Re: more AS-29 performance data
Ok, I went and got out the plans, then measured on the boat where the
waterline is now- Zoella is almost exactly 2" deeper than the plans'
waterline.
I don't know which set of data is off, but I doubt that Bolger
calculated Disp that carefully for this boat. Reason for that doubt is
that he didn't specify a plywood type, other than to say that cheap
ply suited the design. So: 55 specified sheets of (not cheap) 1/2"
Okume would come in at ~1980#, with (medium priced) Douglas Fir ply
coming in at 2640#, but (cheap) Southern Yellow Pine ply would come in
at about 3200#. Quite a difference there.
Something tells me that the 7,300 figure is more likely to be empty
weight than typical loaded displacement. Every designer seems to do
this differently, and most are not particularly informative of what
exactly they mean.
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
waterline is now- Zoella is almost exactly 2" deeper than the plans'
waterline.
I don't know which set of data is off, but I doubt that Bolger
calculated Disp that carefully for this boat. Reason for that doubt is
that he didn't specify a plywood type, other than to say that cheap
ply suited the design. So: 55 specified sheets of (not cheap) 1/2"
Okume would come in at ~1980#, with (medium priced) Douglas Fir ply
coming in at 2640#, but (cheap) Southern Yellow Pine ply would come in
at about 3200#. Quite a difference there.
Something tells me that the 7,300 figure is more likely to be empty
weight than typical loaded displacement. Every designer seems to do
this differently, and most are not particularly informative of what
exactly they mean.
John
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
> Let's say it's 750 ppi (salt water), although a minute or two with a
> calculator suggests it's less than that (667?). This would mean that
> it should be 3-1/3" below the dwl i.e. (10,000-7,300)/750.
>
> Does anyone know how accurately the designer calculates his
> displacment values?
>
> Howard
>
> --- --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
> wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
> >
> >
> > > You must be sitting rather deep in the water to begin
> > > with. My rough calc puts you at about 4.5" lower than DWL. Is
> that
> > right?
> >
> > No; maybe 1 inch?
Well, the cockpit is a bit cramped for 5. At the dock, 5 people can
fit in the cockpit, but under sail you need room to manage the tiller.
On a tack, the tiller handle swings quite wide. So we sat 2 on the
bridge deck, with their backs to the cabin trunk, and one sat in the
companionway on the top step of the ladder, also serving as bar tender
for the rest of us.* It is also possible to sit comformtably on the
foredeck, with your back to the trunk, but that makes participating in
the conversation difficult. On a hot day, the bow well seats 2 if they
don't mind getting wet and fitting themselves in around the anchor and
its gear.
For those who don't mind watching the scenery through plexiglass,
there's always the spacious cabin...
One thing I've noticed is that under most conditions, sitting of the
leeward side in this boat isn't too bad. The low angle of heel and the
high freeboard mean that you never bury the rail, so getting wet
hasn't been an issue. I have pretty high seat-backs in the cockpit,
angled to be comfortable, and well braced. (I attached a piece of fir
between each brace and the sheer. This makes the seat-backs very
strong.) So far, I very seldom shift from one side to the other as I
change tacks. My weight on one side or the other doesn't seem to
affect the heel. The ton of lead in the belly of the boat seems to
make more of a difference. I can't compete with that.
*Soft drinks only while under way, of course.
fit in the cockpit, but under sail you need room to manage the tiller.
On a tack, the tiller handle swings quite wide. So we sat 2 on the
bridge deck, with their backs to the cabin trunk, and one sat in the
companionway on the top step of the ladder, also serving as bar tender
for the rest of us.* It is also possible to sit comformtably on the
foredeck, with your back to the trunk, but that makes participating in
the conversation difficult. On a hot day, the bow well seats 2 if they
don't mind getting wet and fitting themselves in around the anchor and
its gear.
For those who don't mind watching the scenery through plexiglass,
there's always the spacious cabin...
One thing I've noticed is that under most conditions, sitting of the
leeward side in this boat isn't too bad. The low angle of heel and the
high freeboard mean that you never bury the rail, so getting wet
hasn't been an issue. I have pretty high seat-backs in the cockpit,
angled to be comfortable, and well braced. (I attached a piece of fir
between each brace and the sheer. This makes the seat-backs very
strong.) So far, I very seldom shift from one side to the other as I
change tacks. My weight on one side or the other doesn't seem to
affect the heel. The ton of lead in the belly of the boat seems to
make more of a difference. I can't compete with that.
*Soft drinks only while under way, of course.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> On 8/7/05, willers32 wrote:
>
> > total of 5 people aboard.
>
> Where do 5 people choose to hang out on the boat while sailing?
> Does everybody find it comfortable to hand out in the cockpit
> or is it too tight for that?
Wow, your yard must have even more character than
mine. If the motor whaleboat had been $2,500 instead
of $25,000, it would probably be sitting in a cradle
out back right now, between the old Lister Diesel, the
'glass canoe somebody gave me that just needs a few
(dozen) hours of work, the '66 Shasta camper, the . .
.
Sam
--- Susan Davis <futabachan@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
mine. If the motor whaleboat had been $2,500 instead
of $25,000, it would probably be sitting in a cradle
out back right now, between the old Lister Diesel, the
'glass canoe somebody gave me that just needs a few
(dozen) hours of work, the '66 Shasta camper, the . .
.
Sam
--- Susan Davis <futabachan@...> wrote:
> > Did anyone else see the 26' Navy Whaleboat on__________________________________________________
> eBay?
>
> eBay is a truly evil place. I very nearly wound up
> A) with a 45'
> ferrocement liveaboard ketch or B) taking over
> someone's abandoned
> Mount Gay 30 construction project. And now I'm the
> proud owner of a
> beat-up old J/24 that I put in a lowball offer
> on....
>
> -- Sue --
> (J/24 308)
>
> --
> Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
>
>
>
>
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
> Did anyone else see the 26' Navy Whaleboat on eBay?eBay is a truly evil place. I very nearly wound up A) with a 45'
ferrocement liveaboard ketch or B) taking over someone's abandoned
Mount Gay 30 construction project. And now I'm the proud owner of a
beat-up old J/24 that I put in a lowball offer on....
-- Sue --
(J/24 308)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
On 8/7/05, willers32 wrote:
Does everybody find it comfortable to hand out in the cockpit
or is it too tight for that?
> total of 5 people aboard.Where do 5 people choose to hang out on the boat while sailing?
Does everybody find it comfortable to hand out in the cockpit
or is it too tight for that?
> Also, the IP boats are all full keel. This is great for off shoreGranted that we have a light air environment here in Long Island
> where you want consistent tracking for long tacks,
> but they tend to be sluggish when you try to tack in a hurry.
Sound, but the reputation of the 26'/27' IP boats is that they are
sluggish sailers, and difficult to tack. AS-29 has the reputation of
fun to sail.
You can get some of the virtues of the IP's for cheap in an Irwin
10/4, if you don't mind the annoyances of an older boat:
http://tinyurl.com/8b5vr
I just did a Google search on the IP 27. It turns out that this model
is discontinued by Island Packet; at least it's not in their current
catalog. I looked for some used boats for sail, and it seems the range
is around $45,000 to $53,000 for a used boat in the range of 15 to 20
years old. Combined cost for all materials for my NEW AS-29 is about a
third of that.
Also, the IP boats are all full keel. This is great for off shore
where you want consistent tracking for long tacks, but they tend to be
sluggish when you try to tack in a hurry. Now I know my strategy for
that one-on-one: a tacking duel. The AS-29 tacks on a dime, he won't
stand a chance.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
wrote:
is discontinued by Island Packet; at least it's not in their current
catalog. I looked for some used boats for sail, and it seems the range
is around $45,000 to $53,000 for a used boat in the range of 15 to 20
years old. Combined cost for all materials for my NEW AS-29 is about a
third of that.
Also, the IP boats are all full keel. This is great for off shore
where you want consistent tracking for long tacks, but they tend to be
sluggish when you try to tack in a hurry. Now I know my strategy for
that one-on-one: a tacking duel. The AS-29 tacks on a dime, he won't
stand a chance.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:
> >
> > We docked at one of the newer dockside restaurants for dinner. We
> had
> > to fend off the numerous curious onlookers and admirers. She always
> > draws positive comments wherever we go.
> > Also, I ran the AS-29 on Carl's sail calculator:
>
> Carl's sail calculator doesn't figure the admiring crowd factor, but
> I rekon the AS-29 without reacher would score better than the IP27 ;)
>
> >http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
> > This site allows you to pick 2 boats and run side by side
> comparisons
> > of the basic performance indicating factors. I ran the AS-29 vs the
> > Island Packet 27. In all areas the AS-29 compares very favorably
> >with the VERY expensive Island Packet. According to Carl's, the
> >designeddisplacement on the 29 is 7237, the PPI is 655, the sail
> >area todisplacement ratio (no spin.) is 15.44. (The IP sa/d is
> >16.21, prettyclose.)
>
> The numbers do seem quite close, except for the wider beam of the IP-
> 27, the ~30% less motion comfort, and pick your "x" factor, either
> the ~30% worse capsize ratio, or the (guess-100's%) worse hole in
> the finances.
>
> > There is an IP in my marina and I have yet to see it seriously
> > outperform the AS-29 under any conditions. I expect that as I gain
> > experience with this boat, I could take him on for a little one on
> one.
>
> Ye-hahh, a match!
> Happy sailing
> Graeme
>
> PS. Is that capsize factor Wharram's?
I'm accustomed to the normal creaks and groans in a traditional
woodedn boat. I once owned a 1932 45' wooden ketch. It made noises all
the time. I'm just not accustomed to the noises in a
plywood/epoxy/glass boat. The micro I built 10 years ago never made
these noises. It just made a "clunk" now and then as the mast shifted
in its partner.
One thing I noticed this weekend was the hinge pin in the mast
tabernacle shifted about 1/2". The plans don't specify how this pin is
to be secured, so I assumed (yeah, I know that's a bad word) that
gravity would do the trick. I tapped it back into position, but now
I'm wondering if I should put some sort of stop on it. The best would
likely be a pin directly in the stainless hinge pin itself, but the
idea of drilling through that stainless doesn't appeal to me. I have a
spare rod I can use as a temporary if I have to pull the original one
out to drill it, but I'd rather not go through all that. I am think a
small stainless rod or bolt drilled into the tabernacle itself would
work to prevent the rod from sliding.
Anyone have any ideas?
woodedn boat. I once owned a 1932 45' wooden ketch. It made noises all
the time. I'm just not accustomed to the noises in a
plywood/epoxy/glass boat. The micro I built 10 years ago never made
these noises. It just made a "clunk" now and then as the mast shifted
in its partner.
One thing I noticed this weekend was the hinge pin in the mast
tabernacle shifted about 1/2". The plans don't specify how this pin is
to be secured, so I assumed (yeah, I know that's a bad word) that
gravity would do the trick. I tapped it back into position, but now
I'm wondering if I should put some sort of stop on it. The best would
likely be a pin directly in the stainless hinge pin itself, but the
idea of drilling through that stainless doesn't appeal to me. I have a
spare rod I can use as a temporary if I have to pull the original one
out to drill it, but I'd rather not go through all that. I am think a
small stainless rod or bolt drilled into the tabernacle itself would
work to prevent the rod from sliding.
Anyone have any ideas?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, David Ryan <david@c...> wrote:
>
> On Aug 4, 2005, at 2:14 PM, willers32 wrote:
>
> > My mast is Doug fir, and it does seem to hold up well. I can't really
> > say exactly where the creaking and groaning came from. Maybe just the
> > "newness" shaking out. Hence, the term "shakedown cruise."
>
> I've had my schooner for six years. Still creaks and groans. Sailed on
> the Bluenose II a couple years back. She creaked and groaned too. I
> think that's what wooden boats do.
On Aug 4, 2005, at 2:14 PM, willers32 wrote:
the Bluenose II a couple years back. She creaked and groaned too. I
think that's what wooden boats do.
> My mast is Doug fir, and it does seem to hold up well. I can't reallyI've had my schooner for six years. Still creaks and groans. Sailed on
> say exactly where the creaking and groaning came from. Maybe just the
> "newness" shaking out. Hence, the term "shakedown cruise."
the Bluenose II a couple years back. She creaked and groaned too. I
think that's what wooden boats do.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:
I rekon the AS-29 without reacher would score better than the IP27 ;)
27, the ~30% less motion comfort, and pick your "x" factor, either
the ~30% worse capsize ratio, or the (guess-100's%) worse hole in
the finances.
Ye-hahh, a match!
Happy sailing
Graeme
PS. Is that capsize factor Wharram's?
>had
> We docked at one of the newer dockside restaurants for dinner. We
> to fend off the numerous curious onlookers and admirers. She alwaysCarl's sail calculator doesn't figure the admiring crowd factor, but
> draws positive comments wherever we go.
> Also, I ran the AS-29 on Carl's sail calculator:
I rekon the AS-29 without reacher would score better than the IP27 ;)
>http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.htmlcomparisons
> This site allows you to pick 2 boats and run side by side
> of the basic performance indicating factors. I ran the AS-29 vs theThe numbers do seem quite close, except for the wider beam of the IP-
> Island Packet 27. In all areas the AS-29 compares very favorably
>with the VERY expensive Island Packet. According to Carl's, the
>designeddisplacement on the 29 is 7237, the PPI is 655, the sail
>area todisplacement ratio (no spin.) is 15.44. (The IP sa/d is
>16.21, prettyclose.)
27, the ~30% less motion comfort, and pick your "x" factor, either
the ~30% worse capsize ratio, or the (guess-100's%) worse hole in
the finances.
> There is an IP in my marina and I have yet to see it seriouslyone.
> outperform the AS-29 under any conditions. I expect that as I gain
> experience with this boat, I could take him on for a little one on
Ye-hahh, a match!
Happy sailing
Graeme
PS. Is that capsize factor Wharram's?
Did anyone else see the 26' Navy Whaleboat on eBay?
It was converted in '63 to an auxilliary sloop by the
Krogen yard for Burl Ives. Has a glass cabin and in
fact is very similar in size and appearance to
Bolger's Delaware concept. The ad mentions that
Krogen did three of these conversions. Anybody know
anything about them? The ad calls this a "sailing
auxilliery", but I note she has a 37 hp Westerbeke
diesel and carries one hundred gallons of fuel--you
tell me if it is the diesel or the sails that are
"auxilliary." I suspect this is a true motorsailer
under Bolger's definition--that is, the motor to be
used with the sails, all the time. The ad says
"shallow draft" but nothing about what that draft is,
or how it is fixed. It certainly is intruiging--the
motor whaleboats had a great reputation as sea boats.
Supposed to be in good shape after a refit. I wonder
what it is worth; not $25,000 at auction, apparently.
She drew no bids at that starting price. Sam
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
It was converted in '63 to an auxilliary sloop by the
Krogen yard for Burl Ives. Has a glass cabin and in
fact is very similar in size and appearance to
Bolger's Delaware concept. The ad mentions that
Krogen did three of these conversions. Anybody know
anything about them? The ad calls this a "sailing
auxilliery", but I note she has a 37 hp Westerbeke
diesel and carries one hundred gallons of fuel--you
tell me if it is the diesel or the sails that are
"auxilliary." I suspect this is a true motorsailer
under Bolger's definition--that is, the motor to be
used with the sails, all the time. The ad says
"shallow draft" but nothing about what that draft is,
or how it is fixed. It certainly is intruiging--the
motor whaleboats had a great reputation as sea boats.
Supposed to be in good shape after a refit. I wonder
what it is worth; not $25,000 at auction, apparently.
She drew no bids at that starting price. Sam
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
This weekend we had guest crew for the first time. My son showed up,
and a friend from work and his wife. With me, and my lady it made a
total of 5 people aboard. The boat hardly seemed to notice the extra
weight. We went out for a couple hours in very light wind. Not the
most exciting ride, but the boat performed well for the conditions.
We docked at one of the newer dockside restaurants for dinner. We had
to fend off the numerous curious onlookers and admirers. She always
draws positive comments wherever we go.
Also, I ran the AS-29 on Carl's sail calculator:
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
This site allows you to pick 2 boats and run side by side comparisons
of the basic performance indicating factors. I ran the AS-29 vs the
Island Packet 27. In all areas the AS-29 compares very favorably with
the VERY expensive Island Packet. According to Carl's, the designed
displacement on the 29 is 7237, the PPI is 655, the sail area to
displacement ratio (no spin.) is 15.44. (The IP sa/d is 16.21, pretty
close.)
There is an IP in my marina and I have yet to see it seriously
outperform the AS-29 under any conditions. I expect that as I gain
experience with this boat, I could take him on for a little one on one.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
and a friend from work and his wife. With me, and my lady it made a
total of 5 people aboard. The boat hardly seemed to notice the extra
weight. We went out for a couple hours in very light wind. Not the
most exciting ride, but the boat performed well for the conditions.
We docked at one of the newer dockside restaurants for dinner. We had
to fend off the numerous curious onlookers and admirers. She always
draws positive comments wherever we go.
Also, I ran the AS-29 on Carl's sail calculator:
http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html
This site allows you to pick 2 boats and run side by side comparisons
of the basic performance indicating factors. I ran the AS-29 vs the
Island Packet 27. In all areas the AS-29 compares very favorably with
the VERY expensive Island Packet. According to Carl's, the designed
displacement on the 29 is 7237, the PPI is 655, the sail area to
displacement ratio (no spin.) is 15.44. (The IP sa/d is 16.21, pretty
close.)
There is an IP in my marina and I have yet to see it seriously
outperform the AS-29 under any conditions. I expect that as I gain
experience with this boat, I could take him on for a little one on one.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@a...>
wrote:
> Let's say it's 750 ppi (salt water), although a minute or two with a
> calculator suggests it's less than that (667?). This would mean that
> it should be 3-1/3" below the dwl i.e. (10,000-7,300)/750.
>
> Does anyone know how accurately the designer calculates his
> displacment values?
>
> Howard
>
> --- --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
> wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:
> > > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
> > >
> > > > Granted, I am sailing at 10,000# loaded displacement...
> > >
> > > What are you carrying? 7,300 is the rated displacement, and the
> PPI is
> > > around 600#.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure that 600# figure is off. And, I'm not sure that
> Zoella
> > came in at 7.anything; I never had the opportunity to put her into
> the
> > slings empty. She was fully loaded as a liveaboard, with full
> tanks,
> > when she was hauled (weighed in the slings) for her last bottom
> paint.
> >
> >
> > > You must be sitting rather deep in the water to begin
> > > with. My rough calc puts you at about 4.5" lower than DWL. Is
> that
> > right?
> >
> > No; maybe 1 inch?
Let's say it's 750 ppi (salt water), although a minute or two with a
calculator suggests it's less than that (667?). This would mean that
it should be 3-1/3" below the dwl i.e. (10,000-7,300)/750.
Does anyone know how accurately the designer calculates his
displacment values?
Howard
--- --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
wrote:
calculator suggests it's less than that (667?). This would mean that
it should be 3-1/3" below the dwl i.e. (10,000-7,300)/750.
Does anyone know how accurately the designer calculates his
displacment values?
Howard
--- --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:PPI is
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>
> >
> > > Granted, I am sailing at 10,000# loaded displacement...
> >
> > What are you carrying? 7,300 is the rated displacement, and the
> > around 600#.Zoella
>
> I'm pretty sure that 600# figure is off. And, I'm not sure that
> came in at 7.anything; I never had the opportunity to put her intothe
> slings empty. She was fully loaded as a liveaboard, with fulltanks,
> when she was hauled (weighed in the slings) for her last bottompaint.
>that
>
> > You must be sitting rather deep in the water to begin
> > with. My rough calc puts you at about 4.5" lower than DWL. Is
> right?
>
> No; maybe 1 inch?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:
a big help there; the reason for carrying it at ~15 knots is control-
it balances the forces on either side of the mast, taking stress off
the rudder.
For speed, I've seen a fairly steady 7.2 knots in ~15 knots wind,
broad reaching. Coming into the Savannah, GA, channel this spring,
under double reef and a building , following thunderstorm, I was
running a consistent 6.2 knots, wishing I was going slower.
time... :-)
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...> wrote:The AS-29 is somewhat under-rigged for light air and the spin would be
>
>
> > Matt (last name?- builder of an AS-29 in Australia) said he
> > could sail off-wind under full main plus single-luff spinnaker in 15
> > knots, but thought that was the practical limit.
> >
> 15 kn of wind and he has the spinnaker up? Why? in 15 knots, without
> spinnaker, I was blasting along so fast, my knotstick pinned at its
> limit of 6 knots. How much faster do these things go? Hull speed ought
> to be about 7, with the boat heeled and the overhangs buried.
a big help there; the reason for carrying it at ~15 knots is control-
it balances the forces on either side of the mast, taking stress off
the rudder.
For speed, I've seen a fairly steady 7.2 knots in ~15 knots wind,
broad reaching. Coming into the Savannah, GA, channel this spring,
under double reef and a building , following thunderstorm, I was
running a consistent 6.2 knots, wishing I was going slower.
>Those reef points are there for the times you didn't make it back in
>
> I have no doubt. I think I'd be tied up at the marina long before the
> wind got to 35.
time... :-)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "willers32" <mwagner@f...> wrote:
came in at 7.anything; I never had the opportunity to put her into the
slings empty. She was fully loaded as a liveaboard, with full tanks,
when she was hauled (weighed in the slings) for her last bottom paint.
No; maybe 1 inch?
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...>I'm pretty sure that 600# figure is off. And, I'm not sure that Zoella
>
> > Granted, I am sailing at 10,000# loaded displacement...
>
> What are you carrying? 7,300 is the rated displacement, and the PPI is
> around 600#.
came in at 7.anything; I never had the opportunity to put her into the
slings empty. She was fully loaded as a liveaboard, with full tanks,
when she was hauled (weighed in the slings) for her last bottom paint.
> You must be sitting rather deep in the water to beginright?
> with. My rough calc puts you at about 4.5" lower than DWL. Is that
No; maybe 1 inch?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...> wrote:
say exactly where the creaking and groaning came from. Maybe just the
"newness" shaking out. Hence, the term "shakedown cruise."
spinnaker, I was blasting along so fast, my knotstick pinned at its
limit of 6 knots. How much faster do these things go? Hull speed ought
to be about 7, with the boat heeled and the overhangs buried.
wind got to 35.
> The Spruce mast of Zoella, my AS-29, does not seem to be undulyMy mast is Doug fir, and it does seem to hold up well. I can't really
> stressed by sailing under full sail in 15kn, gusting to 20, though the
> boat is mostly uncontrollable in the higher gusts. If your mast is
> Douglas Fir, as the plans call for, you have nothing to worry about
> here.
say exactly where the creaking and groaning came from. Maybe just the
"newness" shaking out. Hence, the term "shakedown cruise."
> Matt (last name?- builder of an AS-29 in Australia) said he15 kn of wind and he has the spinnaker up? Why? in 15 knots, without
> could sail off-wind under full main plus single-luff spinnaker in 15
> knots, but thought that was the practical limit.
>
spinnaker, I was blasting along so fast, my knotstick pinned at its
limit of 6 knots. How much faster do these things go? Hull speed ought
to be about 7, with the boat heeled and the overhangs buried.
> I've also been able to confirm what Matt once said that the AS-29 isI have no doubt. I think I'd be tied up at the marina long before the
> just barely controllable in 35kn wind under second reef; you should
> really be down to third at that point.
wind got to 35.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "freshairfiend" <jldalziel@e...> wrote:
angle past 16 degrees. Also, I haven't seen the need. It's fast enough
as it is.
around 600#. You must be sitting rather deep in the water to begin
with. My rough calc puts you at about 4.5" lower than DWL. Is that right?
> > As to heel angle, at the 16 degrees Bolger mentions, the windwardUp to this point, I've been a little chicken about pushing the heel
> > chine is right at the surface.
>
> The funny thing is, at deeper angles of heel the chine seems to stay
> right there. I suspect it has something to do with the heeled
> displacement curve, perhaps in combination with the hull's wave form.
angle past 16 degrees. Also, I haven't seen the need. It's fast enough
as it is.
> Granted, I am sailing at 10,000# loaded displacement...What are you carrying? 7,300 is the rated displacement, and the PPI is
around 600#. You must be sitting rather deep in the water to begin
with. My rough calc puts you at about 4.5" lower than DWL. Is that right?
Congrats on getting your AS-29 to pay attention... :-) You are getting
very good fuel mileage; I've averaged about 12 statute MPG at 6 knots
on an oldish Yamaha 9.9 while motoring the Gulf and Atlantic ICW's.
More comments interspersed below:
stressed by sailing under full sail in 15kn, gusting to 20, though the
boat is mostly uncontrollable in the higher gusts. If your mast is
Douglas Fir, as the plans call for, you have nothing to worry about
here. Matt (last name?- builder of an AS-29 in Australia) said he
could sail off-wind under full main plus single-luff spinnaker in 15
knots, but thought that was the practical limit.
I've also been able to confirm what Matt once said that the AS-29 is
just barely controllable in 35kn wind under second reef; you should
really be down to third at that point.
right there. I suspect it has something to do with the heeled
displacement curve, perhaps in combination with the hull's wave form.
Granted, I am sailing at 10,000# loaded displacement...
high-peaked as this one should really have a saddle rather than jaws.
I tie my parrel line so that it is a bit loose when the gaff is peaked
up; never had a problem with it except wear on the mast from the sides
of the jaws (yes, I grease them), but to me as to you it doesn't look
right somehow.
better sail shape.
controllability as from speed.
John Dalziel
very good fuel mileage; I've averaged about 12 statute MPG at 6 knots
on an oldish Yamaha 9.9 while motoring the Gulf and Atlantic ICW's.
More comments interspersed below:
> It's encouraging to see theThe Spruce mast of Zoella, my AS-29, does not seem to be unduly
> rig stand up to a bit of strain, but I want to increase that strain by
> degrees until I am sure how much it can take. I put a lot of time into
> the mast (not to mention $) and would not want to replace it.
stressed by sailing under full sail in 15kn, gusting to 20, though the
boat is mostly uncontrollable in the higher gusts. If your mast is
Douglas Fir, as the plans call for, you have nothing to worry about
here. Matt (last name?- builder of an AS-29 in Australia) said he
could sail off-wind under full main plus single-luff spinnaker in 15
knots, but thought that was the practical limit.
I've also been able to confirm what Matt once said that the AS-29 is
just barely controllable in 35kn wind under second reef; you should
really be down to third at that point.
>The funny thing is, at deeper angles of heel the chine seems to stay
> As to heel angle, at the 16 degrees Bolger mentions, the windward
> chine is right at the surface.
right there. I suspect it has something to do with the heeled
displacement curve, perhaps in combination with the hull's wave form.
Granted, I am sailing at 10,000# loaded displacement...
>I'd agree with this, and go further to suggest that a gaff as
> One thing I've noticed is that the gaff jaws seem a little short.
high-peaked as this one should really have a saddle rather than jaws.
I tie my parrel line so that it is a bit loose when the gaff is peaked
up; never had a problem with it except wear on the mast from the sides
of the jaws (yes, I grease them), but to me as to you it doesn't look
right somehow.
> I might also fabricate a metal "tongue" and fitI think this would be a good improvement, and should result in a
> it into a groove in the gaff. This would provide a stronger attachment
> for the halyard, and provide a flexible attachement for the head of
> the sail.
better sail shape.
>True in practice as well, though as much from the standpoint of
> All in all, I'm having a blast and looking forward to an extended
> cruise later this month.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I find your comments very interesting. It makes sense that a boat like
> > the AS-29 with very high form stability would sail best at a low angle
> > of heel.
controllability as from speed.
John Dalziel
Thanks for your comments.
I've owned a variety of boats over the years, glass and wood, from 8'
to 45', so I'm accustomed to some noises. It's encouraging to see the
rig stand up to a bit of strain, but I want to increase that strain by
degrees until I am sure how much it can take. I put a lot of time into
the mast (not to mention $) and would not want to replace it.
As to heel angle, at the 16 degrees Bolger mentions, the windward
chine is right at the surface. Any further heeling and the ballast
will be supported by air - not likely to be sustainable. The leeward
stripe is buried at that point and anyone sitting below will see only
water out the windows.
Once heeled, the box shape becomes more of a knife edge and the boat
gains speed rather spectacularly. The waterline gets longer as the
overhangs dig in. With the boards down, there seems to be very little
leeway. Once sails are trimmed to take strain off the tiller, she just
slices the water with little effort.
One thing I've noticed is that the gaff jaws seem a little short. With
the gaff peaked up, there seems to me not enough "wrap" around the
mast. The parrel holds fine so far, but it just doesn't look right.
During the off-season, I'm thinking of laminting a nice pair of curved
"horns" to substitute for the straight jaws specified. I'll make the
new ones a bit longer. I might also fabricate a metal "tongue" and fit
it into a groove in the gaff. This would provide a stronger attachment
for the halyard, and provide a flexible attachement for the head of
the sail.
All in all, I'm having a blast and looking forward to an extended
cruise later this month.
I've owned a variety of boats over the years, glass and wood, from 8'
to 45', so I'm accustomed to some noises. It's encouraging to see the
rig stand up to a bit of strain, but I want to increase that strain by
degrees until I am sure how much it can take. I put a lot of time into
the mast (not to mention $) and would not want to replace it.
As to heel angle, at the 16 degrees Bolger mentions, the windward
chine is right at the surface. Any further heeling and the ballast
will be supported by air - not likely to be sustainable. The leeward
stripe is buried at that point and anyone sitting below will see only
water out the windows.
Once heeled, the box shape becomes more of a knife edge and the boat
gains speed rather spectacularly. The waterline gets longer as the
overhangs dig in. With the boards down, there seems to be very little
leeway. Once sails are trimmed to take strain off the tiller, she just
slices the water with little effort.
One thing I've noticed is that the gaff jaws seem a little short. With
the gaff peaked up, there seems to me not enough "wrap" around the
mast. The parrel holds fine so far, but it just doesn't look right.
During the off-season, I'm thinking of laminting a nice pair of curved
"horns" to substitute for the straight jaws specified. I'll make the
new ones a bit longer. I might also fabricate a metal "tongue" and fit
it into a groove in the gaff. This would provide a stronger attachment
for the halyard, and provide a flexible attachement for the head of
the sail.
All in all, I'm having a blast and looking forward to an extended
cruise later this month.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...> wrote:
> >They put strain on the rig, and I could hear some
> >creaking and groaning.
>
> Wooden boats and gaff rigs are noisier than fiberglass boats and
> bermuda rigs, though they muffle water noises better. Just last week,
> I noticed the creaking of a catboat rig as it snuck by me in light
> wind. It's cracking sounds you have to watch out for.
>
> > The heel angle increased to right around the 16
> > degrees that Bolger lists as "Max power to carry sail."
>
> I find your comments very interesting. It makes sense that a boat like
> the AS-29 with very high form stability would sail best at a low angle
> of heel. The fancy racers usually generate max power at higher angles
> than 16 degrees. Twenty or twenty-five degrees of heel is pretty
> common in any kind of breeze.
>
> The intriguing contrast is to Bolger's earlier sharpies, e.g. Black
> Gauntlet. He cautioned potential builders that they sail at sharp and
> uncomfortable angles.
>
> I'm glad you are enjoying your boat. The learning process with a
> completely different boat is one of the joys of Bolger boating.
>
> Peter
>They put strain on the rig, and I could hear someWooden boats and gaff rigs are noisier than fiberglass boats and
>creaking and groaning.
bermuda rigs, though they muffle water noises better. Just last week,
I noticed the creaking of a catboat rig as it snuck by me in light
wind. It's cracking sounds you have to watch out for.
> The heel angle increased to right around the 16I find your comments very interesting. It makes sense that a boat like
> degrees that Bolger lists as "Max power to carry sail."
the AS-29 with very high form stability would sail best at a low angle
of heel. The fancy racers usually generate max power at higher angles
than 16 degrees. Twenty or twenty-five degrees of heel is pretty
common in any kind of breeze.
The intriguing contrast is to Bolger's earlier sharpies, e.g. Black
Gauntlet. He cautioned potential builders that they sail at sharp and
uncomfortable angles.
I'm glad you are enjoying your boat. The learning process with a
completely different boat is one of the joys of Bolger boating.
Peter
1) Motoring. We took a trip this weekend with the AS-29. Since there
was virtually no wind when we set out, we decided to test the gas
mileage. We motored a total of about 32.5 Nmiles. With the 9.9 hp
engine turning at about 3000 rpm, we averaged 5.5 knots and used a
total of 1.9 gal of gas. That works out to about 17 Nmpg, or about 1/3
gal/hour.
2) Reefing. A couple of times when I was out alone with the boat, I
had wind in the range of 10-15 kn. With main up full, the 10 kn breeze
was OK and the boat churned along at 6+ kn. But those 15 kn gusts got
a little scary. They put strain on the rig, and I could hear some
creaking and groaning. The heel angle increased to right around the 16
degrees that Bolger lists as "Max power to carry sail." She wouldn't
balance for self steering and I had to fight the tiller constantly.
As a result, I decided this week to tie in a reef and see how the boat
performed. I was again very pleasantly surprised. Even though the wind
didn't reach the 15 kn that would require the reef, the boat cruised
along at a steady 3.5 to 4 kn. Heel angle was greatly reduced, and the
ride got a lot less scary. No creaking and groaning and the rig
balanced out for self steering.
From now on, I'll think I'll start out with the reef in, and only if
the wind is really weak will I shake it out.
I'm not into racing, and I like sailing to be relaxing, not work. So
rolling along at a comfortable 4 kn is just fine.
The boat does not point as high as the racy "Bermuda" rigs, but it is
surprising how close it comes. She holds her own for speed as well.
The look on the faces of the sloop skippers as I roll by eating an
apple, no hand on tiller, is priceless.
was virtually no wind when we set out, we decided to test the gas
mileage. We motored a total of about 32.5 Nmiles. With the 9.9 hp
engine turning at about 3000 rpm, we averaged 5.5 knots and used a
total of 1.9 gal of gas. That works out to about 17 Nmpg, or about 1/3
gal/hour.
2) Reefing. A couple of times when I was out alone with the boat, I
had wind in the range of 10-15 kn. With main up full, the 10 kn breeze
was OK and the boat churned along at 6+ kn. But those 15 kn gusts got
a little scary. They put strain on the rig, and I could hear some
creaking and groaning. The heel angle increased to right around the 16
degrees that Bolger lists as "Max power to carry sail." She wouldn't
balance for self steering and I had to fight the tiller constantly.
As a result, I decided this week to tie in a reef and see how the boat
performed. I was again very pleasantly surprised. Even though the wind
didn't reach the 15 kn that would require the reef, the boat cruised
along at a steady 3.5 to 4 kn. Heel angle was greatly reduced, and the
ride got a lot less scary. No creaking and groaning and the rig
balanced out for self steering.
From now on, I'll think I'll start out with the reef in, and only if
the wind is really weak will I shake it out.
I'm not into racing, and I like sailing to be relaxing, not work. So
rolling along at a comfortable 4 kn is just fine.
The boat does not point as high as the racy "Bermuda" rigs, but it is
surprising how close it comes. She holds her own for speed as well.
The look on the faces of the sloop skippers as I roll by eating an
apple, no hand on tiller, is priceless.