RE: [bolger] Re: need source for sodium silicate
Hi Peter,
Yes, I'm going ahead with the bolted-on keel like yours. I put an inner
keelson in when I built the hull, so I've been planning to do it this way
all along, and see no reason to deviate from that plan now. I got the bronze
threaded rod last year and had saved a copy of the Duckworks article a long
time ago. If there's one thing I've learned in building boats, it's that the
sitting around cogitating about how to go about a certain process can
sometimes take four times as long as doing the actual work, so why not learn
from others and save myself the time?
Unfortunately the only photo I have available right now is of my boatshed
in the aftermath of the January blizzard - take my word for it, Micro's
under there someplace, but this set me back quite a bit:
http://gringo.smugmug.com/photos/15120451-M.jpg
By the time it stopped snowing I had over 3' of snow on top of the
collapsed tarp, bent poles, and crushed flouescent tubes and fixtures; it
took some gymnastics and several evenings to dig out enough to discover my
Micro was unharmed. I wanted to strip the tarps off and leave bare poles to
weather the storm, but I was dealing with an electrical surge that took out
all our appliances a few days prior and could not get out there to strip
it - life truly has some peculiar and indirect ways of getting in the way of
the boatbuilding project! I went out and cleared the snow off the roof every
several hours but the storm beat me when 8.5" of snow fell in 45 minutes
around 7am, accompanied by 70mph winds.
thanks all, for the help so far... will try to post a more complete update
with photos in the next week or so.
Paul Lefebvre
STILL building a Micro on Cape Cod...
Yes, I'm going ahead with the bolted-on keel like yours. I put an inner
keelson in when I built the hull, so I've been planning to do it this way
all along, and see no reason to deviate from that plan now. I got the bronze
threaded rod last year and had saved a copy of the Duckworks article a long
time ago. If there's one thing I've learned in building boats, it's that the
sitting around cogitating about how to go about a certain process can
sometimes take four times as long as doing the actual work, so why not learn
from others and save myself the time?
Unfortunately the only photo I have available right now is of my boatshed
in the aftermath of the January blizzard - take my word for it, Micro's
under there someplace, but this set me back quite a bit:
http://gringo.smugmug.com/photos/15120451-M.jpg
By the time it stopped snowing I had over 3' of snow on top of the
collapsed tarp, bent poles, and crushed flouescent tubes and fixtures; it
took some gymnastics and several evenings to dig out enough to discover my
Micro was unharmed. I wanted to strip the tarps off and leave bare poles to
weather the storm, but I was dealing with an electrical surge that took out
all our appliances a few days prior and could not get out there to strip
it - life truly has some peculiar and indirect ways of getting in the way of
the boatbuilding project! I went out and cleared the snow off the roof every
several hours but the storm beat me when 8.5" of snow fell in 45 minutes
around 7am, accompanied by 70mph winds.
thanks all, for the help so far... will try to post a more complete update
with photos in the next week or so.
Paul Lefebvre
STILL building a Micro on Cape Cod...
Hi All
Just as a sideline on the casting process a few years
ago a friend and I were experimenting with home
foundrywork.Our best effort was melting cast iron in a
furnace made from a 4 pint beer can,although we didn't
get enough metal to be useable.I think that the
conclusion we eventually came to was that the best way
forward was to concentrate on the pattern making and
try a local foundry for the pour,although 25 years
down the line finding a local foundry that will do
that sort of thing might be more of a problem.
One process we did try,which may be of interest for
more complex shapes,is to make the pattern out of
expanded polystyrene,add the runners and
risers,surround it with DRY silver sand(sea sand),and
pour the metal as quickly as possible onto the
runner.The idea is that the metal melts the
polystyrene ahead of itself as it runs into the mold
and then fills the mould before the sand has time to
collapse.We tried it with aluminium and the process
was sufficiently sensitive that the shape of the
polystyrene granules at the surface was reproduced.
Since the melting point of lead is lower than that of
aluminium I'd experiment first,bearing in mind that
the pattern is destroyed in the process.You do have to
make the usual allowances for shrinkage(particularly
with aluminium)but not for draft as you do with a
wooden pattern.
SAFETY NOTES
Any surface coming into contact with molten metal MUST
be dry.Molten metal coming into contact with moisture
is potentially EXPLOSIVE
Wear a face mask and some sort of breathing filter if
melting lead.Lead may fume if overheated and the fumes
are very poisonous.
Happy Casting
Andy Airey
PS Model and Allied Publications(MAP)publishers of
the'Model Engineer' do a pocketbook on home
foundrywork
and there have been a few articles on the process in
the mag in the past
--- Derek Waters <dgw@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Hi Paul
Long ago and far away I bought waterglass from a
pharmacy. More recently I
bought a litre bottle of the stuff from the nearest
chandlers - it's used by
the plastic boat crowd for something. I found it in
the same section as the
resins and cleaning products. It's cheap, and that
litre [quart] will
probably see me out - it has done a Micro keel mold
and numerous smaller
pours, and there's about threequarters left.
Preparation? None :) Just paint a moderately liberal
coat on. Assuming your
wood mold is 'lead-tight'. The waterglass will soak
into the wood. Allow it
to dry completely. Be careful to ensure that it hasn't
pooled or accumulated
in any corners. As you know everything must be bone
dry before you do the
pour.
One reasonably liberal application was sufficient to
deal with the keel
pour. The faces of the ply were charred but not to any
great depth. If I had
needed to I could probably have got another keel out
of the same mold.
FWIW, I ended up having the pour done into my mold at
a nearby battery
recyclers for less than the scrap metal cost of the
lead. Not as much fun as
doing it all yourself. I just got lazy :)
cheers
Derek
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
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---------------------------------
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___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photoshttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Just as a sideline on the casting process a few years
ago a friend and I were experimenting with home
foundrywork.Our best effort was melting cast iron in a
furnace made from a 4 pint beer can,although we didn't
get enough metal to be useable.I think that the
conclusion we eventually came to was that the best way
forward was to concentrate on the pattern making and
try a local foundry for the pour,although 25 years
down the line finding a local foundry that will do
that sort of thing might be more of a problem.
One process we did try,which may be of interest for
more complex shapes,is to make the pattern out of
expanded polystyrene,add the runners and
risers,surround it with DRY silver sand(sea sand),and
pour the metal as quickly as possible onto the
runner.The idea is that the metal melts the
polystyrene ahead of itself as it runs into the mold
and then fills the mould before the sand has time to
collapse.We tried it with aluminium and the process
was sufficiently sensitive that the shape of the
polystyrene granules at the surface was reproduced.
Since the melting point of lead is lower than that of
aluminium I'd experiment first,bearing in mind that
the pattern is destroyed in the process.You do have to
make the usual allowances for shrinkage(particularly
with aluminium)but not for draft as you do with a
wooden pattern.
SAFETY NOTES
Any surface coming into contact with molten metal MUST
be dry.Molten metal coming into contact with moisture
is potentially EXPLOSIVE
Wear a face mask and some sort of breathing filter if
melting lead.Lead may fume if overheated and the fumes
are very poisonous.
Happy Casting
Andy Airey
PS Model and Allied Publications(MAP)publishers of
the'Model Engineer' do a pocketbook on home
foundrywork
and there have been a few articles on the process in
the mag in the past
--- Derek Waters <dgw@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
Hi Paul
Long ago and far away I bought waterglass from a
pharmacy. More recently I
bought a litre bottle of the stuff from the nearest
chandlers - it's used by
the plastic boat crowd for something. I found it in
the same section as the
resins and cleaning products. It's cheap, and that
litre [quart] will
probably see me out - it has done a Micro keel mold
and numerous smaller
pours, and there's about threequarters left.
Preparation? None :) Just paint a moderately liberal
coat on. Assuming your
wood mold is 'lead-tight'. The waterglass will soak
into the wood. Allow it
to dry completely. Be careful to ensure that it hasn't
pooled or accumulated
in any corners. As you know everything must be bone
dry before you do the
pour.
One reasonably liberal application was sufficient to
deal with the keel
pour. The faces of the ply were charred but not to any
great depth. If I had
needed to I could probably have got another keel out
of the same mold.
FWIW, I ended up having the pour done into my mold at
a nearby battery
recyclers for less than the scrap metal cost of the
lead. Not as much fun as
doing it all yourself. I just got lazy :)
cheers
Derek
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.
___________________________________________________________
How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday
snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photoshttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
The wood dowels only char,since they are also coated with water glass
and they are secured to the inside of the mold in their proper
location prior to the pour.Once the lead is cooled enough to release
from the mold,it is quick and easy work to simply drill out the
charred dowel for a nice reamed hole all true and ready.It is a whole
other story free handing a series of holes through solid lead.....
that it is a short lived structure if improperly maintained or
expected to deal with rough handling.Marine growth in those famous
free flooding spaces is but one problem area to consider avoiding.Mind
you,the original design proposal from Elrowe to Bolger was but for a
almost disposable boat requiring the minimum of effort to build and
use.Micro fits this role handsomely but can certainly take sensible
and reasonable up-grades with aplomb thus adding untold years to her
life span and its owners ongoing enjoyment.
I've had several private letters and e-mails from Micro owners
lamenting various grievences over that blasted keel assembly and
reports of rot in hard to service areas in but a couple of years worth
of use.Not exactly the sort of information one likes to hear when
investing so much time/effort or money into ones mini "dreamship",or
so thinks I.
Sincerely,
Peter OCD Lenihan,not at all worried about finding a cure either :-)
> Wood dowels would burn. Steel dowels would float.Bruce,
> The traditional way is to drill the holes, I think.
The wood dowels only char,since they are also coated with water glass
and they are secured to the inside of the mold in their proper
location prior to the pour.Once the lead is cooled enough to release
from the mold,it is quick and easy work to simply drill out the
charred dowel for a nice reamed hole all true and ready.It is a whole
other story free handing a series of holes through solid lead.....
>already,
> The attachment method devised by Bolger is simpler and
> plenty effective, proven strong enough by hundreds of builders
> and doesn't require a tricky hole.It is indeed"simpler" and certainly "effective". Its' shortcomings are
that it is a short lived structure if improperly maintained or
expected to deal with rough handling.Marine growth in those famous
free flooding spaces is but one problem area to consider avoiding.Mind
you,the original design proposal from Elrowe to Bolger was but for a
almost disposable boat requiring the minimum of effort to build and
use.Micro fits this role handsomely but can certainly take sensible
and reasonable up-grades with aplomb thus adding untold years to her
life span and its owners ongoing enjoyment.
I've had several private letters and e-mails from Micro owners
lamenting various grievences over that blasted keel assembly and
reports of rot in hard to service areas in but a couple of years worth
of use.Not exactly the sort of information one likes to hear when
investing so much time/effort or money into ones mini "dreamship",or
so thinks I.
Sincerely,
Peter OCD Lenihan,not at all worried about finding a cure either :-)
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
Good to hear you are closing in on a launch date.Most of the
advice given so far is all workable.Water glass can often be found
at the hardware store. Are you still intentioned to doing your keel
the way I did mine on LESTAT? If so,and I suppose you may well be if
you are going with threaded rod etc...then it may be worth looking
up the Duckworks"articles" illustrating the process I used for such
an install.
WE NEED PICTURES Paul,LOTS OF PICTURES :-D
Best of luck with a straight forward robust solid keel!
Sincerely,
Peter,don't know when to stop,Lenihan, builder and ex-owner of the
mighty Micro LESTAT and now boy-toy to the excellent estuary cruiser
WINDERMERE,whose progress is,I'm happy to report,moving along
smartly despite numerous interruptions by beer toting pirates and
whores.............
> I thought I had bookmarked a site for this but can't find it -anyone know a
> good source for 'waterglass' for coating a keel mold? Any tips foruse would
> also be welcome - prep, how many coats, etc...Hi Paul,
>
> thanks
>
> Paul Lefebvre
Good to hear you are closing in on a launch date.Most of the
advice given so far is all workable.Water glass can often be found
at the hardware store. Are you still intentioned to doing your keel
the way I did mine on LESTAT? If so,and I suppose you may well be if
you are going with threaded rod etc...then it may be worth looking
up the Duckworks"articles" illustrating the process I used for such
an install.
WE NEED PICTURES Paul,LOTS OF PICTURES :-D
Best of luck with a straight forward robust solid keel!
Sincerely,
Peter,don't know when to stop,Lenihan, builder and ex-owner of the
mighty Micro LESTAT and now boy-toy to the excellent estuary cruiser
WINDERMERE,whose progress is,I'm happy to report,moving along
smartly despite numerous interruptions by beer toting pirates and
whores.............
H. Chappelle suggests making a dry run without the lead to make sure
everything works and to work out your procedures. Seems like a good idea...
John T
everything works and to work out your procedures. Seems like a good idea...
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 11:42 AM
Subject: RE: [bolger] need source for sodium silicate
> Hi Bruce,
> thanks for the info! I may look into that backer board stuff. I guess you
> had to level up your mould pretty well to pour with an open side like
that?
> I wonder if you could build a 2-sided mould from the backer board - do you
> think it would bow outward or god forbid, bust open, if well braced on the
> outside with 2x2 every foot or so? I also plan to bolt my keel on with
> threaded rod, so need to build some dowels into the mould to make a hole
for
> the rods...
>
> I had about 500 lbs of lead bricks given to me last fall, and I have an
old
> compressor tank I'm planning to use for melting it; need to pick up some
> pipes and fitting to plumb it, and a few cinderblocks to support it - with
> my new pickup truck that'll be a breeze! I had thought about going with
the
> charcoal-leafblower arrangment (I love your added fiberglass insulation!),
> but I found out a sculptor friend has done some work with bronze and owns
a
> big propane burner for such things, which he has offered for my use. How
> much charcoal did you use? I'll do whatever is cheapest - a tank full of
> propane is now $12 around here...
>
> My hull is completed - decks, hatches, everything are in place, so I'm
> planning on working on it with the hull upright on stands, where it's been
> for awhile. I've been under there already to clean up the curve on a piece
> of luan I'm using as a pattern for the hull bottom, and it's not too bad
> working under there - laid down some plywood to crawl around on, roll the
> casting around, etc. I found a great boat lift last year on the metal pile
> at my local dump - it's the hydraulic lifting mechanism from a beauty
parlor
> chair. I took the hideous gold metalflake vinyl chair off on the spot and
> left it on the pile, but what remains is great - it has a broad base with
a
> big cast-iron weight inside, is about perfect in height range, and has a
> sloping steel mounting pad on top that nearly perfectly matches the hull
> slope on both ends of Micro (I still pad it with a chunk of plywood), and
it
> allows me to control everything with my feet on the lifter bar. And the
best
> part was the price!
>
> Thanks for the details on pouring - if in fact handling the 400lb casting
> is more dangerous than pouring it, I'd be quite relieved... I'll know soon
> enough!
>
> Paul Lefebvre
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.7.5/18 - Release Date: 6/15/2005
>
Back when we had a plant that made sodium silicate, I used to send out free
one gallon samples to fellow boatbuilders who inquired where to get it.
Nowadays it's not so easy cuz' UPS et. al. balks at our sample dept. sending
corrosive chemicals to residential addresses.
one gallon samples to fellow boatbuilders who inquired where to get it.
Nowadays it's not so easy cuz' UPS et. al. balks at our sample dept. sending
corrosive chemicals to residential addresses.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] need source for sodium silicate
| I found this on the web. I've not done business with them:
|http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm
|
| A while back there was the story of an erstwhile keel molder who didn't
| brace the sides well enough. He found himself running for his sole(s).
For
| his second attempt he sunk the mold into a ditch so the earth braced the
| sides.
|
| Roger (I wish I could remember names.)
|derbyrm@...
|http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
| To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
| Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 12:20 PM
| Subject: Re: [bolger] need source for sodium silicate
|
|
| >> had to level up your mould pretty well to pour with an open side like
| >> that?
| >
| > I tried for close to level, but when handling the molten lead with a
ladle
| > after the lead just begins to harden you can 'fine tune' the placement.
| >
| >> I wonder if you could build a 2-sided mould from the backer board - do
| >> you
| >> think it would bow outward or god forbid, bust open, if well braced on
| >> the
| >> outside with 2x2 every foot or so?
| >
| > I think that is a bad idea, the pressures are enormous. I imagine you
| > would need at least a 4x4 at 6 inch spacing with meticulous bracing.
| >
| > [especially when pouring the lead on it side is such a simple out.]
| >
| > Also be aware that molten lead flows like water, so your mold must be
| > perfectly water tight.
| >
| > I think the pros often pack the mold in a pit of sand before pouring,
| > I recall reading this in the Chapelle _Boatbuilding_ book.
| >
| > You can calculate the pressure of an 800 pcf liquid, it goes up quickly
| > with
| > depth too. Ask someone who does concrete formwork, and concrete
| > only weighs 150 pcf. Liquid head pressure must be respected.
| >
| > The liquid head pressure of 1 1/2 inch is only 8% of the liquid head
| > of 1 1/2 foot.
| >
| >>I also plan to bolt my keel on with
| >> threaded rod, so need to build some dowels into the mould to make a
hole
| >> for
| >> the rods...
| >
| > Wood dowels would burn. Steel dowels would float.
| > The traditional way is to drill the holes, I think.
| >
| > The attachment method devised by Bolger is simpler and
| > plenty effective, proven strong enough by hundreds of builders already,
| > and doesn't require a tricky hole.
| >
| >
| >>. How much charcoal did you use? I'll do whatever is cheapest - a tank
| >>full of
| >> propane is now $12 around here...
| >
| > I used about a bag and a half (30 lbs?) I recall. You also can burn
| > firewood.
| >
| > Emptying a whole tank of propane in one shot causes the propane to chill
| > due
| > to the pressure drop, and the propane 'freezes solid' before you can
| > empty it, [in my experience].
| >
| >
| > Bolger rules!!!
| > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax:
| > (978) 282-1349
| > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| > Yahoo! Groups Links
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
| >
|
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I found this on the web. I've not done business with them:
http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm
A while back there was the story of an erstwhile keel molder who didn't
brace the sides well enough. He found himself running for his sole(s). For
his second attempt he sunk the mold into a ditch so the earth braced the
sides.
Roger (I wish I could remember names.)
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
http://www.chemistrystore.com/sodium_silicate.htm
A while back there was the story of an erstwhile keel molder who didn't
brace the sides well enough. He found himself running for his sole(s). For
his second attempt he sunk the mold into a ditch so the earth braced the
sides.
Roger (I wish I could remember names.)
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] need source for sodium silicate
>> had to level up your mould pretty well to pour with an open side like
>> that?
>
> I tried for close to level, but when handling the molten lead with a ladle
> after the lead just begins to harden you can 'fine tune' the placement.
>
>> I wonder if you could build a 2-sided mould from the backer board - do
>> you
>> think it would bow outward or god forbid, bust open, if well braced on
>> the
>> outside with 2x2 every foot or so?
>
> I think that is a bad idea, the pressures are enormous. I imagine you
> would need at least a 4x4 at 6 inch spacing with meticulous bracing.
>
> [especially when pouring the lead on it side is such a simple out.]
>
> Also be aware that molten lead flows like water, so your mold must be
> perfectly water tight.
>
> I think the pros often pack the mold in a pit of sand before pouring,
> I recall reading this in the Chapelle _Boatbuilding_ book.
>
> You can calculate the pressure of an 800 pcf liquid, it goes up quickly
> with
> depth too. Ask someone who does concrete formwork, and concrete
> only weighs 150 pcf. Liquid head pressure must be respected.
>
> The liquid head pressure of 1 1/2 inch is only 8% of the liquid head
> of 1 1/2 foot.
>
>>I also plan to bolt my keel on with
>> threaded rod, so need to build some dowels into the mould to make a hole
>> for
>> the rods...
>
> Wood dowels would burn. Steel dowels would float.
> The traditional way is to drill the holes, I think.
>
> The attachment method devised by Bolger is simpler and
> plenty effective, proven strong enough by hundreds of builders already,
> and doesn't require a tricky hole.
>
>
>>. How much charcoal did you use? I'll do whatever is cheapest - a tank
>>full of
>> propane is now $12 around here...
>
> I used about a bag and a half (30 lbs?) I recall. You also can burn
> firewood.
>
> Emptying a whole tank of propane in one shot causes the propane to chill
> due
> to the pressure drop, and the propane 'freezes solid' before you can
> empty it, [in my experience].
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
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> had to level up your mould pretty well to pour with an open side like that?I tried for close to level, but when handling the molten lead with a ladle
after the lead just begins to harden you can 'fine tune' the placement.
> I wonder if you could build a 2-sided mould from the backer board - do youI think that is a bad idea, the pressures are enormous. I imagine you
> think it would bow outward or god forbid, bust open, if well braced on the
> outside with 2x2 every foot or so?
would need at least a 4x4 at 6 inch spacing with meticulous bracing.
[especially when pouring the lead on it side is such a simple out.]
Also be aware that molten lead flows like water, so your mold must be
perfectly water tight.
I think the pros often pack the mold in a pit of sand before pouring,
I recall reading this in the Chapelle _Boatbuilding_ book.
You can calculate the pressure of an 800 pcf liquid, it goes up quickly with
depth too. Ask someone who does concrete formwork, and concrete
only weighs 150 pcf. Liquid head pressure must be respected.
The liquid head pressure of 1 1/2 inch is only 8% of the liquid head
of 1 1/2 foot.
>I also plan to bolt my keel on withWood dowels would burn. Steel dowels would float.
> threaded rod, so need to build some dowels into the mould to make a hole for
> the rods...
The traditional way is to drill the holes, I think.
The attachment method devised by Bolger is simpler and
plenty effective, proven strong enough by hundreds of builders already,
and doesn't require a tricky hole.
>. How much charcoal did you use? I'll do whatever is cheapest - a tank full ofI used about a bag and a half (30 lbs?) I recall. You also can burn firewood.
> propane is now $12 around here...
Emptying a whole tank of propane in one shot causes the propane to chill due
to the pressure drop, and the propane 'freezes solid' before you can
empty it, [in my experience].
Hi Paul
Long ago and far away I bought waterglass from a pharmacy. More recently I
bought a litre bottle of the stuff from the nearest chandlers - it's used by
the plastic boat crowd for something. I found it in the same section as the
resins and cleaning products. It's cheap, and that litre [quart] will
probably see me out - it has done a Micro keel mold and numerous smaller
pours, and there's about threequarters left.
Preparation? None :) Just paint a moderately liberal coat on. Assuming your
wood mold is 'lead-tight'. The waterglass will soak into the wood. Allow it
to dry completely. Be careful to ensure that it hasn't pooled or accumulated
in any corners. As you know everything must be bone dry before you do the
pour.
One reasonably liberal application was sufficient to deal with the keel
pour. The faces of the ply were charred but not to any great depth. If I had
needed to I could probably have got another keel out of the same mold.
FWIW, I ended up having the pour done into my mold at a nearby battery
recyclers for less than the scrap metal cost of the lead. Not as much fun as
doing it all yourself. I just got lazy :)
cheers
Derek
Long ago and far away I bought waterglass from a pharmacy. More recently I
bought a litre bottle of the stuff from the nearest chandlers - it's used by
the plastic boat crowd for something. I found it in the same section as the
resins and cleaning products. It's cheap, and that litre [quart] will
probably see me out - it has done a Micro keel mold and numerous smaller
pours, and there's about threequarters left.
Preparation? None :) Just paint a moderately liberal coat on. Assuming your
wood mold is 'lead-tight'. The waterglass will soak into the wood. Allow it
to dry completely. Be careful to ensure that it hasn't pooled or accumulated
in any corners. As you know everything must be bone dry before you do the
pour.
One reasonably liberal application was sufficient to deal with the keel
pour. The faces of the ply were charred but not to any great depth. If I had
needed to I could probably have got another keel out of the same mold.
FWIW, I ended up having the pour done into my mold at a nearby battery
recyclers for less than the scrap metal cost of the lead. Not as much fun as
doing it all yourself. I just got lazy :)
cheers
Derek
Hi Bruce,
thanks for the info! I may look into that backer board stuff. I guess you
had to level up your mould pretty well to pour with an open side like that?
I wonder if you could build a 2-sided mould from the backer board - do you
think it would bow outward or god forbid, bust open, if well braced on the
outside with 2x2 every foot or so? I also plan to bolt my keel on with
threaded rod, so need to build some dowels into the mould to make a hole for
the rods...
I had about 500 lbs of lead bricks given to me last fall, and I have an old
compressor tank I'm planning to use for melting it; need to pick up some
pipes and fitting to plumb it, and a few cinderblocks to support it - with
my new pickup truck that'll be a breeze! I had thought about going with the
charcoal-leafblower arrangment (I love your added fiberglass insulation!),
but I found out a sculptor friend has done some work with bronze and owns a
big propane burner for such things, which he has offered for my use. How
much charcoal did you use? I'll do whatever is cheapest - a tank full of
propane is now $12 around here...
My hull is completed - decks, hatches, everything are in place, so I'm
planning on working on it with the hull upright on stands, where it's been
for awhile. I've been under there already to clean up the curve on a piece
of luan I'm using as a pattern for the hull bottom, and it's not too bad
working under there - laid down some plywood to crawl around on, roll the
casting around, etc. I found a great boat lift last year on the metal pile
at my local dump - it's the hydraulic lifting mechanism from a beauty parlor
chair. I took the hideous gold metalflake vinyl chair off on the spot and
left it on the pile, but what remains is great - it has a broad base with a
big cast-iron weight inside, is about perfect in height range, and has a
sloping steel mounting pad on top that nearly perfectly matches the hull
slope on both ends of Micro (I still pad it with a chunk of plywood), and it
allows me to control everything with my feet on the lifter bar. And the best
part was the price!
Thanks for the details on pouring - if in fact handling the 400lb casting
is more dangerous than pouring it, I'd be quite relieved... I'll know soon
enough!
Paul Lefebvre
thanks for the info! I may look into that backer board stuff. I guess you
had to level up your mould pretty well to pour with an open side like that?
I wonder if you could build a 2-sided mould from the backer board - do you
think it would bow outward or god forbid, bust open, if well braced on the
outside with 2x2 every foot or so? I also plan to bolt my keel on with
threaded rod, so need to build some dowels into the mould to make a hole for
the rods...
I had about 500 lbs of lead bricks given to me last fall, and I have an old
compressor tank I'm planning to use for melting it; need to pick up some
pipes and fitting to plumb it, and a few cinderblocks to support it - with
my new pickup truck that'll be a breeze! I had thought about going with the
charcoal-leafblower arrangment (I love your added fiberglass insulation!),
but I found out a sculptor friend has done some work with bronze and owns a
big propane burner for such things, which he has offered for my use. How
much charcoal did you use? I'll do whatever is cheapest - a tank full of
propane is now $12 around here...
My hull is completed - decks, hatches, everything are in place, so I'm
planning on working on it with the hull upright on stands, where it's been
for awhile. I've been under there already to clean up the curve on a piece
of luan I'm using as a pattern for the hull bottom, and it's not too bad
working under there - laid down some plywood to crawl around on, roll the
casting around, etc. I found a great boat lift last year on the metal pile
at my local dump - it's the hydraulic lifting mechanism from a beauty parlor
chair. I took the hideous gold metalflake vinyl chair off on the spot and
left it on the pile, but what remains is great - it has a broad base with a
big cast-iron weight inside, is about perfect in height range, and has a
sloping steel mounting pad on top that nearly perfectly matches the hull
slope on both ends of Micro (I still pad it with a chunk of plywood), and it
allows me to control everything with my feet on the lifter bar. And the best
part was the price!
Thanks for the details on pouring - if in fact handling the 400lb casting
is more dangerous than pouring it, I'd be quite relieved... I'll know soon
enough!
Paul Lefebvre
> anyone know a good source for 'waterglass' for coating a keel mold?I avoided the use of 'waterglass' by building my mold from
> Paul Lefebvre
cement board from Home Depot, sold as 'backer board'
for tilework in shower stalls. It cuts with a Skilsaw and
worked fine. I 'propped up' the 1 1/2" edge forms with a
fillet of Redimix grout. My crucible for melting the lead
was a salvaged 5 gallon steel paint bucket. I didn't pour
the molten lead, but rather I scooped it out of the bucket
with a home made ladle, [a can nailed to a stick]. My heat
source was BBQ charcoal and I heated it up using my
leaf blower.
http://image08.webshots.com/8/0/6/44/121100644qadyRL_fs.jpg
...shows a picture of the setup.
I have read and respect all the safety warnings, but in my
experience at least, melting and pouring the lead was
easy. Leather boots, gloves, eye goggles at a minimum.
Avoid all water/moisture contact with the molten lead because
I hear that it can splatter like the grease in a bacon skillet.
The biggest risk I saw was moving and handling the 400 lb
casting afterwards, you might drop it on yourself and
it could really hurt.
The poured shape of my lead was off by an inch for a good
fit to my keel batten, But I easily cut the lead casting down to
shape using my Skilsaw.
I mounted the casting under my boat by building a 90 degree 'cradle'
for the casting, mounted the cradle to a piece of plywood
which I then was able to roll it around into position on pipe rollers.
I then lowered my hull down to the lead casting, and nailed
on the plywood fin sides. Awkward work, crawling in the
prone position, but easy enough. [I wish I had photos.]
I recommend buying a 'farm jack', really useful for moving the hull
around.
http://shur-lift.jp/image/products/farm-jack.jpg
I thought I had bookmarked a site for this but can't find it - anyone know a
good source for 'waterglass' for coating a keel mold? Any tips for use would
also be welcome - prep, how many coats, etc...
thanks
Paul Lefebvre
good source for 'waterglass' for coating a keel mold? Any tips for use would
also be welcome - prep, how many coats, etc...
thanks
Paul Lefebvre
Bruce,
Thanks. Yes, the yard I got my plywood from only had 1/2 inch ply in
10 foot long sheets. I had to do a little thinking to get the sides
to fit on two sheets by moving the fore-most sheet "up" 3/4 of an
inch. But I was able to get away w/ one butt-strap on the sides, and
I avoided a buttstrap for the deck.
I have a couple sources for scrap lead (between $.15 and .20/lb.), but
I haven't bought it yet. I made a mold before I finished sheathing
the keel, so I guess I plan to melt and pour my own? I've also mulled
over the possibilities of using large lead bricks and epoxy too.
Right now I'm learning towards a pour. I'm more concerned with how
I'll insert the final blob of lead. I recall seeing someone who used
a jack and just lifted it into the slot. I'll probably try that.
I had to climb up on the roof of my house to get that picture. I
couldn't fit the whole boat into the picture.
Bill
Thanks. Yes, the yard I got my plywood from only had 1/2 inch ply in
10 foot long sheets. I had to do a little thinking to get the sides
to fit on two sheets by moving the fore-most sheet "up" 3/4 of an
inch. But I was able to get away w/ one butt-strap on the sides, and
I avoided a buttstrap for the deck.
I have a couple sources for scrap lead (between $.15 and .20/lb.), but
I haven't bought it yet. I made a mold before I finished sheathing
the keel, so I guess I plan to melt and pour my own? I've also mulled
over the possibilities of using large lead bricks and epoxy too.
Right now I'm learning towards a pour. I'm more concerned with how
I'll insert the final blob of lead. I recall seeing someone who used
a jack and just lifted it into the slot. I'll probably try that.
I had to climb up on the roof of my house to get that picture. I
couldn't fit the whole boat into the picture.
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> > on my LM
>
> Pretty cool pictures!
>
> It looks like you used plywood longer than 8 feet on the sides?
>
> What plans do you have for the lead ballast?
>
> Picture 13 is my favorite, it really gives a feeling...that is a
> really big boat!
> on my LMPretty cool pictures!
It looks like you used plywood longer than 8 feet on the sides?
What plans do you have for the lead ballast?
Picture 13 is my favorite, it really gives a feeling...that is a
really big boat!
Hi all,
It's funny how much a part of this group I feel, yet how rarely I post. I
generally find that someone
else provides the answers by the time I get to read the question. Yet
after lurking for almost two
years, I wanted to update everyone on my Long Micro construction. Well
over a year ago I posted a link to my website detailing the construction of
my long micro. Many things have changed, but I have been diligently toiling
on my LM since then. I just don't have time to put together a proper
website so I have posted some of my construction pictures to my
webspace. Be forewarned, the website is not pretty. There are merely
links to the pictures, but no thumbnails and no text. You'll be able to
figure out the chronological order of the pictures.
In about a week or two I will update the pictures (those currently posted
are at least one year old).
If anyone has questions about the construction, please feel free to ask.
And if anyone would like
to see specific pictures of details, I can post those as well. The current
pictures are designed to give
a general overview of the project. Since there's no text to accompany the
pictures, I've put a little
description here:
I started construction in mid-September, 2003. I have been keeping very
careful track of the time I spend working on my boat. At this point I have
almost 500 hours in "real" labor invested in the boat (this time does not
include sitting in the moaning chair, naps, staring at the boat, pretending
to sail the boat while it's in my garage, fighting giant imaginary octopi
with smoking hot epoxy, or or running errands). I opted for marine ply
throughout, coated with System Three epoxy. The hull exterior (and both
flooding wells) are sheathed in 6 oz. fiberglass cloth. My boat differs
slightly from Bolger's plans. I opted for 1/2 inch side panels (Bolger says
this is permissable). I have also constructed a self-bailing cockpit, with
cockpit seats (with hinged seat-lids and storage underneath. I'm currently
finishing these). I also went with a 1/2 inch deck (i.e., cabin cover),
instead of 3/8 inch. Finally, I welded my own rudder blade and post from
some steel I had in my garage. I coated the whole assembly with
fiberglass. *solid* Besides that I plan to rig the boat to plan.
The most useful tidbits I used during construction so far have been: 1).
using a strong-back during my initial construction. 2) sheathing and
painting the hull-sides one-at-a-time, with the boat resting on
its side. When one side was done, I flipped the boat onto its other
side. 3) installing many of the interior bits (the bunk frames, and the
framing for the self-bailing cockpit) with the boat resting on its side. I
recall that this very helpful hint was suggested by Nels or Bruce Hallman
some time ago.
The worst move I made was to attach the sides to the frames with the boat
in an upright position (as opposed to upside down, as the plans
suggest). I had to flip the boat in order to attach the bottom, and that
entailed making braces for the interior, before I could flip it. I should
have built it upside-down from day one.
I will keep the pictures posted for about a week, so that everyone can take
a peek. Then I'll update the pictures and let everyone know. I hope you
enjoy.
Bill
http://personal.bgsu.edu/~kingw/Boat/
It's funny how much a part of this group I feel, yet how rarely I post. I
generally find that someone
else provides the answers by the time I get to read the question. Yet
after lurking for almost two
years, I wanted to update everyone on my Long Micro construction. Well
over a year ago I posted a link to my website detailing the construction of
my long micro. Many things have changed, but I have been diligently toiling
on my LM since then. I just don't have time to put together a proper
website so I have posted some of my construction pictures to my
webspace. Be forewarned, the website is not pretty. There are merely
links to the pictures, but no thumbnails and no text. You'll be able to
figure out the chronological order of the pictures.
In about a week or two I will update the pictures (those currently posted
are at least one year old).
If anyone has questions about the construction, please feel free to ask.
And if anyone would like
to see specific pictures of details, I can post those as well. The current
pictures are designed to give
a general overview of the project. Since there's no text to accompany the
pictures, I've put a little
description here:
I started construction in mid-September, 2003. I have been keeping very
careful track of the time I spend working on my boat. At this point I have
almost 500 hours in "real" labor invested in the boat (this time does not
include sitting in the moaning chair, naps, staring at the boat, pretending
to sail the boat while it's in my garage, fighting giant imaginary octopi
with smoking hot epoxy, or or running errands). I opted for marine ply
throughout, coated with System Three epoxy. The hull exterior (and both
flooding wells) are sheathed in 6 oz. fiberglass cloth. My boat differs
slightly from Bolger's plans. I opted for 1/2 inch side panels (Bolger says
this is permissable). I have also constructed a self-bailing cockpit, with
cockpit seats (with hinged seat-lids and storage underneath. I'm currently
finishing these). I also went with a 1/2 inch deck (i.e., cabin cover),
instead of 3/8 inch. Finally, I welded my own rudder blade and post from
some steel I had in my garage. I coated the whole assembly with
fiberglass. *solid* Besides that I plan to rig the boat to plan.
The most useful tidbits I used during construction so far have been: 1).
using a strong-back during my initial construction. 2) sheathing and
painting the hull-sides one-at-a-time, with the boat resting on
its side. When one side was done, I flipped the boat onto its other
side. 3) installing many of the interior bits (the bunk frames, and the
framing for the self-bailing cockpit) with the boat resting on its side. I
recall that this very helpful hint was suggested by Nels or Bruce Hallman
some time ago.
The worst move I made was to attach the sides to the frames with the boat
in an upright position (as opposed to upside down, as the plans
suggest). I had to flip the boat in order to attach the bottom, and that
entailed making braces for the interior, before I could flip it. I should
have built it upside-down from day one.
I will keep the pictures posted for about a week, so that everyone can take
a peek. Then I'll update the pictures and let everyone know. I hope you
enjoy.
Bill
http://personal.bgsu.edu/~kingw/Boat/