Re: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake stuff
Howard--New factory built boats are extremely expensive. However, used
fiberglass boats are amizingly inexpensive, particularly since the price of
a used boat generally includes a trailer and sails (and sometimes a motor,
anchor, compass, and other gear). It may be possible to build a hull for
less than the price of a used boat, but by the time you factor in the cost
of all the stuff that comes with a used boat, the economics favor the used
boat over the owner built boat.
The logic of buying a used boat only works if you can find a used boat of
the type you want. If you want a different boat, you pretty much have to
have it built by someone or build it yourself. PCB has made a career out of
designing different boats and selling plans for them. I've built some of
his designs (Thomaston Galley, Scooner, and Sweet Pea) and I am unaware of
any commercially available boat, new or used, which is comparable to these
designs.
As for the reward, I find that taking a pile of wood and turning it into a
boat which meets my wants is a pretty good reward. Sailing in a boat and
saying to yourself, "This is my boat, built the way I want it, and it is
good!" is a reward. And when people ask where you got the boat, it is a
reward to say "I built it."
The only problem with building boats is that it becomes addictive. I
started nearly 40 years ago and project number 10 is currently in the fill
and sand stage in the garage.
John T
fiberglass boats are amizingly inexpensive, particularly since the price of
a used boat generally includes a trailer and sails (and sometimes a motor,
anchor, compass, and other gear). It may be possible to build a hull for
less than the price of a used boat, but by the time you factor in the cost
of all the stuff that comes with a used boat, the economics favor the used
boat over the owner built boat.
The logic of buying a used boat only works if you can find a used boat of
the type you want. If you want a different boat, you pretty much have to
have it built by someone or build it yourself. PCB has made a career out of
designing different boats and selling plans for them. I've built some of
his designs (Thomaston Galley, Scooner, and Sweet Pea) and I am unaware of
any commercially available boat, new or used, which is comparable to these
designs.
As for the reward, I find that taking a pile of wood and turning it into a
boat which meets my wants is a pretty good reward. Sailing in a boat and
saying to yourself, "This is my boat, built the way I want it, and it is
good!" is a reward. And when people ask where you got the boat, it is a
reward to say "I built it."
The only problem with building boats is that it becomes addictive. I
started nearly 40 years ago and project number 10 is currently in the fill
and sand stage in the garage.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 11:37 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake stuff
> Another motivation is the prospect of saving money compared with buying
> a new boat -- but maybe that's part of what you had in mind when you
> said "rewarding", John.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...>
> wrote:
> > Ultimately, there are only two valid reasons to build a boat. 1) If
> you
> > want a different boat, you may have to build it. 2) Boatbuilding is a
> > pleasant, enjoyable, rewarding experience.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.6/33 - Release Date: 6/28/2005
>
>
Another motivation is the prospect of saving money compared with buying
a new boat -- but maybe that's part of what you had in mind when you
said "rewarding", John.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...>
wrote:
a new boat -- but maybe that's part of what you had in mind when you
said "rewarding", John.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell" <John.Trussell@w...>
wrote:
> Ultimately, there are only two valid reasons to build a boat. 1) Ifyou
> want a different boat, you may have to build it. 2) Boatbuilding is a
> pleasant, enjoyable, rewarding experience.
Lapstrake, carval, and strip plank boats are normally built over a set of
molds which are fastened to a ladder type frame. Stitch and glue boats are
normally assembled without molds on a ladder frame, relying on accurately
cut panels and a couple of frames to create the shape of the boat. One of
the advantages of stitch and glue is the saving of the time and material
necessary to build the ladder frame and molds. A significant disadvantage
of stitch and glue is that the system has many opportunities for error and
the lines of the finished boat may differ significantly from the lines drawn
by the designer.
On many boats, some of the molds remain in the boat as solid frames or
bulkheads.
There is no best way or worst to build a boat. Some ways are better suited
to certain uses (carvel boats don't fair well if they are "dry sailed", and
it is not possible to get a hollow garboard in sheet plywood boats, for
example). Some ways require more (or less) time to assemble a hull, but a
huge amount of time will be consumed by painting, construction of spars,
blades, interior and fitting out. This time will be required regardless of
the way the hull is built.
Ultimately, there are only two valid reasons to build a boat. 1) If you
want a different boat, you may have to build it. 2) Boatbuilding is a
pleasant, enjoyable, rewarding experience.
Do it your way and have fun.
John T
molds which are fastened to a ladder type frame. Stitch and glue boats are
normally assembled without molds on a ladder frame, relying on accurately
cut panels and a couple of frames to create the shape of the boat. One of
the advantages of stitch and glue is the saving of the time and material
necessary to build the ladder frame and molds. A significant disadvantage
of stitch and glue is that the system has many opportunities for error and
the lines of the finished boat may differ significantly from the lines drawn
by the designer.
On many boats, some of the molds remain in the boat as solid frames or
bulkheads.
There is no best way or worst to build a boat. Some ways are better suited
to certain uses (carvel boats don't fair well if they are "dry sailed", and
it is not possible to get a hollow garboard in sheet plywood boats, for
example). Some ways require more (or less) time to assemble a hull, but a
huge amount of time will be consumed by painting, construction of spars,
blades, interior and fitting out. This time will be required regardless of
the way the hull is built.
Ultimately, there are only two valid reasons to build a boat. 1) If you
want a different boat, you may have to build it. 2) Boatbuilding is a
pleasant, enjoyable, rewarding experience.
Do it your way and have fun.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake stuff
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > > I'm not quite sure how you build a lapstrake boat without benefit
> of molds
> > > Keep us informed.
> > > John T
> >
> > Plywood frames substitute for the molds,
>
> Aren't the plywood frames and molds the same thing?
>
> They are only frames if they stay in the boat once it is finished is
> my understanding.
>
> The boat I would MOST like to see completed in plywood lapstrake is
> the 25 foot Chebacco. I would sell my soul to the devil to see one of
> those in 3D if'n it wasn't already sold to Lestat:-)
>
> I figure two guys could form a partnership and build two hulls while
> working together. That way you only need one set of molds and one
> strongback and one building site. In fact build three hulls and sell
> one to recover a part of your costs or better still maybe have three
> partners.
>
> For example it would be interesting to have Bruce Hallman and Bruce
> Hector and Peter Lenihan working together.
>
> And Susan and David could record it all on film and make a mint on the
> DVD sales thus financing their I60's
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
>
>
Nutshell is a Joel White design. Plans are available from WoodenBoat
for $75.00.
Howard
for $75.00.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=4558964782
>
> Can anybody determine if this 'nutshell pram' is a Bolger design?
> ebay item 4558964782
>
> It is billed as 'Payson Boats', so I suspect it was build by Dynamite?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Plans and kits are sold through The Woodenboat Mag/Store.
I think Dynamite teaches a course at The Woodenboat School so there
might be a connection to that.
Seems to me the designer was Joel White but not sure.
http://www.znw.com/homepage/nutshell.htm
Nels
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4558964782
>Dynamite?
> Can anybody determine if this 'nutshell pram' is a Bolger design?
> ebay item 4558964782
>
> It is billed as 'Payson Boats', so I suspect it was build by
Plans and kits are sold through The Woodenboat Mag/Store.
I think Dynamite teaches a course at The Woodenboat School so there
might be a connection to that.
Seems to me the designer was Joel White but not sure.
http://www.znw.com/homepage/nutshell.htm
Nels
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4558964782
Can anybody determine if this 'nutshell pram' is a Bolger design?
ebay item 4558964782
It is billed as 'Payson Boats', so I suspect it was build by Dynamite?
Can anybody determine if this 'nutshell pram' is a Bolger design?
ebay item 4558964782
It is billed as 'Payson Boats', so I suspect it was build by Dynamite?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donm172001" <Don_Maurer@m...> wrote:
assembly pant is opening in Hungary in partnership with Suzuki who are
really pushing into the European market with their small SUV.
A couple of friends have them in Norway. They are sort of looked at as
the "poor mans" Subaru - cheaper but not nearly as dependable. They
are comfortable to ride in though and very sharp looking.
Nels
>I believe the Euro ones are assembled in Belgium and a new big
> " Also the
> > Outback is really popular - because of the rally success of that
> > brand, the name which escapes me now. "
>
> That would be Subaru. Made in Indiana - USA!
>
assembly pant is opening in Hungary in partnership with Suzuki who are
really pushing into the European market with their small SUV.
A couple of friends have them in Norway. They are sort of looked at as
the "poor mans" Subaru - cheaper but not nearly as dependable. They
are comfortable to ride in though and very sharp looking.
Nels
For those that haven't noticed yet, Paul McLellan has posted
a fantastic 'cruise' report of his Bolger Houseboat #481 on
Duckworks...what a cool boat.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/projects/houseboat481/index.cfm
a fantastic 'cruise' report of his Bolger Houseboat #481 on
Duckworks...what a cool boat.
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/projects/houseboat481/index.cfm
" Also the
> Outback is really popular - because of the rally success of thatThat would be Subaru. Made in Indiana - USA!
> brand, the name which escapes me now. "
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > There is a very long tradition of boats being consumable items,
> > [I think I recall Bolger writing] that the 'classic' New England
> > workboat was expected to have a reasonable lifetime similar to
> > a modern day automobile. Boats with lifetimes longer than that
> > are extraordinary, IMO.
>
> I think he also mentions that the average life span of sailors was
> much shorter as well:-)
>
> A lot of the ships were lost in storms and wrecking on rocks and
lee
> shores since there was no radar or detailed charts and navigation
> aids reliable engines and radios like today. Also there where few
> safety standards to protect the lives of the seafarers.
>
> And then there was the "contract out to the lowest bidder"
mentality
> perhaps then as well?
>
> I don't believe the American philosophy is universal either based
on
> my travels in Europe at least. There - quality, reliability and
> maintenance are considered to be more economical in the long run.
>
> This is evident in both the vehicles on the road and the boats on
> the water. For years now the Mercedes Benz was considered the
> cheapest taxi cab to run year in and year out.
>
> I was amazed to discover that Toyota is now considered the best buy
> in almost every catagory of vehicle. Mercedes, BMW, Volvo and Saab
> now rank lower even in the opinion of the Scandinavians! Also the
> Outback is really popular - because of the rally success of that
> brand, the name which escapes me now.
>
> "Yappanese yunk" cars where considered a yoke twenty years ago:-)
>
> Having an American vehicle is a sign that you have a lot of money
to
> spend.
>
> Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
much shorter as well:-)
A lot of the ships were lost in storms and wrecking on rocks and lee
shores since there was no radar or detailed charts and navigation
aids reliable engines and radios like today. Also there where few
safety standards to protect the lives of the seafarers.
And then there was the "contract out to the lowest bidder" mentality
perhaps then as well?
I don't believe the American philosophy is universal either based on
my travels in Europe at least. There - quality, reliability and
maintenance are considered to be more economical in the long run.
This is evident in both the vehicles on the road and the boats on
the water. For years now the Mercedes Benz was considered the
cheapest taxi cab to run year in and year out.
I was amazed to discover that Toyota is now considered the best buy
in almost every catagory of vehicle. Mercedes, BMW, Volvo and Saab
now rank lower even in the opinion of the Scandinavians! Also the
Outback is really popular - because of the rally success of that
brand, the name which escapes me now.
"Yappanese yunk" cars where considered a yoke twenty years ago:-)
Having an American vehicle is a sign that you have a lot of money to
spend.
Nels
> There is a very long tradition of boats being consumable items,I think he also mentions that the average life span of sailors was
> [I think I recall Bolger writing] that the 'classic' New England
> workboat was expected to have a reasonable lifetime similar to
> a modern day automobile. Boats with lifetimes longer than that
> are extraordinary, IMO.
much shorter as well:-)
A lot of the ships were lost in storms and wrecking on rocks and lee
shores since there was no radar or detailed charts and navigation
aids reliable engines and radios like today. Also there where few
safety standards to protect the lives of the seafarers.
And then there was the "contract out to the lowest bidder" mentality
perhaps then as well?
I don't believe the American philosophy is universal either based on
my travels in Europe at least. There - quality, reliability and
maintenance are considered to be more economical in the long run.
This is evident in both the vehicles on the road and the boats on
the water. For years now the Mercedes Benz was considered the
cheapest taxi cab to run year in and year out.
I was amazed to discover that Toyota is now considered the best buy
in almost every catagory of vehicle. Mercedes, BMW, Volvo and Saab
now rank lower even in the opinion of the Scandinavians! Also the
Outback is really popular - because of the rally success of that
brand, the name which escapes me now.
"Yappanese yunk" cars where considered a yoke twenty years ago:-)
Having an American vehicle is a sign that you have a lot of money to
spend.
Nels
>Cheap stuff requires more maintenance,This in only true if you want it to last long.
Thouigh even my old cheapo Roar, luaun plywood, polyester resin,
remains 'alive' after eight years with only simple maintence.
The reason I don't use it is not that it doesn't work, but rather that
I have other boats to use.
There is a very long tradition of boats being consumable items,
[I think I recall Bolger writing] that the 'classic' New England
workboat was expected to have a reasonable lifetime similar to
a modern day automobile. Boats with lifetimes longer than that
are extraordinary, IMO.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@k...> wrote:
might not be so cheap after all. And then there is the safety and
comfort factor to consider as well.
Personally I love wood, but not the smell of musty rotten wood, nor
the water and other things that it seems to attract.
Another thing to consider is that good quality materials require
less protection from the elements and may be cheaper in the long
run. Buying good plywood is an excellent investment even if you
never build a boat with it:-) Same with good quality lumber.
The longer one waits the lower the quality of even the cheapest and
mid-range stuff gets.
Nels
>>results
> I've used good and bad quality materials, and been happy with my
> for both. Cheap stuff requires more maintenance, but putteringaround is
> why I do it, not for the pleasure of leaning back with a self-satisfied
> air knowing I spent more money to avoid doing the work thatbrought me to
> the project in the first place.I agree that "Cheap stuff requires more maintenance." and in the end
>
might not be so cheap after all. And then there is the safety and
comfort factor to consider as well.
Personally I love wood, but not the smell of musty rotten wood, nor
the water and other things that it seems to attract.
Another thing to consider is that good quality materials require
less protection from the elements and may be cheaper in the long
run. Buying good plywood is an excellent investment even if you
never build a boat with it:-) Same with good quality lumber.
The longer one waits the lower the quality of even the cheapest and
mid-range stuff gets.
Nels
> I wonder if anyone has ever built a boat and after a couple of yearsIn general, people are remarkably good at avoiding regret; we adapt to
> of use said to themselves:
>
> "Shee-it! I wished I had used cheaper materials when I built this
> boat!"
what we have reasonably well (for example, after just a few months, people
with spinal cord injuries, and people with very large lottery winnings are
pretyy much back to their normal level of happiness. Why should something
as simple as a minor difference in quality of a play toy be any different?
I've used good and bad quality materials, and been happy with my results
for both. Cheap stuff requires more maintenance, but puttering around is
why I do it, not for the pleasure of leaning back with a self-satisfied
air knowing I spent more money to avoid doing the work that brought me to
the project in the first place.
Chris Crandallcrandall@...(785) 864-4131
Department of Psychology University of Kansas Lawrence, KS 66045
I have data convincingly disconfirming the Duhem-Quine hypothesis.
>the lickity-spit-I-wanna-be-in the-water-yesterday approachI am not so one dimensional!
I also want my boats to be cheap, pretty and plentiful. <g>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
> > I would go further and say that any boat you have more than 30-40
> > hours of labor into should use top quality marine or MDO. Only if
> > the boat or technique was experimental would inexpensive materials
> > be justified with more labor.
> > > >
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> I wonder if anyone has ever built a boat and after a couple of years
> of use said to themselves:
> "Shee-it! I wished I had used cheaper materials when I built this
> boat!"
I haven't analyzed the prices of different grades of plywood, but my
point was more like, "If I have to spend a fortune on epoxy and marine
ply and months or years of my time, can I really justify not spending
the small extra time it would take to build a more complex hull form
that would reward my effort at a higher rate in terms of pride,
admiration and resale value?"
-Peter Belenky
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
words,''GEEZUZ,I wished I had worked more overtimes!''.............
Peter L.
> I wonder if anyone has ever built a boat and after a couple of yearsor like the fellow on his death bed uttering his final
> of use said to themselves:
>
> "Shee-it! I wished I had used cheaper materials when I built this
> boat!"
>
> Nels
words,''GEEZUZ,I wished I had worked more overtimes!''.............
Peter L.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
I would sell my soul to the devil if'n it wasn't already sold to
Lestat:-)
You too, eh?
> For example it would be interesting to have Bruce Hallman and
Bruce
> Hector and Peter Lenihan working together.
>
> And Susan and David could record it all on film and make a mint on
the
> DVD sales thus financing their I60's
>
> Nels
Nels, I fear Bruce Hallman would be the only one to finish his boat
on time since I would have to either grow a set of eyes on the back
of my head or be forever looking over my shoulder to keep tabs on my
Port-N-Beer stash which Le Baron de Kingston would raid at
random...ooooohhhh that raskle!........quick there he goes
agin!.....see?!Whaddyi tell ya!
The other problem would be checking to make sure Le Baron does
indeed build the Bolger Chebacco 25 and not the Hector Chebacco 25-
aircraft carrier-rocket-launcher-break-apart-super-tanker and
amphibian tennis court in lapstrake :-D
As for David and Susan, it would be a nice dream to make a mint but
better yet to get the final and complete set of I-60 plans,film THAT
and make a real mint :-)
And yes,Bruce Hallman, after an uncharacteristically(is that really
a word?) longish 121.5 hour building stretch,would be out there
sailing gleefully away from us two eternally thirsty beer swilling
squabbling Cannucks ;-)
hmmmmmm......perhaps not such a bad idea afterall!
Sincerely,
Peter,le petite mouton gris,Lenihan,fully hydrated,per doctors
orders,to keep heat-stroke,sun-stroke and almost-broke safely at
bay,from along the jungle...............
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
The first is more
that...size...may also be viewed as a measure of time.That is,it
would be a crying shame if one's wee 9 foot dink,which one laboured
over on-n-off for say several years,would begin to transform itself
into compost mere weeks or months after its' launching.
However,if one is inclined to adopt the lickity-spit-I-wanna-be-in-
the-water-yesterday approach to small boatbuilding,for which Bruce
Hallman is the undisputed KING,it is difficult to agrue with his
success.....so long as longevity is not anywhere near one's priority
list.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,too much a whimp to try Bruce's approach but only too
happy to view his experiments here on the group,from along the
sweltering(34C. + 99.999999999% humidity!) banks of the St.Amazonion
jungle river....or is it the St.Lawrence jungle river?...........
wrote:
The first is more
> complex, I think. There is the risk that poor materials will fallshould be
> apart quickly, wasting the labor time involved. Any plywood boat of
> substantial size, e.g. Black Skimmer, Jochems, Skillygallee,
> built of the best plywood that the can be obtained and afforded.IMHO.
>Whole heartedly agree and would hazard to further add
> Peter
that...size...may also be viewed as a measure of time.That is,it
would be a crying shame if one's wee 9 foot dink,which one laboured
over on-n-off for say several years,would begin to transform itself
into compost mere weeks or months after its' launching.
However,if one is inclined to adopt the lickity-spit-I-wanna-be-in-
the-water-yesterday approach to small boatbuilding,for which Bruce
Hallman is the undisputed KING,it is difficult to agrue with his
success.....so long as longevity is not anywhere near one's priority
list.
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,too much a whimp to try Bruce's approach but only too
happy to view his experiments here on the group,from along the
sweltering(34C. + 99.999999999% humidity!) banks of the St.Amazonion
jungle river....or is it the St.Lawrence jungle river?...........
There you go Nels, clearer statement and lot fewer words than I used.
HJ
Nels wrote:
HJ
Nels wrote:
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
>
>
>>I would go further and say that any boat you have more than 30-40
>>
>>
>hours
>
>
>>of labor into should use top quality marine or MDO. Only if the boat
>>
>>
>or
>
>
>>technique was experimental would inexpensive materials be justified
>>
>>
>with
>
>
>>more labor.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I wonder if anyone has ever built a boat and after a couple of years
>of use said to themselves:
>
>"Shee-it! I wished I had used cheaper materials when I built this
>boat!"
>
>Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
of use said to themselves:
"Shee-it! I wished I had used cheaper materials when I built this
boat!"
Nels
> I would go further and say that any boat you have more than 30-40hours
> of labor into should use top quality marine or MDO. Only if the boator
> technique was experimental would inexpensive materials be justifiedwith
> more labor.I wonder if anyone has ever built a boat and after a couple of years
>
of use said to themselves:
"Shee-it! I wished I had used cheaper materials when I built this
boat!"
Nels
I would go further and say that any boat you have more than 30-40 hours
of labor into should use top quality marine or MDO. Only if the boat or
technique was experimental would inexpensive materials be justified with
more labor.
We don't have quite the choices that others in the lower 48 have at
lumber stores. I can tell you AC has been a huge disappointment the last
couple of times I have used it in boat building. Unless your approach is
that whatever you are building is totally disposable you should use the
good quality stuff.
That being said, if I acquire a boat that requires a tender then I will
get a couple sheets of AC and have my neighbor Fritz Funk come over some
Saturday morning after breakfast and we will throw together an Elegant
Punt, I figure 6 hours. After a nap I will break out the spray gun an
prime it with Killz and then shoot some left over Latex and figure it a
day well spent. I will have less than a $100 invested in a tender
(probably less than $75) and I won't care what beach I drag it over or
if I have to cut it loose in bad weather. If it lasts 2 seasons it will
have gone one year more than expected.
HJ
pvanderwaart wrote:
of labor into should use top quality marine or MDO. Only if the boat or
technique was experimental would inexpensive materials be justified with
more labor.
We don't have quite the choices that others in the lower 48 have at
lumber stores. I can tell you AC has been a huge disappointment the last
couple of times I have used it in boat building. Unless your approach is
that whatever you are building is totally disposable you should use the
good quality stuff.
That being said, if I acquire a boat that requires a tender then I will
get a couple sheets of AC and have my neighbor Fritz Funk come over some
Saturday morning after breakfast and we will throw together an Elegant
Punt, I figure 6 hours. After a nap I will break out the spray gun an
prime it with Killz and then shoot some left over Latex and figure it a
day well spent. I will have less than a $100 invested in a tender
(probably less than $75) and I won't care what beach I drag it over or
if I have to cut it loose in bad weather. If it lasts 2 seasons it will
have gone one year more than expected.
HJ
pvanderwaart wrote:
>>Conclusions that follow are:
>>
>>1) High-cost, high-quality materials should almost never be used in a
>>plywood box.
>>
>>2) It's almost never worthwhile to install much interior cabinetry or
>>built-in plumbing and engineering.
>>
>>3) It's almost never worthwhile to hire a professional at
>>professional wages to build one.
>>
>>
>
>Bolger has made points two and three in his writing. The first is more
>complex, I think. There is the risk that poor materials will fall
>apart quickly, wasting the labor time involved. Any plywood boat of
>substantial size, e.g. Black Skimmer, Jochems, Skillygallee, should be
>built of the best plywood that the can be obtained and afforded. IMHO.
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
They are only frames if they stay in the boat once it is finished is
my understanding.
The boat I would MOST like to see completed in plywood lapstrake is
the 25 foot Chebacco. I would sell my soul to the devil to see one of
those in 3D if'n it wasn't already sold to Lestat:-)
I figure two guys could form a partnership and build two hulls while
working together. That way you only need one set of molds and one
strongback and one building site. In fact build three hulls and sell
one to recover a part of your costs or better still maybe have three
partners.
For example it would be interesting to have Bruce Hallman and Bruce
Hector and Peter Lenihan working together.
And Susan and David could record it all on film and make a mint on the
DVD sales thus financing their I60's
Nels
> > I'm not quite sure how you build a lapstrake boat without benefitof molds
> > Keep us informed.Aren't the plywood frames and molds the same thing?
> > John T
>
> Plywood frames substitute for the molds,
They are only frames if they stay in the boat once it is finished is
my understanding.
The boat I would MOST like to see completed in plywood lapstrake is
the 25 foot Chebacco. I would sell my soul to the devil to see one of
those in 3D if'n it wasn't already sold to Lestat:-)
I figure two guys could form a partnership and build two hulls while
working together. That way you only need one set of molds and one
strongback and one building site. In fact build three hulls and sell
one to recover a part of your costs or better still maybe have three
partners.
For example it would be interesting to have Bruce Hallman and Bruce
Hector and Peter Lenihan working together.
And Susan and David could record it all on film and make a mint on the
DVD sales thus financing their I60's
Nels
A few years ago I was contemplating building "Spartina" Mr Bolgers
larger catboat. I decided that it was more than I wanted to tackle at
the time but I really wanted to do a clinker hull. I approached Mr
Bolger about developing "Bobcat" as a clinker hull. As you can imagine
I got a very sharp reply to get real (but not in those words). I did
build it but as drawn. I do like your boat.
Bob Chamberland
larger catboat. I decided that it was more than I wanted to tackle at
the time but I really wanted to do a clinker hull. I approached Mr
Bolger about developing "Bobcat" as a clinker hull. As you can imagine
I got a very sharp reply to get real (but not in those words). I did
build it but as drawn. I do like your boat.
Bob Chamberland
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > I'm not quite sure how you build a lapstrake boat without benefit
of molds
> > Keep us informed.
> > John T
>
> Plywood frames substitute for the molds,
> a method I first saw with Bolger's design Spur II.
> Here are pictures from earlier this month of my attempt
> which Harry James was asking about.
>
> I calculated the frame and strake shapes using Hulls.exe.
>
>http://community.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
> I'm not quite sure how you build a lapstrake boat without benefit of moldsPlywood frames substitute for the molds,
> Keep us informed.
> John T
a method I first saw with Bolger's design Spur II.
Here are pictures from earlier this month of my attempt
which Harry James was asking about.
I calculated the frame and strake shapes using Hulls.exe.
http://community.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
I reiterate, if you want to build a lapstrake version of a stitch and glue
boat, have at it. It's your boat; have it the way you want it. I'm not
quite sure how you build a lapstrake boat without benefit of molds (the way
you do a stitch and glue boat), but the Vikings used to do it (mostly) and
you should be able to do it too. Keep us informed.
John T
boat, have at it. It's your boat; have it the way you want it. I'm not
quite sure how you build a lapstrake boat without benefit of molds (the way
you do a stitch and glue boat), but the Vikings used to do it (mostly) and
you should be able to do it too. Keep us informed.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2005 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Lapstrake stuff
> > ... you should build the boat that is quickest, cheapest, and most fun
for a
> > specific purpose,and be scrupulously modest about the value of pride in
> > materials and workmanship.
> > -Peter Belenky
>
> Fine!
>
> This circles back to Harry James's question to start this thread,
> in my recent experiment [at least] :
>
> using Hulls.exe to develop the 'strake' panel shapes/frames, and
> using the 'el cheapo' 1/8" luaun ply and framing lumber, and
> using quick and dirty wood butchering, and
> using paper cone 'pastry' tools to deposit epoxy beads
>
> ...you get a "quickest, cheapest, most fun" boat!
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
>
>
In his preface to "Bolger Boats", PCB said that Kotick is sharper in
the stern than would have been best. My interpretation of this is
that
he thinks there isn't quite enough buoyancy aft.
Howard
the stern than would have been best. My interpretation of this is
that
he thinks there isn't quite enough buoyancy aft.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> How is Kotick? Is she built strictly according to plan? Have you
compared her with other sea kayaks? Tell us lots more!!
> Conclusions that follow are:Bolger has made points two and three in his writing. The first is more
>
> 1) High-cost, high-quality materials should almost never be used in a
> plywood box.
>
> 2) It's almost never worthwhile to install much interior cabinetry or
> built-in plumbing and engineering.
>
> 3) It's almost never worthwhile to hire a professional at
> professional wages to build one.
complex, I think. There is the risk that poor materials will fall
apart quickly, wasting the labor time involved. Any plywood boat of
substantial size, e.g. Black Skimmer, Jochems, Skillygallee, should be
built of the best plywood that the can be obtained and afforded. IMHO.
Peter
> How is Kotick? Is she built strictly according to plan?Of my six boats, Kotick is by far the most popular
>Have you compared her with other sea kayaks? Tell us lots more!!
>
> Bill
boat for use by my family. I need another one
or two of them.
In hindsight, I built it too heavy, as it could have
easily been 1/3 lighter in weight.
In a short 'sprint' race between me in 'Cartoon #5'
[which is a fast rowboat] and a child paddling Kotick,
Kotick wins.
I made a 'stupid' error building my Kotick by reversing
frame 2 and 5, which gives the boat an slightly 'off'
shearline, though not fatal to her performance.
Kotick is optimized for Phil Bolger's body size,
and I want another paddle boat for a bigger person,
and am presently plugging away on scale up ideas
in Hulls.
I have only dumped Kotick once when I got
pooped and broached in a wave returning to the
beach through the surf. Full of water she weighs
a ton, and my limber holes don't all work making
for a pain to bail her out.
I think that the 'stripped' top deck of Kotick could
be replaced with 1/8" plywood for some weight
savings. I am tempted to make a lapstrake paddle
boat of 1/8" luaun, which should be extremely light
weight.
For my uses I am not sure I need the 'knee cover'
portion of the combing, with potential weight,
cost and time savings.
A complaint about my version of Kotick is that the
'backrest' of the cockpit is uncomfortable, cutting
into ones lower back. Glueing a contoured block
of styrofoam there should fix that.
My skill strip building is lacking and my Kotick has a
nagging small leak which makes for a wet butt,
but I now sit on a piece of a salvaged styrofoam
cooler lid, which improves comfort.
I have paddled in 'commecial' cruising kayaks
twice, and I cannot remember much significant
difference. They were nice, Kotick is nice.
Perhaps the cruising kayaks tracked a straight
line just a bit too rigidly for my taste. Kotick
tracks plenty straight, but also can be turned.
Kotick is the prettier boat though in my eyes.
>>when my youngest kid rammed me withthe pointy bow of my Kotick,>>
How is Kotick? Is she built strictly according to plan? Have you compared her with other sea kayaks? Tell us lots more!!
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Just a follow up, full disclosure and all:
I used 'Cartoon #5' again at length yesterday,
still rows like a dream, carried 700 lbs at one
point, and the ultra-light scantlings remains
a worthwhile choice due the the ability to
haul the boat for long distances single
handed....
...still I got one puncture of a the top strake
when my youngest kid rammed me with
the pointy bow of my Kotick, [well above
the waterline.] Also I got several cracks
in the frames due to jarring and jostling
loading and carrying the boat on the
trailer on bumpy roads. The boat still
functioned fine with the cracked frames
and this all will be an easy fix with epoxy
and scabbed on patches. Two of the
thin battens forming the seating surfaces
got cracked when people stepped on them,
again an easy fix. The paint could already
use a renewal due to scratching while
dragging the boat around up the beach and
across the parking lot, and there is a
2 inch spot with major gouging due to
pressure point abrasion on the trailer.
None of the 'glass ballon epoxy' lap
joints show any hint of failure, though
I do have a nagging 'pin hole' leak somewhere
probably due to a hole left from a pulled
staple.
I hindsight I *still* wouldn't add epoxy sheathing
or heavier wood due to the weight issue as
ease carrying the boat makes a huge
difference in the 'fun factor'.
I used 'Cartoon #5' again at length yesterday,
still rows like a dream, carried 700 lbs at one
point, and the ultra-light scantlings remains
a worthwhile choice due the the ability to
haul the boat for long distances single
handed....
...still I got one puncture of a the top strake
when my youngest kid rammed me with
the pointy bow of my Kotick, [well above
the waterline.] Also I got several cracks
in the frames due to jarring and jostling
loading and carrying the boat on the
trailer on bumpy roads. The boat still
functioned fine with the cracked frames
and this all will be an easy fix with epoxy
and scabbed on patches. Two of the
thin battens forming the seating surfaces
got cracked when people stepped on them,
again an easy fix. The paint could already
use a renewal due to scratching while
dragging the boat around up the beach and
across the parking lot, and there is a
2 inch spot with major gouging due to
pressure point abrasion on the trailer.
None of the 'glass ballon epoxy' lap
joints show any hint of failure, though
I do have a nagging 'pin hole' leak somewhere
probably due to a hole left from a pulled
staple.
I hindsight I *still* wouldn't add epoxy sheathing
or heavier wood due to the weight issue as
ease carrying the boat makes a huge
difference in the 'fun factor'.
> ... you should build the boat that is quickest, cheapest, and most fun for aFine!
> specific purpose,and be scrupulously modest about the value of pride in
> materials and workmanship.
> -Peter Belenky
This circles back to Harry James's question to start this thread,
in my recent experiment [at least] :
using Hulls.exe to develop the 'strake' panel shapes/frames, and
using the 'el cheapo' 1/8" luaun ply and framing lumber, and
using quick and dirty wood butchering, and
using paper cone 'pastry' tools to deposit epoxy beads
...you get a "quickest, cheapest, most fun" boat!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "donm172001" <Don_Maurer@m...> wrote:
boats?
1) They are the quickest way to get a useful boat out of cheap
materials that won't last long enough to be worth extra labor or
fancy glue and fastenings.
2) They can be attractive to amateurs who want to sail boats they
built with their own hands but don't feel confident in their ability
to master complex skills.
3) In RARE cases, they may have performance properties that can not
be realized better in round-bilge designs.
Conclusions that follow are:
1) High-cost, high-quality materials should almost never be used in a
plywood box.
2) It's almost never worthwhile to install much interior cabinetry or
built-in plumbing and engineering.
3) It's almost never worthwhile to hire a professional at
professional wages to build one.
Honestly, it grieves me to say this. With the rest of you, I think
Superbrick is perfectly adorable, and I have dreamed about it as I
used to dream about Billy Atkin's cutter Benbow in my childhood.
Within its parameters, it is a marvelously ingenious concept, but it
is a design that remains on paper for a reason. I am a charter
subscriber to WoodenBoat magazine (and I suppose my back issues will
hold their value as well as a lot of the subjects) but I can't see
that the mere label "wooden" justifies building every design that
looks good, sails well, and enjoys some of the romance of the sea.
You have to ask whether, by building in wood, you are enabled to
display the hallowed ship-carpentry traditions or the superior
craftsmanship and beautiful materials that appeal to a potential
purchaser's pride of ownership. If so, you can justify spending the
money or devoting the time and skills. If not, you should build the
boat that is quickest, cheapest, and most fun for a specific purpose,
and be scrupulously modest about the value of pride in materials and
workmanship.
-Peter Belenky
>of
> IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on the the construction time
> differences of various planking methods. Planking is the quickest
> part of any boatbuilding project, except for maybe the simplest,
> most basic designs. Planking probably will not take more than 25%
> the entire build time, and much less if the boat contains a lot ofAnd given that, what should we (and PCB) say about Bolger square
> detail or interior joinery.
>
boats?
1) They are the quickest way to get a useful boat out of cheap
materials that won't last long enough to be worth extra labor or
fancy glue and fastenings.
2) They can be attractive to amateurs who want to sail boats they
built with their own hands but don't feel confident in their ability
to master complex skills.
3) In RARE cases, they may have performance properties that can not
be realized better in round-bilge designs.
Conclusions that follow are:
1) High-cost, high-quality materials should almost never be used in a
plywood box.
2) It's almost never worthwhile to install much interior cabinetry or
built-in plumbing and engineering.
3) It's almost never worthwhile to hire a professional at
professional wages to build one.
Honestly, it grieves me to say this. With the rest of you, I think
Superbrick is perfectly adorable, and I have dreamed about it as I
used to dream about Billy Atkin's cutter Benbow in my childhood.
Within its parameters, it is a marvelously ingenious concept, but it
is a design that remains on paper for a reason. I am a charter
subscriber to WoodenBoat magazine (and I suppose my back issues will
hold their value as well as a lot of the subjects) but I can't see
that the mere label "wooden" justifies building every design that
looks good, sails well, and enjoys some of the romance of the sea.
You have to ask whether, by building in wood, you are enabled to
display the hallowed ship-carpentry traditions or the superior
craftsmanship and beautiful materials that appeal to a potential
purchaser's pride of ownership. If so, you can justify spending the
money or devoting the time and skills. If not, you should build the
boat that is quickest, cheapest, and most fun for a specific purpose,
and be scrupulously modest about the value of pride in materials and
workmanship.
-Peter Belenky
IMHO, too much emphasis is placed on the the construction time
differences of various planking methods. Planking is the quickest
part of any boatbuilding project, except for maybe the simplest,
most basic designs. Planking probably will not take more than 25% of
the entire build time, and much less if the boat contains a lot of
detail or interior joinery.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
differences of various planking methods. Planking is the quickest
part of any boatbuilding project, except for maybe the simplest,
most basic designs. Planking probably will not take more than 25% of
the entire build time, and much less if the boat contains a lot of
detail or interior joinery.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:
> As a general rule, the time required to assemble a hull (whichdoes not
> include the time necessary to finish it, build all the other bits,and fit
> out) varies directly with the number of pieces which go into theboat.
> Lapstrake boats have more pieces than flat panel boats. Inaddition to the
> time spent "lining off" the strakes, each strake must be spiled,cut, fit,
> and bevels must be cut on the adjoining strake. It is notimpossible, and
> it is a lot of fun, but it does take time. Compare PCB's verypretty
> Poohsticks or Teal to his Defender.plywood panel
>
> My point is that lapstrake is a good construction for round boats,
> particularly those that live on a trailer. You can convert a
> boat to lapstrake and, properly lined off, lapstrake planking canbe very
> handsome. But the additional pieces (strakes) will take longer tofabricate
> and assemble than the original panels.to build
> If you value good looks more than your time, or if you just like
> boats, have at it and enjoy.longer to
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 10:06 AM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Lapstrake stuff
>
>
> > > but you will find that the lapstrake version takes a lot
> > > build than the sheet panel versionhorses
> >
> > I dispute this!
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-13496/17/2005
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date:
> >
> >
> As a general rule, the time required to assemble a hullIn my experience, also very important, is the necessary
> ... varies directly with the number of pieces which go into the boat.
accuracy required to cut the pieces. And, lapstrake
pieces require less time spent on 'good fit' than
panel boats.
I have built several panel boats, and two plywood lapstrake
boats [one as recently as this month] and I may be breaking
the rules, but the lapstrake boats did not take much (if any)
longer than the panel boats.
As a general rule, the time required to assemble a hull (which does not
include the time necessary to finish it, build all the other bits, and fit
out) varies directly with the number of pieces which go into the boat.
Lapstrake boats have more pieces than flat panel boats. In addition to the
time spent "lining off" the strakes, each strake must be spiled, cut, fit,
and bevels must be cut on the adjoining strake. It is not impossible, and
it is a lot of fun, but it does take time. Compare PCB's very pretty
Poohsticks or Teal to his Defender.
My point is that lapstrake is a good construction for round boats,
particularly those that live on a trailer. You can convert a plywood panel
boat to lapstrake and, properly lined off, lapstrake planking can be very
handsome. But the additional pieces (strakes) will take longer to fabricate
and assemble than the original panels.
If you value good looks more than your time, or if you just like to build
boats, have at it and enjoy.
John T
include the time necessary to finish it, build all the other bits, and fit
out) varies directly with the number of pieces which go into the boat.
Lapstrake boats have more pieces than flat panel boats. In addition to the
time spent "lining off" the strakes, each strake must be spiled, cut, fit,
and bevels must be cut on the adjoining strake. It is not impossible, and
it is a lot of fun, but it does take time. Compare PCB's very pretty
Poohsticks or Teal to his Defender.
My point is that lapstrake is a good construction for round boats,
particularly those that live on a trailer. You can convert a plywood panel
boat to lapstrake and, properly lined off, lapstrake planking can be very
handsome. But the additional pieces (strakes) will take longer to fabricate
and assemble than the original panels.
If you value good looks more than your time, or if you just like to build
boats, have at it and enjoy.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Lapstrake stuff
> > but you will find that the lapstrake version takes a lot longer to
> > build than the sheet panel version
>
> I dispute this!
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.8/22 - Release Date: 6/17/2005
>
>
> but you will find that the lapstrake version takes a lot longer toI dispute this!
> build than the sheet panel version
Harry--
Lapstrake construction was developed as a way to either build a round hull
or a way to use narrow stock to cover fairly wide areas. Boats designed
around plywood exploit the fact that plywood comes in large panels. The use
of flat bottomed, v-bottomed, or multi-chined plywood hulls is intended to
exploit the available size of plywood panels, minimize labor, and minimize
fastenings and seams in planking. The "downside" of sheet plywood boats is
that plywood only bends in one direction and this imposes some limits to
availble hull shapes.
Plywood lapstrake is an excellent way to build a boat which has roundish
cross sections or hollows. Ian Oughtred, Paul Gartside, and PCB (see
Defender and Victoria in Small Boats and Spartina and Spur II in BWAOM) have
designs for glued plywood lapstrake.
You can convert existing plywood panel boats to lapstrake if you want and
the visual results can be attractive (see Steve Redmond's Whisp as an
example), but you will find that the lapstrake version takes a lot longer to
build than the sheet panel version and the hull shape retains the design
limitations imposed by plywood panel construction.
It is usually possible to convert a traditional lapstrake boat to plywood
construction (Walter Simmons of Ducktrap woodworking has done this with a
number of wherries). If you are feeling the compulsion to create, you might
also consider converting carvel designs to lapstrake.
John T
Lapstrake construction was developed as a way to either build a round hull
or a way to use narrow stock to cover fairly wide areas. Boats designed
around plywood exploit the fact that plywood comes in large panels. The use
of flat bottomed, v-bottomed, or multi-chined plywood hulls is intended to
exploit the available size of plywood panels, minimize labor, and minimize
fastenings and seams in planking. The "downside" of sheet plywood boats is
that plywood only bends in one direction and this imposes some limits to
availble hull shapes.
Plywood lapstrake is an excellent way to build a boat which has roundish
cross sections or hollows. Ian Oughtred, Paul Gartside, and PCB (see
Defender and Victoria in Small Boats and Spartina and Spur II in BWAOM) have
designs for glued plywood lapstrake.
You can convert existing plywood panel boats to lapstrake if you want and
the visual results can be attractive (see Steve Redmond's Whisp as an
example), but you will find that the lapstrake version takes a lot longer to
build than the sheet panel version and the hull shape retains the design
limitations imposed by plywood panel construction.
It is usually possible to convert a traditional lapstrake boat to plywood
construction (Walter Simmons of Ducktrap woodworking has done this with a
number of wherries). If you are feeling the compulsion to create, you might
also consider converting carvel designs to lapstrake.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 1:57 AM
Subject: [bolger] Lapstrake stuff
> Bruce
>
> I don't want to soak up time on a weekend when you have so many boats to
> better spend your time with so answer this at your leisure. Two questions
>
> First; The process by which you got the lines into Hulls and then got
> the panels and 6 notched bulkheads back out is a little obscure to me.
> OK I can say it --it is very obscure to me.
>
> I think I can take a set of offsets and work that into Hulls and get a
> result but the rest I am lost at.
>
> Second; How hard would it be to take other designs and do the same? I am
> thinking that a Gypsy with a few more panels would make a really great
> looking lapstrake boat. Cartopper even more so, but you could shave
> 20-30 lbs on a Gypsy add 10 square feet of sail and have a serious
screamer.
>
> I really like the two you have done so far and thank you for sharing the
> process and results.
>
> HJ
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
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>
>
>
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>
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>
> First; The process by which you got the lines into Hulls and then gotYeah, the learning curve for Hulls is real steep, but once learned it does
> the panels and 6 notched bulkheads back out is a little obscure to me.
work very good. A boat can be designed in about two hours with
practice.
> I think I can take a set of offsets and work that into Hulls and get aI feel it is easier to not enter the whole table of offsets, but rather use
> result but the rest I am lost at.
the offset table in Hulls only a small amount, for 'fine align' of the
stem, etc..
> Second; How hard would it be to take other designs and do the same? I amYou and I think alike, I have been eyeing both those hulls as lapstrake shapes.
> thinking that a Gypsy with a few more panels would make a really great
> looking lapstrake boat. Cartopper even more so, but you could shave
> 20-30 lbs on a Gypsy add 10 square feet of sail and have a serious screamer.
My advice is to make five or ten paper models using Hulls to quickly
get over the learning curve.
I recall reading 'unofficial' online instructuctions for Hulls, I
forget where though.
Here is a rough outline of how I do it...
1) I choose an exising boat with roughly the same shape, and exactly the
same number of chines and open it with:
File|Open|[select]|Done
2) I drag the lines, chines, sheers, etc.. to the shape of the hull I want
by using the mouse. Working back and forth between the various views
to get a boat with the smooth lines and shape you want.
3) I then set the overall scale of the boat using
Calculations|Rescale|Length Overall Go back to step 2 and tweak.
...If you plan to plot the panels on a laser printer, using a smaller
scale that
fits better on thin cardboard which has a different aspect ratio that 4x8 ply
can same some trouble... This process takes trial and error and experience
helps...
4) You make the patterns for the panels and the frames using the
menu command File|SaveCreate
This opens a "Save and Create Patterns" dialogue box to set the locations
of frames you want and to choose whether you want to plot the
strongback "2x4Spar" and/or the deck and sole etc..
5) Now click the menu item Patterns|Nesting
Again, some learning curve here! For plotting on paper choosing a panel
size of about 110 x 96 [I forget exactly!] plots better on laser printer than
using the default 48x96.
Click each of your panels in the selection box and drag to a good location
on the plywood. You can copy and flip to get 'opposite hand' panels.
Once done you can plot to a laser printer using the 'Print' button.
You can also plot the 'layout points' using the 'Save' button, this is
how you layout full size panels on plywood, including the 'notches'
in the bulkheads if you actually treat the thin edge surface of each
strake as its own very long and thin chine.
Bruce
I don't want to soak up time on a weekend when you have so many boats to
better spend your time with so answer this at your leisure. Two questions
First; The process by which you got the lines into Hulls and then got
the panels and 6 notched bulkheads back out is a little obscure to me.
OK I can say it --it is very obscure to me.
I think I can take a set of offsets and work that into Hulls and get a
result but the rest I am lost at.
Second; How hard would it be to take other designs and do the same? I am
thinking that a Gypsy with a few more panels would make a really great
looking lapstrake boat. Cartopper even more so, but you could shave
20-30 lbs on a Gypsy add 10 square feet of sail and have a serious screamer.
I really like the two you have done so far and thank you for sharing the
process and results.
HJ
I don't want to soak up time on a weekend when you have so many boats to
better spend your time with so answer this at your leisure. Two questions
First; The process by which you got the lines into Hulls and then got
the panels and 6 notched bulkheads back out is a little obscure to me.
OK I can say it --it is very obscure to me.
I think I can take a set of offsets and work that into Hulls and get a
result but the rest I am lost at.
Second; How hard would it be to take other designs and do the same? I am
thinking that a Gypsy with a few more panels would make a really great
looking lapstrake boat. Cartopper even more so, but you could shave
20-30 lbs on a Gypsy add 10 square feet of sail and have a serious screamer.
I really like the two you have done so far and thank you for sharing the
process and results.
HJ
> the asylum :-D "Quickend" may be an appropriate name too for yourhttp://community.webshots.com/photo/373314405/373314405lCZfob
> latest boatbuilding burst,no?
Shows a photo of first launch.
She rows so slippery that you can't really call it exercise
[until you approach hull speed]. Tracks very straight,
but not so tight to make maneuvering hard.
Much sweeter rowing as a single instead of with two people,
as the space between the forward rowing station and the
middle seat is perhaps 6" too short for comfortable leg
extension. Rowing from the center seat feels great,
with me and my long legs.
The hull is light weight and lifts on and off the car
easily.
Stability is fine, oar length is perhaps an inch too long.
Two hours fishing with my daughter on Father's day morning,
no fish, but we found and retrieved a beach ball from the tulle's;
which we will take to Lake Bereyesa this evening for three
days camping, [waterfront camp spot] at Spanish Flat Resort,
with me and four girls and five Bolger boats. Teal, Cartoon 5,
Tortoise, Yellowleaf and Kotick, our own messabout.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/373315559/373315559txLvKS
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
be asked to dance through,I'd suggest you start leasing out your
fleet to fund ever bigger boat projects. How about an open
air"Bolger Maritime Museum" 5 bucks at the door gets you in for the
day and all the water you can drink :-)
not a reprimand.It is my way of dealing with nights of craziness at
the asylum :-D "Quickend" may be an appropriate name too for your
latest boatbuilding burst,no?
Sincerely,
Peter,three sheets to the wind,Lenihan
> My driveway is empty of boats compared to my back yard.LOL!!! Bruce,were it not for the expected spools of red tape you'd
be asked to dance through,I'd suggest you start leasing out your
fleet to fund ever bigger boat projects. How about an open
air"Bolger Maritime Museum" 5 bucks at the door gets you in for the
day and all the water you can drink :-)
> Oops.Never fear Bruce,it's just me nit-picking in a good natured way and
>
> I looked at:
>http://www.troop54.com/knots/TurksHeadKnot/TurksHeadKnot.htm
> for instructions
> but failed to notice I should 'page down'
> and I stopped at figure 7 without threading
> the line another time around.
>
> Regardless, it works, consistent with the whole boat;
> a series of shortcuts to a quick end.
not a reprimand.It is my way of dealing with nights of craziness at
the asylum :-D "Quickend" may be an appropriate name too for your
latest boatbuilding burst,no?
Sincerely,
Peter,three sheets to the wind,Lenihan
On 6/16/05, Wesley Cox <inspiredfe@...> wrote:
crossing handles on the backstroke. I have smashed
my fingers a few too many times to tolerate crossing
handles [with a fixed seat boat].
> Why such short oars?Those oars are the maximum possible length without
crossing handles on the backstroke. I have smashed
my fingers a few too many times to tolerate crossing
handles [with a fixed seat boat].
> Looks like you may have to move soon since yourMy driveway is empty of boats compared to my back yard.
> driveway will soon over flow leaving no room for cars..
> By the way, I think you're cheatin' with your Turks Head...it usuallyOops.
> takes 3 lines(minimum) to do it right,no? ;-)
> Peter Lenihan
I looked at:
http://www.troop54.com/knots/TurksHeadKnot/TurksHeadKnot.htm
for instructions
but failed to notice I should 'page down'
and I stopped at figure 7 without threading
the line another time around.
Regardless, it works, consistent with the whole boat;
a series of shortcuts to a quick end.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
driveway will soon over flow leaving no room for cars.....expecting a
flood anytime soon? :-)
By the way, I think you're cheatin' with your Turks Head...it usually
takes 3 lines(minimum) to do it right,no? ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,looking forward to the day you build a Champlain to take
your loved ones cruisin'around the bay..........
> Here are four more pictures,Great stuff Bruce! Looks like you may have to move soon since your
driveway will soon over flow leaving no room for cars.....expecting a
flood anytime soon? :-)
By the way, I think you're cheatin' with your Turks Head...it usually
takes 3 lines(minimum) to do it right,no? ;-)
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,looking forward to the day you build a Champlain to take
your loved ones cruisin'around the bay..........
Beautiful boat. Why such short oars?
Bruce Hallman wrote:
Bruce Hallman wrote:
> Here are four more pictures, taken after I 'tweaked' the
> geometry of the oars. 76" oars, 48" socket to socket
> the handles just touch on the return stroke [I might
> trim another half inch off each oar.]
>
>http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/370920313TzaJeD
>http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920354/370920354TkECIP
>
> Showing a side 'elevation' view of the boat, not shown to you before:
>
>http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920406/370920406IdsqvD
>
> Close up of 'Turks head' oar lock keeper and glass oar lock sleeve:
>
>http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920455/370920455bqytwy
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
Here are four more pictures, taken after I 'tweaked' the
geometry of the oars. 76" oars, 48" socket to socket
the handles just touch on the return stroke [I might
trim another half inch off each oar.]
http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/370920313TzaJeD
http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920354/370920354TkECIP
Showing a side 'elevation' view of the boat, not shown to you before:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920406/370920406IdsqvD
Close up of 'Turks head' oar lock keeper and glass oar lock sleeve:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920455/370920455bqytwy
geometry of the oars. 76" oars, 48" socket to socket
the handles just touch on the return stroke [I might
trim another half inch off each oar.]
http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/370920313TzaJeD
http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920354/370920354TkECIP
Showing a side 'elevation' view of the boat, not shown to you before:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920406/370920406IdsqvD
Close up of 'Turks head' oar lock keeper and glass oar lock sleeve:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/370920455/370920455bqytwy
A great result, Bruce. I love the color-scheme.
It took me a moment or two to realize I was looking at a landscape
picture presented in portrait format.
Howard
It took me a moment or two to realize I was looking at a landscape
picture presented in portrait format.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> Final tally:
>
>http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/367822788AgSwer
>
> $60 of wood.
> $40 of paint.
> $20 of sandpaper.
> 1 gallon epoxy.
> 44 manhours.
> About 65 lbs weight.
> Started May 29 finished June 12.
>
> I want to give it a week for the oil paint to get
> hard, and plan on taking it camping with the
> kids after Father's day!
Final tally:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/367822788AgSwer
$60 of wood.
$40 of paint.
$20 of sandpaper.
1 gallon epoxy.
44 manhours.
About 65 lbs weight.
Started May 29 finished June 12.
I want to give it a week for the oil paint to get
hard, and plan on taking it camping with the
kids after Father's day!
http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/367822788AgSwer
$60 of wood.
$40 of paint.
$20 of sandpaper.
1 gallon epoxy.
44 manhours.
About 65 lbs weight.
Started May 29 finished June 12.
I want to give it a week for the oil paint to get
hard, and plan on taking it camping with the
kids after Father's day!
> Have you weighed it yet, or are you waiting until it's all fitted out and ready to go?I don't own a scale, but it is lighter than my Teal, and should cartop easily.
> Bill
It also took no longer to build than a Teal.
Looks fabulous, Bruce! Have you weighed it yet, or are you waiting until it's all fitted out and ready to go?
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> with pictures, of course.http://community.webshots.com/photo/367086250/367086250WSixDH
Shows a picture at hour 34. I am quite happy with the light weight.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Thanks for sharing the SBJ#29 Cartoon #5. Looks like it'll be a
pretty boat. It also looks like it a light weight boat built to those
offsets could be made using Monfort's geodesic aerolite approach,
using steam bent ash for ribs, spruce for stringers and gunwales and
a relatively light polyester or nylon skin.
Let us know how yours turns out, with pictures, of course.
Chris Stewart
> On a whim, I have started building a double ended lapstrake rowboatstable,
> along the lines of Bolger's SBJ#29 Cartoon #5.
>
>http://hallman.org/sbj/29/
>
> My seventh Bolger boat, I have the goal of a very light weight,
> dry, sweet rowing, easy towing, rowboat.Bruce,
>
Thanks for sharing the SBJ#29 Cartoon #5. Looks like it'll be a
pretty boat. It also looks like it a light weight boat built to those
offsets could be made using Monfort's geodesic aerolite approach,
using steam bent ash for ribs, spruce for stringers and gunwales and
a relatively light polyester or nylon skin.
Let us know how yours turns out, with pictures, of course.
Chris Stewart
Bill
I was thinking that wider staples would work better because more
material pulling up the same staple length in the wood. I have read of
two ways of doing this, one with nylon strapping tape which is pretty
hard to break and the other with thin wood strips. I just bought a 1/4
in narrow crown 18 Ga stapler for some cabinet work, I guess I need to
do some tests.
HJ
wmrpage@...wrote:
I was thinking that wider staples would work better because more
material pulling up the same staple length in the wood. I have read of
two ways of doing this, one with nylon strapping tape which is pretty
hard to break and the other with thin wood strips. I just bought a 1/4
in narrow crown 18 Ga stapler for some cabinet work, I guess I need to
do some tests.
HJ
wmrpage@...wrote:
>In a message dated 6/8/05 10:28:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
>bruce@...writes:
>
>
>
>>>Have you tried stapling through strapping tape and pulling the tape
>>>after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
>>>HJ
>>>
>>>
>
>I'm planning on trying out this technique later this summer. If anyone has
>any experience with this, I'd be grateful for any observations.
>
>Ciao for Niao,
>Bill in MN
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
In a message dated 6/8/05 10:28:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
bruce@...writes:
any experience with this, I'd be grateful for any observations.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bruce@...writes:
> >Have you tried stapling through strapping tape and pulling the tapeI'm planning on trying out this technique later this summer. If anyone has
> >after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
> >HJ
>
any experience with this, I'd be grateful for any observations.
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We'd better stop asking questions, Bruce, or you'll ending up spending
more time answering questions than building. But I for one enjoy
looking at the pictures.
Howard
more time answering questions than building. But I for one enjoy
looking at the pictures.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@h...> wrote:
>
> I have 16 hours into it so far and have all
> the strakes on except the last two, (the chine strakes),
> [which go on this evening!]
> I tried this with a nylon cake decorator bag, but of course itThe folded paper tubes work great, I have gone through
> was a pain to clean.
about twenty of them so far, disposable.
Here are photos of my project at hour 20.
Don't look to close at the wows and wobbles,
that is the price you pay (I think) for going with
such thin plywood, 1/8" luaun. The shell becomes
astonishingly rigid after being glued up on a curve.
http://community.webshots.com/photo/360982713/363456033wlFHwN
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363456137/363456137uSXoJn
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363456246/363456246mgfely
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363456342/363456342SlGiCE
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363456502/363456502RRlyTx
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363456686/363456686RGrsPl
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363456879/363456879ntaCvs
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363457066/363457066rEahPP
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363457225/363457225uvKqjF
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363457401/363457401XqYaBv
http://community.webshots.com/photo/363457595/363457595CjqVTP
Bruce Hallman wrote:
was a pain to clean. I had reasonably good results using a
ziplock bag with the corner cut off.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> Last night, putting on the first garboard strake, I tried out theI tried this with a nylon cake decorator bag, but of course it
> use of a 'pastry chef' paper cone to apply an epoxy bead
> to the lap.
was a pain to clean. I had reasonably good results using a
ziplock bag with the corner cut off.
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
> strapping tape. The stapleMy intention is to pull the staples I can grab with
a pliers, and grind off any others which bother
me using an angle grinder [patching the scars with
dabs of epoxy]...and I will leave most of them
in place and paint them over.
My attitude with this boat is that it is not
a monument. I view it as short lived, and
disposible. My total budget is $100 for
materials and have a goal of less than 32 hours labor.
I have 16 hours into it so far and have all
the strakes on except the last two, (the chine strakes),
[which go on this evening!]
Remaining work: twhart seats, bottom runner,
'some' bottom fairing, inwales and paint.
Was this the strapping tape with the nylon in it or just straight
plastic banding material?
HJ
Roger Derby wrote:
plastic banding material?
HJ
Roger Derby wrote:
>I tried it with the plastic version (vs. the steel) strapping tape. The
>staple pulled thru the tape but not out of the epoxy/wood. Test on a sample
>first!
>
>If one sets the air pressure to the gun so that the head of the staple is
>not buried in the tape or other padding, then it can be grabbed with vise
>grips and extracted after the tape is pulled off.
>
>Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
>To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>
>
>
>
>>Have you tried stapling through strapping tape and pulling the tape
>>after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>
I tried it with the plastic version (vs. the steel) strapping tape. The
staple pulled thru the tape but not out of the epoxy/wood. Test on a sample
first!
If one sets the air pressure to the gun so that the head of the staple is
not buried in the tape or other padding, then it can be grabbed with vise
grips and extracted after the tape is pulled off.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
staple pulled thru the tape but not out of the epoxy/wood. Test on a sample
first!
If one sets the air pressure to the gun so that the head of the staple is
not buried in the tape or other padding, then it can be grabbed with vise
grips and extracted after the tape is pulled off.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry James" <welshman@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Have you tried stapling through strapping tape and pulling the tape
> after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
> Have you tried stapling through strapping tape and pulling the tapeI have not tried it either, but it seems like more work than I
> after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
> HJ
would be up for. With this boat at least, I am trying for
quick and easy, and I have tolerance for defects.
The staples I am presently using are very narrow crown, 3/32" wide
and 5/8" long, and I am using them only for temporary tacks, and
use enough epoxy to hold without the staples.
The staples, for instance were a very quick way to assemble
the frames on the strongback, taking perhaps 45 minutes total.
Have you tried stapling through strapping tape and pulling the tape
after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
HJ
after the epoxy sets? I have heard of it being done, never tried it.
HJ
>They are just 'normal staples' which seem to have a thin anti-corrosion
>covering. I will pull a few that are easy to pull, but the rest I
>will leave in place.
>Mostly the staples are handy because they can be installed in lieu of
>clamps while fitting up pieces that are held in place with glue. The 19guage
>narrow crown staples are roughly equivalent to a finish nail, a tack so to
>speak.
>
>
>
> I see you are using a 19 ga, do you think 18 ga would be too bigWell, glass bubbles do lessen the strength of epoxy, but as I see it, it makes
> >I was under the impression that the glass bubbles were great for fairing,
> >but not so good for strength????
epoxy which is roughly tens time stronger than luaun plywood, and degrades
the strength by half, and making it only five times stronger than luaun plywood.
The weak link in the chain principle, I am more concerned about the strength
of the luaun plywood than the glue.
> >Do you pull the staples after the epoxy sets up? Are they SS?They are just 'normal staples' which seem to have a thin anti-corrosion
covering. I will pull a few that are easy to pull, but the rest I
will leave in place.
Mostly the staples are handy because they can be installed in lieu of
clamps while fitting up pieces that are held in place with glue. The 19guage
narrow crown staples are roughly equivalent to a finish nail, a tack so to
speak.
I see you are using a 19 ga, do you think 18 ga would be too big
HJ
Roger Derby wrote:
HJ
Roger Derby wrote:
>I was under the impression that the glass bubbles were great for fairing,
>but not so good for strength????
>
>I'll have to try the "pastry cone" when I start hanging the strakes. It
>sounds neat.
>
>Do you pull the staples after the epoxy sets up? Are they SS?
>
>Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>
I was under the impression that the glass bubbles were great for fairing,
but not so good for strength????
I'll have to try the "pastry cone" when I start hanging the strakes. It
sounds neat.
Do you pull the staples after the epoxy sets up? Are they SS?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
but not so good for strength????
I'll have to try the "pastry cone" when I start hanging the strakes. It
sounds neat.
Do you pull the staples after the epoxy sets up? Are they SS?
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
> My favorite mix is about 2 parts glass bubbles to 1 part of epoxy
> plus a small shot of silica, toothpaste-like.
>
>http://www.akiskitchen.ca/techniques/make_paper_cone/paper_cone_1.html
>
> Plus, this is my first boat since acquiring a Duo-Fast narrow
> crown air stapler, an *incredibly* useful tool for working with
> thin plywood. (1/8" luaun strakes in my case.)
>
>http://www.alliedpackaging.com/fastening/duo6432.html
On a whim, I have started building a double ended lapstrake rowboat
along the lines of Bolger's SBJ#29 Cartoon #5.
http://hallman.org/sbj/29/
My seventh Bolger boat, I have the goal of a very light weight, stable,
dry, sweet rowing, easy towing, rowboat.
I write 'along the lines' that due to my impetuous nature (and sloppy
lofting), I am making it 3" inches wider of beam and a couple
inches shallower in the bow [with bow and stern identical], plus
I am using luaun ply frames instead of the spruce trusses.
Last night, putting on the first garboard strake, I tried out the
use of a 'pastry chef' paper cone to apply an epoxy bead
to the lap. I worked great! [probably been used before in
boatbuilding] but it was new to me and was *really* efficient,
allowing me to squirt on an even and straight line of goo
with no waste or mess. My favorite mix is about 2 parts glass
bubbles to 1 part of epoxy plus a small shot of silica, toothpaste-like.
http://www.akiskitchen.ca/techniques/make_paper_cone/paper_cone_1.html
Plus, this is my first boat since acquiring a Duo-Fast narrow
crown air stapler, an *incredibly* useful tool for working with
thin plywood. (1/8" luaun strakes in my case.)
http://www.alliedpackaging.com/fastening/duo6432.html
along the lines of Bolger's SBJ#29 Cartoon #5.
http://hallman.org/sbj/29/
My seventh Bolger boat, I have the goal of a very light weight, stable,
dry, sweet rowing, easy towing, rowboat.
I write 'along the lines' that due to my impetuous nature (and sloppy
lofting), I am making it 3" inches wider of beam and a couple
inches shallower in the bow [with bow and stern identical], plus
I am using luaun ply frames instead of the spruce trusses.
Last night, putting on the first garboard strake, I tried out the
use of a 'pastry chef' paper cone to apply an epoxy bead
to the lap. I worked great! [probably been used before in
boatbuilding] but it was new to me and was *really* efficient,
allowing me to squirt on an even and straight line of goo
with no waste or mess. My favorite mix is about 2 parts glass
bubbles to 1 part of epoxy plus a small shot of silica, toothpaste-like.
http://www.akiskitchen.ca/techniques/make_paper_cone/paper_cone_1.html
Plus, this is my first boat since acquiring a Duo-Fast narrow
crown air stapler, an *incredibly* useful tool for working with
thin plywood. (1/8" luaun strakes in my case.)
http://www.alliedpackaging.com/fastening/duo6432.html
Bruce I have put some pictures in Bolger5 under Applecross.
Difficult to get far enough back from the sail when you are on
board. Yesterday I had the most exhilarating sail alongside a
friend from the church in his Hillyard gaff rigged boat. Normally I
have been unable to match her performance.
Without her topsail my new rig outperformed and out pointed her for
the first time. The wind was light and even against the strong tide
I was able to make good progress.
I will add some more phots of her sailing when I get someone else to
take them.
I have also include a pre-junk rig photo.
As I have already said the main change is a new mast set at the rear
of the well.
I have also included a photo of my sail overlaid on the building
plans. I hope this does not violate Phil's copyright as I have no
wish to offend him.
Martin
Difficult to get far enough back from the sail when you are on
board. Yesterday I had the most exhilarating sail alongside a
friend from the church in his Hillyard gaff rigged boat. Normally I
have been unable to match her performance.
Without her topsail my new rig outperformed and out pointed her for
the first time. The wind was light and even against the strong tide
I was able to make good progress.
I will add some more phots of her sailing when I get someone else to
take them.
I have also include a pre-junk rig photo.
As I have already said the main change is a new mast set at the rear
of the well.
I have also included a photo of my sail overlaid on the building
plans. I hope this does not violate Phil's copyright as I have no
wish to offend him.
Martin
Photos?
Bruce Hector
Bruce Hector
After a week out of the water to fix mast I was able to go sailing
with a friend. Wind quite gusty so we started with nearly three
reefs in.
With my friend controlling the sail and piloting I was able to relax
and watch the sail. Over the trip we were able to sail with the
complete sail up which is bigger than the normal Micro sail. I
designed it so that one reef in was the equivalent sail of the
original rig. With the complete sail up the mast has a good bend
and the battens - triple 8 foot bamboo garden canes at the towards
the leach and single at the luff generates a beautiful curve on the
Port tack.
She handles very differently. The balance is different, but I
expected that. The main thing is that we set the mizzen at about
30 degrees from central and once set the tacking was done without
any need to touch the sails. With the previous rig I found I sailed
with the mizzen tight in and I always had to relax until the wind
was on the opposite side of the main. This may be that I had not
tried seeting the mizzen out.
Reefing proved OK but with the flexible battens downhauls proved to
strong, meaning that the batten just bent.
I have over estimated the length of Sheet required as the running
sheet line does most of the flexing. When I get my camera working I
will put a set of photos together showing the various parts I have
used.
All in all the use of poly tap has proved great. The batten choice
is great - need a better knot to fix lines around the end of the
canes, clove hitches do not grip enough. Being able to reef at will
certainly means that I am happier to sail single handed and perhaps
out to sea.
Lastly, I took my family out on a windy day. We did not sail as the
winds might have shreaded the sail. The boat proved very wet which
made me think of putting some form of canopy over the cockpit. More
experiments ahead I suppose!
with a friend. Wind quite gusty so we started with nearly three
reefs in.
With my friend controlling the sail and piloting I was able to relax
and watch the sail. Over the trip we were able to sail with the
complete sail up which is bigger than the normal Micro sail. I
designed it so that one reef in was the equivalent sail of the
original rig. With the complete sail up the mast has a good bend
and the battens - triple 8 foot bamboo garden canes at the towards
the leach and single at the luff generates a beautiful curve on the
Port tack.
She handles very differently. The balance is different, but I
expected that. The main thing is that we set the mizzen at about
30 degrees from central and once set the tacking was done without
any need to touch the sails. With the previous rig I found I sailed
with the mizzen tight in and I always had to relax until the wind
was on the opposite side of the main. This may be that I had not
tried seeting the mizzen out.
Reefing proved OK but with the flexible battens downhauls proved to
strong, meaning that the batten just bent.
I have over estimated the length of Sheet required as the running
sheet line does most of the flexing. When I get my camera working I
will put a set of photos together showing the various parts I have
used.
All in all the use of poly tap has proved great. The batten choice
is great - need a better knot to fix lines around the end of the
canes, clove hitches do not grip enough. Being able to reef at will
certainly means that I am happier to sail single handed and perhaps
out to sea.
Lastly, I took my family out on a windy day. We did not sail as the
winds might have shreaded the sail. The boat proved very wet which
made me think of putting some form of canopy over the cockpit. More
experiments ahead I suppose!