Re: [bolger] Re: no! not another plywood question!!!
I've seen the photos. Many of you build very lovely looking boats from all manor of plywood. At least they look good on launching day.. However, regardless of the plywood you select to build with, what has greater bearing on the life of the boat is your use, maintenance and storage of the boat.
A boat built from even the lowest grade of plywood used lightly and gently, highly maintained and stored in a climate controlled building will probably outlast all of us, while a boat built of the best plywood, used hard, never maintained, put away wet, stored out in the elements and allowed to fill with leaves and debris between uses will have a short life.
My boats are used hard, receive only repairs necessary to keep them afloat and are stored uncovered out in the back lot. Typically I bail/shovel out the decaying leaves and dirt then hose it down before taking one to the lake. When we get home I pull our junk out and leave the boat as is to fend for itself out back. I don't expect decades of use from mine..... But I still love 'em.......
Rick
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A boat built from even the lowest grade of plywood used lightly and gently, highly maintained and stored in a climate controlled building will probably outlast all of us, while a boat built of the best plywood, used hard, never maintained, put away wet, stored out in the elements and allowed to fill with leaves and debris between uses will have a short life.
My boats are used hard, receive only repairs necessary to keep them afloat and are stored uncovered out in the back lot. Typically I bail/shovel out the decaying leaves and dirt then hose it down before taking one to the lake. When we get home I pull our junk out and leave the boat as is to fend for itself out back. I don't expect decades of use from mine..... But I still love 'em.......
Rick
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You're right, there's no consensus. However, I've got a five year old
Chebacco with no checking or other deterioration, so maybe my
experience will help.
The mahogany type plys were too expensive for me, so I went with marine
grade fir. I found the quality high, with no voids. It worked nicely
without splitting at the edges, and took epoxy and held screws
perfectly. (I understand MDO is also high quality, and that it takes
epoxy as well as regular ply, but I've never used it.)
Fir will check in the sun if only covered with paint, but I already
planned to glass the whole outside, wherever salt water and/or sun
could reach. Took more time and effort, but the peace of mind is worth
it.
You're looking for a long-lived boat, and are going to glass it. Glass
over ply gives a very stable surface, so you might consider a
polyurethane paint. I used a two part variety, there are one part poly
paints available (e.g. Brightsides) and System Three has a water based
two part paint that isn't highly toxic like the stuff I used. Anyway,
this type of paint will last and last. After five years, with no more
care than an occasional wash with fresh water, my paint is in great
shape. I've been asked twice this summer if the boat/paint is new.
Other plys might do as well, but I haven't used them, so can't say.
What I do know is that marine fir, glass and epoxy, and a good paint
has lasted very well so far, and I see no reason for that to change.
Cheers,
Jamie Orr,
Chebacco Wayward Lass
Chebacco with no checking or other deterioration, so maybe my
experience will help.
The mahogany type plys were too expensive for me, so I went with marine
grade fir. I found the quality high, with no voids. It worked nicely
without splitting at the edges, and took epoxy and held screws
perfectly. (I understand MDO is also high quality, and that it takes
epoxy as well as regular ply, but I've never used it.)
Fir will check in the sun if only covered with paint, but I already
planned to glass the whole outside, wherever salt water and/or sun
could reach. Took more time and effort, but the peace of mind is worth
it.
You're looking for a long-lived boat, and are going to glass it. Glass
over ply gives a very stable surface, so you might consider a
polyurethane paint. I used a two part variety, there are one part poly
paints available (e.g. Brightsides) and System Three has a water based
two part paint that isn't highly toxic like the stuff I used. Anyway,
this type of paint will last and last. After five years, with no more
care than an occasional wash with fresh water, my paint is in great
shape. I've been asked twice this summer if the boat/paint is new.
Other plys might do as well, but I haven't used them, so can't say.
What I do know is that marine fir, glass and epoxy, and a good paint
has lasted very well so far, and I see no reason for that to change.
Cheers,
Jamie Orr,
Chebacco Wayward Lass
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wadewv" <barbfull@m...> wrote:
> Yes, it's true.
> I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
> line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
> contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
> subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this,
neither
> review are worth a red cent.
> E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
> it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted finishes.
> Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if one
goes
> with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you but obviously
> it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concerned
with
> the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonable price
> (where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).
> So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the cheapest
> that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
> epoxy, and several coats of paint?
In general, any plywood (including the "good stuff") will eventually check
unless it is sheathed in fiberglass. Fiberglass sheathing adds material
cost, labor cost and aggrevation (there is a Chebacco named "Itchy and
Scratchy"), and weight. Sign quakity MDO prevents checking with a medium
density overlay. MDO is moderately expensive and generally has to be
shipped from a supplier. In my old age and relative prosperity, I take the
position that material costs are a relatively small part of building a boat
and I buy the best I can find; the incremental cost between el cheapo and
good stuff is not all that great when you factor in such things as sails,
motors, hardware, trailer, etc.
If you are building a boat for the ages, build with the best stuff you can
find. If you are building a boat for semi-destructive use, buy the cheapest
stuff you can get away with. If you're really broke, a used boat will
probably be cheaper than a comparable home built boat.
It has been my experience that boat building is like eating potato
chips--it's hard to stop with one! Given that most beginning boat builders
are starting with little experience and few tools, a small, simple project
built with inexpensive materials and neatly finished is probably the way to
go.
John T
unless it is sheathed in fiberglass. Fiberglass sheathing adds material
cost, labor cost and aggrevation (there is a Chebacco named "Itchy and
Scratchy"), and weight. Sign quakity MDO prevents checking with a medium
density overlay. MDO is moderately expensive and generally has to be
shipped from a supplier. In my old age and relative prosperity, I take the
position that material costs are a relatively small part of building a boat
and I buy the best I can find; the incremental cost between el cheapo and
good stuff is not all that great when you factor in such things as sails,
motors, hardware, trailer, etc.
If you are building a boat for the ages, build with the best stuff you can
find. If you are building a boat for semi-destructive use, buy the cheapest
stuff you can get away with. If you're really broke, a used boat will
probably be cheaper than a comparable home built boat.
It has been my experience that boat building is like eating potato
chips--it's hard to stop with one! Given that most beginning boat builders
are starting with little experience and few tools, a small, simple project
built with inexpensive materials and neatly finished is probably the way to
go.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "wadewv" <barbfull@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 11:44 PM
Subject: [bolger] no! not another plywood question!!!
> Yes, it's true.
> I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
> line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
> contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
> subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this, neither
> review are worth a red cent.
> E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
> it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted finishes.
> Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if one goes
> with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you but obviously
> it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concerned with
> the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonable price
> (where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).
> So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the cheapest
> that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
> epoxy, and several coats of paint?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
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> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
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>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wadewv" <barbfull@m...> wrote:
plywood in general. (Baltic birch the exception:-)
You look at the descriptions of the best available at this link and
find the one what most closely matches it and your pocket book.
http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/Plywoods-us/plywoods-us.html
Two things to notice:
The number of plies for a given thickness.
The thickness of the face plies.
From the above link you will see that BS 1088 Meranti is the best
bargain (Thicker face veneers.)and BS 6056 Meranti if you want 1/8"
plywood.
If MDO is available you can compare the prices to this table and also
compare the number of plies in each thickness to the above table to
the prices and you will find that MDO is considerably cheaper and is
every bit as long lasting if it is fir especially. The overylay
prevents grain print through and is there superior to marine grade fir.
In my personal opinion Crezone MDO is the best bargain, especially if
you get the Finished one side kind. Signal MDO is the best all around
choice if one can afford it and also comes in 5/16" which Crezone does
not.
I posted some time back a table giving a price comparison for MDO
based on prices at Harbour Sales and how to obtain it elsewhere by
calling your regional salesperson at Olympic. 1-800 link is in the
links here I think.
A boat build from any of these and finished properly (which is a big
factor) should last a minimum of 20 years. That includes epoxy
encapsulation glasss to the waterline and three coats of Brightside.
All edge grain sealed.
Quality materials + workmanship + proper maintenance = long lasting.
All three are important.
Nels
> So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the cheapestHere is a general test that I believe gives you a good assessment of
> that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
> epoxy, and several coats of paint?
plywood in general. (Baltic birch the exception:-)
You look at the descriptions of the best available at this link and
find the one what most closely matches it and your pocket book.
http://www.noahsmarine.com/United_States/Plywoods-us/plywoods-us.html
Two things to notice:
The number of plies for a given thickness.
The thickness of the face plies.
From the above link you will see that BS 1088 Meranti is the best
bargain (Thicker face veneers.)and BS 6056 Meranti if you want 1/8"
plywood.
If MDO is available you can compare the prices to this table and also
compare the number of plies in each thickness to the above table to
the prices and you will find that MDO is considerably cheaper and is
every bit as long lasting if it is fir especially. The overylay
prevents grain print through and is there superior to marine grade fir.
In my personal opinion Crezone MDO is the best bargain, especially if
you get the Finished one side kind. Signal MDO is the best all around
choice if one can afford it and also comes in 5/16" which Crezone does
not.
I posted some time back a table giving a price comparison for MDO
based on prices at Harbour Sales and how to obtain it elsewhere by
calling your regional salesperson at Olympic. 1-800 link is in the
links here I think.
A boat build from any of these and finished properly (which is a big
factor) should last a minimum of 20 years. That includes epoxy
encapsulation glasss to the waterline and three coats of Brightside.
All edge grain sealed.
Quality materials + workmanship + proper maintenance = long lasting.
All three are important.
Nels
On 7/26/05, wadewv wrote:
'the job'? Different boats have different jobs, of course.
why should a boat last for decades?
I may (will) not be alive 'decades' from now.
Can you predict that the boat you want this
year will be the same boat you want in 2025?
Why should a boat outlast most automobiles?
> with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you but obviously----------------------------------^^^^^^^^^
> it is the best material for the job.
'the job'? Different boats have different jobs, of course.
> What type of plywood is the cheapestYou must be younger than I am,
> that will last for years (read decades) ?
why should a boat last for decades?
I may (will) not be alive 'decades' from now.
Can you predict that the boat you want this
year will be the same boat you want in 2025?
Why should a boat outlast most automobiles?
In my AS-29, I used standard ACX exclusively, and took stock in the
epoxy company. Glassing the panels while flat on the floor reduces
fairing time. There are no real hard curves in the 29, so the
occasional void wasn't a problem unless it came in the way of a
fastener. (See the result in Bolger4photos, AS-29 folder.)
MDO isn't available where I live except by special order. Since I'm
generally averse to shipping charges, I bought what was available locally.
The whole Bolger philosophy of boat building is keep it simple, and
keep it cheap. Most designs are intended to be built from whatever you
can get.
Don't fret about what stuff to use, just build. It will all work out.
epoxy company. Glassing the panels while flat on the floor reduces
fairing time. There are no real hard curves in the 29, so the
occasional void wasn't a problem unless it came in the way of a
fastener. (See the result in Bolger4photos, AS-29 folder.)
MDO isn't available where I live except by special order. Since I'm
generally averse to shipping charges, I bought what was available locally.
The whole Bolger philosophy of boat building is keep it simple, and
keep it cheap. Most designs are intended to be built from whatever you
can get.
Don't fret about what stuff to use, just build. It will all work out.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Hamm" <griff10us@y...> wrote:
> If you're going to glass it and the curves are large radius,
> exterior grade fir will work fine. When you get into tight bends
> though the voids that are usually present in that material will show
> itself. And lumberyard plywood now days isn't the same thickness as
> marine grade, it's slightly thinner, so you will have problems using
> part marine and part exterior grade.
>
> Superply I suspect will work fine if you can stand the weight
> difference, it's a hardwood (unknown species) plywood, but it's
> pretty nice stuff compared to the average lumber yard stuff.
>
> Bill H.
>
> > Yes, it's true.
> > I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
> > line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
> > contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
> > subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this,
> neither
> > review are worth a red cent.
> > E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
> > it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted
> finishes.
> > Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if one
> goes
> > with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you but
> obviously
> > it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concerned
> with
> > the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonable
> price
> > (where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).
> > So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the
> cheapest
> > that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
> > epoxy, and several coats of paint?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wadewv" <barbfull@m...> wrote:
be to ship plywood to you.The best advice may be to simply see what
folks are using in your specific region,with success,and evaluate it
from your own observations whether or not it will meet your
needs.Otherwise,read through some of the archived postings here and
elsewhere and draw your own conclusions.Either way,if you intend to
go the glass/epoxy/primer and several coats of paint route,your
finished panel ain't gonna be all that cheap in the end :-)
Like most things in life,the strength of your convictions will be
measured by your actions and those actions will be guided by the
depth of your passion(interest).Don't let two apposing views prevent
you from discovering your own pleasant answers.
Happy enjoining of thought to deed!
Sincerely,
Peter "I prefer MDO" Lenihan, from along the shores of the mighty
St.Lawrence..........
> Yes, it's true.neither
> I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
> line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
> contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
> subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this,
> review are worth a red cent.finishes.
> E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
> it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted
> Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if onegoes
> with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you butobviously
> it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concernedwith
> the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonableprice
> (where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).cheapest
> So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the
> that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,It all depends on where you live,doesn't it,and how expensive it may
> epoxy, and several coats of paint?
be to ship plywood to you.The best advice may be to simply see what
folks are using in your specific region,with success,and evaluate it
from your own observations whether or not it will meet your
needs.Otherwise,read through some of the archived postings here and
elsewhere and draw your own conclusions.Either way,if you intend to
go the glass/epoxy/primer and several coats of paint route,your
finished panel ain't gonna be all that cheap in the end :-)
Like most things in life,the strength of your convictions will be
measured by your actions and those actions will be guided by the
depth of your passion(interest).Don't let two apposing views prevent
you from discovering your own pleasant answers.
Happy enjoining of thought to deed!
Sincerely,
Peter "I prefer MDO" Lenihan, from along the shores of the mighty
St.Lawrence..........
If you're going to glass it and the curves are large radius,
exterior grade fir will work fine. When you get into tight bends
though the voids that are usually present in that material will show
itself. And lumberyard plywood now days isn't the same thickness as
marine grade, it's slightly thinner, so you will have problems using
part marine and part exterior grade.
Superply I suspect will work fine if you can stand the weight
difference, it's a hardwood (unknown species) plywood, but it's
pretty nice stuff compared to the average lumber yard stuff.
Bill H.
exterior grade fir will work fine. When you get into tight bends
though the voids that are usually present in that material will show
itself. And lumberyard plywood now days isn't the same thickness as
marine grade, it's slightly thinner, so you will have problems using
part marine and part exterior grade.
Superply I suspect will work fine if you can stand the weight
difference, it's a hardwood (unknown species) plywood, but it's
pretty nice stuff compared to the average lumber yard stuff.
Bill H.
> Yes, it's true.neither
> I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
> line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
> contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
> subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this,
> review are worth a red cent.finishes.
> E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
> it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted
> Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if onegoes
> with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you butobviously
> it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concernedwith
> the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonableprice
> (where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).cheapest
> So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the
> that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
> epoxy, and several coats of paint?
Yes, it's true.
I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this, neither
review are worth a red cent.
E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted finishes.
Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if one goes
with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you but obviously
it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concerned with
the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonable price
(where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).
So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the cheapest
that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
epoxy, and several coats of paint?
I'm sorry, but there seems to be no consensus on where to draw the
line in plywood grade. It's like book reviews on amazon - two
contributors; one thinks it's the best book ever written on the
subject, the other thinks it's absolute tosh. Because of this, neither
review are worth a red cent.
E.G. - some think MDO is fine for building hulls (Beuhler), due to
it's relative lack of voids and smooth surface for painted finishes.
Others wouldn't touch it with someone else's spar. Clearly if one goes
with 1088 oakume then no worries - It will bankrupt you but obviously
it is the best material for the job. But this thread is concerned with
the borderline area between acceptable quality and reasonable price
(where I imagine most Bolger fans find themselves).
So I'll beat a dead horse here: What type of plywood is the cheapest
that will last for years (read decades) when covered with glass,
epoxy, and several coats of paint?