Naval Jelly
Fritz has a picture of a Naval Jelly on an unlinked web page.
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/TlingitCanoe/
This Naval Jelly was built under the Guidance of Seth Macinko at a
college (or maybe High School looking at the paddlers hard to tell
anymore) somewhere on the East Coast. There is a great picture somewhere
of it coming through a second story window where it was built.
HJ
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/TlingitCanoe/
This Naval Jelly was built under the Guidance of Seth Macinko at a
college (or maybe High School looking at the paddlers hard to tell
anymore) somewhere on the East Coast. There is a great picture somewhere
of it coming through a second story window where it was built.
HJ
Thanks for the suggestions & observations on the best rigging. I do use
boom downhaul tightening on my two smaller balanced lug boats, but on
the 30-footer the tension is supplied entirely by the halyard and the
Barlow 25 two-speed winch used to hoist the sail. That seems plenty,
and the idea of a 385-square foot sail and 20-foot boom flopping around
in a 15 knot breeze and 3-foot chop while I try to tighten a downhaul
is not conducive to pleasant daydreams. The spars seem plenty stiff.
The mast is as designed and a maximum of 7.5 inches wide with 1.75 inch
walls, and the yard is also as designed, a 5/8-inch thick walls in a
tapered, hollow spar. The boom is my design but is of 3/4 inch walls
and about 3.5 inches wide. I'll keep a careful eye for bending the next
time out.
Gary
boom downhaul tightening on my two smaller balanced lug boats, but on
the 30-footer the tension is supplied entirely by the halyard and the
Barlow 25 two-speed winch used to hoist the sail. That seems plenty,
and the idea of a 385-square foot sail and 20-foot boom flopping around
in a 15 knot breeze and 3-foot chop while I try to tighten a downhaul
is not conducive to pleasant daydreams. The spars seem plenty stiff.
The mast is as designed and a maximum of 7.5 inches wide with 1.75 inch
walls, and the yard is also as designed, a 5/8-inch thick walls in a
tapered, hollow spar. The boom is my design but is of 3/4 inch walls
and about 3.5 inches wide. I'll keep a careful eye for bending the next
time out.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
> I believe that Bolger and others have noted, e.g. re Jesse Cooper,
> that balanced lugs actually sail as well upwind on the "bad tack" as
> on the "good tack". Having the mast nestled in the gore of the sail is
> probably better for lee side air flow than having the mast standing
> proud of a smoothly curved sail.
>
> I think I have also read that Sunfish are faster upwind on the "bad" tack.
>
> Peter
>
I've noted this phenomenon on both my balanced lug Windsprint and my
Sunfish. I think it's because the sail lying against the mast flattens it a
bit, taking some the draft out of the sail. On the 'bad' tack, both boats
heel less and make more better progress to windward as a result.
JB
I can see that moving the downhaul attachement without changing the
halyard moves the top of the sail forward and as it moves the bottom
of the sail aft, so the effect on helm may be moderate.
I believe that Bolger and others have noted, e.g. re Jesse Cooper,
that balanced lugs actually sail as well upwind on the "bad tack" as
on the "good tack". Having the past nestled in the gore of the sail is
probably better for lee side air flow than having the mast standing
proud of a smoothly curved sail.
I think I have also read that Sunfish are faster upwind on the "bad" tack.
Peter
halyard moves the top of the sail forward and as it moves the bottom
of the sail aft, so the effect on helm may be moderate.
I believe that Bolger and others have noted, e.g. re Jesse Cooper,
that balanced lugs actually sail as well upwind on the "bad tack" as
on the "good tack". Having the past nestled in the gore of the sail is
probably better for lee side air flow than having the mast standing
proud of a smoothly curved sail.
I think I have also read that Sunfish are faster upwind on the "bad" tack.
Peter
I have some experience with a balanced lug and none with a dipping lug.
What follows is my opinion and, therefore, suspect.
My experience has been that the key to getting upwind performance out of a
balanced lug is to keep the leading edge of the sail as tight as possible,
The way to achieve this is to hoist the sail and tighten the downhaul--a
lot. I don't know what kind of mechanical advantage you have in the
downhaul or how strong you are. (I'm an older man and I'm not as strong as
I was, so my next balanced lug will use an old Magic Box for the downhaul.
I suspect that this gives me a lot more mechanical advantage than I
actually need, but at least I won't have to strain!)
My experience too. With a very small sail, the spars must be oversized (or
done with carbon). Bowing of the yard or boom is doom, so to speak, for
windward performance.
Mast also must be stiff - no bowing.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What follows is my opinion and, therefore, suspect.
My experience has been that the key to getting upwind performance out of a
balanced lug is to keep the leading edge of the sail as tight as possible,
The way to achieve this is to hoist the sail and tighten the downhaul--a
lot. I don't know what kind of mechanical advantage you have in the
downhaul or how strong you are. (I'm an older man and I'm not as strong as
I was, so my next balanced lug will use an old Magic Box for the downhaul.
I suspect that this gives me a lot more mechanical advantage than I
actually need, but at least I won't have to strain!)
My experience too. With a very small sail, the spars must be oversized (or
done with carbon). Bowing of the yard or boom is doom, so to speak, for
windward performance.
Mast also must be stiff - no bowing.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have some experience with a balanced lug and none with a dipping lug. What follows is my opinion and, therefore, suspect.
My experience has been that the key to getting upwind performance out of a balanced lug is to keep the leading edge of the sail as tight as possible, The way to achieve this is to hoist the sail and tighten the downhaul--a lot. I don't know what kind of mechanical advantage you have in the downhaul or how strong you are. (I'm an older man and I'm not as strong as I was, so my next balanced lug will use an old Magic Box for the downhaul. I suspect that this gives me a lot more mechanical advantage than I actually need, but at least I won't have to strain!)
If you move the point of downhaul attachment forward, you will do a little more than move the boom aft. One of the advantages of a balanced lug is that it is more or less self vanging. This is because the leading edge of the sail holds the boom down. If you move the boom aft, you will rotate the sail around the halyard attachment point on the yard, causing the yard to peak higher, and this may produce a longer leading edge and improved windward performance.
When a balanced lug is fully hoisted, it is held against the mast by the tension on the halyard and the downhaul. This tension doesn't exist while the sail is being hoisted or lowered, and the sail can blow in all directions. I made a couple of oversized grommets which I place over the mast. One grommet is shackled to the halyard and the yard; the other is shackled to the downhaul and the boom. The grommets keep the sail from blowing around as it is being raised or lowered. While experimenting with downhaul attachment points, a loop of line around the boom and mast should keep things under control while you reattach the downhaul in its new location.
As Pete Culler was fond of saying, "Old ways work." Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people left who know how the old ways work, so we have to experiment. Good luck and let us know what you find out.
John T
My experience has been that the key to getting upwind performance out of a balanced lug is to keep the leading edge of the sail as tight as possible, The way to achieve this is to hoist the sail and tighten the downhaul--a lot. I don't know what kind of mechanical advantage you have in the downhaul or how strong you are. (I'm an older man and I'm not as strong as I was, so my next balanced lug will use an old Magic Box for the downhaul. I suspect that this gives me a lot more mechanical advantage than I actually need, but at least I won't have to strain!)
If you move the point of downhaul attachment forward, you will do a little more than move the boom aft. One of the advantages of a balanced lug is that it is more or less self vanging. This is because the leading edge of the sail holds the boom down. If you move the boom aft, you will rotate the sail around the halyard attachment point on the yard, causing the yard to peak higher, and this may produce a longer leading edge and improved windward performance.
When a balanced lug is fully hoisted, it is held against the mast by the tension on the halyard and the downhaul. This tension doesn't exist while the sail is being hoisted or lowered, and the sail can blow in all directions. I made a couple of oversized grommets which I place over the mast. One grommet is shackled to the halyard and the yard; the other is shackled to the downhaul and the boom. The grommets keep the sail from blowing around as it is being raised or lowered. While experimenting with downhaul attachment points, a loop of line around the boom and mast should keep things under control while you reattach the downhaul in its new location.
As Pete Culler was fond of saying, "Old ways work." Unfortunately, there are not a lot of people left who know how the old ways work, so we have to experiment. Good luck and let us know what you find out.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: gbship
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:03 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Balanced lug photos
It has weather helm, but not too much. However, that's not the
problem. When I first converted from a dipping lug to a balanced lug,
I put the boom downhaul where it could keep the same amount of the
foot forward of the mast as had been with the dipping lug. Performance
reaching and running was good (in fact, better running with the boom),
but windward performance was lackluster. An examination of the dipping
and balanced lug chapters in Bolger's book on 100 sail rigs showed
that the balanced lugger had less of its foot forward of the mast that
the dipping lugger. The downhaul was moved forward (moving more of the
foot aft of the mast) and windward performance improved. although
still not as good as the dipping lugger. I was talking about this with
Chudk Leinweber of Duckworks Magazine a couple weeks ago and he said
on one of his balanced luggers, he experimented moving the downhaul
fore and aft and seemed to find a magic spot that gave the best
performance. I want to experiment with my 30 footer, but wanted to get
some more input. It's hard moving the downhaul when the sail is down
because there's almost no deck room and it's awkward shifting the boom
back & forth. If the sail is up, one has to be careful not to lose
control of a 385 square foot sail and 20 foot boom.... Hence, before I
start fiddling with this, I wanted some input from the list & was
curious if anyone had any thoughts based on the pics. My initial
thought is I want to move the downhaul about a foot forward...
BTW, a side avenue of all this speculation has been some pondering
about the poor performance of a dipping lugger on the "bad" tack.
Since sliding the foot aft improved the balanced lugger, I'm wondering
if instead of dipping the sail, if shifting the foot to the windward
rail and back toward the mast would improve the bad tack. Obviously,
bringing the tack to the mast and making it a standing lug would help,
but on a sail cut to be a dipping lug, the clew would be so high that
the sheeting angles would be poor, and the weather helm would probably
be huge. Anyway, just some idle speculation.
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
>
> > Do you think the boom should be further
> > aft? I've never quite gotten the windward performance
> > think I should ...
>
> Gary,
>
> I think one can't say from pictures. The question is do you have
> weather helm, or lee helm, and how much.
>
> Peter
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It has weather helm, but not too much. However, that's not the
problem. When I first converted from a dipping lug to a balanced lug,
I put the boom downhaul where it could keep the same amount of the
foot forward of the mast as had been with the dipping lug. Performance
reaching and running was good (in fact, better running with the boom),
but windward performance was lackluster. An examination of the dipping
and balanced lug chapters in Bolger's book on 100 sail rigs showed
that the balanced lugger had less of its foot forward of the mast that
the dipping lugger. The downhaul was moved forward (moving more of the
foot aft of the mast) and windward performance improved. although
still not as good as the dipping lugger. I was talking about this with
Chudk Leinweber of Duckworks Magazine a couple weeks ago and he said
on one of his balanced luggers, he experimented moving the downhaul
fore and aft and seemed to find a magic spot that gave the best
performance. I want to experiment with my 30 footer, but wanted to get
some more input. It's hard moving the downhaul when the sail is down
because there's almost no deck room and it's awkward shifting the boom
back & forth. If the sail is up, one has to be careful not to lose
control of a 385 square foot sail and 20 foot boom.... Hence, before I
start fiddling with this, I wanted some input from the list & was
curious if anyone had any thoughts based on the pics. My initial
thought is I want to move the downhaul about a foot forward...
BTW, a side avenue of all this speculation has been some pondering
about the poor performance of a dipping lugger on the "bad" tack.
Since sliding the foot aft improved the balanced lugger, I'm wondering
if instead of dipping the sail, if shifting the foot to the windward
rail and back toward the mast would improve the bad tack. Obviously,
bringing the tack to the mast and making it a standing lug would help,
but on a sail cut to be a dipping lug, the clew would be so high that
the sheeting angles would be poor, and the weather helm would probably
be huge. Anyway, just some idle speculation.
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
problem. When I first converted from a dipping lug to a balanced lug,
I put the boom downhaul where it could keep the same amount of the
foot forward of the mast as had been with the dipping lug. Performance
reaching and running was good (in fact, better running with the boom),
but windward performance was lackluster. An examination of the dipping
and balanced lug chapters in Bolger's book on 100 sail rigs showed
that the balanced lugger had less of its foot forward of the mast that
the dipping lugger. The downhaul was moved forward (moving more of the
foot aft of the mast) and windward performance improved. although
still not as good as the dipping lugger. I was talking about this with
Chudk Leinweber of Duckworks Magazine a couple weeks ago and he said
on one of his balanced luggers, he experimented moving the downhaul
fore and aft and seemed to find a magic spot that gave the best
performance. I want to experiment with my 30 footer, but wanted to get
some more input. It's hard moving the downhaul when the sail is down
because there's almost no deck room and it's awkward shifting the boom
back & forth. If the sail is up, one has to be careful not to lose
control of a 385 square foot sail and 20 foot boom.... Hence, before I
start fiddling with this, I wanted some input from the list & was
curious if anyone had any thoughts based on the pics. My initial
thought is I want to move the downhaul about a foot forward...
BTW, a side avenue of all this speculation has been some pondering
about the poor performance of a dipping lugger on the "bad" tack.
Since sliding the foot aft improved the balanced lugger, I'm wondering
if instead of dipping the sail, if shifting the foot to the windward
rail and back toward the mast would improve the bad tack. Obviously,
bringing the tack to the mast and making it a standing lug would help,
but on a sail cut to be a dipping lug, the clew would be so high that
the sheeting angles would be poor, and the weather helm would probably
be huge. Anyway, just some idle speculation.
Gary
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
>
> > Do you think the boom should be further
> > aft? I've never quite gotten the windward performance
> > think I should ...
>
> Gary,
>
> I think one can't say from pictures. The question is do you have
> weather helm, or lee helm, and how much.
>
> Peter
> Do you think the boom should be furtherGary,
> aft? I've never quite gotten the windward performance
> think I should ...
I think one can't say from pictures. The question is do you have
weather helm, or lee helm, and how much.
Peter
After complaining for 18 years that no one had taken good "action"
photos of LeDulcimer, last weekend I finally got some that were shot a
month ago. They're scanned from photos instead of netatives, but the
best I've had. They're posted on Bolger1 photos, under balanced lug
reefing. These show the new cabin and split stern; the shot that was
posted earlier shows the old, shorter and lower cabin. Looks sleeker
though, but the new cabin doesn't look clunky like I was afraid it
would.
One questions for the group. Do you think the boom should be further
aft? I've never quite gotten the windward performance I think I should
and suspect the boom downhaul is too far aft. Comments welcome...
Gary Blankenship
photos of LeDulcimer, last weekend I finally got some that were shot a
month ago. They're scanned from photos instead of netatives, but the
best I've had. They're posted on Bolger1 photos, under balanced lug
reefing. These show the new cabin and split stern; the shot that was
posted earlier shows the old, shorter and lower cabin. Looks sleeker
though, but the new cabin doesn't look clunky like I was afraid it
would.
One questions for the group. Do you think the boom should be further
aft? I've never quite gotten the windward performance I think I should
and suspect the boom downhaul is too far aft. Comments welcome...
Gary Blankenship