Re: [bolger] Jester Challenge Topaz variant

I'm thinking of the inwale with an inside strake (I guess you would call
it) like the Lily and it could extend down a little to cover cables and
wiring. Clyde

Bruce Hallman wrote:

> >Also I'm glad to see that he
> > doesn't have bulkheads in the prime space so he's not worried about
> > strength of the sides. Thanks again, Clyde
>
> I suspect they are very much conscious of the strength of the
> sides, but in typical Bolger fashion they are clever in the way
> they deal with it. In this case I notice that the 'inwale' at the
> shearline is enlarged, perhaps 6 or 8 inches? That is acting
> as a 'beam' of sorts reinforcing the top edge of the sides.
> Also, not obvious, but I suspect strongly that the outward
> edge of the seat/berth top serves as structural reinforcement
> too.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

But would you trust the advice of the current owners??
Cheers
Andrew Airey
--- Wayne <wtorry@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:

> My information about Trekka/Colombia came from

"Laurent Giles and
His

> Yacht Designs" by Lee and Philpott, published 1991

by International

> Marine. There are two pages on this design, but no

lines plan or

> offsets.
>
> It seems quite likely that they would sell the

plans.

>
> Howard

This was waiting for me in my InBox this morning from
Laurent Giles
Naval Architects Ltd.:

"Many thanks for your email regarding our design
number 0231, Trekka.
Plans are still available for Trekka and the Columbia
Class for
construction. We do have study plans to give an
overview of the
design with basic scantling information should you
wish to review the
design before purchasing full plans.
Study plans are available at a cost of £6.00 plus
£1.50 postage.
Full construction plans, including the lofting and a
licence to build
one hull are available at a cost of £750.00 plus VAT
if applicable.
We are offering a 15% discount until the end of June
should you wish
to purchase plans to build the Trekka. The price also
includes are
services should you have any queries or problems
during the build,
although any redesign or drawing work would incur an
extra charge."

It is nice to know that the plans for Trekka/Columbia
Class are
indeed available. Cost of the original custom design
in the early
50's: £50.00 plus NO VAT. Grinning.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <wtorry@v...> wrote:
>
> >Cost of the original custom design in the early
> > 50's: £50.00 plus NO VAT. Grinning.
>
> That was when the average draftsman (no draftswomen in those days)
> would have been paid about £5 a week. So at £50 it would have been
> profitable business for the company.
>
> Howard

According to Guzzwell's book, Jack Giles said that a custom design
was worth 10% of the cost of the boat, "Would £50 be acceptable?"

What was the average window and door woodworker being paid at the
time? It only took John Guzzwell 5 years from landing in Victoria to
get the design from Giles, build, outfit and provision the boat and
sail from Victoria. Extrordinary. He was single at the time. That
migh explain a lot.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <wtorry@v...> wrote:

>Cost of the original custom design in the early
> 50's: £50.00 plus NO VAT. Grinning.

That was when the average draftsman (no draftswomen in those days)
would have been paid about £5 a week. So at £50 it would have been
profitable business for the company.

Howard

>Also I'm glad to see that he
> doesn't have bulkheads in the prime space so he's not worried about
> strength of the sides. Thanks again, Clyde

I suspect they are very much conscious of the strength of the
sides, but in typical Bolger fashion they are clever in the way
they deal with it. In this case I notice that the 'inwale' at the
shearline is enlarged, perhaps 6 or 8 inches? That is acting
as a 'beam' of sorts reinforcing the top edge of the sides.
Also, not obvious, but I suspect strongly that the outward
edge of the seat/berth top serves as structural reinforcement
too.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:

> My information about Trekka/Colombia came from "Laurent Giles and

His

> Yacht Designs" by Lee and Philpott, published 1991 by International
> Marine. There are two pages on this design, but no lines plan or
> offsets.
>
> It seems quite likely that they would sell the plans.
>
> Howard

Bruce, thanks so much. Not at all what I expected but with a little
less seating there would be room to fish. Also I'm glad to see that he
doesn't have bulkheads in the prime space so he's not worried about
strength of the sides. Thanks again, Clyde

Bruce Hallman wrote:

> > Topaz, #650-2.
>
> Here is a picture of Topaz Spyder.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/Topaz-Spyder.gif
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I just want to say:

Damn, That's One Really Good Looking Boat!

Phil Smith

--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

> > Topaz, #650-2.
>
> Here is a picture of Topaz Spyder.
>
>http://hallman.org/bolger/Topaz-Spyder.gif
>
>

> Topaz, #650-2.

Here is a picture of Topaz Spyder.

http://hallman.org/bolger/Topaz-Spyder.gif

> It seems like we missed a lot of suitable designes, so here's a few
> for consideration:

I just made a pass through my 'notes' about Bolger designs
and see many seaworthy sailboats capable of safely crossing
the Atlantic. Perhaps half of these are much too big to be single
handed, and a few are too spartan, but I think all could survive
by the 'corked bottle' theory.

Arava #509 29'6"x9'9'x2' leeboarder
Advanced Sharpie 29
Bird of Dawning
Blueberry
Breakdown Schooner
Bright Thread
Centenial II
Cartoon #1, Cruising Cutter Concept 25'6" x 11'6"
Double Eagle
Fast Cruising Schooner 50' x 13'6" x 3'
Fiji
Jessie Cooper
Keel Sharpie Family Live-On-Board Concept 55' x 9'6" x 3'
Le Dulci Mer
Loose Moose #576
Moccasin
Motorsailing Cargo Boat
Offshore Leeboarder
OSTAR Concept 59
OSTAR Racer 30
Plywood Cruising Cat
Resolution
Romp
Seabird86
Tonweya
Volunteer
Weston Martyr #487
Yonder 30' x 10'

And I am sure there are more.

> It seems like we missed a lot of suitable designes...

> --The 30-foot Romp in Different Boats.

Definitely!

> --The 28 foot Africa (originally known as another Romp) in 30-Odd
> Boats. It's a bit like a bigger Seabird 86.

I would have said it was like the H-28. Round bottom, slim, long keel.

> --The 25 or 26 foot sloop toward the back of Small Boats (Sorry,

Nahant? Too low-sided to be a blue water boat, I think. The cabin is
divided by the centerboard. This was the inspiriation for Palo de Agua
(sp?). The text apologizes for the construction shown and suggests
alternates.

Peter

Always liked Seabird 86, but always felt it too small. Never heard of Africa, and I don't have the book 30-Odd Boats.

Do you have any scans or a link to a scan of Africa??

Thanks,
Rick

gbship <gbship@...> wrote:

It seems like we missed a lot of suitable designes,

<snip>

--The 28 foot Africa (originally known as another Romp) in 30-Odd
Boats. It's a bit like a bigger Seabird 86.

Gary Blankenship

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It seems like we missed a lot of suitable designes, so here's a few
for consideration:

--The 30-foot Romp in Different Boats. One of my favorites and
amenable to a lug rig (in fact Bolger has done one of his Chinese
gaff version for this).

--The 28 foot Africa (originally known as another Romp) in 30-Odd
Boats. It's a bit like a bigger Seabird 86.

--The 25 or 26 foot sloop toward the back of Small Boats (Sorry,
can't find my copy at the moment). I'd have a different rig, probably
chinese lug, rather than the small-jib sloop rig shown, The shoal
draft centerboard design would give me pause, but it looks so darn
sturdy. This and Africa are designed as carvel planked, as I recall,
but I'd do 'em strip planked, like Romp. Low headroom/freeboard would
probably make this a wet sailer, but I've always like the lines.

== The 20 foot or so ocean going leeboard catboat from Boats With An
Open Mind. I'd leave out the inboard and have an outboard. This might
be the best combination of buildability (it's also strip planked),
relative low cost, accommodations, and seaworthiness. Don't think it
would be hard to replace the gaff cat sail with a lug. Nice thing
about this boat and Romp is you don't have to build any massive keel
structure which saves a lot of work and intimidation for the relative
novice.

Gary Blankenship

I think that the big plus in modern sailing is that we
know what's out there in terms of landfall and,given
things like a reliable radio,what sort of weather
conditions we are likely to encounter.Imagine what it
must have been like for St Brendan crossing the
atlantic(northern route) or Captain Bligh(3000 miles
in an open boat).As an aside what Tim Severin(Brendan)
and Thor Heyerdahl found on their voyages was that
modern materials were more efficient than the
traditional ones,but also much less reliable and
repairable.The big questions in this thread seems to
be 'how small can you go for an ocean crosser' and
'should it be permitted'.I don't think that anyone
would advocate using a tortoise for the purpose(joke)
but if anyone feels that he's got something to prove
to himself,or others,then why not.In an increasingly
grey world ruled by killjoys and control freaks we
need some magnificent idiocies to lighten the
atmosphere.I'm writing from a British perspective
where the 'health and safety' culture backed up by
compensation chasing lawyers is doing much to stifle
initiative,particularly in schools.I'm not advocating
a total disregard of risk here,by the way,just an
intelligent anticipation of it and making use of
whatever training facilities are available.Not,as
seems to be the case here,if you can't elininate all
risk you don't do it.
Cheers
Andy Airey

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
> <stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
> > We shouldn't forget John Guzzwell who in 1959

returned to his home

> port
> > in British Colombia after having built a wooden

yacht called Trekka

> and
> > sailed it around the world. Trekka was (is, if

it's still a museum

> > exhibit) a Jack Laurent Giles design, 21'/18.5' x

6.5' x 4.5' with

> 1.4
> > long tons of displacement. It had two stayed

masts.

> >
> > Guzzwell was no idiot.
> >
> > Howard
>
> Amen! His book "Trekka Round the World" is in the

hands of the USPS

> headed my way. I am looking forward to reading it. I

own his building

> book also. I wish the plans for Trekka were

available. Given the

> current state of affairs at the remnants of Lauernt

Giles, I

> seriously doubt that the plans can be purchased.
>
> Wayne
> In the Swamp.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or

flogging dead horses

> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,

thanks, Fred' posts

> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,

and snip away

> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,

Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349

> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:

bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

---------------------------------
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Disagree, Disagree, The work-boats of the Chesapeake have always been used
for leisure also. There are many "log canoes" that still crab all day and
race all nite!
I believe John Gardner pointed out Boston Power Dories were the first to use
power to get the fish to market and "beat the fleet".
Comboat

----- Original Message -----
From: "ANDREW AIREY" <andyairey@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge

> It was also one of the first things to be categorised
> as a 'leisure activity'.Get that tag on anything and
> you can treble the prices
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
> --- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> >>"At sea, the best is barely good enough."
> >>Bill
>
> > If you wait until you have the best, you'll never
> leave the dock.
> > Roger
>
> =========================================
> A quick history of pleasure boating [from my
> perspective].
> =========================================
>
> Leisure time didn't really exist prior to about 1890.
> All boating was work boating.
>
> About then, a fashion developed that the ultra wealthy
> (and their servants) started to foster 'spare no
> expense'
> boat racing and boat cruising. A big part of the
> reasoning
> was to be 'elite' and to that end: Expensive boats
> were good.
> Mine is bigger than yours, I am better than you
> because
> my toilets are gold plated, etc.
>
> Middle of the 20th century: A 'middle class' developed
> which aspired to be 'elite' and marketers sold to this
> market; hence the fleet of plastic yachts and sloops
> we see
> today. The ultra wealthy, then and now, look down
> their
> noses at the workboaters and middle-class boaters and
> sought to make their boats [and racing rules] even
> more
> expensive to distinguish themselves from the masses.
>
> Indeed to the 'workboat'ers' at sea; 'Good enough is
> good enough'.
>
> [Not for Bill, of course.] But the ultra wealthy tend
> to rationalize
> that no expense shall be spared; to validate that they
> are elite.
> IOW, "The best is barely good enough."
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with
voicemailhttp://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

It was also one of the first things to be categorised
as a 'leisure activity'.Get that tag on anything and
you can treble the prices
Cheers
Andy Airey
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

>>"At sea, the best is barely good enough."
>>Bill

> If you wait until you have the best, you'll never

leave the dock.

> Roger

=========================================
A quick history of pleasure boating [from my
perspective].
=========================================

Leisure time didn't really exist prior to about 1890.
All boating was work boating.

About then, a fashion developed that the ultra wealthy
(and their servants) started to foster 'spare no
expense'
boat racing and boat cruising. A big part of the
reasoning
was to be 'elite' and to that end: Expensive boats
were good.
Mine is bigger than yours, I am better than you
because
my toilets are gold plated, etc.

Middle of the 20th century: A 'middle class' developed
which aspired to be 'elite' and marketers sold to this
market; hence the fleet of plastic yachts and sloops
we see
today. The ultra wealthy, then and now, look down
their
noses at the workboaters and middle-class boaters and
sought to make their boats [and racing rules] even
more
expensive to distinguish themselves from the masses.

Indeed to the 'workboat'ers' at sea; 'Good enough is
good enough'.

[Not for Bill, of course.] But the ultra wealthy tend
to rationalize
that no expense shall be spared; to validate that they
are elite.
IOW, "The best is barely good enough."

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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Hey, Nutty,
In the 1920's some auto mfrs. used the starter as a generator also. However
is your one-sheet boat a" virtual "or is it real? Do you sail, row, or push
it ?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne" <wtorry@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:30 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge-Thunderbird

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
> <stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
> > We shouldn't forget John Guzzwell who in 1959 returned to his home
> port
> > in British Colombia after having built a wooden yacht called Trekka
> and
> > sailed it around the world. Trekka was (is, if it's still a museum
> > exhibit) a Jack Laurent Giles design, 21'/18.5' x 6.5' x 4.5' with
> 1.4
> > long tons of displacement. It had two stayed masts.
> >
> > Guzzwell was no idiot.
> >
> > Howard
>
> Amen! His book "Trekka Round the World" is in the hands of the USPS
> headed my way. I am looking forward to reading it. I own his building
> book also. I wish the plans for Trekka were available. Given the
> current state of affairs at the remnants of Lauernt Giles, I
> seriously doubt that the plans can be purchased.
>
> Wayne
> In the Swamp.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "muscongus" <muscongus@f...> wrote:

> Wayne,
> That's a great looking boat! Is it a Caledonia Yawl or...?
> Jack Manley

Jack,

Yes.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

PS: Boy, I am in some kind of mood today.

Yes, Jack, she is a Caledonia yawl. Balanced lug yawl rig. Decked fore
and aft. 900 pounds in sailing trim without skipper or gear aboard.
After careful consideration, I have decided that she's a keeper.

Wayne

Wayne,
That's a great looking boat! Is it a Caledonia Yawl or...?
Jack Manley

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> >>"At sea, the best is barely good enough."
> >>Bill
>
> > If you wait until you have the best, you'll never leave the dock.
> > Roger

Bruce,

No where did I mention cost. Quite the contrary in the case of the
boat I commissioned. I searched high and low until I found a builder
who's experience and philosophy closely matched mine. The fact that
his shop rate was also the lowest of the builders I talked to was a
bonus.

John came from a Norwegian fishing family. Lobster fishing primarily.
Very practical. Very conscious of my money he was spending. Case in
point: $5 CDN/BF mahogany, $1-$2 CDN/BF cedar and spruce. Unheard of
lumber prices anywhere else I looked. His workboat background
surfaced whenever he said, "What's all the fuss about? It's only a
yacht." In his mind, workboats got more attention because folk's
lives depended on them. My sails from Gambell & Hunter are the best I
found for the price. Not the least expensive nor the most expensive.

Is there more brightwork on my boat than a fishing boat? Yes. Did it
cost more than paint? No. Are all of the fasteners silicon bronze?
Yes. Did they cost more? Maybe. Maybe not in the long run. Does the
boat have fasteners backing up critical structural joints? You bet!
That's the way John and I wanted it. More expensive? Perhaps. Worth
every penny? In my mind, yes.

To me, "At sea, the best is barely good enough." doesn't
automatically mean more expensive. On the other hand, putting "cheap"
materials in a boat is often false economy and costs more in the long
run than starting with better grade materials.

When my grandkids climb aboard the boat, or I finally sail across
Dixon Entrance and Hecate Strait, you can bet your Bippy that "...the
best is barely good enough."

Wayne
In the Swamp.

>>"At sea, the best is barely good enough."
>>Bill

> If you wait until you have the best, you'll never leave the dock.
> Roger

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@e...> wrote:

> If you wait until you have the best, you'll never leave the dock.
>
> Roger ("mission adequate" is the rule)

Not true. You scale back on the project until the best matches the
budget. You then leave the dock grinning from ear to ear.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290472089

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

> In fact the song "The best is barely good enough" comes from a John

Kay (of Steppenwolf) album from 1978.

>
> I wonder who said it first? Kay, or Guzz?
>
> Bill

Or me????????? LMAO!

Wayne
In the Swamp.

If you wait until you have the best, you'll never leave the dock.

Roger ("mission adequate" is the rule)
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne" <wtorry@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:28 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
>> Hi,
> ...
>
>> Interestingly, this same John Guzwell has been quoted as saying "At
> sea, the best is barely good enough."
>>
>> Bill
>
> Bill,
>
> Nobody will ever quote me, but John Guzzwell's words match my approach
> to boats. In fact, I think I have said very nearly the same thing
> before. Perhaps I read it in John's book on boat building and it sunk
> in my brain.
>
> Wayne
> In the Swamp.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In fact the song "The best is barely good enough" comes from a John Kay (of Steppenwolf) album from 1978.

I wonder who said it first? Kay, or Guzz?

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 2:28 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
...

> Interestingly, this same John Guzwell has been quoted as saying "At
sea, the best is barely good enough."
>
> Bill

Bill,

Nobody will ever quote me, but John Guzzwell's words match my approach
to boats. In fact, I think I have said very nearly the same thing
before. Perhaps I read it in John's book on boat building and it sunk
in my brain.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

> Hi,

...

> Interestingly, this same John Guzwell has been quoted as saying "At

sea, the best is barely good enough."

>
> Bill

Bill,

Nobody will ever quote me, but John Guzzwell's words match my approach
to boats. In fact, I think I have said very nearly the same thing
before. Perhaps I read it in John's book on boat building and it sunk
in my brain.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

I plead guilty. Several years ago there was an article in WoodenBoat
about a new yacht Guzzwel built for his wife, a little gem about the
size of Trekka (the boat, not the wife).

It was made of wood, of course, cold moulded as I recall, but using a
glue other than epoxy, because he is allergic to the stuff.

In this discussion we seem to have forgotten Phil Bolger's Seabird '86
design, a 23' plywood raised-deck boat with a dipping lugsail, meant to
be capable of going more-or-less anywhere. Unline the original Seabird,
she has no centreboard, buta fixed full-length keel.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Somebody (sorry, I've forgotten who) mentioned the great John Guzwell
and his Trekka - an exceedingly well-found boat.
>
> Interestingly, this same John Guzwell has been quoted as saying "At
sea, the best is barely good enough."

Hi,

Somebody (sorry, I've forgotten who) mentioned the great John Guzwell and his Trekka - an exceedingly well-found boat.

Interestingly, this same John Guzwell has been quoted as saying "At sea, the best is barely good enough."

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon" <l_gordon_nica@y...>
wrote:

> This is a very long thread and I hesitated to reply, but the timing is
> correct since it is 129 years ago (June 15, 1876 to Aug. 21) that
> Alfred Johnson made the first sole trip across the North Atlantic in
> the 19' dory "Yankee". One photo under sail shows a single stayed mast
> and another on the dry shows no stays.
>
> There must be something about June....
>
> Lewis

Lewis,

This may sound like I am nit picking, but you have picked a subject I
am very passionate about.

Johnson's boat was "Centennial", 20' LOA x 5'-9", gaff cutter rigged.
Lines and building information in John Gardner's "Wooden Boats to Build
and Use", Chapter 6, page 53.

Phil Bolger designed "Centennial II". Images somewehre in one of the
Bolger group areas.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

I have no idea of what this thread is actually about but in the
17oo's and 1800's many dories that fished the Grand Banks and
further out with steel men and loads of dead fish sailed and rowed
back to land after either being left out at sea from wrecks or fog
and making port again against all odds. Those dories wre uually 20
ft long and had very lttle freeboard when loaded. I remember one
dory that when the water ran out the men would suck out the organs
of some of the fish to keep partially hydrated and all of them
prayed for rain. When those men would make port they would be
treated like princes because they were snatched from the jaws of
death.

These men had only very basic avgation skills and probably had no
compass let alone a good time piece and sextant. Any boat can get
lucky and make any journey. Some things are possible but not
probable.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Lewis E. Gordon"
<l_gordon_nica@y...> wrote:

> I have lent out my copy of "The Boats They Sailed In', and can't
> remember the name of the fellow you mentioned; but the boat was

very

> well constructed from the "odds and ends" he scrounged. However, he
> built the boat and sailed from personal necessity, not to

participate

> in a "race".
>
> This is a very long thread and I hesitated to reply, but the

timing is

> correct since it is 129 years ago (June 15, 1876 to Aug. 21) that
> Alfred Johnson made the first sole trip across the North Atlantic

> the 19' dory "Yankee". One photo under sail shows a single stayed

mast

> and another on the dry shows no stays.
>
> There must be something about June....
>
> Lewis
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...>

wrote:

> > >>I'm not sure about shallow draft (4.5 ft), but Badger, the junk
> rigged dory
> > sailed by Pete and Annie Hill covered a good part of both the

North and

> > South Atlantic Oceans. Its masts were unstayed.>>
> >
> > It was 34 feet long and displaced 10,000 pounds. Of course there
> was also that idiot who sailed a 28 foot dory made from odds and

ends

> across the Atlantic - I forget his name, but the general opinion is
> that he was damn lucky to survive.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have lent out my copy of "The Boats They Sailed In', and can't
remember the name of the fellow you mentioned; but the boat was very
well constructed from the "odds and ends" he scrounged. However, he
built the boat and sailed from personal necessity, not to participate
in a "race".

This is a very long thread and I hesitated to reply, but the timing is
correct since it is 129 years ago (June 15, 1876 to Aug. 21) that
Alfred Johnson made the first sole trip across the North Atlantic in
the 19' dory "Yankee". One photo under sail shows a single stayed mast
and another on the dry shows no stays.

There must be something about June....

Lewis

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
> >>I'm not sure about shallow draft (4.5 ft), but Badger, the junk
rigged dory
> sailed by Pete and Annie Hill covered a good part of both the North and
> South Atlantic Oceans. Its masts were unstayed.>>
>
> It was 34 feet long and displaced 10,000 pounds. Of course there
was also that idiot who sailed a 28 foot dory made from odds and ends
across the Atlantic - I forget his name, but the general opinion is
that he was damn lucky to survive.
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

More on tiny ocean crossers:

At:http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/farthing.htm...

... you will find something about a 14'8" junk-rigged sloop intended to
be a world cruiser.

Jay R. Benford designed a 14' cutter that did 10,000 miles of ocean
cruising before hitting a reef too hard off Noumea. The owner built a
9'-long replacement that he sailed to Australia. More at:

http://www.benford.us/index.html?pcty/

Howard

My information about Trekka/Colombia came from "Laurent Giles and His
Yacht Designs" by Lee and Philpott, published 1991 by International
Marine. There are two pages on this design, but no lines plan or
offsets.

It seems quite likely that they would sell the plans.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <wtorry@v...> wrote:
> Thanks, Howard. Their new and imprved web site didn't seem very
home
> built friendly. How did you get the name of the Trekka/Columbia
> design? Are they answering emails or do you have to buy a fancy
> brochure?
>
> The problems I know about revolve around a rather large boat which
is
> essentialy unsailable as I understand it. Nasty court case. The
> principles at Laurent Giles left the Naval Architect's Association
> and hid behind bankruptcy rather than pay damages. Not the kind of
> conduct I would want to condone with a plans purchase.
>
>http://laurentgiles.com/index.html
>
> Wayne
> In the Swamp.

It is on desplay in the Maritine Museum in Victoria BC a worth see if
you are in the area. The ship yard where it was built is now gone and a
hotel fills its space. The museum has a great salection of model ships
in the history of the NW USA and Canada.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <wtorry@v...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
> <stephensonhw@a...> wrote:
> > We shouldn't forget John Guzzwell who in 1959 returned to his home
> port
> > in British Colombia after having built a wooden yacht called Trekka
> and
> > sailed it around the world. Trekka was (is, if it's still a museum
> > exhibit) a Jack Laurent Giles design, 21'/18.5' x 6.5' x 4.5' with
> 1.4
> > long tons of displacement. It had two stayed masts.
> >
> > Guzzwell was no idiot.
> >
> > Howard

Bruce, Without too much trouble, could you put up the variant on the
Topaz, #650-2. I can't find vol 19, #4 of MAIB which somebody
mentioned. I'm planning a Topaz Varation myself, so I can't believe I
missed it. Thanks, Clyde

Bruce Hallman wrote:

> Without a doubt, the answer would be Bolger's
> _Col. H.G. Hassler_ designed of, course, after the
> spirt and intentions of Jester's designer, owner and

Caveat definitely Emptor
Cheers
Andy Airey
--- Wayne <wtorry@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:

> So what's happened to them, Wayne? The company's

website, at

>http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/, updated as recently

as April this

> year, boasts that they have a complete archive and

will sell stock

> plans. They even have a brochure of stock plans.
>
> "Colombia" is the name they've given to the stock

design based on

> Trekka. Over 75 of them have been built, mostly by

amateurs.

>
> Howard

Thanks, Howard. Their new and imprved web site didn't
seem very home
built friendly. How did you get the name of the
Trekka/Columbia
design? Are they answering emails or do you have to
buy a fancy
brochure?

The problems I know about revolve around a rather
large boat which is
essentialy unsailable as I understand it. Nasty court
case. The
principles at Laurent Giles left the Naval Architect's
Association
and hid behind bankruptcy rather than pay damages. Not
the kind of
conduct I would want to condone with a plans purchase.

http://laurentgiles.com/index.html

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photoshttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com

I was just using the folkboat as an example of a
design with known ocean crossing capabilities but
which someone in an earlier email had said would not
pass the RCD for that purpose.If so,then it would not
be certified for that purpose if constructed by a
commercial yard for sale.What the position would be if
a commercial yard built a boat to your instructions I
wouldn't know which is why I asked if anyone had any
practical experience of the directives application or
it's enforcement,if any.I don't suppose that there
would be anything to stop you taking your
new,coastally certified,folkboat across the atlantic
but don't expect much sympathy from your insurers if
you hit anything.At the end of the day it comes down
to your sense of adventure,common sense or lack
thereof.I vaguely remember Selway-Fisher have an
enclosed ocean crosser of about 8'long in their
catalogue.That realy would be claustrophobic.
Cheers
Andy
Ps If you want an entertaining read with a lot of
common sense advice get 'The art of coarse cruising'
by Michael Green it only deals with coastal cruising
though

--- Wayne <wtorry@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY
<andyairey@y...> wrote:

So if you want to build your own folkboat for an

> ocean crossing you can do so - you just can't build
> them commercially for that purpose.
> Cheers
> Andy Airey

Andy,

That is good news. Folks can still sail Wayfarers
across the Channel
without fear of the trip being one-way. Do the French
really patrol
their shores looking for wee boats trying to slip
across the Channel or
away to see? How do they justify the Mini-transat
boats?

As for building a Folkboat in your back garden, not
likely. The
International Folkboat Association keeps a tight reign
on the plans.
Commercial builders only is my understanding.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

---------------------------------
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@y...> wrote:

So if you want to build your own folkboat for an
> ocean crossing you can do so - you just can't build
> them commercially for that purpose.
> Cheers
> Andy Airey

Andy,

That is good news. Folks can still sail Wayfarers across the Channel
without fear of the trip being one-way. Do the French really patrol
their shores looking for wee boats trying to slip across the Channel or
away to see? How do they justify the Mini-transat boats?

As for building a Folkboat in your back garden, not likely. The
International Folkboat Association keeps a tight reign on the plans.
Commercial builders only is my understanding.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:

> So what's happened to them, Wayne? The company's website, at
>http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/, updated as recently as April this
> year, boasts that they have a complete archive and will sell stock
> plans. They even have a brochure of stock plans.
>
> "Colombia" is the name they've given to the stock design based on
> Trekka. Over 75 of them have been built, mostly by amateurs.
>
> Howard

So what's happened to them, Wayne? The company's website, at
http://www.laurentgiles.co.uk/, updated as recently as April this
year, boasts that they have a complete archive and will sell stock
plans. They even have a brochure of stock plans.

"Colombia" is the name they've given to the stock design based on
Trekka. Over 75 of them have been built, mostly by amateurs.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne" <wtorry@v...> wrote:
> I wish the plans for Trekka were available. Given the
> current state of affairs at the remnants of Lauernt Giles, I
> seriously doubt that the plans can be purchased.
>
> Wayne
> In the Swamp.

--- John Bell <smallboatdesigner@...>
wrote:

---------------------------------
I agree with the estimable Mr. Samson here.

Just because something "can" doesn't mean it "should".

No but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't either - the
world is far too full of control freaks prepared to
tell us how to live our lives at the drop of a hat.
Has anyone had any practical experience of the
Recreational Craft Directive.As far as I can see from
a brief look on the web - not including the uk.gov
site,which is not going to win any prizes for plain
English - provided you don't sell it for five years
you can go to sea in what you like,even the proverbial
sieve.So if you want to build your own folkboat for an
ocean crossing you can do so - you just can't build
them commercially for that purpose.
Cheers
Andy Airey

___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photoshttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson"
<stephensonhw@a...> wrote:

> We shouldn't forget John Guzzwell who in 1959 returned to his home

port

> in British Colombia after having built a wooden yacht called Trekka

and

> sailed it around the world. Trekka was (is, if it's still a museum
> exhibit) a Jack Laurent Giles design, 21'/18.5' x 6.5' x 4.5' with

1.4

> long tons of displacement. It had two stayed masts.
>
> Guzzwell was no idiot.
>
> Howard

Amen! His book "Trekka Round the World" is in the hands of the USPS
headed my way. I am looking forward to reading it. I own his building
book also. I wish the plans for Trekka were available. Given the
current state of affairs at the remnants of Lauernt Giles, I
seriously doubt that the plans can be purchased.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jim Pope <james.pope1@c...> wrote:
> I think this word, "idiot", is uncalled for.
>
> You're correct - sorry. Perhaps "rather irresponsible young man"

would be a more accurate description of the fellow

> Bill

No worries. Thanks. Much better.

The records of full of the folks who took what they had and sailed to
where they wanted to go and survived. There are reports of those who
didn't make it. I guess we'll never know the real tally of "made its"
and "didn't make its". My unofficial total says the "made its" are
ahead.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

We shouldn't forget John Guzzwell who in 1959 returned to his home port
in British Colombia after having built a wooden yacht called Trekka and
sailed it around the world. Trekka was (is, if it's still a museum
exhibit) a Jack Laurent Giles design, 21'/18.5' x 6.5' x 4.5' with 1.4
long tons of displacement. It had two stayed masts.

Guzzwell was no idiot.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jim Pope <james.pope1@c...> wrote:
I think this word, "idiot", is uncalled for.

You're correct - sorry. Perhaps "rather irresponsible young man" would be a more accurate description of the fellow (I can't remember his name) who built his Mouette class dory "Eric the Red" from old floorboards and other poor quality materials then sailed the Atlantic in it.

I wonder how mamy others have tried to emulate him and have never been seen again?

Have you ever seen Frank Dye's film of his crossing from England to Norway in a 16' Wayfarer dinghy? It'd put you off sailing for life - certainly his crew (not Margaret) never stepped in a boat again.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Jim Pope <james.pope1@c...> wrote:
I think this word, "idiot", is uncalled for.

It isn't a Bolger boat. It does have a stayed mast. It's built of
plywood. The plans are dirt cheap. Used boats can be had for a song.
You could get most/all the hardware and the keel from a basket case
hull for next to nothing. Build a new hull and recycle the
keel/hardware. There was an unfinished Thunderbird hull up in Ontario
looking for a home awhile back. Not sure what happened to it. Maybe a
chainsaw ate it. In capable hands, a Thunderbird sailed from Biloxi, MS
to Baffin Island, along the coast of Greenland, around Iceland to
Europe. The boat later sailed from California 2/3 of the way across the
Pacific where it was sold.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

I agree with the estimable Mr. Samson here.

Just because something "can" doesn't mean it "should". Being shaken about
like a ball bearing in a beer can would not be fun or safe. In the '79
Fastnet storm many of the boats that were abandoned were not abandoned
because they were sinking. Instead, the violent motion on board made
fighting for survival in a liferaft appear more desirable than staying on an
otherwise intact vessel.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge

| >>Ignoring considerations of crew comfort and speed, I'd suggest that any
| rugged, water-tight, vessel can keep the sea. Think messages in a bottle.
| Luck is necessary for any size vessel.>>
|
| I'd suggest that crew comfort is way up there in the considerations.
Remember Dr Nenad Belic who attempted an Atlantic crossing in a 21'
Bolger-designed rowboat? The rowboat made it across (arriving upside down
after a series of storms) but it arrived without Dr Belic.
|
| This rowboat (BWAOM chapter 13) was designed for cruising on Lake
Michigan, but PCB notes the possibility of a dream cruise across the North
Pacific. Seems that turned into a nightmare cruise across the North
Atlantic. Seehttp://cns.physics.gatech.edu/~predrag/friends/Nenad/
|
| The vessel was certainly rugged and watertight enough to cross the ocean -
unfortunately the skipper, despite great physical strength and huge amounts
of previous experience, wasn't.
|
| Bill
|
|
|
|
| [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
|
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|

>>Ignoring considerations of crew comfort and speed, I'd suggest that any

rugged, water-tight, vessel can keep the sea. Think messages in a bottle.
Luck is necessary for any size vessel.>>

I'd suggest that crew comfort is way up there in the considerations. Remember Dr Nenad Belic who attempted an Atlantic crossing in a 21' Bolger-designed rowboat? The rowboat made it across (arriving upside down after a series of storms) but it arrived without Dr Belic.

This rowboat (BWAOM chapter 13) was designed for cruising on Lake Michigan, but PCB notes the possibility of a dream cruise across the North Pacific. Seems that turned into a nightmare cruise across the North Atlantic. Seehttp://cns.physics.gatech.edu/~predrag/friends/Nenad/

The vessel was certainly rugged and watertight enough to cross the ocean - unfortunately the skipper, despite great physical strength and huge amounts of previous experience, wasn't.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here's a guy who sailed around the world in a 19ft open boat.

Then started non-stop in a 20ft cabin boat.

http://www.dixdesign.com/steward.htm

Chris

>rugged watertight vessel

I think that dreams of taking a Micro across an ocean are mostly
just a dream because the hull speed it too slow, making it a poor
choice to run away from a storm.

Bolger has written that shallow draft can be an advantage because the
hull can skitter away from a breaking wave.

Unstayed masts have an advantage of reduced windage aloft during
a hurricane, hove to, or at anchor.

PB&F described Hassle as being able to withstand anything at sea
up to (perhaps) even being dragged under the full length of a Supertanker
[written allegorically]. In essence Col. HG Hassle shares some qualities with a
submarine.

The short hull length means slower crossings, and PB&F address this
problem my making the cabin of Hassler more habitiable, such as
having the Lexan windows all around to stave off claustrophobia,
the generator and watermaker are foot powered to provide exercise,
the helm seat and and berth are fully gimbled to reduce fatigue.
It even has an expansive 'countertop' for comfortable cooking,
worksurface for canning fish, workbench, etc..

Just nit-picking the "unstayed" part of your recommendations.

Ignoring considerations of crew comfort and speed, I'd suggest that any
rugged, water-tight, vessel can keep the sea. Think messages in a bottle.
Luck is necessary for any size vessel.

I can't find it now, but a recent book dealing with seaworthiness finished
each section with "Think upside down."

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>

>>>I'm not sure about shallow draft (4.5 ft), but Badger, the junk rigged
>>>dory
> sailed by Pete and Annie Hill covered a good part of both the North and
> South Atlantic Oceans. Its masts were unstayed.>>
>
> It was 34 feet long and displaced 10,000 pounds. Of course there was also
> that idiot who sailed a 28 foot dory made from odds and ends across the
> Atlantic - I forget his name, but the general opinion is that he was damn
> lucky to survive.
>
> Bill

>>I'm not sure about shallow draft (4.5 ft), but Badger, the junk rigged dory

sailed by Pete and Annie Hill covered a good part of both the North and
South Atlantic Oceans. Its masts were unstayed.>>

It was 34 feet long and displaced 10,000 pounds. Of course there was also that idiot who sailed a 28 foot dory made from odds and ends across the Atlantic - I forget his name, but the general opinion is that he was damn lucky to survive.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm not sure about shallow draft (4.5 ft), but Badger, the junk rigged dory
sailed by Pete and Annie Hill covered a good part of both the North and
South Atlantic Oceans. Its masts were unstayed.

Check out Annie's book "Voyaging on a Small Income," and/or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BadgerOwnerBuilders/

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>

> As a reality check, perhaps those who advocate racing across the Atlantic
> in shallow draft boats with unstayed masts and quaint sails (which I love,
> but in their place) should take a look at some of the film of WWII convoys
> crossing the pond in a bit of a breeze with 30+ foot waves.
>
> Have any of the advocates of crossing the Pond in a Micro actually done
> any ocean sailing - even in a large well-found heavy displacement yacht?
> It's can be an chastening experience, getting even the most hardened
> aetheists on their knees praying (between barfs) to be set ashore.
>
> I'd strongly recommend anybody who plans setting out across the Atlantic
> in a home-built boat to first spend some time crewing for an experienced
> skipper or two on transatlantic sailing trips in all conditions.

Will Samson wrote:

> As a reality check, perhaps those who advocate racing across the
> Atlantic in shallow draft boats with unstayed masts and quaint sails
> (which I love, but in their place) should take a look at some of the
> film of WWII convoys crossing the pond in a bit of a breeze with 30+
> foot waves.
>
> Have any of the advocates of crossing the Pond in a Micro actually
> done any ocean sailing - even in a large well-found heavy displacement
> yacht? It's can be an chastening experience, getting even the most
> hardened aetheists on their knees praying (between barfs) to be set
> ashore.
>
> I'd strongly recommend anybody who plans setting out across the
> Atlantic in a home-built boat to first spend some time crewing for an
> experienced skipper or two on transatlantic sailing trips in all
> conditions.
>
> Bill
>

Amen

Jim

As a reality check, perhaps those who advocate racing across the Atlantic in shallow draft boats with unstayed masts and quaint sails (which I love, but in their place) should take a look at some of the film of WWII convoys crossing the pond in a bit of a breeze with 30+ foot waves.

Have any of the advocates of crossing the Pond in a Micro actually done any ocean sailing - even in a large well-found heavy displacement yacht? It's can be an chastening experience, getting even the most hardened aetheists on their knees praying (between barfs) to be set ashore.

I'd strongly recommend anybody who plans setting out across the Atlantic in a home-built boat to first spend some time crewing for an experienced skipper or two on transatlantic sailing trips in all conditions.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

> The stability curve calculated by Bolger is in WB 157 page 42. It

assumes the crew weight (500 lb) is at the lee rail. I guess if the
crew were to jump overboard she'd recover more easily ;-)

>
> It also mentions that with the addition of a 950 lb 12mm steel shoe

covering the bottom the stability would be greatly improved so that
she could go beyond 90 degrees and self right. If the spars remain
intact and buoyant, she'd then self-right from around 140 degrees, if
I'm reading the graph right.

>
> Bill
>
> PS Whether one agrees with it or not, the European Recreational

Craft Directive does not consider any craft of less than 3 tonnes
displacement to be fit for the open ocean. That rules out the
Folkboat, too.

Like I said, put some lead in her belly and she will be just fine.
There wouldn't be 500 pounds of crew on board, let alone on the lee
rail.

It is a crying shame that the deaf, dumb and blind beaurocrats in
Brussles have legislated nautical heritage out of exisitance. Imagine
if these "rules" had been in effect when the little boats evacuated
the troops from Dunkirk. Shameful.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

The stability curve calculated by Bolger is in WB 157 page 42. It assumes the crew weight (500 lb) is at the lee rail. I guess if the crew were to jump overboard she'd recover more easily ;-)

It also mentions that with the addition of a 950 lb 12mm steel shoe covering the bottom the stability would be greatly improved so that she could go beyond 90 degrees and self right. If the spars remain intact and buoyant, she'd then self-right from around 140 degrees, if I'm reading the graph right.

Bill

PS Whether one agrees with it or not, the European Recreational Craft Directive does not consider any craft of less than 3 tonnes displacement to be fit for the open ocean. That rules out the Folkboat, too.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Hallman
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge

> St Valerie passes the point of no return at a
> heel angle of between 75 and 80 degrees.
> Bill

How did you calculate this? With such heavy ballast (water) down
low, plus such large watertight buoyancy up high 80 degrees
just doesn't sound right.

I could see a zone of inverse stability above 150 degrees
or so, but any sea which could toss her upside down would soon
toss her right side up again. Indeed, when I look at St. Valerie
I am reminded of the stability of a punching bag.

Bolger rules!!!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

> One thing's for sure, you wouldn't be allowed to sail back from a

French port - under the European system St Valerie is miles off meeting
the criteria for open ocean work and wouldn't be allowed to leave
harbour.

>
> Bill

Don't go there.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

> St Valerie passes the point of no return at a
> heel angle of between 75 and 80 degrees.
> Bill

How did you calculate this? With such heavy ballast (water) down
low, plus such large watertight buoyancy up high 80 degrees
just doesn't sound right.

I could see a zone of inverse stability above 150 degrees
or so, but any sea which could toss her upside down would soon
toss her right side up again. Indeed, when I look at St. Valerie
I am reminded of the stability of a punching bag.

> Gary,
>
> What are the dimensions and other particulars of Design #459? 400

hour

> building time is certainly attractive. Do you have any feel for
> material costs today? Sail area and costs?
>
> Thanks for the great information.
>
> Wayne
> In the Swamp.

Wayne: The dimensions are 29'10" LOA, 7'10" beam, draft 7 feet with
a steel fin with 1,000 pounds of lead poured in the bottom. The
original mast was 28'9", stepped on the bottom. Sail area with the
lugs is 385 square feet; I recall that the junk rigged alternative
had a bit smaller sail.

I'll have to dig the plans out of storage, but it took 32 to 36
sheets of 1/2 inch marine ply to build the boat. I bought from Harbor
Sales in Baltimore which for a nominal charge also scarfed some of
the ply into three 32-foot long panels and one 27-foot long panel,
from which the topsides, bilge and bottom panels were cut. Bolger
specified a minimum of three layers of tape at the chines (2, 4 and 6
inch) inside and out; I actually used four on the outside, plus two
lawyers of cloth over the entire hull and the specified three layers
on the inside. Despite a pledge to keep track of time & materials, I
didn't. I think it took 10-12 gallons of epoxy and a five pound box
of Cabosil. The sails (two mains plus a 120 square foot storm sail)
cost $3,600 in 1987. The hull is built upside down and was ready to
turn over in 100 to 120 hours of time; although I did have a part-
time helper for that. Moving around a 32-foot sheet of half inch ply
is a bit of a job.

The boat seemed plenty stiff with the original 7 foot draft, but it
was a pain here in the shallow Gulf of Mexico, so with Bolger's input
it was shortened by 18 inches, and 200 pounds of lead added. It still
seemed adequate at with that, but not quite as stiff.

The original design include a linkage scheme that allowed an
autopilot to be mounted under the footwell-less cockpit and
connection to an inside tiller so the skipper could sit in the cabin
and hand steer. I only hooked up the part to the autopilot, which
worked but had too much play. Someone who is better at that sort of
work than I am could undoubtedly make that work very well.

Any other questions, please ask...

Gary

BTW, if you do the race and I still have my boat, I'll loan you the
storm sail, which also has a reef in it....

St Valerie passes the point of no return at a heel angle of between 75 and 80 degrees. I can't find the exact number for a Folkboat but I believe it's around 130 degrees.

St Val would probably float on her side if the masts were buoyant enough, but wouldn't self-right from anything beyond 80 degrees.

Anyway, why doesn't someone try the OSTAR in a St Valerie and let us know how you get on?

One thing's for sure, you wouldn't be allowed to sail back from a French port - under the European system St Valerie is miles off meeting the criteria for open ocean work and wouldn't be allowed to leave harbour.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

> Folkboat: - Encapsulated iron ballast of 2,750 lbs is over 50% of

her displacement of approximately 5,000 lbs. Not exactly light, and
the ballast is WAY down where it needs to be to make it a stiff
sailer. Also with the long keel she can sail herself to a large
extent.

>
> St Valerie? Can anybody give comparative figures? What about

stability curves?

>
> Bill

5,000 pounds isn't exactly heavy for a 25' boat. A 20' Flicka has
less ballast, more total displacement and enough blue water history
to prove that they aren't Harbor Queens. The modern Folkboat
equivalent, a Contessa 26, would be nice. There are a few around N.A.
for sale.

St. Valerie information, WoodenBoat Magazine.

/Bolger, Phil and Susanne Altenburger, authors:/"Shoal Draft and Self-
Righting," 157:36

The original idea for St. Valerie used a lot of water ballast to make
trailering possible on paper. For open water cruising lead could be
substituted for a lot of the water. Inside ballasted boats have a
long history on the deep blue sea.

I am quite sure that the 30' boats eventually took over the top
finishing spots in the OSTAR. If you really wanted to get back to the
spirit of Jester, a boat about the size of a Folkboat would satisfy
the intent of the first Jester. I suppose you could even enter one of
the Minitransat fliers. A junk rigged, heavily ballasted St. Pierre
dory? :-)

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Folkboat: - Encapsulated iron ballast of 2,750 lbs is over 50% of her displacement of approximately 5,000 lbs. Not exactly light, and the ballast is WAY down where it needs to be to make it a stiff sailer. Also with the long keel she can sail herself to a large extent.

St Valerie? Can anybody give comparative figures? What about stability curves?

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 10, 2005 4:57 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Jester Challenge

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:
>
> > What Bolger boat? Why not St. Valerie?
>
> As I have a Micro it might be fun to really have a go in that.
>
>
> C'mon guys, let's get real here. Take a look at lengths and
particularly the displacements of boats that have successfuly
completed the OSTAR and then compare them with the above. I think
you'd find that they'd be tossed around like corks and though the
boats might just survive, the crew certainly wouldn't.
>
> Bill

I'm not so sure. St. Valerie is quite substantial. The water ballast
compartments certainly solve the drinking water problem. Juggling the
numbers, I'm sure a compromise could be reached trading some of the
water ballast for lead. The cabin is large for one person. No
superstructure to add windage or be damaged by waves. The bulwarks
provide protection. The cockpit is self-bailing as I recall. Remember
Jester was a Folkboat. A rather slim and trim hull with little cabin
space, relatively light, and, unless modified, the cockpit was not
self-draining. Compared to some craft that have crossed and re-
crossed the Atlantic, a Folkboat or St. Valerie are luxury yachts.
Come to think of it, a Flicka would work as well.

Anybody know where I could see Gypsy and imagine her doubled?

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>...let's get real here...
> Take a look at lengths and particularly the displacements of boats
> Bill

The Bolger OSTAR 30, design #453 seems best suited of those mentioned
so far. I just plugged it into Hulls.exe and calculated a displacement
of 6,500 lbs for the waterline shown. Also the fully lowered daggerboard
has 1,500 lbs +/- of ballast down low, with a depth of perhaps 8 feet;
which should make the hull stiff and give it some grab against the
problem of surface drift while working to windward. 29'6" nearly maximizes
the displacement hull speed in the 30 foot class. The overall 'low tech'
nature of the design seems wise too, w/fewer things to break. And, just to
my intuitive eye, that long sleek hull sure looks fast, though when rendered
in 3D in hulls it has that classic Bolger 'pot-bellied' sharpie look too. The
hard dodger over the cockpit would give decent shelter from the elements
I think.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...> wrote:

>
> > What Bolger boat? Why not St. Valerie?
>
> As I have a Micro it might be fun to really have a go in that.
>
>
> C'mon guys, let's get real here. Take a look at lengths and

particularly the displacements of boats that have successfuly
completed the OSTAR and then compare them with the above. I think
you'd find that they'd be tossed around like corks and though the
boats might just survive, the crew certainly wouldn't.

>
> Bill

I'm not so sure. St. Valerie is quite substantial. The water ballast
compartments certainly solve the drinking water problem. Juggling the
numbers, I'm sure a compromise could be reached trading some of the
water ballast for lead. The cabin is large for one person. No
superstructure to add windage or be damaged by waves. The bulwarks
provide protection. The cockpit is self-bailing as I recall. Remember
Jester was a Folkboat. A rather slim and trim hull with little cabin
space, relatively light, and, unless modified, the cockpit was not
self-draining. Compared to some craft that have crossed and re-
crossed the Atlantic, a Folkboat or St. Valerie are luxury yachts.
Come to think of it, a Flicka would work as well.

Anybody know where I could see Gypsy and imagine her doubled?

Wayne
In the Swamp.

> What Bolger boat? Why not St. Valerie?

As I have a Micro it might be fun to really have a go in that.

C'mon guys, let's get real here. Take a look at lengths and particularly the displacements of boats that have successfuly completed the OSTAR and then compare them with the above. I think you'd find that they'd be tossed around like corks and though the boats might just survive, the crew certainly wouldn't.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> The 30' LOA isn't cast in stone, as I understand. Larger boats may be
> allowed. They may not be in the hunt for finish places, etc.
>
> Did you read the bit about the $2,000,000 insurance cover?
>
> What Bolger boat? Why not St. Valerie?

I took the 30' rule to be for any original OSTAR boats that wanted to
rerun 50 years later and that under 30' would be the norm.

I did think of the St Valerie but I am not sure of its Sea holding
abilities? I very much like it and the rig couldbe changed to a Junk,
but I would prefer the sheltered cabin of the Hasler design.

As I have a Micro it might be fun to really have a go in that with some
modifications for a covered cockpit along the lines of the Navigator
but with a more sloped shape like the Hasler.

Not that expensive to build either. Light displacement, cheap rigging.

HJ

Philip Smith wrote:

>--- Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
>Snip
>
>In the book was a design for a really neat boat called
>
>Moccasin, fast but not to any rule and able to carry
>truly terrifying areas of sail in light winds. I took
>one look and fell in love...
>
>Snip
>
>Isn't Moccasin a marvelous boat? I bet she's a real
>hoot to sail. Barn Owl is pretty damn cool too.
>
>Phil Smith
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>
>
>

Thanks Bruce

Being a bit green in the matter I'm a bit puzzled why
everyone shies away from steel on thermal insulation
grounds.This came up when I was after information on
Weston Martyr as well.It's not usually a consideration
with aluminium boats and the thermal conductivity of
aluminium is considerably higher than that of
steel.Plenty of people(including my prospective crew)
have lived on steel boats through an English winter
with no apparent ill effects
Cheers
Andy Airey
--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

---------------------------------

> Have any been built?
> Andy Airey

Col. Hassler was commissioned by Bob Johnston
and has never been built. Phil Bolger has written
that 'some day' he intends to revise the design
to be built of plywood [be aware that 'some day'
for Bolger is roughly the equivalent to mañana]
good intentions but don't hold your breath.

I think that plywood might be better, only because
of the thermal issue, but steel would be cheap and
very feasible; economically be cut from steel
sheet using CNC waterjet tools by a fab shop
and quickly welded up.

The one flaw in the logic of Col. Hassler (that I see)
is that a 20 foot length rule is arbitrary. For ocean

crossing 20 feet requires a dependency on the
use of a watermaker [which could break].
A 30 foot boat would allow you to carry
much more drinking water.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

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___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photoshttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com

--- Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:

Snip

In the book was a design for a really neat boat called

Moccasin, fast but not to any rule and able to carry
truly terrifying areas of sail in light winds. I took
one look and fell in love...

Snip

Isn't Moccasin a marvelous boat? I bet she's a real
hoot to sail. Barn Owl is pretty damn cool too.

Phil Smith

Many years ago when the OSTAR (and myself) were much younger (mid 70's)
I bought a book from International Marine by this guy named Bolger
because of the title "The Folding Schooner and other adventures in boat
design". In the book was a design for a really neat boat called
Moccasin, fast but not to any rule and able to carry truly terrifying
areas of sail in light winds. I took one look and fell in love and said
to myself " I could build that boat and win the OSTAR". Filled many a
long Arctic night with dreams of glory.

HJ

graeme19121984 wrote:

>Hi Martin,
>
>What about PCB's "Class lV Ostar Racer". 29ft6in. (Design#459 in
>this group's database, but the scan when enlarged appears to me to
>read Design#543)
>
>Though not junk rigged, she has a gaff main with a Bolger single
>luff reaching spinnaker, perhaps she could be junk rigged easily
>enough.
>
>Square she certainly is.
>
>For building on a shoestring budget, and can cruise 4 (comfort is
>relative).
>
>I've heard that the AS29 was designed for a Trans-Atlantic race, but
>my guess is that it was a developmental offshoot of the Class lV
>Ostar Racer.
>
>Personally, I admire its open ocean crossing capability combined
>with the daggerboard partially raised shallow water cruising. Also I
>think, with care, in calm protected water, the dagger board could be
>lifted to be flush with the bottom.This would allow a drying
>mooring, and especially the ability to be outboard-motored far up
>mangrove creeks to be moored securely and sit out the worst tropical
>cyclone.
>
>See it at Bolger4Photos group files:
>
>http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EOaoQl-lKcV5daC-
>6fiGXmFDFYRaQ1HINF_d8Olne0UKAwUBYSMEuwSJDTQHJNMv_i
>P9Vz0GhS7xZTk8XzegkXu
>O7wrPmgcwLYk48JE/pb_ostar_30.jpg ,or this shorter link
>
>http://tinyurl.com/bhyx7
>
>cheers
>graeme
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" <gbship@c...> wrote:

> Let me, immodestly, put in a plug for my boat, which was designed
> specifically for the OSTAR in the under 30 class. It's Design # 459

and

> I think I built the only one. It's basically a Gypsy doubled in size.

Gary,

What are the dimensions and other particulars of Design #459? 400 hour
building time is certainly attractive. Do you have any feel for
material costs today? Sail area and costs?

Thanks for the great information.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Let me, immodestly, put in a plug for my boat, which was designed
specifically for the OSTAR in the under 30 class. It's Design # 459 and
I think I built the only one. It's basically a Gypsy doubled in size.
Although it has been rigged as a dipping or balanced lugger, at one
point Bolger did draw up a chinese lug rig for it, although I never had
it made. Ir originally had a low, short cabin, and a 7-foot deep fixed
fin keel, set in a case like a centerboard case. It now has a longer,
higher cabin, and a pivoting wing keel, set in a higher case. Those
changes probably make it a poorer choice for trans-Atlantic work than
the original configuration.

There are some pictures of the wing-keel modifications posted somewhere
on the Bolger group, but I can't remember where! Also, a couple weeks
ago, there was an article and pictures of other boats on Duckworks that
were shot on a recent outing, and it includes a couple shots of #459,
one in its original configuration and the second with the new cabin.
(you have to be a member of Duckworks to get this article, but the
thumbnail on the title page is the boat in its original form. Go to
Duckworksmagazine.com and click on new, and then scroll down
to "Pictures from an outing last Sunday.")

Also, I think MAIB is carrying an update on the changes Bolger designed
for #459 and my experiences making them in the June 1 issues, but mine
hasn't arrived. July 1 will have an update on the changes, since I
wrote the article that is appearing June 1 about two years ago, and
there have been some changes and experienced gained.

One nice thing is this boat builds reasonably quickly; I'd guess i had
aobut 400 hours in mine. It would be more cramped than the 20 footer
singlehander(even though #459 is longer) but I'd guess the 20 footer
would also be slower.

Gary Blankenship

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Roberts"
<martin.me.roberts@b...> wrote:

> On the Junk Rig group site are the details of a challenge called the
> Jester challenge that tries to recreat something of the original

OSTAR

> races but for boats under 30ft.
>
> I would like to have a go in the 2010 race and wondered what sort of
> Bolger boat people might recommend for a transatlantic crossing
> possibly using the northern route.
>
> I would like a junk rig and asquare boat.
>
> Martin

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Roberts"
<martin.me.roberts@b...> wrote:

> On the Junk Rig group site are the details of a challenge called

the

> Jester challenge that tries to recreat something of the original

OSTAR

> races but for boats under 30ft.
>
> I would like to have a go in the 2010 race and wondered what sort

> Bolger boat people might recommend for a transatlantic crossing
> possibly using the northern route.
>
> I would like a junk rig and asquare boat.
>
> Martin

Martin,

The 30' LOA isn't cast in stone, as I understand. Larger boats may be
allowed. They may not be in the hunt for finish places, etc.

Did you read the bit about the $2,000,000 insurance cover?

What Bolger boat? Why not St. Valerie?

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Hi Martin,

What about PCB's "Class lV Ostar Racer". 29ft6in. (Design#459 in
this group's database, but the scan when enlarged appears to me to
read Design#543)

Though not junk rigged, she has a gaff main with a Bolger single
luff reaching spinnaker, perhaps she could be junk rigged easily
enough.

Square she certainly is.

For building on a shoestring budget, and can cruise 4 (comfort is
relative).

I've heard that the AS29 was designed for a Trans-Atlantic race, but
my guess is that it was a developmental offshoot of the Class lV
Ostar Racer.

Personally, I admire its open ocean crossing capability combined
with the daggerboard partially raised shallow water cruising. Also I
think, with care, in calm protected water, the dagger board could be
lifted to be flush with the bottom.This would allow a drying
mooring, and especially the ability to be outboard-motored far up
mangrove creeks to be moored securely and sit out the worst tropical
cyclone.

See it at Bolger4Photos group files:

http://f3.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EOaoQl-lKcV5daC-
6fiGXmFDFYRaQ1HINF_d8Olne0UKAwUBYSMEuwSJDTQHJNMv_i
P9Vz0GhS7xZTk8XzegkXu
O7wrPmgcwLYk48JE/pb_ostar_30.jpg ,or this shorter link

http://tinyurl.com/bhyx7

cheers
graeme

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Martin Roberts"
<martin.me.roberts@b...> wrote:

> On the Junk Rig group site are the details of a challenge called

the

> Jester challenge that tries to recreat something of the original

OSTAR

> races but for boats under 30ft.
>
> I would like to have a go in the 2010 race and wondered what sort

> Bolger boat people might recommend for a transatlantic crossing
> possibly using the northern route.
>
> I would like a junk rig and asquare boat.
>
> Martin

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

> The one flaw in the logic of Col. Hassler (that I see)
> is that a 20 foot length rule is arbitrary. For ocean
> crossing 20 feet requires a dependency on the
> use of a watermaker [which could break].
> A 30 foot boat would allow you to carry
> much more drinking water.

Nonsense and nonsense and nonsense. Manry didn't have a watermaker on
Tinkerbelle. Nick Grainger and friend managed to sail from Scotland
to somewhere beyond Tahiti in a 21' boat and no watermaker. Nick's
water ration for 2 was 50 gallons/100 days. They never came close to
using that much. You can put enough food and water in most any decent
18' boat for one person for 60 to 90 days. Storage space is probably
the limiting factor long before displacement becomes a problem. A
Drascombe Lugger or my Caledonia yawl have something like 700-900
pounds cargo capacity. I could stay gone forever with that much food
and water. The spirit of the Jester Challenge brings a self-built
SWAGGIE or one of Iain Oughtred's double-ended cruisers to mind. Col.
Hasler is overkill. SWAGGIE is probably overkill.

SWAGGIE
LOA - 5.5 m - 18 ft 2 in
Beam - 2.4 m - 7 ft 10 in
Draft - .8 m - 2 ft 8 in
Sail Area - 22.5 sq m - 247 sq ft
Headroom - 1.7 m - 5 ft 6 in
Headroom under dome - 2 m - 6 ft 6 in
Displacement 1200 kg - 2650 lbs bare ship, rigged
Displacement 1750 kg - 3850 lbs normal full load
Displacement 1900 kg - 4180 lbs maximum safe

Those figures indicate a comfortable 1,000 pound allowance for food
and water. More than enough for a trans-Atlantic crossing.

Nothing personal, Bruce. The facts don't support the need for A) 20'
boats with watermakers and B) 30' boats. OK, we would all love to
have a 26'-30' Paul Gartside designed and built gaff cutter to sail
over the horizon. Truth is, he and others have much smaller designs
capable of similar voyages.

Please don't shun me for mentioning other designers here. LOL.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

> Have any been built?
> Andy Airey

Have any been built?
Cheers
Andy Airey

--- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

---------------------------------
Without a doubt, the answer would be Bolger's
_Col. H.G. Hassler_ designed of, course, after the
spirt and intentions of Jester's designer, owner and
captain H.G. 'Blondie' Hassler. The sail is Bolger's
'junk rig' inspired Chinese Gaff rig.

http://hallman.org/bolger/635/

I am teetering back and forth on the
verge of building one myself.

> I would like to have a go in the 2010 race and

wondered what sort of

> Bolger boat people might recommend for a

transatlantic crossing

> possibly using the northern route.
>
> I would like a junk rig and asquare boat.
>
> Martin

Without a doubt, the answer would be Bolger's
_Col. H.G. Hassler_ designed of, course, after the
spirt and intentions of Jester's designer, owner and
captain H.G. 'Blondie' Hassler. The sail is Bolger's
'junk rig' inspired Chinese Gaff rig.

http://hallman.org/bolger/635/

I am teetering back and forth on the
verge of building one myself.

> I would like to have a go in the 2010 race and wondered what sort of
> Bolger boat people might recommend for a transatlantic crossing
> possibly using the northern route.
>
> I would like a junk rig and asquare boat.
>
> Martin

On the Junk Rig group site are the details of a challenge called the
Jester challenge that tries to recreat something of the original OSTAR
races but for boats under 30ft.

I would like to have a go in the 2010 race and wondered what sort of
Bolger boat people might recommend for a transatlantic crossing
possibly using the northern route.

I would like a junk rig and asquare boat.

Martin