Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines

Andy and all -

This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system powered
by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work. "That's
design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other hydralic
shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that small of
a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only new what
I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea didn't make
sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking of
starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no info
available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's how my
local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!

I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that there
basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at Northern.
I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the right parts
off the shelf.

It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not to
mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs that call
for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there was
useable info to piece together hydo drive.

Anyone car to help?

Would a mail list make sense?

Regards
Jon Cassino

SNIP-----------------------------------------
From: ANDREW AIREY
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines


How about a pair of hydraulic pump motors from,say,old
forktrucks.A hydraulic pump will work as a motor but
you may have to do a couple of mods to relieve
pressure on the bearing seals
Cheers
Andy Airey
Pulling out the Northern Tool Catalog and trying to remember the past.
Should have something down by tomorrow PM.

HJ

James Greene wrote:

>On Jul 31, 2005, at 05:29, Cooper & Price wrote:
>
>
>
>>Harry -
>>
>>I would very much appreciate you sharing your expertise either on or
>>off list.
>>
>>
>
>I would like to learn more from your experience too!
>
>James Greene
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Jul 31, 2005, at 05:29, Cooper & Price wrote:

> Harry -
>
> I would very much appreciate you sharing your expertise either on or
> off list.

I would like to learn more from your experience too!

James Greene
Sounds like a good subject to do a large Word file on and scetches too.

Jon
I vote for on-list.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:
> Harry -

>
> I would very much appreciate you sharing your expertise either on
or off list.
>
> Jon Cassino
>
> Cooper & Price wrote:
>
> I a little slow jumping in on this, I have been on vacation .
>
> I have built up three different hydraulic systems on fish boats,
all
> using parts ordered through the mail from Northern Tool used to
be
> Hydraulics. If
> this is still of interest to the list I could go into more
detail
> otherwise I could expand off line.
Harry -

I would very much appreciate you sharing your expertise either on or off list.

Jon Cassino

cooperprice@...

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry James
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines


Cooper & Price wrote:

I a little slow jumping in on this, I have been on vacation .

I have built up three different hydraulic systems on fish boats, all
using parts ordered through the mail from Northern Tool used to be
Hydraulics. One of them was powered by a Briggs the other came off of
the engines. I figured it out on my own, it wasn't that difficult. If
this is still of interest to the list I could go into more detail
otherwise I could expand off line.

HJ

>Andy and all -
>
>This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system powered
>by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
>Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work. "That's
>design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other hydralic
>shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that small of
>a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only new what
>I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea didn't make
>sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking of
>starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no info
>available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's how my
>local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
>
>I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that there
>basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at Northern.
>I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the right parts
>off the shelf.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cooper & Price wrote:

I a little slow jumping in on this, I have been on vacation .

I have built up three different hydraulic systems on fish boats, all
using parts ordered through the mail from Northern Tool used to be
Hydraulics. One of them was powered by a Briggs the other came off of
the engines. I figured it out on my own, it wasn't that difficult. If
this is still of interest to the list I could go into more detail
otherwise I could expand off line.

HJ

>Andy and all -
>
>This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system powered
>by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
>Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work. "That's
>design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other hydralic
>shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that small of
>a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only new what
>I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea didn't make
>sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking of
>starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no info
>available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's how my
>local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
>
>I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that there
>basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at Northern.
>I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the right parts
>off the shelf.
>
>It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not to
>mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs that call
>for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there was
>useable info to piece together hydo drive.
>
>Anyone car to help?
>
>Would a mail list make sense?
>
>Regards
>Jon Cassino
>
>
>
For a heavy duty hydrostatic drive you might look at old combines.
The older John Deere combines from about 1972 on all have
hydrostatic drives. The combines from the 70's and 80's are all
being parted out and are in very low demand which means
inexpensive. I have never looked into the details but they were
equipped with 200+ hp diesels that moved 20,000 lb plus machines up
and down the hills so should be tough enough for a boat.

Amos

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Walsh" <mikewinva@h...> wrote:
>
> > One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small
machines
> like
> > lawn tractors and Bobcats.
> >
> > Howard
> >
>
> One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines
like
> lawn tractors and Bobcats.
>
> Howard
>

Going in this direction, you might want to buy a used Cub Cadet
diesel lawn tractor. It uses a diesel engine (no bilge fumes), has a
hydro pump and a hydro motor and is rebuildable. If I remember
correctly it is all shaft driven (no belts to break). The cheaper
lawn tractors are not servicable and are throw away units when they
fail.

If you go the belt route, you might want to look at a belt system for
a motor cycle (H.D., Suzuki and Buell use them). They use a cogged
belt instead of a chain and sprocket for drive. These belt drives
are known for longevity and low service requirements. You could also
look at a car timing belt system. The strongest one of those I know
if is from a mid '90s GM 3.4l DOHC v-6.
Re: [bolger] Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled EnginesNoise of an air cooled engine doesn't have to be a problem, look at (and listen to) the small Honda generators.

For a displacement hull boat, part throttle operation is more likely to be used most of the time so direct shaft to prop may often NOT be the best. Direct shaft to prop will of course be the most efficient at SOME particular load but a well designed engine/electric or engine/hydralic drive would be more efficient over a wider operating range. That is why trains and most large ocean vessels are now engine/electric or engine/hydralic drive.

I keep thinking that for a very small hydralic drive, you might be able to start with a power steering pump.

Ron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Lasdauskas <cml@t...> wrote:
and that they were an off-shoot of the Mennonites who,
> amongst other things, "are concerned with 'plainness'. The concept
of
> plainness dictates the distinctive dress of the Mennonite. 'Plain'
to a
> Mennonite is the opposite of 'showy' or 'ostentatious', and a
virtue. It
> is based on the belief that a person's true worth does not lie in
their
> clothes or appearance." Which sounds a lot like Bolger's boat design
> philosophy :)
>
> Quite appealing really,
>
> Chris

My late wife was of Mennonite descent and they had close ties with the
Amish. There are different "levels" in the belief systems depending on
background and history.

My father-in-law and two of his brothers drove from Canada to Mexico
to visit some distant relatives. They have a large community down
there which is German and Spanish speaking with little English.

When going to church the people who arrived by horse and buggy were
allowed to park inside the church grounds. The ones arriving in cars
had to park outside the grounds. My dad in law asked one of his
distanct cousins, "Don't you think God can see over the fence?" and
the question was not very well received. He said most of them farmed
with all the latest machinery and a few with only traditional horse
drawn equipment. The community as a whole was far wealthier than the
Spanish communities around the area.

Many come up from Mexico as migrant workers in Southern Ontario for
the summer and have dual citizenship. They also had an import business
going at one time with Amish built oak furniture until it was
discovered they were stuffing some of the furniture with Mexican grown
hash.

These folks were from the less tradional background. But they all have
one thing in common. Very industrious and innovative:-)

I expect Mr. Bolger would appreciate those kinds of attributes.

Nels
Martyn -

I've gleaned that hydraulic drive is fairly common in Europe and that Volvo makes or made one for years (although nothing shows up on their current web page european or U.S.).

There is a 11hp electric start diesel selling for $400 which is what got me all excited in the first place.

I saw the Vetus just yesterday - supposedly the cost for the smallest (<33 hp) is $1800 according to a similar discussion that Google pointed me to.

I'm betting if the Vetus is $1800 one can be pieced together for much less.

I always have to remind my self that 99% of us boaters are seeping in saltwater - I'm on the Great Lakes.

I looked up a date the other day and apparently had forgotten to set it back - sorry about that. And the links worked fine - thanks!


Jon Cassino

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.

How small an engine? There are units readily available (at least in
Europe) from Vetus for popular sized (pleasure) marine engines. See this
link:

http://www.vetus.com/hyd_propulsion/hyd_propulsion.cfm

I suspect really small engines might not cope and a belt and shaft
system would be more suitable for low cost ex-lawn tractor adaptation
both in terms of power losses and balancing the costs of the
transmission and the engine. I have seen B & S engines used for a low
cost pot hauling system and they were suffering from the salty
environment after a few months.

If you want to build up something non standard marine hydraulic, try the
manufacturer who supplies pot and net hauling gear for smaller fishing
boats in your part of the world. Here they use:

http://www.spencercarter.com/home.htm

Let me know if the links get lost.

It looks like the Cooper and Price clock needs setting as the posting
was dated September 2005. This muddles my mail reader at least.

My posting may be a bit outdated by now - I had some trouble starting to
post to this group but if you are reading this it's working now.
--

Martyn Aldis, e-mailmartyn.aldis@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
robert pyfrom wrote:

> I realize this a Bolger discussion group, but there are issues concerning
> the Amish that really need to clarified. I live in the heart of Lanc. Co.
....

Interesting. I checked out the Wikipedia entry on the amish, some
relevant extracts:

"The avoidance of items such as automobiles and electricity is largely
misunderstood. The Amish do not view all technology as evil. ...

"Electricity, for instance, is viewed as a connection to the "English"
or "Yankees" (the outside world). The use of electricity also could lead
to the use of household appliances that would complicate the Amish
tradition of a simple life. However, in certain Amish groups electricity
can be used in very specific situations. In some groups, for example, it
has to be produced without access to outside power lines. Twelve-volt
batteries are acceptable to these groups. Electric generators can only
be used for welding, recharging batteries, and powering milk stirrers.
The reasoning behind the twelve-volt system is that it limits what an
individual can do with the electricity and acts as a preventive measure
against potential abuses. Most twelve-volt power sources can't generate
enough current to power what is viewed as worldly, such as modern
appliances such as televisions, light bulbs, and hair dryers.

...

"... The Amish are noted for the quality of their quilts and for their
farming efficiency. Amish have enthusiastically adopted genetically
engineered crops for their efficiency."

That last one really surprised me! I would have trouble thinking of
anything more 'wordly' than genetic engineering, and apparently they
don't approve of genetic testing of people before marriage, despite the
hazards they face from a limited gene pool.

Which is all off the topic of bats .. except they originally came to the
US in boats :) and that they were an off-shoot of the Mennonites who,
amongst other things, "are concerned with 'plainness'. The concept of
plainness dictates the distinctive dress of the Mennonite. 'Plain' to a
Mennonite is the opposite of 'showy' or 'ostentatious', and a virtue. It
is based on the belief that a person's true worth does not lie in their
clothes or appearance." Which sounds a lot like Bolger's boat design
philosophy :)

Quite appealing really,

Chris
[bolger] Re: Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines
The Gates toothed belts work very well for the 1 to 15HP range. Very efficient and can handle the tolerances of wood construction.

Ron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
In message <004901c5b729$cf531d40$41c60b18@hal2005xp>, Cooper & Price
<cooperprice@...> writes
>Andy and all -
>
>This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system powered
>by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
>Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work.

How small an engine? There are units readily available (at least in
Europe) from Vetus for popular sized (pleasure) marine engines. See this
link:

http://www.vetus.com/hyd_propulsion/hyd_propulsion.cfm

I suspect really small engines might not cope and a belt and shaft
system would be more suitable for low cost ex-lawn tractor adaptation
both in terms of power losses and balancing the costs of the
transmission and the engine. I have seen B & S engines used for a low
cost pot hauling system and they were suffering from the salty
environment after a few months.

If you want to build up something non standard marine hydraulic, try the
manufacturer who supplies pot and net hauling gear for smaller fishing
boats in your part of the world. Here they use:

http://www.spencercarter.com/home.htm

Let me know if the links get lost.

It looks like the Cooper and Price clock needs setting as the posting
was dated September 2005. This muddles my mail reader at least.

My posting may be a bit outdated by now - I had some trouble starting to
post to this group but if you are reading this it's working now.
--

Martyn Aldis, e-mailmartyn.aldis@...
==============================================================================
You can also find an article in WoodenBoat:

/Reelfoot Lake Stumpjumper:/construction commentary, history, photos, 82:19

Paul Esterle - Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7/Matilda 20
North East MD
www.captnpauley.com
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
John, with all due respect, if you're willing to wait a while (read undetermined future because of 3 boat projects) I'll take you up on that. I'm in Nashville TN, and to the west of us and north of Memphis is Reelfoot lake where an indiginous type of boat exists called a "stump jumper" ( because of all the cypress), which for the most part ( to my knowledge) has a long history of being knocked together by common working folks. The unique thing about these dory/pirogue type craft is the way the whole shaft/prop combo can lift to clear shallow obstructions (stumps!) while utilising a hard mounted air-cooled engine. Mostly common galvanized plumbing pipe, fittings and packing with drilled out screw caps and of course a universal joint. B&S type engines on pine beds. Don't know how many incorporate Capt'n Woody's F&R ideas, as each stump jumper is a reflection of its creator, but overall a cheap, simple $200 way to power boats in shallow, tight circumstances. For a larger cruising vessel, read George Bueler's (sp?) "Backyard Boatbuilding" for more about many common galvanized fittings including shaft seals, etc. as well as heat/venting ideas.
Respectfully, David


From: John Bell
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:56 AM

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reviews I recollect reading in various sailing mags of the flashy,
big-bridgedeck, gin-palace, production line type of sailing
catamarans often praise how how well they do under power. The power
being by way of a remote engine (usually diesel) driving
independently operable hydraulic drives in each hull, also sometimes
side thrusters (perhaps also deck winches). In the cats this confers
the advantages of: principally great manouverability and control;
space and cost savings related to having only one engine; and allows
design flexibility.


My recollection is that these are made by some well known marine
power brands. The systems are available out of the box. I'm not sure
just how low in power they come. Some googling around
catamarans/power etc should provide answers. If these units are
either a bit too powerful or pricey then perhaps their solutions
could be adapted when using smaller substituted components.



--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:
> Howard - Following is why I see Hydro as a good propulsion source
>
> Hydraulic drives free you up to place the engine anywhere on your
boat - not just in line with the shaft. Basically all it is is an
automatic transmission connected to the pump by hoses.
>
]
I realize this a Bolger discussion group, but there are issues concerning
the Amish that really need to clarified. I live in the heart of Lanc. Co.
PA. where 3 of my closest neighbors are "Old Order Amish", the strictest
sect. Power equipment is allowed so long as you are not connected to utility
lines. Most have large electric start Deutz diesel engines to run either air
compressors or hydraulic pumps. I have seen everything from ceiling fans to
sewing machines operated by air or hydraulics. But you must use a push
mower. Go figure. "Real Amish" have no Church building, too worldly. But
their shops are mechanical wonders for efficiency. Most of my Amish friends
are either lawn furniture or storage shed builders.
Comboat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:56 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines


> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Swinney <blswinney7@e...> wrote:
> > Any use of power equipment is completely forbidden by the Amish
> > religion. Anyone using power tools of any type are "shunned" by the
> > church community. If they have hydraulic or air tools, they are not
> > really Amish.
> >
> > Bryan Swinney
>
> I guess that would make them Amish Blush perhaps..........:-)
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
At 10:27 PM 7/26/05, you wrote:
>How about the cost and complication of certifying an air-cooled (a la
>B&S) engine for marine use? Ignition protected components, flame
>arrestor, approved fuel lines, etc.????

If the engine is not enclosed, this is not required.


Regards,
RonB
And also the noise. Yesterday afternoon I spent an hour or so in
close proximity to a nice little 5 hp aircooled Honda petrol engine
that sits atop my self-propelled mower. It's may times noisier than
my Mercury 15 hp 2-stroke outboard, which sits on the transom (of my
boat, not the lawnmower), not right next to me, as shown in the
Bonefish cartoon.

I can't remember what my outboard cost, but if I'd used an inboard
I'd have had to buy the engine, a shaft, propellor, stern bearing,
thrust bearing, f-n-r gears, rudder, rudder bearing, steering
controls, fuel tank and exhaust system. It's hard to imagine all
this would be cheaper than my outboard. I'd have had to learn
several new skills and spend ages installing everything, with
brackets, beds, fasteners etc., some of which would have had to be
fabricated.

Howard

-- --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell"
<smallboatdesigner@m...> wrote:
> Another thing to consider using the B&S motors is what to do with
the heat.
Many have hit on the problems of loss in converting from one energy form
to another.

Since forward thrust is the main application of engine power, the engine
MUST be connected as directly as possible to the propeller shaft. Even
the belt used in Bonefish costs some gasoline and power to the prop.
Going from gasoline to the crankshaft to the generator/hydraulic pump to
the electric/hydraulic motor to the propeller shaft for primary power
will NEVER be a good solution for 99.9% of boats.

Since reverse is used much less, running an electric motor for reverse
is likely the cheapest, and easiest way for most of us to get it done.
I've not read anything in this thread that would convince me there is a
better compromise than a decent trolling motor. For me the ONLY
objection is cosmetics, and the burden of making a mounting position
decision.

Don Schultz

These are written that you may know Jesus is the Christ... Gospel of
John
"If you don't know where you're going, you'll end up somewhere else."
Yogi Berra
Oh, and don't forget the cutless bearing too.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines was Hydralic Drive


| Another thing to consider using the B&S motors is what to do with the
heat.
| In Bolger's Duetz diesel designs (actually oil-cooled with forced air
| radiators) he gives quite a bit of thought to getting cool air to the
engine
| and the waste heat out of the boat. Given that most B&S motors don't
really
| have ready made connections to ducts e.g. cool air in one side, hot air
out
| the other, this seems problematic.
|
| I'll also bet anyone $20 that they can't come up with a satisfactory and
| safe 13-15 HP inboard with full F-N-R capabilities including stuffing box,
| shaft, prop and rudder that will cost less than a new 15 HP Mercury
4-stroke
| outboard (About $2300 from BPS last time I checked).
|
|
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Paul W. Esterle" <pesterle@...>
| To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
| Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:43 AM
| Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines was Hydralic Drive
|
|
| | Jon,
| |
| | If talking about gasoline - check the following:
| |
| |http://www.uscg.mil/d8/mso/louisville/WebStuff/comdtpubp16761_3b.pdf
| |
| | No compliance equals no insurance, a big problem in today's legal
| | environment.
| |
| |
| | Paul Esterle - Freelance Boating Writer
| | Columbia 10.7/Matilda 20
| | North East MD
| | www.captnpauley.com
| | pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| | Bolger rules!!!
| | - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| | - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| | - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| | - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
Fax:
| (978) 282-1349
| | - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| | - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| | Yahoo! Groups Links
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|
Another thing to consider using the B&S motors is what to do with the heat.
In Bolger's Duetz diesel designs (actually oil-cooled with forced air
radiators) he gives quite a bit of thought to getting cool air to the engine
and the waste heat out of the boat. Given that most B&S motors don't really
have ready made connections to ducts e.g. cool air in one side, hot air out
the other, this seems problematic.

I'll also bet anyone $20 that they can't come up with a satisfactory and
safe 13-15 HP inboard with full F-N-R capabilities including stuffing box,
shaft, prop and rudder that will cost less than a new 15 HP Mercury 4-stroke
outboard (About $2300 from BPS last time I checked).


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul W. Esterle" <pesterle@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines was Hydralic Drive


| Jon,
|
| If talking about gasoline - check the following:
|
|http://www.uscg.mil/d8/mso/louisville/WebStuff/comdtpubp16761_3b.pdf
|
| No compliance equals no insurance, a big problem in today's legal
| environment.
|
|
| Paul Esterle - Freelance Boating Writer
| Columbia 10.7/Matilda 20
| North East MD
| www.captnpauley.com
| pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
|
|
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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I was foreman on a large contruction project for 5 years. I always
insisted on "getting in the trenches" while the foundations were being
built -- I considered it the most important part of a building. I had
the opportunity to observe a number of excavation contractors and a
variety of equipment. The small loaders that had hydraulic drive were
great when they were running. They had smooth, precision power. They
had a nasty tendency to stop running, though, typically because of a
busted line or seal. Extracting a uni-loader (sp?) from a foot of mud
at the bottom of a 2 sided narrow valley and replacing a proprietary
seal inside a motor on the underside of the machine apparently was an
expensive operation. Generic parts may avoid expensive replacement
parts, though. fwiw.

Howard Stephenson wrote:

> Another place to look might be the hydraulic pumps and motors used to
> power lobster-pot haulers. They should be resistant to salt water.
>
> But it seems to me you are trying to get around the complication of
> connecting a motor to a drive shaft mechanically by designing and
> building a more complicated arrangement. The hydraulic pump will need
> to be connected to the engine and the motor to the drive shaft. And I
> uderstand these hydraulic arrangements absorb quite a lot of power.
>
> One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines like
> lawn tractors and Bobcats.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Dillahunty <bdillahu@p...> wrote:
>
> > > This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system
> powered
> > > by a smaller engine ala George Buehler.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
The text books "Industrial Fluid Power", Vol. 1 and 2 give a good, easy
to understand intro. I *think* I got them through Northern Tools about
10 years ago. I haven't (yet) gotten around to building any hydraulic
systems so can't offer specific advice. It seems to be a fairly simple
field once you understand the basics. It's a matter of knowing how to
do basic design in order to choose compatible off the shelf parts.

Bruce Dillahunty wrote:

> Cooper & Price wrote:
> > Andy and all -
> >
> > This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system
> powered
> > by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
> > Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work.
> "That's
> > design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other
> hydralic
> > shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that
> small of
> > a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only
> new what
> > I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea didn't
> make
> > sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking of
> > starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no info
> > available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's
> how my
> > local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
> >
> > I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that
> there
> > basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at
> Northern.
> > I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the
> right parts
> > off the shelf.
> >
> > It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not to
> > mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs
> that call
> > for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there was
> > useable info to piece together hydo drive.
> >
> > Anyone car to help?
> >
> > Would a mail list make sense?
> >
>
> That might be a good idea... I've made a little way down this same road,
> with the same issues as you... it seems to definitely have some
> possibilities.
>
> There is at least one outfit in Europe that sells them, I think.
>
> You might check out:
>
>http://www.vonwentzel.net/Prout/01.Propulsion/04.Hydraulics-Design/
>
> If you start a list, let me know... I would be interested, but don't
> know how much I could add.
>
> Bruce
>
> > Regards
> > Jon Cassino
> >
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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Jon,

If talking about gasoline - check the following:

http://www.uscg.mil/d8/mso/louisville/WebStuff/comdtpubp16761_3b.pdf

No compliance equals no insurance, a big problem in today's legal
environment.


Paul Esterle - Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7/Matilda 20
North East MD
www.captnpauley.com
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
Jason -

The belt alternative to me is a second choice. I'll probably send the chap $10.95 just out of curiosity. Does he mention anything about reverse? I've dropped Wooden Boat and Boat Builder years ago and have only just recently started a MAIB subscription. Thanks!

Your outboard leg idea is fine, basically a hydraulic saildrive but what is the advantage to connecting it to a outboard leg rather a prop shaft?

Jon Cassino

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: fishtronics
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 9:11 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines


There is a guy who sells a "Marine COnversion Manual" of belt-drive
designs for for air-cooled propulsion in the back of every
Boatbuilder mag proclaiming "Cheap Power Today": Capt. Woodie Owen PO
Box 32172 Charleston, SC 29417, only $10.95. I have been tempted many
times to send him the dough, but I am afraid it will not be as good
as my imagination...

Regarding hyraulic propulsion, I am not an hydraulic engineer, but I
have messed with it on tractors and fork lifts. The problem with the
Northern stuff is it is sized mainly to drive piston cylinders, not
motors. There is big loss in heat to drive fluid, but once there it
is pretty efficient. Big motors are expensive, I have priced them and
they are K$. I think the best approach for small HP requirements is
to couple a small high RPM motor (maybe a stackable hydraulic
gerotor) to an outboard leg, like in the Glen-L Electric conversion
plan:

go tohttp://www.glen-l.com/and search for "electric #405"

Electric Drive
#405 an electric drive system you can make yourself

Jason






--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:
> Andy and all -
>
> This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system
powered
> by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys
at
> Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would
work. "That's
> design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other
hydralic
> shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that
small of
> a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only
new what
> I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea
didn't make
> sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking
of
> starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no
info
> available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's
how my
> local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
>
> I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that
there
> basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at
Northern.
> I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the
right parts
> off the shelf.
>
> It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not
to
> mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs
that call
> for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there
was
> useable info to piece together hydo drive.
>
> Anyone car to help?
>
> Would a mail list make sense?
>
> Regards
> Jon Cassino
>
> SNIP-----------------------------------------
> From: ANDREW AIREY
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines
>
>
> How about a pair of hydraulic pump motors from,say,old
> forktrucks.A hydraulic pump will work as a motor but
> you may have to do a couple of mods to relieve
> pressure on the bearing seals
> Cheers
> Andy Airey





Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yes! I have thought about this but have not researched beyon a few googles.


Jon Cassino

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Stephenson
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:24 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines


Another possibility might be diesel-electric, but you still have the
problems of designing it, finding the components at a reasonable
price, and building it; one or maybe two golf-cart motors coupled
together and to the prop shaft, powered by a heavy-duty alternator out
of a truck or something, coupled to the aircooled motor?

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@n...> wrote:
> Are we talking hydrostatic drives here?
>
> Bryant
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:
> > Howard - Following is why I see Hydro as a good propulsion source






Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Paul -

I'm thinking diesel here so there isn't any marinizing needed other than possibly cooling the exhaust although that would be more of a person preference than a requirement.

Marinizing would be an issue if a gasoline engine was being used in an enclosed hull design - but in a small open boat I'd throw caution to the wind literally or in other words make sure the motor was mounted where it was ventilated and where fumes could not collect.


Jon Cassino

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul W. Esterle
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines was Hydralic Drive


How about the cost and complication of certifying an air-cooled (a la
B&S) engine for marine use? Ignition protected components, flame
arrestor, approved fuel lines, etc.????

Paul Esterle - Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7/Matilda 20
North East MD
www.captnpauley.com
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/




Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
> Bolger pointed out that every time you change the type
> of energy you lose effiency.

This is true in principle.
But by converting from one form to another you can operate each
component at their best efficiency.

Combustion engines are not same efficient at every speed.
So, you let the engine run at their most efficient speed, convert it
to electricity, and regulate the electricity for lower or faster
speeds. Much less losses with electricity. Then you run an electric
motor, where the efficiency is less dependent on the speed.

While at "most efficient speed" the "engine only" solution will be
more efficient, the diesel(or gas)/electric drive is more efficient
once you leave that sweet spot of the combustion engine' favourite speed.

Similarly probably with an combustion/hydraulic drive.

Stefan
Yes, I ask myself "where do they get the compressed air/hydraulic fluid
under pressure?" I doubt it's from a horse walking around in circles
which is about as high tech as they allow. Wind or water mill perhaps?

Chris

Bryan Swinney wrote:

> Any use of power equipment is completely forbidden by the Amish
> religion. Anyone using power tools of any type are "shunned" by the
> church community. If they have hydraulic or air tools, they are not
> really Amish.
>
> Bryan Swinney
There's a similar or perhaps greater advantage with a generator-motor
setup.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@y...> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> The nice thing about hydraulics is that you can use
> them to power other things as well if that takes your
> fancy.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Swinney <blswinney7@e...> wrote:
> Any use of power equipment is completely forbidden by the Amish
> religion. Anyone using power tools of any type are "shunned" by the
> church community. If they have hydraulic or air tools, they are not
> really Amish.
>
> Bryan Swinney

I guess that would make them Amish Blush perhaps..........:-)

Peter Lenihan
Hi all

The nice thing about hydraulics is that you can use
them to power other things as well if that takes your
fancy.I'll get in touch with my mate and ask him about
the necessary mods to convert a pump to a motor.The
thing to do would be to build a test bed for the rig
and make sure that everything works before installing
it in a boat
Cheers
Andy
--- Cooper & Price <cooperprice@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
Andy and all -

This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a
hydro system powered
by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have
talked to the guys at
Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces
would work. "That's
design work and we don't do design work". I've talked
to two other hydralic
shops via phone and they either don't understand or
don't need that small of
a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks
perfect if I only new what
I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said
the idea didn't make
sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've
been thinking of
starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is
really no info
available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks.
Well - that's how my
local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!

I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer.
It seem that there
basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off
the shelf at Northern.
I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help
me pull the right parts
off the shelf.

It would really make it so easy to build some inboard
designs (not to
mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of
dozen designs that call
for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be
built if there was
useable info to piece together hydo drive.

Anyone car to help?

Would a mail list make sense?

Regards
Jon Cassino

SNIP-----------------------------------------
From: ANDREW AIREY
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines


How about a pair of hydraulic pump motors from,say,old
forktrucks.A hydraulic pump will work as a motor but
you may have to do a couple of mods to relieve
pressure on the bearing seals
Cheers
Andy Airey




Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging
dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:
bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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outdoors Boating
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safety
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---------------------------------






___________________________________________________________
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Bruce,

Back in the 1970's car washes were a big item with the oil companies.
The largest maintenance item with car washes was electric drive motors.
To minimize these problems a great deal of work was done on hydraulic
motors. At the same time, pipeline operations went to hydraulic drives
on a lot of their valve operators. You must be looking in the wrong
places for assistance, because there are plenty of businesses that
specialize in hydraulic motors and the hydraulic pump packages that
produce the hydraulic pressure to drive hydraulic motors. The only
peculiarity to your application is the use of an air cooled engine to
drive the hydraulic pump instead of the usual electric motor. That
should be a direct one to one replacement for any reputable hydraulic
specialist.

There are several things that you should consider. Hydraulic systems
operate at high pressures in order to drive the hydraulic motor. That
high pressure requires special training to work with such systems.
High pressure hydraulic systems have a tendency to develop leaks,
especially where vibration is involved. The resulting complete drive
system will weight far more than a conventional outboard or inboard
system. Finally, if you are having difficulties in securing the
original equipment, think about maintaining it over the long run.

Don't give up on your search, if that is what you really want.

Bryan Swinney
One other problem with hydrallics is to keep costs for the parts
down you end up using fairly high pressure in the lines. While high
pressure hydrallics have some danger they also have excessive noise,
to the point you won't use the boat.

Locally there is a stern wheeller excursion boat that was built
using high pressure hydrallics to drive the wheel, it can be so loud
that you can't carry on a normal conversation on the bow (100 ft.
away) when the boat is underway.

Going to a low pressure hydrallic system can indeed work, but then
the parts get fairly expensive.

Bill H.

> Another place to look might be the hydraulic pumps and motors used
to
> power lobster-pot haulers. They should be resistant to salt water.
>
> But it seems to me you are trying to get around the complication
of
> connecting a motor to a drive shaft mechanically by designing and
> building a more complicated arrangement. The hydraulic pump will
need
> to be connected to the engine and the motor to the drive shaft.
And I
> uderstand these hydraulic arrangements absorb quite a lot of power.
>
> One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines
like
> lawn tractors and Bobcats.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Dillahunty <bdillahu@p...>
wrote:
>
> > > This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro
system
> powered
> > > by a smaller engine ala George Buehler.
Any use of power equipment is completely forbidden by the Amish
religion. Anyone using power tools of any type are "shunned" by the
church community. If they have hydraulic or air tools, they are not
really Amish.

Bryan Swinney
There was Mahdee in what I think was his first Good Boats book.

It was a 29-ton 53-ft schooner designed by Sam Croker Jr. There were
two Winton 10 Kw gasoline-fuelled generators on either side of the
foremast, with a single GE electric motor driving a 2-bladed 28" x
18" feathering prop. As the cost of the powerplant, in Depression
dollars, was $9,200 installed, it was not the cheapest way to
provide auxilliary power.

It should be reasonably easy to find out the energy-converion loss
in generators/alternators and motors. It has to be more than a
simple shaft drive, as Bolger pointed out.

Buying a standard genset would be a good start, but finding a
suitable motor might be more difficult. No reason why it couldn't be
110 or 220V, apart from the obvious risk of electrocution.
Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
> I talked to PB&F about a diesel electric drive. Roger
> Taylor in one of his Good Boats books describes a
> gas/electric schooner or ketch that was built for
> someone from GE in the 1940s or so. It was 6 Volt
> which made it very inefficient.
>
> My idea was to buy a diesel powered welder/generator.
I talked to PB&F about a diesel electric drive. Roger
Taylor in one of his Good Boats books describes a
gas/electric schooner or ketch that was built for
someone from GE in the 1940s or so. It was 6 Volt
which made it very inefficient.

My idea was to buy a diesel powered welder/generator.

Bolger pointed out that every time you change the type
of energy you lose effiency. So going from chemical
(diesel fuel or gas) to mechanical (engine) to
electrical (or hydraulic) back to mechanical to drive
the prop shaft., you've enabled lots of
innefficiencies to stick their camel like noses under
the tent. As I was interested in crossing oceans,
efficiency was quite important.

Having a diesel electric or diesel hydraulic Illinois
would be great. You could have a bow thruster run off
the same system. Plus you could run the usual things
like the anchor windless off the main engine.

I think it is an interesting concept. Probably still
not viable for an ocean crossing power boat.

Phil Smith

--- Howard Stephenson <stephensonhw@...> wrote:

> Another possibility might be diesel-electric, but
> you still have the
> problems of designing it, finding the components at
> a reasonable
> price, and building it; one or maybe two golf-cart
> motors coupled
> together and to the prop shaft, powered by a
> heavy-duty alternator out
> of a truck or something, coupled to the aircooled
> motor?
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen"
> <mariner@n...> wrote:
> > Are we talking hydrostatic drives here?
> >
> > Bryant
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price"
> <cooperprice@c...>
> wrote:
> > > Howard - Following is why I see Hydro as a good
> propulsion source
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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How about the cost and complication of certifying an air-cooled (a la
B&S) engine for marine use? Ignition protected components, flame
arrestor, approved fuel lines, etc.????

Paul Esterle - Freelance Boating Writer
Columbia 10.7/Matilda 20
North East MD
www.captnpauley.com
pages.preferred.com/~pesterle/
Another possibility might be diesel-electric, but you still have the
problems of designing it, finding the components at a reasonable
price, and building it; one or maybe two golf-cart motors coupled
together and to the prop shaft, powered by a heavy-duty alternator out
of a truck or something, coupled to the aircooled motor?

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bryant Owen" <mariner@n...> wrote:
> Are we talking hydrostatic drives here?
>
> Bryant
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:
> > Howard - Following is why I see Hydro as a good propulsion source
Are we talking hydrostatic drives here?

Bryant

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...> wrote:
> Howard - Following is why I see Hydro as a good propulsion source
>
> Hydraulic drives free you up to place the engine anywhere on your
boat - not just in line with the shaft. Basically all it is is an
automatic transmission connected to the pump by hoses.
>
> Hydro drive also fills the availability gap in tranmissions. I know
of only one company that makes a transmission that works with a small
engine, you have to buy the engine with it and it cost $2500 (as of
last fall) and does not feature reverse IIRC. I'd like a bit more
sophistication than direct drive with no reverse. My docking
abilities are questionable enough already!
>
>http://www.mlengine.com/new_page_13.htm
>
> Hydro should be cheap - The weak dollar deals on Chinese
"stationary" diesel engines currently abound. If one can piece
together a hydro drive for under $1500 plus engine (<$500 for a 13hp)
you can have a diesel drive for about what a 2 stroke 9.9hp sells for
(on sale).
>
> The hydro drive is light - and since you are dealing with seperate
components one person can manage installation easily. I've been told
you can also get high torque at low rpm (prop side) using a small air
cooled motor.
>
> By the way - I had a discusion with one of the importers of the
Chinese diesels and he stated that the reason we don't see any of the
low hp marine chinese diesel and transmission combination is no
importer believes they will recoup the cost of EPA certification (he
quoted north of 50k). Apparently "stationary" engines require little
or no certification. One it is designated to go into a vehicle, boats
included, the EPA certification is a big deal.
>
>
> Jon Cassino
>
> This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent
to you.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Howard Stephenson
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:55 PM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines
>
>
> Another place to look might be the hydraulic pumps and motors used to
> power lobster-pot haulers. They should be resistant to salt water.
>
> But it seems to me you are trying to get around the complication of
> connecting a motor to a drive shaft mechanically by designing and
> building a more complicated arrangement. The hydraulic pump will need
> to be connected to the engine and the motor to the drive shaft. And I
> uderstand these hydraulic arrangements absorb quite a lot of power.
>
> One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines
like
> lawn tractors and Bobcats.
>
> Howard
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Dillahunty <bdillahu@p...> wrote:
>
> > > This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro
system
> powered
> > > by a smaller engine ala George Buehler.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Howard - Following is why I see Hydro as a good propulsion source

Hydraulic drives free you up to place the engine anywhere on your boat - not just in line with the shaft. Basically all it is is an automatic transmission connected to the pump by hoses.

Hydro drive also fills the availability gap in tranmissions. I know of only one company that makes a transmission that works with a small engine, you have to buy the engine with it and it cost $2500 (as of last fall) and does not feature reverse IIRC. I'd like a bit more sophistication than direct drive with no reverse. My docking abilities are questionable enough already!

http://www.mlengine.com/new_page_13.htm

Hydro should be cheap - The weak dollar deals on Chinese "stationary" diesel engines currently abound. If one can piece together a hydro drive for under $1500 plus engine (<$500 for a 13hp) you can have a diesel drive for about what a 2 stroke 9.9hp sells for (on sale).

The hydro drive is light - and since you are dealing with seperate components one person can manage installation easily. I've been told you can also get high torque at low rpm (prop side) using a small air cooled motor.

By the way - I had a discusion with one of the importers of the Chinese diesels and he stated that the reason we don't see any of the low hp marine chinese diesel and transmission combination is no importer believes they will recoup the cost of EPA certification (he quoted north of 50k). Apparently "stationary" engines require little or no certification. One it is designated to go into a vehicle, boats included, the EPA certification is a big deal.


Jon Cassino

This email has been scanned by Norton Anti-Virus prior to being sent to you.
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Stephenson
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:55 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines


Another place to look might be the hydraulic pumps and motors used to
power lobster-pot haulers. They should be resistant to salt water.

But it seems to me you are trying to get around the complication of
connecting a motor to a drive shaft mechanically by designing and
building a more complicated arrangement. The hydraulic pump will need
to be connected to the engine and the motor to the drive shaft. And I
uderstand these hydraulic arrangements absorb quite a lot of power.

One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines like
lawn tractors and Bobcats.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Dillahunty <bdillahu@p...> wrote:

> > This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system
powered
> > by a smaller engine ala George Buehler.





Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is a guy who sells a "Marine COnversion Manual" of belt-drive
designs for for air-cooled propulsion in the back of every
Boatbuilder mag proclaiming "Cheap Power Today": Capt. Woodie Owen PO
Box 32172 Charleston, SC 29417, only $10.95. I have been tempted many
times to send him the dough, but I am afraid it will not be as good
as my imagination...

Regarding hyraulic propulsion, I am not an hydraulic engineer, but I
have messed with it on tractors and fork lifts. The problem with the
Northern stuff is it is sized mainly to drive piston cylinders, not
motors. There is big loss in heat to drive fluid, but once there it
is pretty efficient. Big motors are expensive, I have priced them and
they are K$. I think the best approach for small HP requirements is
to couple a small high RPM motor (maybe a stackable hydraulic
gerotor) to an outboard leg, like in the Glen-L Electric conversion
plan:

go tohttp://www.glen-l.com/and search for "electric #405"

Electric Drive
#405 an electric drive system you can make yourself

Jason






--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@c...>
wrote:
> Andy and all -
>
> This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system
powered
> by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys
at
> Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would
work. "That's
> design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other
hydralic
> shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that
small of
> a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only
new what
> I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea
didn't make
> sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking
of
> starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no
info
> available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's
how my
> local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
>
> I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that
there
> basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at
Northern.
> I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the
right parts
> off the shelf.
>
> It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not
to
> mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs
that call
> for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there
was
> useable info to piece together hydo drive.
>
> Anyone car to help?
>
> Would a mail list make sense?
>
> Regards
> Jon Cassino
>
> SNIP-----------------------------------------
> From: ANDREW AIREY
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines
>
>
> How about a pair of hydraulic pump motors from,say,old
> forktrucks.A hydraulic pump will work as a motor but
> you may have to do a couple of mods to relieve
> pressure on the bearing seals
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
Howard Stephenson wrote:
> Another place to look might be the hydraulic pumps and motors used to
> power lobster-pot haulers. They should be resistant to salt water.
>
> But it seems to me you are trying to get around the complication of
> connecting a motor to a drive shaft mechanically by designing and
> building a more complicated arrangement. The hydraulic pump will need
> to be connected to the engine and the motor to the drive shaft. And I
> uderstand these hydraulic arrangements absorb quite a lot of power.
>
> One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines like
> lawn tractors and Bobcats.
>
> Howard
>

They go on up into the "small" tractor range (15-25 HP) "real" tractors...

Forklifts?

Bruce
Another place to look might be the hydraulic pumps and motors used to
power lobster-pot haulers. They should be resistant to salt water.

But it seems to me you are trying to get around the complication of
connecting a motor to a drive shaft mechanically by designing and
building a more complicated arrangement. The hydraulic pump will need
to be connected to the engine and the motor to the drive shaft. And I
uderstand these hydraulic arrangements absorb quite a lot of power.

One more place to look -- hydraulic drives used in small machines like
lawn tractors and Bobcats.

Howard

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Dillahunty <bdillahu@p...> wrote:

> > This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system
powered
> > by a smaller engine ala George Buehler.
Cooper & Price wrote:
> Andy and all -
>
> This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system powered
> by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
> Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work. "That's
> design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other hydralic
> shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that small of
> a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only new what
> I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea didn't make
> sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking of
> starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no info
> available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's how my
> local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
>
> I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that there
> basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at Northern.
> I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the right parts
> off the shelf.
>
> It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not to
> mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs that call
> for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there was
> useable info to piece together hydo drive.
>
> Anyone car to help?
>
> Would a mail list make sense?
>

That might be a good idea... I've made a little way down this same road,
with the same issues as you... it seems to definitely have some
possibilities.

There is at least one outfit in Europe that sells them, I think.

You might check out:

http://www.vonwentzel.net/Prout/01.Propulsion/04.Hydraulics-Design/

If you start a list, let me know... I would be interested, but don't
know how much I could add.

Bruce

> Regards
> Jon Cassino
>
Almost all Amish cabinet shops are powered by hydraulic or air motors, eerie
when you go in them and no noise! Would suggest "Bargaineer" amish
newspaper. Living in the heart of amish country I'm fascinated by what they
do with hydraulics and air.
Comboat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cooper & Price" <cooperprice@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 7:37 PM
Subject: [bolger] Hydralic Drive was Air Cooled Engines


> Andy and all -
>
> This has been a minor quest of mine to come up with a hydro system powered
> by a smaller engine ala George Buehler. I have talked to the guys at
> Northern Tool and they will not specify what pieces would work. "That's
> design work and we don't do design work". I've talked to two other
hydralic
> shops via phone and they either don't understand or don't need that small
of
> a project. Parker sent me a brochure that looks perfect if I only new
what
> I was reading. The one local shop I stopped by said the idea didn't make
> sense. "Doesn't Mercury still make outboards?" I've been thinking of
> starting a mail list regarding this topic as there is really no info
> available for us "hydraulically challenged" kooks. Well - that's how my
> local guy seemed to look at me at any rate!
>
> I'm a cabinet maker not a Hydro Mechanical Engineer. It seem that there
> basically has to be a system ready to be pulled off the shelf at Northern.
> I'm smart enough to assemble one if someone can help me pull the right
parts
> off the shelf.
>
> It would really make it so easy to build some inboard designs (not to
> mention cost effective). I can think of a couple of dozen designs that
call
> for 5 to 20 hp motors that would be more likely be built if there was
> useable info to piece together hydo drive.
>
> Anyone car to help?
>
> Would a mail list make sense?
>
> Regards
> Jon Cassino
>
> SNIP-----------------------------------------
> From: ANDREW AIREY
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 4:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Air Cooled Engines
>
>
> How about a pair of hydraulic pump motors from,say,old
> forktrucks.A hydraulic pump will work as a motor but
> you may have to do a couple of mods to relieve
> pressure on the bearing seals
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>