as hell you ruined their surfing. But
> remember my
> advice it really can save your life and make
> beaching a calm event
> even when big waves are causing lots of turbulence
> in the water. At
> least four cans of oil might be needed and that
> should give you a
> window of about fifteen minutes to get on shore.
> You can use as
> high as twenty weight but that tends to pool up and
> not spread
> across the water surface as well. Remember I
> learned this trick in
> the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds,
> otters or clams
> just
> save a few lives. So if you are faced with running
> an inlet with
> huge breaking waves and your life is in the balance,
> try it! I have
> seen it work very well.
>
> John Cupp
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
> <John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> > What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of
> life.
> >
> > The boat appears to be about 25 feet long with a
> fin keel. It was
> overtaken by a breaking wave which appears to be
> about 15 feet
> high. The result is an illustration of a wave
> induced broach--the
> boat pitches forward; bow digs in; wave action lifts
> the stern and
> the boat capsizes. Note that around picture 7 and 8
> that the hull
> has accelerated and the sails are aback.
> >
> > The hull self righted and appears to be floating
> on an even keel,
> broadside to the waves. It is rolled again and,
> again it rights
> itself, though subsequent pictures show it is down
> by the stern.
> The cockpit is completely flooded and I would guess
> that the open
> companionway allowed the cabin to flood as well.
> (perhaps the
> rudder was torn off during the second capsize,
> opening up the back
> of the hull?)
> >
> > As Bolger has written, no boat is immune to
> capsize; if you doubt
> it, put a model boat in the surf at the beach or
> watch The Perfect
> Storm. A boat can be designed to recover from a 180
> degree capsize
> (as this one did) and to be a corked bottle with a
> lot of bouyancy
> (assuming the "corked bottle" doesn't break).
> >
> > Running with a large breaking wave is an
> invitation to disaster.
> I would expect a Micro or a Micro Navigator would
> broach and capsize
> under a 15 foot breaking wave. Assuming it held
> together and
> assuming the hatches were closed and secured, I
> would expect it to
> remain afloat, though it would almost certainly be
> dismasted.
> >
> > Stay away from breaking waves!
> >
> > John T
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bruce Hallman
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:03 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Capsize
> >
> >
> >http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htm
> >
> > Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
> > just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
> > in this surf. I notice how the sinking was
> caused
> > by water pouring into the cockpit and then the
> cabin,
> > and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
> >
> > It also makes me more concious of sailing with
> > the cabin hatch closed versus open.
> >
> > I also suspect that the force of the wave would
> > have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
> >
> > How would have the full length fin keel have
> changed
> > the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
> > the force of the wave?
> >
> > Which Bolger boats would have survived a
> > similar experience, and how?
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead
> horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no
> 'Ed, thanks,
> Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your
> posts, and snip
> away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
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> >
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> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
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> >
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> the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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> -----------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 -
> Release Date:
> 4/1/2005
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude
> Children's Research Hospital's
> 'Thanks & Giving.'
>
http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Was it not a circumnavigation of a bay on the SouthI wouldn't bet my life that my memory is correct,
> Side of Australia that it was intended for?
>
> Gene T.
but just short of that degree of certainty, I recall in a
letter from Phil Bolger that circumnavigating the
continent of Austrailia was the original commission.
Was it not a circumnavigation of a bay on the South
Side of Australia that it was intended for?
Gene T.
--- Bruce Fountain
<fountain.bruce@...> wrote:
Side of Australia that it was intended for?
Gene T.
--- Bruce Fountain
<fountain.bruce@...> wrote:
>
>
> Bruce Hallman wrote:
> > I don't intend to take my Micro surfing, but the
> source of my
> > curiousity is Phil Bolger's commission of the
> Micro Navigator
> > was to design a boat suitable for circumnavigating
> Austrailia.
> > I suspect it is possible in the Roaring Fourties
> to encounter
> > very heavy seas. Probably not breaking upon
> shoals, but
> > still some big stuff.
>
This is silly but is something like Olive Oil as
offensive as Mobil1?
Gene T.
--- John Cupp <john@...> wrote:
offensive as Mobil1?
Gene T.
--- John Cupp <john@...> wrote:
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have sailed that area around the Golden Gate and
> commercial fished
> from San Francisco for most of the years I was
> growing up. Before
> environmentalism ( notice any type of PC behavior
> has Mental added
> in) I was in the Sea Scouts at the Palo Alto Yacht
> Harbor down the
> bay. We were shown how to beach a boat in relative
> safety in heavy
> breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some
> quart bottles of
> 5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an
> emergency you would
> throw an open can ahead and behind you. Now they
> use bottles but
> this was done in the 1960's It flattens out all the
> breaking waves
> and you get none of the bubbling churning surf,
> reducing the wave
> height in the process.
>
> It is apparent that the people on that boat were
> asleep at the helm
> or doing things unmentionable on this forum or they
> would have seen
> their desperate situation. Maybe they were just
> trying to get close
> enough to take pictures with a camera without the
> use of a telephoto
> lens. I think they were crazy in that area.. Out a
> little further
> and to the north of that area is a place called the
> potato patch
> shoals and they are the most dangerous waters next
> to the Columbia
> Bar on the West coast of the US. Not to mention
> that every year
> there are Great White Shark attacks at the very
> beach those pictures
> were taken. Even inside the Gate there are shark
> attacks often. It
> is an amazing set of pictures showing what not to
> do. In a
> situation where you need to get on shore you come
> straight in and
> not at any angle to the beach. If you have a keel
> boat you try to
> ride the wave height in until you finally hit bottom
> but using an
> anchor for the boat and riding in on a rubber boat
> would be ten
> times better than what they did. Hind sight is
> always twenty,
> twenty but risking your life calls for oil.
>
> I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go
> through a surf
> washed beach without being attacked by the surfers
> themselves who
> would be mad as hell you ruined their surfing. But
> remember my
> advice it really can save your life and make
> beaching a calm event
> even when big waves are causing lots of turbulence
> in the water. At
> least four cans of oil might be needed and that
> should give you a
> window of about fifteen minutes to get on shore.
> You can use as
> high as twenty weight but that tends to pool up and
> not spread
> across the water surface as well. Remember I
> learned this trick in
> the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds,
> otters or clams
> just
> save a few lives. So if you are faced with running
> an inlet with
> huge breaking waves and your life is in the balance,
> try it! I have
> seen it work very well.
>
> John Cupp
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
> <John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> > What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of
> life.
> >
> > The boat appears to be about 25 feet long with a
> fin keel. It was
> overtaken by a breaking wave which appears to be
> about 15 feet
> high. The result is an illustration of a wave
> induced broach--the
> boat pitches forward; bow digs in; wave action lifts
> the stern and
> the boat capsizes. Note that around picture 7 and 8
> that the hull
> has accelerated and the sails are aback.
> >
> > The hull self righted and appears to be floating
> on an even keel,
> broadside to the waves. It is rolled again and,
> again it rights
> itself, though subsequent pictures show it is down
> by the stern.
> The cockpit is completely flooded and I would guess
> that the open
> companionway allowed the cabin to flood as well.
> (perhaps the
> rudder was torn off during the second capsize,
> opening up the back
> of the hull?)
> >
> > As Bolger has written, no boat is immune to
> capsize; if you doubt
> it, put a model boat in the surf at the beach or
> watch The Perfect
> Storm. A boat can be designed to recover from a 180
> degree capsize
> (as this one did) and to be a corked bottle with a
> lot of bouyancy
> (assuming the "corked bottle" doesn't break).
> >
> > Running with a large breaking wave is an
> invitation to disaster.
> I would expect a Micro or a Micro Navigator would
> broach and capsize
> under a 15 foot breaking wave. Assuming it held
> together and
> assuming the hatches were closed and secured, I
> would expect it to
> remain afloat, though it would almost certainly be
> dismasted.
> >
> > Stay away from breaking waves!
> >
> > John T
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bruce Hallman
> > To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:03 AM
> > Subject: [bolger] Capsize
> >
> >
> >http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htm
> >
> > Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
> > just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
> > in this surf. I notice how the sinking was
> caused
> > by water pouring into the cockpit and then the
> cabin,
> > and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
> >
> > It also makes me more concious of sailing with
> > the cabin hatch closed versus open.
> >
> > I also suspect that the force of the wave would
> > have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
> >
> > How would have the full length fin keel have
> changed
> > the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
> > the force of the wave?
> >
> > Which Bolger boats would have survived a
> > similar experience, and how?
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead
> horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no
> 'Ed, thanks,
> Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your
> posts, and snip
> away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> -----------http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 -
> Release Date:
> 4/1/2005
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Help save the life of a child. Support St. Jude
> Children's Research Hospital's
> 'Thanks & Giving.'
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Whale oil would work too, but fish oil made from menhaden and similar
species was undoubtedly cheaper.
species was undoubtedly cheaper.
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:11:02 -0400, Roger wrote:
>
> That would be whale oil, wouldn't it?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jhkohnen@...>
>
> > In the Old Days they used fish oil to calm the seas -- non-toxic,
> > biodegradable, perhaps even organic, depending on the fish it comes from.
> > <g> I'll bet vegetable oil would work too.
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
Correlation does not imply causation; except, of course, to your cat.
<Craig O'Donnell>
> Which, begs the question, someone mentioned shallows. Are shallowsA central event in Bolgers fiction book Schorpioen involves the
> the only place breaking waves like this are generated, or can they
> happen anywhere?
demasting of a ship in the middle of the ocean by a rogue wave.
I would think any oily substitute would work. Vegetable, fish
oil, etc.
It's like boiling pasta or potatoes. Add a tablespoon of oil
and you won't get a boil over of foam. It breaks the surface
tension and does not let it foam up with air like a breaking
wave does as it rolls over. Creating eddies will do the same
thing as in a full keel boat hove to in a storm. They claim
you can see the wave dissolve as the keel slides down a wave
front.
I've never experienced the full keel effect but I use a little
oil whenever I'm boiling pasta or potatoes. I can only
envision the effect on a breaking wave but have faith that it
would work to some degree.
I'd opt not to use petroleum oil to be environmentally
conscience.
:>)
Jeff
oil, etc.
It's like boiling pasta or potatoes. Add a tablespoon of oil
and you won't get a boil over of foam. It breaks the surface
tension and does not let it foam up with air like a breaking
wave does as it rolls over. Creating eddies will do the same
thing as in a full keel boat hove to in a storm. They claim
you can see the wave dissolve as the keel slides down a wave
front.
I've never experienced the full keel effect but I use a little
oil whenever I'm boiling pasta or potatoes. I can only
envision the effect on a breaking wave but have faith that it
would work to some degree.
I'd opt not to use petroleum oil to be environmentally
conscience.
:>)
Jeff
>------~->
> That would be whale oil, wouldn't it?
>
> Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <jhkohnen@...>
>
>> In the Old Days they used fish oil to calm the seas --
>> non-toxic, biodegradable, perhaps even organic, depending
>> on the fish it comes from. <g> I'll bet vegetable oil would
>> work too.
>>
>> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 00:12:07 -0000, John C wrote:
>>> ...
>>> We were shown how to beach a boat in relative safety in
>>> heavy
>>> breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some quart
>>> bottles of 5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an
>>> emergency you would throw an open can ahead and behind
>>> you.
>>> ...
>>> I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go through a
>>> surf
>>> washed beach without being attacked by the surfers
>>> themselves who would be mad as hell you ruined their
>>> surfing.
>>> ...
>>> Remember I learned this trick in
>>> the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds, otters or
>>> clams
>>> just
>>> save a few lives.
>>> ...
>>
>> --
>> John <jkohnen@...>
>>http://www.boat-links.com/
>> One boat just leads to another.
>> <John Kohnen>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
>> horses - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
>> thanks, Fred' posts - Pls add your comments at the TOP,
>> SIGN your posts, and snip away - Plans: Mr. Philip C.
>> Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
>> 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:
>>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
>> Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~--> Help save the life of a child.
> Support St. Jude Children's Research Hospital's 'Thanks &
> Giving.'
>http://us.click.yahoo.com/6iY7fA/5WnJAA/Y3ZIAA/_0TolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> horses - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts - Pls add your comments at the TOP,
> SIGN your posts, and snip away - Plans: Mr. Philip C.
> Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
> 282-1349 - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.comYahoo!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>
That would be whale oil, wouldn't it?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: <jhkohnen@...>
> In the Old Days they used fish oil to calm the seas -- non-toxic,
> biodegradable, perhaps even organic, depending on the fish it comes from.
> <g> I'll bet vegetable oil would work too.
>
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 00:12:07 -0000, John C wrote:
>> ...
>> We were shown how to beach a boat in relative safety in heavy
>> breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some quart bottles of
>> 5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an emergency you would
>> throw an open can ahead and behind you.
>> ...
>> I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go through a surf
>> washed beach without being attacked by the surfers themselves who
>> would be mad as hell you ruined their surfing.
>> ...
>> Remember I learned this trick in
>> the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds, otters or clams
>> just
>> save a few lives.
>> ...
>
> --
> John <jkohnen@...>
>http://www.boat-links.com/
> One boat just leads to another.
> <John Kohnen>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
And my lexan attaches to 1/2" MDO, in 3 inch "T" or "L" shapes,
with the joints glassed. In fact, almost all the joints on my boat
are glassed.
Stil, makes one wonder how my cruising chebacco would survive such
an event. If the breaking wave stayed over the back deck, it would
probably drain. Still, with a non-self draining cockpit...
I'd be less concerned with the lexan than with the cockpit flooding.
Just recently found some draw catches I like, to get rid of the
bungee cord hatch retaining system. Still, I'd be conderned...
Mayby with centerboard up it would "skit away" from a breaking wave,
still, plenty of reason to stay away from such waters!
Which, begs the question, someone mentioned shallows. Are shallows
the only place breaking waves like this are generated, or can they
happen anywhere?
with the joints glassed. In fact, almost all the joints on my boat
are glassed.
Stil, makes one wonder how my cruising chebacco would survive such
an event. If the breaking wave stayed over the back deck, it would
probably drain. Still, with a non-self draining cockpit...
I'd be less concerned with the lexan than with the cockpit flooding.
Just recently found some draw catches I like, to get rid of the
bungee cord hatch retaining system. Still, I'd be conderned...
Mayby with centerboard up it would "skit away" from a breaking wave,
still, plenty of reason to stay away from such waters!
Which, begs the question, someone mentioned shallows. Are shallows
the only place breaking waves like this are generated, or can they
happen anywhere?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > Bigger trouble would have been the big windows on a Navigator.
Unless they
> > are VERY thick and VERY well made, and very well braced, they
would probably
> > implode under such a load. There's a lot of force there.
>
> It is a fair concern, and without a test it is hard to know for
sure.
>
> Though I have 'hands on' knowlege of those windows
> and I have a *great* respect for the ruggedness of Lexan.
>
> For perspective, I believe 1/8" Lexan to be, without a doubt,
several
> times stronger than 1/4" plywood. I have tested Lexan by beating
on
> it violently with a hammer, with no ill effect. 1/4" Plywood
would be
> destroyed under the same test.
>
> Why worry about the Lexan and not the adjacent plywood?
> Could this popular concern about Lexan windows be a pyschological
> effect due to the transparancy to light?
>
> The weak link of course is not the Lexan, but rather the window
> stiles and rails. On my boat they are made from epoxy coated
> 1 1/2" Fir, which too is pretty strong stuff.
In the Old Days they used fish oil to calm the seas -- non-toxic,
biodegradable, perhaps even organic, depending on the fish it comes from.
<g> I'll bet vegetable oil would work too.
biodegradable, perhaps even organic, depending on the fish it comes from.
<g> I'll bet vegetable oil would work too.
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 00:12:07 -0000, John C wrote:
> ...
> We were shown how to beach a boat in relative safety in heavy
> breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some quart bottles of
> 5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an emergency you would
> throw an open can ahead and behind you.
> ...
> I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go through a surf
> washed beach without being attacked by the surfers themselves who
> would be mad as hell you ruined their surfing.
> ...
> Remember I learned this trick in
> the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds, otters or clams
> just
> save a few lives.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
One boat just leads to another.
<John Kohnen>
I certainly hope this discussion is hypothetical. It makes perfect sense to make a boat as strong as possible, but I think it is insanity to voluntarily subject the boat to destructive testing in easily avoided conditions and possibly bet your life on the outcome! Most of us sail for pleasure--not for life or war or even profit. We might, through bad luck or bad judgement get caught in rougher conditions than we might like, but given any option, we are better advised to avoid the conditions rather than challenge them.
John T--a cowardly, but old sailor.
John T--a cowardly, but old sailor.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Capsize
> Does your loved one know about this "accident" under the bridge and
> your curiosity about whether a Navigator could stand up to it
> etc....?
> Peter Lenihan
Well, when she saw the photos she asked if she could buy
one of those 'survival suits'.
I don't intend to take my Micro surfing, but the source of my
curiousity is Phil Bolger's commission of the Micro Navigator
was to design a boat suitable for circumnavigating Austrailia.
I suspect it is possible in the Roaring Fourties to encounter
very heavy seas. Probably not breaking upon shoals, but
still some big stuff.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Bruce Hallman wrote:
a guy recently made the crossing from Tasmania to the mainland in a laser.
http://www.boatingoz.com.au/news05/0305.htm
"I always knew Lasers were fun down-wind, I reckon I caught a wave just
about
every 10 seconds for 13 and a half hours (4000+ waves)."
Nevertheless, I suspect that it would be a brave fellow who would attempt
an
Australian circumnavigation in a Navigator. There are parts of the coast
where there are no safe harbours for many hundreds of kilometers, just
big cliffs and no human life. Up North the speed of the tidal currents may
exceed the hull speed of the boat. Winds in the midwest coast howl for
much of the year. Expect cyclones in the North. You would need to carry
great stock of provisions, especially water. I would suggest that such an
endeavour would be much more challenging than an atlantic crossing.
Of course, it *could* be done. But the Navigator wouldn't be my choice
of vessel. I am sure Bolger has designed far more suitable boats.
I suspect that he was constrained to a Micro hull by the customer.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> I don't intend to take my Micro surfing, but the source of myHi Bruce,
> curiousity is Phil Bolger's commission of the Micro Navigator
> was to design a boat suitable for circumnavigating Austrailia.
> I suspect it is possible in the Roaring Fourties to encounter
> very heavy seas. Probably not breaking upon shoals, but
> still some big stuff.
a guy recently made the crossing from Tasmania to the mainland in a laser.
http://www.boatingoz.com.au/news05/0305.htm
"I always knew Lasers were fun down-wind, I reckon I caught a wave just
about
every 10 seconds for 13 and a half hours (4000+ waves)."
Nevertheless, I suspect that it would be a brave fellow who would attempt
an
Australian circumnavigation in a Navigator. There are parts of the coast
where there are no safe harbours for many hundreds of kilometers, just
big cliffs and no human life. Up North the speed of the tidal currents may
exceed the hull speed of the boat. Winds in the midwest coast howl for
much of the year. Expect cyclones in the North. You would need to carry
great stock of provisions, especially water. I would suggest that such an
endeavour would be much more challenging than an atlantic crossing.
Of course, it *could* be done. But the Navigator wouldn't be my choice
of vessel. I am sure Bolger has designed far more suitable boats.
I suspect that he was constrained to a Micro hull by the customer.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
I have sailed that area around the Golden Gate and commercial fished
from San Francisco for most of the years I was growing up. Before
environmentalism ( notice any type of PC behavior has Mental added
in) I was in the Sea Scouts at the Palo Alto Yacht Harbor down the
bay. We were shown how to beach a boat in relative safety in heavy
breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some quart bottles of
5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an emergency you would
throw an open can ahead and behind you. Now they use bottles but
this was done in the 1960's It flattens out all the breaking waves
and you get none of the bubbling churning surf, reducing the wave
height in the process.
It is apparent that the people on that boat were asleep at the helm
or doing things unmentionable on this forum or they would have seen
their desperate situation. Maybe they were just trying to get close
enough to take pictures with a camera without the use of a telephoto
lens. I think they were crazy in that area.. Out a little further
and to the north of that area is a place called the potato patch
shoals and they are the most dangerous waters next to the Columbia
Bar on the West coast of the US. Not to mention that every year
there are Great White Shark attacks at the very beach those pictures
were taken. Even inside the Gate there are shark attacks often. It
is an amazing set of pictures showing what not to do. In a
situation where you need to get on shore you come straight in and
not at any angle to the beach. If you have a keel boat you try to
ride the wave height in until you finally hit bottom but using an
anchor for the boat and riding in on a rubber boat would be ten
times better than what they did. Hind sight is always twenty,
twenty but risking your life calls for oil.
I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go through a surf
washed beach without being attacked by the surfers themselves who
would be mad as hell you ruined their surfing. But remember my
advice it really can save your life and make beaching a calm event
even when big waves are causing lots of turbulence in the water. At
least four cans of oil might be needed and that should give you a
window of about fifteen minutes to get on shore. You can use as
high as twenty weight but that tends to pool up and not spread
across the water surface as well. Remember I learned this trick in
the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds, otters or clams
just
save a few lives. So if you are faced with running an inlet with
huge breaking waves and your life is in the balance, try it! I have
seen it work very well.
John Cupp
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
high. The result is an illustration of a wave induced broach--the
boat pitches forward; bow digs in; wave action lifts the stern and
the boat capsizes. Note that around picture 7 and 8 that the hull
has accelerated and the sails are aback.
itself, though subsequent pictures show it is down by the stern.
The cockpit is completely flooded and I would guess that the open
companionway allowed the cabin to flood as well. (perhaps the
rudder was torn off during the second capsize, opening up the back
of the hull?)
Storm. A boat can be designed to recover from a 180 degree capsize
(as this one did) and to be a corked bottle with a lot of bouyancy
(assuming the "corked bottle" doesn't break).
under a 15 foot breaking wave. Assuming it held together and
assuming the hatches were closed and secured, I would expect it to
remain afloat, though it would almost certainly be dismasted.
from San Francisco for most of the years I was growing up. Before
environmentalism ( notice any type of PC behavior has Mental added
in) I was in the Sea Scouts at the Palo Alto Yacht Harbor down the
bay. We were shown how to beach a boat in relative safety in heavy
breaking surf. All you needed to do was carry some quart bottles of
5 weight oil. While you were coming in, in an emergency you would
throw an open can ahead and behind you. Now they use bottles but
this was done in the 1960's It flattens out all the breaking waves
and you get none of the bubbling churning surf, reducing the wave
height in the process.
It is apparent that the people on that boat were asleep at the helm
or doing things unmentionable on this forum or they would have seen
their desperate situation. Maybe they were just trying to get close
enough to take pictures with a camera without the use of a telephoto
lens. I think they were crazy in that area.. Out a little further
and to the north of that area is a place called the potato patch
shoals and they are the most dangerous waters next to the Columbia
Bar on the West coast of the US. Not to mention that every year
there are Great White Shark attacks at the very beach those pictures
were taken. Even inside the Gate there are shark attacks often. It
is an amazing set of pictures showing what not to do. In a
situation where you need to get on shore you come straight in and
not at any angle to the beach. If you have a keel boat you try to
ride the wave height in until you finally hit bottom but using an
anchor for the boat and riding in on a rubber boat would be ten
times better than what they did. Hind sight is always twenty,
twenty but risking your life calls for oil.
I cannot in this day an age see using oil to go through a surf
washed beach without being attacked by the surfers themselves who
would be mad as hell you ruined their surfing. But remember my
advice it really can save your life and make beaching a calm event
even when big waves are causing lots of turbulence in the water. At
least four cans of oil might be needed and that should give you a
window of about fifteen minutes to get on shore. You can use as
high as twenty weight but that tends to pool up and not spread
across the water surface as well. Remember I learned this trick in
the Sea Scouts and I don't want to kill birds, otters or clams
just
save a few lives. So if you are faced with running an inlet with
huge breaking waves and your life is in the balance, try it! I have
seen it work very well.
John Cupp
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of life.overtaken by a breaking wave which appears to be about 15 feet
>
> The boat appears to be about 25 feet long with a fin keel. It was
high. The result is an illustration of a wave induced broach--the
boat pitches forward; bow digs in; wave action lifts the stern and
the boat capsizes. Note that around picture 7 and 8 that the hull
has accelerated and the sails are aback.
>broadside to the waves. It is rolled again and, again it rights
> The hull self righted and appears to be floating on an even keel,
itself, though subsequent pictures show it is down by the stern.
The cockpit is completely flooded and I would guess that the open
companionway allowed the cabin to flood as well. (perhaps the
rudder was torn off during the second capsize, opening up the back
of the hull?)
>it, put a model boat in the surf at the beach or watch The Perfect
> As Bolger has written, no boat is immune to capsize; if you doubt
Storm. A boat can be designed to recover from a 180 degree capsize
(as this one did) and to be a corked bottle with a lot of bouyancy
(assuming the "corked bottle" doesn't break).
>I would expect a Micro or a Micro Navigator would broach and capsize
> Running with a large breaking wave is an invitation to disaster.
under a 15 foot breaking wave. Assuming it held together and
assuming the hatches were closed and secured, I would expect it to
remain afloat, though it would almost certainly be dismasted.
>horses
> Stay away from breaking waves!
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Hallman
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:03 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Capsize
>
>
>http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htm
>
> Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
> just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
> in this surf. I notice how the sinking was caused
> by water pouring into the cockpit and then the cabin,
> and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
>
> It also makes me more concious of sailing with
> the cabin hatch closed versus open.
>
> I also suspect that the force of the wave would
> have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
>
> How would have the full length fin keel have changed
> the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
> the force of the wave?
>
> Which Bolger boats would have survived a
> similar experience, and how?
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>-----------
>
>
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>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>4/1/2005
>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Jeff,
Thanks for the link, I'll have a look at the modifications.
Jack
Thanks for the link, I'll have a look at the modifications.
Jack
http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/egretschooner.pdf
Found it. I was in error, the skeg was a modification.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: muscongus [mailto:muscongus@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:43 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Capsize
Jeff,
I can't remember ever reading of Egret having a skeg. Is it mentioned in
"The Commodore's Story" or "Good Little Ship" ?
The original was lost in a hurricane, but the early replica which Chapelle
lifted the lines from had no skeg. I've thought of building Egret for a
while, and I've toyed with the idea of a skeg, so I can use a Yanmar diesel
I have, but I'm pretty certain Monroe's boat had none. Great stories of
running inlets though aren't they?
Jack
Found it. I was in error, the skeg was a modification.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: muscongus [mailto:muscongus@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:43 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Capsize
Jeff,
I can't remember ever reading of Egret having a skeg. Is it mentioned in
"The Commodore's Story" or "Good Little Ship" ?
The original was lost in a hurricane, but the early replica which Chapelle
lifted the lines from had no skeg. I've thought of building Egret for a
while, and I've toyed with the idea of a skeg, so I can use a Yanmar diesel
I have, but I'm pretty certain Monroe's boat had none. Great stories of
running inlets though aren't they?
Jack
It's very possible I'm in error on the skeg. It's been 7 years since I was
hot on building an Egret. I settled on a much easier boat to build but the
Egret sure had me captivated for a while.
It may well be a drawing I saw from another designers "concept" of the
Egret. I seem to remember a small skeg starting at the deepest part of the
hull and running aft for about 4 or 5 feet. It was forward enough to not
allow a breaking wave to get leverage on the stern but big enough to give
some tracking qualities.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: muscongus [mailto:muscongus@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:43 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Capsize
Jeff,
I can't remember ever reading of Egret having a skeg. Is it mentioned in
"The Commodore's Story" or "Good Little Ship" ?
The original was lost in a hurricane, but the early replica which Chapelle
lifted the lines from had no skeg. I've thought of building Egret for a
while, and I've toyed with the idea of a skeg, so I can use a Yanmar diesel
I have, but I'm pretty certain Monroe's boat had none. Great stories of
running inlets though aren't they?
Jack
hot on building an Egret. I settled on a much easier boat to build but the
Egret sure had me captivated for a while.
It may well be a drawing I saw from another designers "concept" of the
Egret. I seem to remember a small skeg starting at the deepest part of the
hull and running aft for about 4 or 5 feet. It was forward enough to not
allow a breaking wave to get leverage on the stern but big enough to give
some tracking qualities.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: muscongus [mailto:muscongus@...]
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:43 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Capsize
Jeff,
I can't remember ever reading of Egret having a skeg. Is it mentioned in
"The Commodore's Story" or "Good Little Ship" ?
The original was lost in a hurricane, but the early replica which Chapelle
lifted the lines from had no skeg. I've thought of building Egret for a
while, and I've toyed with the idea of a skeg, so I can use a Yanmar diesel
I have, but I'm pretty certain Monroe's boat had none. Great stories of
running inlets though aren't they?
Jack
Jeff,
I can't remember ever reading of Egret having a skeg. Is it
mentioned in "The Commodore's Story" or "Good Little Ship" ?
The original was lost in a hurricane, but the early replica which
Chapelle lifted the lines from had no skeg. I've thought of building
Egret for a while, and I've toyed with the idea of a skeg, so I can
use a Yanmar diesel I have, but I'm pretty certain Monroe's boat had
none. Great stories of running inlets though aren't they?
Jack
. The deep skeg kept it tracking while
I can't remember ever reading of Egret having a skeg. Is it
mentioned in "The Commodore's Story" or "Good Little Ship" ?
The original was lost in a hurricane, but the early replica which
Chapelle lifted the lines from had no skeg. I've thought of building
Egret for a while, and I've toyed with the idea of a skeg, so I can
use a Yanmar diesel I have, but I'm pretty certain Monroe's boat had
none. Great stories of running inlets though aren't they?
Jack
. The deep skeg kept it tracking while
> the shallow draft and centerboard would handle the shallows. Hedesigned
> the boat to run in and out of the estuaries of the Florida coastand claims
> many of times the locals would scurry for their rescue craftwatching him
> come ashore only to be amazed at him popping up out of the surf togently
> beach the boat.was just the
>
> No description as to how he got back out against the surf or it
> occasional need to get in out of a storm but if it's true it wouldbe an
> amazing site.Some
>
> How did he keep it from being beat to splinters after beaching?
> mysteries may never be solved but Commodore Monroe delivered mailand
> supplies for many years with his Egret.ashore
>
> Jeff
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Pope [mailto:james.pope1@c...]
> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 9:52 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
>
>
>
>
> John B. Trussell wrote:
>
> > What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of life.
> >
> > *
> >
> >
> Sad indeed. The boat appears to be under control and being steered
> while being overtaken by breaking waves. I don't know if we canmake sailing
> vessels that that could withstand that kind of treatment.are
> That boat didn't break. She was filled full of water and sank.
>
> Phil's ocean crossing rowboat designs with the companionway closed
> designed to be capable of surviving a roll over but I don't thinkthat any
> of his vessels would withstand the beating that boat got anybetter than it
> did.Gate is a
>
> The boat did its part. The people running her didn't. The Golden
> well charted waterway.stormy and
>
> The Micro is an honest boat. If you're at sea in those breaking sea
> conditions you are already under very much shortened sail. It is
> you probly do have the companion closed. Instead, if, like thosepeople, you
> are in breaking waves close to shore while imitating a surf boat,your boat
> will likely not break up any faster than theirs did.posts
>
> Jim
>
> > *
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax:
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
The key difference was that Munroe was running INLETS. After he popped out
of the surf on the bar he was in quiet water inside the estuary and beaching
was no problem, or relaunching. Landing on an exposed beach is done some
places, but not in seas as large as those in the slide show -- except maybe
by lifesaving surfboats manned by men made of sterner stuff than most of
us... Any boat landing on an exposed beach has to be light enough and
shallow enough to be pulled quickly up on shore past the reach of the waves
before it's pounded to pieces.
of the surf on the bar he was in quiet water inside the estuary and beaching
was no problem, or relaunching. Landing on an exposed beach is done some
places, but not in seas as large as those in the slide show -- except maybe
by lifesaving surfboats manned by men made of sterner stuff than most of
us... Any boat landing on an exposed beach has to be light enough and
shallow enough to be pulled quickly up on shore past the reach of the waves
before it's pounded to pieces.
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:59:07 -0600, Jeff wrote:
>
> Commodore Monroe of the sharpie fame claims his boat design called Egret
was
> built just for this type of maneuvers. The deep skeg kept it tracking
while
> the shallow draft and centerboard would handle the shallows. He designed
> the boat to run in and out of the estuaries of the Florida coast and
claims
> many of times the locals would scurry for their rescue craft watching him
> come ashore only to be amazed at him popping up out of the surf to gently
> beach the boat.
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
http://www.boat-links.com/
The only way to keep your health is to eat what you don't want, drink what
you don't like, and do what you'd rather not. <Mark Twain>
> Does your loved one know about this "accident" under the bridge andWell, when she saw the photos she asked if she could buy
> your curiosity about whether a Navigator could stand up to it
> etc....?
> Peter Lenihan
one of those 'survival suits'.
I don't intend to take my Micro surfing, but the source of my
curiousity is Phil Bolger's commission of the Micro Navigator
was to design a boat suitable for circumnavigating Austrailia.
I suspect it is possible in the Roaring Fourties to encounter
very heavy seas. Probably not breaking upon shoals, but
still some big stuff.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Nevertheless Bruce,stay away from the south tower of that darned
bridge and stay away from surfing beaches in general,unless you want
to try the Payson Surf board :-) Build yourself a Champlain or
Windermere(if space permits) and take you and your loved one(s) out
on fun filled romantic cruises in complete relaxed comfort.If you
must,you could even anchor out near these danger spots and video,for
entertainments sake, the antics of reckless youths,the endeavours of
reckless adults and the consequences of both :-)
If you build a Windermere,you could even haul a few of your smaller
fleet boats up on the roof......then again,you could probably build
a Nymph or Tortise up there once afloat :-)
Does your loved one know about this "accident" under the bridge and
your curiosity about whether a Navigator could stand up to it
etc....?
Play safe!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,completely off my rocker and several slices short of a
loaf but not THAT crazy..........
> I have it screwed to the frame every three inches,Hmmmmm....sounds like a set-up for perforated wood!
> perhaps fifty screws.
Nevertheless Bruce,stay away from the south tower of that darned
bridge and stay away from surfing beaches in general,unless you want
to try the Payson Surf board :-) Build yourself a Champlain or
Windermere(if space permits) and take you and your loved one(s) out
on fun filled romantic cruises in complete relaxed comfort.If you
must,you could even anchor out near these danger spots and video,for
entertainments sake, the antics of reckless youths,the endeavours of
reckless adults and the consequences of both :-)
If you build a Windermere,you could even haul a few of your smaller
fleet boats up on the roof......then again,you could probably build
a Nymph or Tortise up there once afloat :-)
Does your loved one know about this "accident" under the bridge and
your curiosity about whether a Navigator could stand up to it
etc....?
Play safe!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,completely off my rocker and several slices short of a
loaf but not THAT crazy..........
Absolutely John!
DonB
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...> wrote:
> Take a piece of 1/8" lexan the same shape as your largest window,
put in a
> window frame the same size and construction as that on your boat and
place
> it horizontally about 2 feet off the ground. Then have someone about
my size
> (220 lbs), jump from about three feet into the center of it. You
don't think
> it wouldn't deform and pop out of it's frame? Water weighs 62 lbs
per cubic
> foot. Get it moving even a little bit and imagine what kind of psi would
> those window have to take.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
>
>
> |
> | > Bigger trouble would have been the big windows on a Navigator.
Unless
> they
> | > are VERY thick and VERY well made, and very well braced, they would
> probably
> | > implode under such a load. There's a lot of force there.
> |
> | It is a fair concern, and without a test it is hard to know for sure.
> |
> | Though I have 'hands on' knowlege of those windows
> | and I have a *great* respect for the ruggedness of Lexan.
> |
> | For perspective, I believe 1/8" Lexan to be, without a doubt, several
> | times stronger than 1/4" plywood. I have tested Lexan by beating on
> | it violently with a hammer, with no ill effect. 1/4" Plywood would be
> | destroyed under the same test.
> |
> | Why worry about the Lexan and not the adjacent plywood?
> | Could this popular concern about Lexan windows be a pyschological
> | effect due to the transparancy to light?
> |
> | The weak link of course is not the Lexan, but rather the window
> | stiles and rails. On my boat they are made from epoxy coated
> | 1 1/2" Fir, which too is pretty strong stuff.
> |
> |
> |
> | Bolger rules!!!
> | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> | - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> | - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> | - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> | - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> | - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> | Yahoo! Groups Links
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> it horizontally about 2 feet off the ground. Then have someone about my sizeActually, I don't think it would pop out of its frame.
> (220 lbs), jump from about three feet into the center of it. You don't think
> it wouldn't deform and pop out of it's frame?
I have it screwed to the frame every three inches,
perhaps fifty screws. [The math requires triginometry,]
but that is only five pounds per screw in simple terms.
Each screw is probably good for ten times that.
Take a piece of 1/8" lexan the same shape as your largest window, put in a
window frame the same size and construction as that on your boat and place
it horizontally about 2 feet off the ground. Then have someone about my size
(220 lbs), jump from about three feet into the center of it. You don't think
it wouldn't deform and pop out of it's frame? Water weighs 62 lbs per cubic
foot. Get it moving even a little bit and imagine what kind of psi would
those window have to take.
window frame the same size and construction as that on your boat and place
it horizontally about 2 feet off the ground. Then have someone about my size
(220 lbs), jump from about three feet into the center of it. You don't think
it wouldn't deform and pop out of it's frame? Water weighs 62 lbs per cubic
foot. Get it moving even a little bit and imagine what kind of psi would
those window have to take.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:36 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
|
| > Bigger trouble would have been the big windows on a Navigator. Unless
they
| > are VERY thick and VERY well made, and very well braced, they would
probably
| > implode under such a load. There's a lot of force there.
|
| It is a fair concern, and without a test it is hard to know for sure.
|
| Though I have 'hands on' knowlege of those windows
| and I have a *great* respect for the ruggedness of Lexan.
|
| For perspective, I believe 1/8" Lexan to be, without a doubt, several
| times stronger than 1/4" plywood. I have tested Lexan by beating on
| it violently with a hammer, with no ill effect. 1/4" Plywood would be
| destroyed under the same test.
|
| Why worry about the Lexan and not the adjacent plywood?
| Could this popular concern about Lexan windows be a pyschological
| effect due to the transparancy to light?
|
| The weak link of course is not the Lexan, but rather the window
| stiles and rails. On my boat they are made from epoxy coated
| 1 1/2" Fir, which too is pretty strong stuff.
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
> Bigger trouble would have been the big windows on a Navigator. Unless theyIt is a fair concern, and without a test it is hard to know for sure.
> are VERY thick and VERY well made, and very well braced, they would probably
> implode under such a load. There's a lot of force there.
Though I have 'hands on' knowlege of those windows
and I have a *great* respect for the ruggedness of Lexan.
For perspective, I believe 1/8" Lexan to be, without a doubt, several
times stronger than 1/4" plywood. I have tested Lexan by beating on
it violently with a hammer, with no ill effect. 1/4" Plywood would be
destroyed under the same test.
Why worry about the Lexan and not the adjacent plywood?
Could this popular concern about Lexan windows be a pyschological
effect due to the transparancy to light?
The weak link of course is not the Lexan, but rather the window
stiles and rails. On my boat they are made from epoxy coated
1 1/2" Fir, which too is pretty strong stuff.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
| I also suspect that the force of the wave would
| have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
Bigger trouble would have been the big windows on a Navigator. Unless they
are VERY thick and VERY well made, and very well braced, they would probably
implode under such a load. There's a lot of force there.
Would a flat bottomed boat like a sharpie survive
better.If the yacht had a conventional keel then it
would roll on that as soon as it grounded.
Cheers
Andy Airey
---wmrpage@...wrote:
---------------------------------
In a message dated 4/4/05 10:06:59 AM Central Daylight
Time,
bruce@...writes:
breaking against a shore is a
goner, the actual mechanism of final failure being a
matter of little
interest. Whether or not this boat flooded by its
cockpit, it was out of control and
effectively lost even before it first rolled and lost
its mast. No matter what
the size or construction of a vessel in this
predicament, there is only one
possible outcome - the boat or ship will be driven
ashore and pounded to pieces
and/or buried in the sand. Designing a boat to survive
these conditions would
be akin to designing a capsule to go over Niagara
Falls.
IMHO, These photos demonstrate a gross failure
of navigation and/or
judgment, not any defect in the boat. The boat may
have been less seaworthy than
some of Bolger's designs, but the only difference in
the end is that one
leaves shards of fiberglass, while the other leaves
shards of plywood.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
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better.If the yacht had a conventional keel then it
would roll on that as soon as it grounded.
Cheers
Andy Airey
---wmrpage@...wrote:
---------------------------------
In a message dated 4/4/05 10:06:59 AM Central Daylight
Time,
bruce@...writes:
> Which Bolger boats would have survived aI think that any vessel caught in a wave
> similar experience, and how?
>
breaking against a shore is a
goner, the actual mechanism of final failure being a
matter of little
interest. Whether or not this boat flooded by its
cockpit, it was out of control and
effectively lost even before it first rolled and lost
its mast. No matter what
the size or construction of a vessel in this
predicament, there is only one
possible outcome - the boat or ship will be driven
ashore and pounded to pieces
and/or buried in the sand. Designing a boat to survive
these conditions would
be akin to designing a capsule to go over Niagara
Falls.
IMHO, These photos demonstrate a gross failure
of navigation and/or
judgment, not any defect in the boat. The boat may
have been less seaworthy than
some of Bolger's designs, but the only difference in
the end is that one
leaves shards of fiberglass, while the other leaves
shards of plywood.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jim Pope <james.pope1@c...> wrote:
that area but "being steered ashore" isn't quite accurate. There's
an area of shoal water under the bridge but the boat was on a
course that would have gotten her to deeper water shortly --- a
little more boat speed might have been enough. That said, "local
knowledge" firmly dictates "never get near the south tower" and
"never ever go south of the south tower".
But the tide was flooding and it's too easy to see myself
misjudging how much room to give the south tower. Given that you
were where they were at frame one, what would you do? Crack on
and try to get as much boat speed as possible to minimize your
exposure to the breakers, or head up and try to buck the tide
and escape to seaward of the tower (left in the pictures)?
Their jib's poled out in frame 1 but in later frames it looks
like the jib's hung up somehow. I speculate that they wanted to
head up, but in striking the pole the jib got fouled, preventing
them from heading out.
Maybe they'll write up what happened in Latitude 38.
>Minor point ("hi list! first post!") --- dunno if you've been in
> Sad indeed. The boat appears to be under control and being steered
> ashore while being overtaken by breaking waves.
that area but "being steered ashore" isn't quite accurate. There's
an area of shoal water under the bridge but the boat was on a
course that would have gotten her to deeper water shortly --- a
little more boat speed might have been enough. That said, "local
knowledge" firmly dictates "never get near the south tower" and
"never ever go south of the south tower".
But the tide was flooding and it's too easy to see myself
misjudging how much room to give the south tower. Given that you
were where they were at frame one, what would you do? Crack on
and try to get as much boat speed as possible to minimize your
exposure to the breakers, or head up and try to buck the tide
and escape to seaward of the tower (left in the pictures)?
Their jib's poled out in frame 1 but in later frames it looks
like the jib's hung up somehow. I speculate that they wanted to
head up, but in striking the pole the jib got fouled, preventing
them from heading out.
Maybe they'll write up what happened in Latitude 38.
> > The survival 'secret' of Egret appears to be lots of volume forwardAlso, fairly high freeboard for the beam, and a minimum of centerboard
> > with small volume aft.
so that she can skitter sideways when struck by a breaking crest. It's
speculative how Egret would have faired with this wave, of course.
I agree that crew skill is key. In the case, the crew would have
avoided the dangerous area.
Peter
> there is no need to force a sailboat intoUnless you want a sailboat that can launch and retreive
> these situations unless it's an emergency.
> Jeff
from the surf, like the Bolger Nina. One is currently being
built by Harry Winster of our Bolger Group I think. Photos
of her under construction were published a year ago I
recall.
Living near a surf beach, and having no marina close by
I can relate to the desire for a surf launchable sailboat!
Looking at the Nina again I see that it has striking
similarities to Egret, tiny tail and lots of water tight
volume up forward.
Nina
Egret has always captured my attention.
Part of Egrets survival may well be the Captain's skill as much as her
shape. I would doubt there is anyone today with experience as Munroe had
acquired. With power boats today, there is no need to force a sailboat into
these situations unless it's an emergency.
Ah, the olden days where necessity out weighed the sanity.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Derby [mailto:derbyrm@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:03 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
My first thought was that if you wanted/intended to run up on the shore, it
would be well to deploy a drogue or kedge off the stern before getting into
the surf. The rudder just isn't going to do you much good.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
Part of Egrets survival may well be the Captain's skill as much as her
shape. I would doubt there is anyone today with experience as Munroe had
acquired. With power boats today, there is no need to force a sailboat into
these situations unless it's an emergency.
Ah, the olden days where necessity out weighed the sanity.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Derby [mailto:derbyrm@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:03 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
My first thought was that if you wanted/intended to run up on the shore, it
would be well to deploy a drogue or kedge off the stern before getting into
the surf. The rudder just isn't going to do you much good.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>> Commodore Monroe of the sharpie fame claims his boat design called
>> Egret was built just for this type of maneuvers.
>> Jeff
>
>http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/egretschooner.pdf
>http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/Boategret/Boategret.htm
>http://flickr.com/photos/41894184476@N01/6614369/
>
> Are some webpages showing Egret.
>
> Which Bolger boat compares most closely with Egret?
>
> The survival 'secret' of Egret appears to be lots of volume forward
> with small volume aft. I guess that the tail doesn't rise up in the
> surf burying the bow and causing a broach.
> Also, the hull looks like it can plane.
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Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
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Yahoo! Groups Links
Back in my early teens I was paddling around on the mill pond of the local
river. I was chasing a duck who thought it was a fun game. When he finally
took to the air, I realized that rumble I'd been hearing was the water going
over the dam and I was much closer than I wanted to be. It took a lot of
paddling to get back to a safe area.
My point is that from the upstream side, the spill over the dam wasn't
visible. The river curved just below the dam, but if you studied the scene,
you realized there was a gap between the water you could see and the trees
and buildings in the distance. The hazard wasn't obvious. I wonder if the
same visual problems might have lured the sailboat's crew into the surf.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
river. I was chasing a duck who thought it was a fun game. When he finally
took to the air, I realized that rumble I'd been hearing was the water going
over the dam and I was much closer than I wanted to be. It took a lot of
paddling to get back to a safe area.
My point is that from the upstream side, the spill over the dam wasn't
visible. The river curved just below the dam, but if you studied the scene,
you realized there was a gap between the water you could see and the trees
and buildings in the distance. The hazard wasn't obvious. I wonder if the
same visual problems might have lured the sailboat's crew into the surf.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...>
<snip>
> Without knowing the crew's side of the
> story, I'd also say mighty impressive act of stupidity
> considering that there were surfers playing in what
> would have been the foreground for those on board
> the sail boat.
My first thought was that if you wanted/intended to run up on the shore, it
would be well to deploy a drogue or kedge off the stern before getting into
the surf. The rudder just isn't going to do you much good.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
would be well to deploy a drogue or kedge off the stern before getting into
the surf. The rudder just isn't going to do you much good.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>> Commodore Monroe of the sharpie fame claims his boat design called Egret
>> was
>> built just for this type of maneuvers.
>> Jeff
>
>http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/egretschooner.pdf
>http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/Boategret/Boategret.htm
>http://flickr.com/photos/41894184476@N01/6614369/
>
> Are some webpages showing Egret.
>
> Which Bolger boat compares most closely with Egret?
>
> The survival 'secret' of Egret appears to be lots of volume
> forward with small volume aft. I guess that the tail doesn't
> rise up in the surf burying the bow and causing a broach.
> Also, the hull looks like it can plane.
> Commodore Monroe of the sharpie fame claims his boat design called Egret washttp://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/egretschooner.pdf
> built just for this type of maneuvers.
> Jeff
http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/Boategret/Boategret.htm
http://flickr.com/photos/41894184476@N01/6614369/
Are some webpages showing Egret.
Which Bolger boat compares most closely with Egret?
The survival 'secret' of Egret appears to be lots of volume
forward with small volume aft. I guess that the tail doesn't
rise up in the surf burying the bow and causing a broach.
Also, the hull looks like it can plane.
Commodore Monroe of the sharpie fame claims his boat design called Egret was
built just for this type of maneuvers. The deep skeg kept it tracking while
the shallow draft and centerboard would handle the shallows. He designed
the boat to run in and out of the estuaries of the Florida coast and claims
many of times the locals would scurry for their rescue craft watching him
come ashore only to be amazed at him popping up out of the surf to gently
beach the boat.
No description as to how he got back out against the surf or it was just the
occasional need to get in out of a storm but if it's true it would be an
amazing site.
How did he keep it from being beat to splinters after beaching? Some
mysteries may never be solved but Commodore Monroe delivered mail and
supplies for many years with his Egret.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Pope [mailto:james.pope1@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 9:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
John B. Trussell wrote:
while being overtaken by breaking waves. I don't know if we can make sailing
vessels that that could withstand that kind of treatment.
That boat didn't break. She was filled full of water and sank.
Phil's ocean crossing rowboat designs with the companionway closed are
designed to be capable of surviving a roll over but I don't think that any
of his vessels would withstand the beating that boat got any better than it
did.
The boat did its part. The people running her didn't. The Golden Gate is a
well charted waterway.
The Micro is an honest boat. If you're at sea in those breaking sea
conditions you are already under very much shortened sail. It is stormy and
you probly do have the companion closed. Instead, if, like those people, you
are in breaking waves close to shore while imitating a surf boat, your boat
will likely not break up any faster than theirs did.
Jim
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
built just for this type of maneuvers. The deep skeg kept it tracking while
the shallow draft and centerboard would handle the shallows. He designed
the boat to run in and out of the estuaries of the Florida coast and claims
many of times the locals would scurry for their rescue craft watching him
come ashore only to be amazed at him popping up out of the surf to gently
beach the boat.
No description as to how he got back out against the surf or it was just the
occasional need to get in out of a storm but if it's true it would be an
amazing site.
How did he keep it from being beat to splinters after beaching? Some
mysteries may never be solved but Commodore Monroe delivered mail and
supplies for many years with his Egret.
Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Pope [mailto:james.pope1@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 9:52 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Capsize
John B. Trussell wrote:
> What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of life.Sad indeed. The boat appears to be under control and being steered ashore
>
> *
>
>
while being overtaken by breaking waves. I don't know if we can make sailing
vessels that that could withstand that kind of treatment.
That boat didn't break. She was filled full of water and sank.
Phil's ocean crossing rowboat designs with the companionway closed are
designed to be capable of surviving a roll over but I don't think that any
of his vessels would withstand the beating that boat got any better than it
did.
The boat did its part. The people running her didn't. The Golden Gate is a
well charted waterway.
The Micro is an honest boat. If you're at sea in those breaking sea
conditions you are already under very much shortened sail. It is stormy and
you probly do have the companion closed. Instead, if, like those people, you
are in breaking waves close to shore while imitating a surf boat, your boat
will likely not break up any faster than theirs did.
Jim
> *[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
story,I'd also say mighty impressive act of stupidity considering
that there were surfers playing in what would have been the
foreground for those on board the sail boat.
Now,why in the name of all that is holy would a perfectly crazy and
likeable boatbuilding nut like yourself even bother to"contemplate"
how a Navigator would react to those breaking waves? Death wish?
You're way too bright to find yourself in such a predicament and
besides, you still have many more boats to build before the end of
the day :-)
But,to answer partly your question, I would expect the Micro to be
quickly overcome by the breaking waves,the full length keel having
little effect as it would presumeably be caught in
the"foam",depending alot on how she was built,she may start to fall
apart in bits after the first tumble.The mainmast may become
dislodged from its' step and conveinantly put a nice hole exactly
where you do not want one.Or it may break above cabin height....If
no foam floatation was used,she will soon sink from the rapid intake
of water.One could perhaps hope that the keel would be torn right
off of her to at least give a chance to recovering the hull for a re-
build :-)
Thanks for the pictures and keep a copy of one of them taped near
your helm station just in case you find yourself sailing in an area
that looks oddly familiar!
Sincerely,
Peter"chickenshite" Lenihan,happy in my warm dry comfy state-o-mind
and amazed at the utter lack of chickenshite in some folk(like those
sailing into the surf)and just wondering if those onboard
experienced a"kunstpause moment" just before all'ell broke
loose...............:-D
>http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htmMighty scary pictures Bruce!Without knowing the crews side of the
>
> Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
> just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
> in this surf.
story,I'd also say mighty impressive act of stupidity considering
that there were surfers playing in what would have been the
foreground for those on board the sail boat.
Now,why in the name of all that is holy would a perfectly crazy and
likeable boatbuilding nut like yourself even bother to"contemplate"
how a Navigator would react to those breaking waves? Death wish?
You're way too bright to find yourself in such a predicament and
besides, you still have many more boats to build before the end of
the day :-)
But,to answer partly your question, I would expect the Micro to be
quickly overcome by the breaking waves,the full length keel having
little effect as it would presumeably be caught in
the"foam",depending alot on how she was built,she may start to fall
apart in bits after the first tumble.The mainmast may become
dislodged from its' step and conveinantly put a nice hole exactly
where you do not want one.Or it may break above cabin height....If
no foam floatation was used,she will soon sink from the rapid intake
of water.One could perhaps hope that the keel would be torn right
off of her to at least give a chance to recovering the hull for a re-
build :-)
Thanks for the pictures and keep a copy of one of them taped near
your helm station just in case you find yourself sailing in an area
that looks oddly familiar!
Sincerely,
Peter"chickenshite" Lenihan,happy in my warm dry comfy state-o-mind
and amazed at the utter lack of chickenshite in some folk(like those
sailing into the surf)and just wondering if those onboard
experienced a"kunstpause moment" just before all'ell broke
loose...............:-D
In a message dated 4/4/05 10:06:59 AM Central Daylight Time,
bruce@...writes:
goner, the actual mechanism of final failure being a matter of little
interest. Whether or not this boat flooded by its cockpit, it was out of control and
effectively lost even before it first rolled and lost its mast. No matter what
the size or construction of a vessel in this predicament, there is only one
possible outcome - the boat or ship will be driven ashore and pounded to pieces
and/or buried in the sand. Designing a boat to survive these conditions would
be akin to designing a capsule to go over Niagara Falls.
IMHO, These photos demonstrate a gross failure of navigation and/or
judgment, not any defect in the boat. The boat may have been less seaworthy than
some of Bolger's designs, but the only difference in the end is that one
leaves shards of fiberglass, while the other leaves shards of plywood.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bruce@...writes:
> Which Bolger boats would have survived aI think that any vessel caught in a wave breaking against a shore is a
> similar experience, and how?
>
goner, the actual mechanism of final failure being a matter of little
interest. Whether or not this boat flooded by its cockpit, it was out of control and
effectively lost even before it first rolled and lost its mast. No matter what
the size or construction of a vessel in this predicament, there is only one
possible outcome - the boat or ship will be driven ashore and pounded to pieces
and/or buried in the sand. Designing a boat to survive these conditions would
be akin to designing a capsule to go over Niagara Falls.
IMHO, These photos demonstrate a gross failure of navigation and/or
judgment, not any defect in the boat. The boat may have been less seaworthy than
some of Bolger's designs, but the only difference in the end is that one
leaves shards of fiberglass, while the other leaves shards of plywood.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
An object lesson for everyone:
A: Stay away from bay entrances. We lost the
excursion boat Taki Too (it made the national news), with most
clients, crew and captain a few years ago. The skipper had about
20 years at the helm. Experience sometimes breeds over-confidence.
B: Check your charts - Identify all shoals and shallows in ocean
influenced waters. Running breakers in the photo make it a good bet
that the bottom changes shape there.
C: Ebb tides are death, especially at larger bodies: SF, Tillamook
and Columbia River Bar- a.k.a. 'Graveyard of the Pacific'.
Dave
A: Stay away from bay entrances. We lost the
excursion boat Taki Too (it made the national news), with most
clients, crew and captain a few years ago. The skipper had about
20 years at the helm. Experience sometimes breeds over-confidence.
B: Check your charts - Identify all shoals and shallows in ocean
influenced waters. Running breakers in the photo make it a good bet
that the bottom changes shape there.
C: Ebb tides are death, especially at larger bodies: SF, Tillamook
and Columbia River Bar- a.k.a. 'Graveyard of the Pacific'.
Dave
John B. Trussell wrote:
ashore while being overtaken by breaking waves. I don't know if we can
make sailing vessels that that could withstand that kind of treatment.
That boat didn't break. She was filled full of water and sank.
Phil's ocean crossing rowboat designs with the companionway closed are
designed to be capable of surviving a roll over but I don't think that
any of his vessels would withstand the beating that boat got any better
than it did.
The boat did its part. The people running her didn't. The Golden Gate is
a well charted waterway.
The Micro is an honest boat. If you're at sea in those breaking sea
conditions you are already under very much shortened sail. It is stormy
and you probly do have the companion closed. Instead, if, like those
people, you are in breaking waves close to shore while imitating a surf
boat, your boat will likely not break up any faster than theirs did.
Jim
> What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of life.Sad indeed. The boat appears to be under control and being steered
>
> *
>
>
ashore while being overtaken by breaking waves. I don't know if we can
make sailing vessels that that could withstand that kind of treatment.
That boat didn't break. She was filled full of water and sank.
Phil's ocean crossing rowboat designs with the companionway closed are
designed to be capable of surviving a roll over but I don't think that
any of his vessels would withstand the beating that boat got any better
than it did.
The boat did its part. The people running her didn't. The Golden Gate is
a well charted waterway.
The Micro is an honest boat. If you're at sea in those breaking sea
conditions you are already under very much shortened sail. It is stormy
and you probly do have the companion closed. Instead, if, like those
people, you are in breaking waves close to shore while imitating a surf
boat, your boat will likely not break up any faster than theirs did.
Jim
> *[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
What a sad series of pictures. Happily no loss of life.
The boat appears to be about 25 feet long with a fin keel. It was overtaken by a breaking wave which appears to be about 15 feet high. The result is an illustration of a wave induced broach--the boat pitches forward; bow digs in; wave action lifts the stern and the boat capsizes. Note that around picture 7 and 8 that the hull has accelerated and the sails are aback.
The hull self righted and appears to be floating on an even keel, broadside to the waves. It is rolled again and, again it rights itself, though subsequent pictures show it is down by the stern. The cockpit is completely flooded and I would guess that the open companionway allowed the cabin to flood as well. (perhaps the rudder was torn off during the second capsize, opening up the back of the hull?)
As Bolger has written, no boat is immune to capsize; if you doubt it, put a model boat in the surf at the beach or watch The Perfect Storm. A boat can be designed to recover from a 180 degree capsize (as this one did) and to be a corked bottle with a lot of bouyancy (assuming the "corked bottle" doesn't break).
Running with a large breaking wave is an invitation to disaster. I would expect a Micro or a Micro Navigator would broach and capsize under a 15 foot breaking wave. Assuming it held together and assuming the hatches were closed and secured, I would expect it to remain afloat, though it would almost certainly be dismasted.
Stay away from breaking waves!
John T
The boat appears to be about 25 feet long with a fin keel. It was overtaken by a breaking wave which appears to be about 15 feet high. The result is an illustration of a wave induced broach--the boat pitches forward; bow digs in; wave action lifts the stern and the boat capsizes. Note that around picture 7 and 8 that the hull has accelerated and the sails are aback.
The hull self righted and appears to be floating on an even keel, broadside to the waves. It is rolled again and, again it rights itself, though subsequent pictures show it is down by the stern. The cockpit is completely flooded and I would guess that the open companionway allowed the cabin to flood as well. (perhaps the rudder was torn off during the second capsize, opening up the back of the hull?)
As Bolger has written, no boat is immune to capsize; if you doubt it, put a model boat in the surf at the beach or watch The Perfect Storm. A boat can be designed to recover from a 180 degree capsize (as this one did) and to be a corked bottle with a lot of bouyancy (assuming the "corked bottle" doesn't break).
Running with a large breaking wave is an invitation to disaster. I would expect a Micro or a Micro Navigator would broach and capsize under a 15 foot breaking wave. Assuming it held together and assuming the hatches were closed and secured, I would expect it to remain afloat, though it would almost certainly be dismasted.
Stay away from breaking waves!
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:03 AM
Subject: [bolger] Capsize
http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htm
Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
in this surf. I notice how the sinking was caused
by water pouring into the cockpit and then the cabin,
and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
It also makes me more concious of sailing with
the cabin hatch closed versus open.
I also suspect that the force of the wave would
have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
How would have the full length fin keel have changed
the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
the force of the wave?
Which Bolger boats would have survived a
similar experience, and how?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Was the boat pictured in the channel?No, they were caught in the surf break
> Roger
at Fort Point, under the Golden Gate
Bridge.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=10&Z=10&X=2730&Y=20924&W=1
http://tinyurl.com/5pj3r
It is generally agreed, sailboats don't
belong there. A blood alcohol test
would be interesting.
Never-the-less, I would hope that
most Bolger boats would have
survived that capsize without
flooding and sinking.
I believe it was Chapman's "Piloting, Seamanship, and Small Boat Handling"
that suggests strongly that one STAY OUT OF BREAKING INLETS and accompanies
the advice with a photograph of a large Coast Guard Cutter being hurled thru
the air. I doubt any small sail boat could have survived the conditions
pictured.
Was the boat pictured in the channel? I'd always associated that sort of
surf with beaches, but I've heard tell of the bad effects when wind and
current are in opposition.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
that suggests strongly that one STAY OUT OF BREAKING INLETS and accompanies
the advice with a photograph of a large Coast Guard Cutter being hurled thru
the air. I doubt any small sail boat could have survived the conditions
pictured.
Was the boat pictured in the channel? I'd always associated that sort of
surf with beaches, but I've heard tell of the bad effects when wind and
current are in opposition.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htm
>
> Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
> just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
> in this surf. I notice how the sinking was caused
> by water pouring into the cockpit and then the cabin,
> and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
>
> It also makes me more conscious of sailing with
> the cabin hatch closed versus open.
>
> I also suspect that the force of the wave would
> have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
>
> How would have the full length fin keel have changed
> the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
> the force of the wave?
>
> Which Bolger boats would have survived a
> similar experience, and how?
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://www.sfsurvey.com/photos/sail/index.htm
Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
in this surf. I notice how the sinking was caused
by water pouring into the cockpit and then the cabin,
and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
It also makes me more concious of sailing with
the cabin hatch closed versus open.
I also suspect that the force of the wave would
have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
How would have the full length fin keel have changed
the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
the force of the wave?
Which Bolger boats would have survived a
similar experience, and how?
Seeing these photos makes me contemplate
just how my Micro Navigator would have reacted
in this surf. I notice how the sinking was caused
by water pouring into the cockpit and then the cabin,
and the Micro Navigator doesn't have a cockpit.
It also makes me more concious of sailing with
the cabin hatch closed versus open.
I also suspect that the force of the wave would
have broken off the Micro Navigator masts.
How would have the full length fin keel have changed
the tendency of the hull to slew sideways under
the force of the wave?
Which Bolger boats would have survived a
similar experience, and how?
When I got hooked on boatbuilding, Captjbturtle a "Bolger boat
junkie" advised me not to burn out on small boats so I started with
the Bolger Houseboat and really am happy with my first small boat
and looking forward to more and a magnificent burnout.
Lots of other boats but they don't count if they aren't a bolger.
junkie" advised me not to burn out on small boats so I started with
the Bolger Houseboat and really am happy with my first small boat
and looking forward to more and a magnificent burnout.
Lots of other boats but they don't count if they aren't a bolger.