Re: [bolger] Re: Building Topaz webcam
http://hallman.org/webcam/I/T86.jpg
Last night, about fours hours into it, I beveled
and smoothed the edges of the motormount.
I had hoped to get lots done this coming
weekend but the store where I buy MDO
plywood is temporarily out of stock.
Last night, about fours hours into it, I beveled
and smoothed the edges of the motormount.
I had hoped to get lots done this coming
weekend but the store where I buy MDO
plywood is temporarily out of stock.
> HowardThree hours into it, last night I spend an hour gluing
the two outer laminates of 1/2" plywood onto the
transom/motormount.
http://hallman.org/webcam/I/77p.jpg
So...not alot different than a conventional steel hulled yacht with
a teak house and decks, which has been done and is still being done
often, with excellent results.
Bill H.
a teak house and decks, which has been done and is still being done
often, with excellent results.
Bill H.
> Bill Hamm wrote:quite
> > Actually if you're careful with design, wood on steel can work
> > well. Take a look at the boats (yachts) built back at the turnof
> > the last century, there were many "composite" construction boatsbe
> > built with metal frames and wood planking that lasted many many
> > years without serious problems. With modern epoxies this could
> > done much easier keeping the wood at a constant moisture level.steel
> >
> > Btw, many of these old boats had bronze frames though iron and
> > were both used.talking
> >
> > Bill H.
>
>
> True, but those frames were inside the wooden skin; the OP was
> about a steel hull with timber superstructure (wood inside a steelhull
> eg cabinets, is fine too).
>
> Chris
"Work fascinates me: I could watch other people doing it for hours".
You're making real progresss Bruce.
Howard
You're making real progresss Bruce.
Howard
Bill Hamm wrote:
about a steel hull with timber superstructure (wood inside a steel hull
eg cabinets, is fine too).
Chris
> Actually if you're careful with design, wood on steel can work quiteTrue, but those frames were inside the wooden skin; the OP was talking
> well. Take a look at the boats (yachts) built back at the turn of
> the last century, there were many "composite" construction boats
> built with metal frames and wood planking that lasted many many
> years without serious problems. With modern epoxies this could be
> done much easier keeping the wood at a constant moisture level.
>
> Btw, many of these old boats had bronze frames though iron and steel
> were both used.
>
> Bill H.
about a steel hull with timber superstructure (wood inside a steel hull
eg cabinets, is fine too).
Chris
Actually if you're careful with design, wood on steel can work quite
well. Take a look at the boats (yachts) built back at the turn of
the last century, there were many "composite" construction boats
built with metal frames and wood planking that lasted many many
years without serious problems. With modern epoxies this could be
done much easier keeping the wood at a constant moisture level.
Btw, many of these old boats had bronze frames though iron and steel
were both used.
Bill H.
well. Take a look at the boats (yachts) built back at the turn of
the last century, there were many "composite" construction boats
built with metal frames and wood planking that lasted many many
years without serious problems. With modern epoxies this could be
done much easier keeping the wood at a constant moisture level.
Btw, many of these old boats had bronze frames though iron and steel
were both used.
Bill H.
> mwheeler911 wrote:but
>
>
> >
> > This is an interesting idea. My plan was to do the lofting and
> > cutting inside then do the assembly under one of those temporary
> > plastic covered garages. I know I could do a wood boat this way
> > keeping things warm enough for adhesives to work would be a bitof a
> > challenge in the winter here.of
> >
> > How about this idea. Take something like the MST. Build the hull
> > from steel and the deck/cabin out of wood. Seems you would get a
> > weight savings from the wood superstructure and have the speed
> > construction and outdoor building advantage of a steel hull.but is a
>
> Speaking from other people's experience :) - this SOUNDS great,
> disaster.with
>
> Dead trees combined with other dead trees, especially if coated
> expensive plastic products (epoxy) - excellent results.Leaky
>
> Sheets of refined metallic ores melted to other similar sheets -
> excellent results (especially if coated in the expensive plastic)
>
> Timber on steel - differential rates of expansion => leaky joints.
> Joints and soggy wood on metal => corrosion problems. Potentiallywhom
> expensive disaster and/or high maintainance.
>
> Just paraphrasing the guys on oragamiboats (folded metal), some of
> have tried this to get nice teak decks or wooden wheelhouses ontheir
> nice cheap, quck, strong metal hulls.
>
> Chris
In a message dated 9/13/2005 8:57:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
cml@...writes:
Timber on steel - differential rates of expansion => leaky joints. Leaky
Joints and soggy wood on metal => corrosion problems. Potentially
expensive disaster and/or high maintainance.
Just paraphrasing the guys on oragamiboats (folded metal), some of whom
have tried this to get nice teak decks or wooden wheelhouses on their
nice cheap, quck, strong metal hulls.
Chris
Probably very true....though I would think if you DESIGNED in the fact that
expansion rates would be different you could make it work...but if you are
just hoping to force things to stay together and sealant/caulking to do the rest
it aint gonna work...
For example...imagine a wooden boat...deck/wheelhouse-cabin/internal
framing....ie just a wooden boat without the hull surface......drop this assembly
into a metal hull...inside the metal hull you have welded tabs where you at
stategic places you can attach/bolt the wooden part of the boat to metal
hull....but now the attachment points have to have enough flex allow for thermal
expansion/contraction.....also the deck sits a fair distance ABOVE the edge of
the metal hull and has a decent lip that extends out past the edge/side of
the hull....if that gap is of sufficient size and is filled with the correct
filler material it would allow for expansion/contraction...but again thats
something you are going to have engineer and crunch the numbers if there is to be
much chance of success....anyway you get the idea....
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cml@...writes:
Timber on steel - differential rates of expansion => leaky joints. Leaky
Joints and soggy wood on metal => corrosion problems. Potentially
expensive disaster and/or high maintainance.
Just paraphrasing the guys on oragamiboats (folded metal), some of whom
have tried this to get nice teak decks or wooden wheelhouses on their
nice cheap, quck, strong metal hulls.
Chris
Probably very true....though I would think if you DESIGNED in the fact that
expansion rates would be different you could make it work...but if you are
just hoping to force things to stay together and sealant/caulking to do the rest
it aint gonna work...
For example...imagine a wooden boat...deck/wheelhouse-cabin/internal
framing....ie just a wooden boat without the hull surface......drop this assembly
into a metal hull...inside the metal hull you have welded tabs where you at
stategic places you can attach/bolt the wooden part of the boat to metal
hull....but now the attachment points have to have enough flex allow for thermal
expansion/contraction.....also the deck sits a fair distance ABOVE the edge of
the metal hull and has a decent lip that extends out past the edge/side of
the hull....if that gap is of sufficient size and is filled with the correct
filler material it would allow for expansion/contraction...but again thats
something you are going to have engineer and crunch the numbers if there is to be
much chance of success....anyway you get the idea....
take care
Blll
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mwheeler911 wrote:
disaster.
Dead trees combined with other dead trees, especially if coated with
expensive plastic products (epoxy) - excellent results.
Sheets of refined metallic ores melted to other similar sheets -
excellent results (especially if coated in the expensive plastic)
Timber on steel - differential rates of expansion => leaky joints. Leaky
Joints and soggy wood on metal => corrosion problems. Potentially
expensive disaster and/or high maintainance.
Just paraphrasing the guys on oragamiboats (folded metal), some of whom
have tried this to get nice teak decks or wooden wheelhouses on their
nice cheap, quck, strong metal hulls.
Chris
>Speaking from other people's experience :) - this SOUNDS great, but is a
> This is an interesting idea. My plan was to do the lofting and
> cutting inside then do the assembly under one of those temporary
> plastic covered garages. I know I could do a wood boat this way but
> keeping things warm enough for adhesives to work would be a bit of a
> challenge in the winter here.
>
> How about this idea. Take something like the MST. Build the hull
> from steel and the deck/cabin out of wood. Seems you would get a
> weight savings from the wood superstructure and have the speed of
> construction and outdoor building advantage of a steel hull.
disaster.
Dead trees combined with other dead trees, especially if coated with
expensive plastic products (epoxy) - excellent results.
Sheets of refined metallic ores melted to other similar sheets -
excellent results (especially if coated in the expensive plastic)
Timber on steel - differential rates of expansion => leaky joints. Leaky
Joints and soggy wood on metal => corrosion problems. Potentially
expensive disaster and/or high maintainance.
Just paraphrasing the guys on oragamiboats (folded metal), some of whom
have tried this to get nice teak decks or wooden wheelhouses on their
nice cheap, quck, strong metal hulls.
Chris
Work has begun on my Topaz Spyder.
Two hours into it I am now glueing up
the laminations for the motormount.
http://hallman.org/webcam/I/T30.jpg
http://hallman.org/webcam/I/T13.jpg
Two hours into it I am now glueing up
the laminations for the motormount.
http://hallman.org/webcam/I/T30.jpg
http://hallman.org/webcam/I/T13.jpg
> > With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in oneThere is a steel cruise boat on Lake Winnipesaukee in NH that was
> > section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
> > two together when it both halves are completed. They
> > did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
originally on Lake Champlain. In the 1920's they cut it into about 18
or 20 10-foot slices and hauled it on flatbed railcars to NH. They
also added a new section in the middle to make it a longer boat. I
think it is 230' long now.
In WWII the US gov't took its engine for war requiremnts. At the end
of the war the engine could not be located so they were given the
Fairbanks-Morse submarine diesel that is in it today. It is direct
drive and you crank it with compressed air in either forward or
reverse rotation depending on which way you want to go. Full speed is
about 300 rpm.
Yes. Keel, hull up to main sheer, and aft deck are steel. Raised sheer
forward and house are plywood, meant to be easily removable in case
they rot. House sole also looks like it's ply.
Howard
forward and house are plywood, meant to be easily removable in case
they rot. House sole also looks like it's ply.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Hugo Tyson <hhetyson@y...> wrote:
>
> The cabin is already specified as plywood to reduce weight if I
remember correctly!
"How about this idea. Take something like the MST. Build the hull
from steel and the deck/cabin out of wood. Seems you would get a
weight savings from the wood superstructure and have the speed of
construction and outdoor building advantage of a steel hull."
The cabin is already specified as plywood to reduce weight if I remember correctly!
Hugo Tyson, Launnceston, Tasmania, Australia.
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
from steel and the deck/cabin out of wood. Seems you would get a
weight savings from the wood superstructure and have the speed of
construction and outdoor building advantage of a steel hull."
The cabin is already specified as plywood to reduce weight if I remember correctly!
Hugo Tyson, Launnceston, Tasmania, Australia.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
cutting inside then do the assembly under one of those temporary
plastic covered garages. I know I could do a wood boat this way but
keeping things warm enough for adhesives to work would be a bit of a
challenge in the winter here.
How about this idea. Take something like the MST. Build the hull
from steel and the deck/cabin out of wood. Seems you would get a
weight savings from the wood superstructure and have the speed of
construction and outdoor building advantage of a steel hull.
As far as aircraft cluster welds it a very bad idea to weld these
with a MIG. A mig weld starts cool at the beginning of the bead and
heat increases as you weld. In a joint that has a short bead made
from 4130 or other specialized steel this can cause some problems
with even penetration. The properties of these types of steel are
also affected by heating and cooling temps and rates that adds
another issue to the strength of the joint. As I recall (although it
has been years since I have put a wrench to an airplane) that MIG
welding is not an FAA approved method for welding aircraft tubing in
a critical application.
On the Liberty ships, they were using a different type of steel with
many added factors. The temp of the North Atlantic had a great
effect as well as the sheer weight of the vessel and the pounding of
heavy seas. Those failures were some expensive lessons in
engineering!
Thanks for all of your input. Seems like there is a pretty
knowledgeable and helpful bunch of people here!
> AmThis is an interesting idea. My plan was to do the lofting and
> > limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull
> > I could go longer
> > and build outside (would love to have something
> > bigger).
>
> While one can weld and boatbuild outside, it is a
> drag.
>
> With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
> section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
> two together when it both halves are completed. They
> did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
>
cutting inside then do the assembly under one of those temporary
plastic covered garages. I know I could do a wood boat this way but
keeping things warm enough for adhesives to work would be a bit of a
challenge in the winter here.
How about this idea. Take something like the MST. Build the hull
from steel and the deck/cabin out of wood. Seems you would get a
weight savings from the wood superstructure and have the speed of
construction and outdoor building advantage of a steel hull.
As far as aircraft cluster welds it a very bad idea to weld these
with a MIG. A mig weld starts cool at the beginning of the bead and
heat increases as you weld. In a joint that has a short bead made
from 4130 or other specialized steel this can cause some problems
with even penetration. The properties of these types of steel are
also affected by heating and cooling temps and rates that adds
another issue to the strength of the joint. As I recall (although it
has been years since I have put a wrench to an airplane) that MIG
welding is not an FAA approved method for welding aircraft tubing in
a critical application.
On the Liberty ships, they were using a different type of steel with
many added factors. The temp of the North Atlantic had a great
effect as well as the sheer weight of the vessel and the pounding of
heavy seas. Those failures were some expensive lessons in
engineering!
Thanks for all of your input. Seems like there is a pretty
knowledgeable and helpful bunch of people here!
LOL. Quite a few people like that here and in other groups, me
included.
Howard
included.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "eric green" <ericgreen@A...> wrote:
> I am an expert at
> telling others what to do :-).
Don�t get me wrong, I am not a great welder either. But I am an expert at
telling others what to do :-).
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Roger Derby
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
Absolutely correct. The problem is that most of us are not structural
engineers experienced in weld joint design. I'd suggest that this even
includes most naval architects. My own welding skills are just about
adequate to stick together a mailbox stand.
It's also true that the homebuilt aircraft problems involved 4130 steel
tubing, but the "little bit of research" becomes a major project when you
don't know the language; e.g. 4130 vs. A36. Obvious to you, but tough for
us electronikers and wood butchers. We're probably not even up to the
knowledge level extant in Kaiser's design group.
Roger
derbyrm@...
HYPERLINK
"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
telling others what to do :-).
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Roger Derby
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 8:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
Absolutely correct. The problem is that most of us are not structural
engineers experienced in weld joint design. I'd suggest that this even
includes most naval architects. My own welding skills are just about
adequate to stick together a mailbox stand.
It's also true that the homebuilt aircraft problems involved 4130 steel
tubing, but the "little bit of research" becomes a major project when you
don't know the language; e.g. 4130 vs. A36. Obvious to you, but tough for
us electronikers and wood butchers. We're probably not even up to the
knowledge level extant in Kaiser's design group.
Roger
derbyrm@...
HYPERLINK
"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "eric green" <ericgreen@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
As a practicing structural engineer who designs welded steel structures for
seismic applications, let me assure you that while it is possible to design
a brittle weld, it is also possible to design a butt weld that is stronger
and more ductile than the base metal. What matters is the type of steel,
type of rod, weld design and weld procedure. Common A36 steel, which is what
many boats are made of, is about as forgiving a material as exist when it
comes to designing welded joints, esp,. when you are not trying to weld 3"
thick sections of high strength steel, like we do on columns for tall
buildings.
My point is, if you do a little research, there is no problem with welding
two halves of a boat together. It is very common to extend the length of
ships by cutting them in half and welding in a new section. Google
"Norwegian Dream" for an example. One caveat, I have no idea what happens
when you deal with very thin sections (gage metal) exposed to fatigue. We do
not design these for fatigue and I have never looked into it.
The liberty ships failed because of a lack of understanding of ductile to
brittle transition temperature and the effect of stress concentrators. This
is not a problem today if you know what you are doing.
Eric
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Absolutely correct. The problem is that most of us are not structural
engineers experienced in weld joint design. I'd suggest that this even
includes most naval architects. My own welding skills are just about
adequate to stick together a mailbox stand.
It's also true that the homebuilt aircraft problems involved 4130 steel
tubing, but the "little bit of research" becomes a major project when you
don't know the language; e.g. 4130 vs. A36. Obvious to you, but tough for
us electronikers and wood butchers. We're probably not even up to the
knowledge level extant in Kaiser's design group.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
engineers experienced in weld joint design. I'd suggest that this even
includes most naval architects. My own welding skills are just about
adequate to stick together a mailbox stand.
It's also true that the homebuilt aircraft problems involved 4130 steel
tubing, but the "little bit of research" becomes a major project when you
don't know the language; e.g. 4130 vs. A36. Obvious to you, but tough for
us electronikers and wood butchers. We're probably not even up to the
knowledge level extant in Kaiser's design group.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "eric green" <ericgreen@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
As a practicing structural engineer who designs welded steel structures for
seismic applications, let me assure you that while it is possible to design
a brittle weld, it is also possible to design a butt weld that is stronger
and more ductile than the base metal. What matters is the type of steel,
type of rod, weld design and weld procedure. Common A36 steel, which is what
many boats are made of, is about as forgiving a material as exist when it
comes to designing welded joints, esp,. when you are not trying to weld 3"
thick sections of high strength steel, like we do on columns for tall
buildings.
My point is, if you do a little research, there is no problem with welding
two halves of a boat together. It is very common to extend the length of
ships by cutting them in half and welding in a new section. Google
"Norwegian Dream" for an example. One caveat, I have no idea what happens
when you deal with very thin sections (gage metal) exposed to fatigue. We do
not design these for fatigue and I have never looked into it.
The liberty ships failed because of a lack of understanding of ductile to
brittle transition temperature and the effect of stress concentrators. This
is not a problem today if you know what you are doing.
Eric
As a practicing structural engineer who designs welded steel structures for
seismic applications, let me assure you that while it is possible to design
a brittle weld, it is also possible to design a butt weld that is stronger
and more ductile than the base metal. What matters is the type of steel,
type of rod, weld design and weld procedure. Common A36 steel, which is what
many boats are made of, is about as forgiving a material as exist when it
comes to designing welded joints, esp,. when you are not trying to weld 3�
thick sections of high strength steel, like we do on columns for tall
buildings.
My point is, if you do a little research, there is no problem with welding
two halves of a boat together. It is very common to extend the length of
ships by cutting them in half and welding in a new section. Google
�Norwegian Dream� for an example. One caveat, I have no idea what happens
when you deal with very thin sections (gage metal) exposed to fatigue. We do
not design these for fatigue and I have never looked into it.
The liberty ships failed because of a lack of understanding of ductile to
brittle transition temperature and the effect of stress concentrators. This
is not a problem today if you know what you are doing.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
lon wells
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:02 AM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
There have been great advances in welding rod technology in the last sixty
years since the infancy of modern production welding and modular
construction is standard industrial practice it today's shipbuilding
industies.
While a few of the liberty Ships did fail due to improper weld joint design,
poor welding materials, procedurues the vast majority of the total 2,710
Liberty Ships that were built during the war years were a major factor in
suppling our victorious troops. ..."The record for building a "Liberty Ship"
from keel laying to launching was set by the Permanente Metals Corporation
Yard No 2 at Richmond, Virginia, when they built the "U.S.S. Robert E Peary"
in four days & fiteen and a half hours, in November 1942"... Every Liberty
Ship built used modular construction.
So it could be done. Industry practice would be to have excess on one module
and scribe the joint and fit. While building the modules leave the last 18"
from the weld joint free from weld and weld out the stiffeners after final
fit of the weld joint. This will allow you to move the stiffeners for final
fit.
While you could do the modular thing you might want to give thought to
building a movable working cover made from PVC and poly tarp and do the work
outside. While the boat halves could be fit without distorsion, it would be
next to impossible to weld the two boat halfs made from light sheet metal
together without great weld distortion. I am afraid you would not be happy
with the final results of your boat.
Lon
Roger Derby <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Careful here. The early production Liberty ships were notorious for
breaking in half in the North Atlantic.
Similarly, the Thorp T-18 experimental homebuilt aircraft had trouble with
the welded cluster joint which was the heart of the engine mount/landing
gear assembly IF it was done with MIG/TIG. Those done with a gas flame
didn't have the sudden step change in heat treatment so they didn't develop
the fatal stress cracks.
Thirty years ago the various highway departments around the country had a
LOT of trouble with bridges built of a new, high strength steel. Where it
was welded, it failed.
When you weld steel, you replace the cold rolled, heat treated, material
with cast steel -- much weaker stuff. Design of a weld joint is not that
simple for a highly stressed structure.
Roger
derbyrm@...
HYPERLINK
"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
seismic applications, let me assure you that while it is possible to design
a brittle weld, it is also possible to design a butt weld that is stronger
and more ductile than the base metal. What matters is the type of steel,
type of rod, weld design and weld procedure. Common A36 steel, which is what
many boats are made of, is about as forgiving a material as exist when it
comes to designing welded joints, esp,. when you are not trying to weld 3�
thick sections of high strength steel, like we do on columns for tall
buildings.
My point is, if you do a little research, there is no problem with welding
two halves of a boat together. It is very common to extend the length of
ships by cutting them in half and welding in a new section. Google
�Norwegian Dream� for an example. One caveat, I have no idea what happens
when you deal with very thin sections (gage metal) exposed to fatigue. We do
not design these for fatigue and I have never looked into it.
The liberty ships failed because of a lack of understanding of ductile to
brittle transition temperature and the effect of stress concentrators. This
is not a problem today if you know what you are doing.
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
lon wells
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 2:02 AM
To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
There have been great advances in welding rod technology in the last sixty
years since the infancy of modern production welding and modular
construction is standard industrial practice it today's shipbuilding
industies.
While a few of the liberty Ships did fail due to improper weld joint design,
poor welding materials, procedurues the vast majority of the total 2,710
Liberty Ships that were built during the war years were a major factor in
suppling our victorious troops. ..."The record for building a "Liberty Ship"
from keel laying to launching was set by the Permanente Metals Corporation
Yard No 2 at Richmond, Virginia, when they built the "U.S.S. Robert E Peary"
in four days & fiteen and a half hours, in November 1942"... Every Liberty
Ship built used modular construction.
So it could be done. Industry practice would be to have excess on one module
and scribe the joint and fit. While building the modules leave the last 18"
from the weld joint free from weld and weld out the stiffeners after final
fit of the weld joint. This will allow you to move the stiffeners for final
fit.
While you could do the modular thing you might want to give thought to
building a movable working cover made from PVC and poly tarp and do the work
outside. While the boat halves could be fit without distorsion, it would be
next to impossible to weld the two boat halfs made from light sheet metal
together without great weld distortion. I am afraid you would not be happy
with the final results of your boat.
Lon
Roger Derby <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Careful here. The early production Liberty ships were notorious for
breaking in half in the North Atlantic.
Similarly, the Thorp T-18 experimental homebuilt aircraft had trouble with
the welded cluster joint which was the heart of the engine mount/landing
gear assembly IF it was done with MIG/TIG. Those done with a gas flame
didn't have the sudden step change in heat treatment so they didn't develop
the fatal stress cracks.
Thirty years ago the various highway departments around the country had a
LOT of trouble with bridges built of a new, high strength steel. Where it
was welded, it failed.
When you weld steel, you replace the cold rolled, heat treated, material
with cast steel -- much weaker stuff. Design of a weld joint is not that
simple for a highly stressed structure.
Roger
derbyrm@...
HYPERLINK
"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm"http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Smith" <pbs@...>
>> limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull
>> I could go longer and build outside (would love to
>> have something bigger).
>
> While one can weld and boatbuild outside, it is a
> drag.
>
> With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
> section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
> two together when it both halves are completed. They
> did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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There have been great advances in welding rod technology in the last sixty years since the infancy of modern production welding and modular construction is standard industrial practice it today's shipbuilding industies.
While a few of the liberty Ships did fail due to improper weld joint design, poor welding materials, procedurues the vast majority of the total 2,710 Liberty Ships that were built during the war years were a major factor in suppling our victorious troops. ..."The record for building a "Liberty Ship" from keel laying to launching was set by the Permanente Metals Corporation Yard No 2 at Richmond, Virginia, when they built the "U.S.S. Robert E Peary" in four days & fiteen and a half hours, in November 1942"... Every Liberty Ship built used modular construction.
So it could be done. Industry practice would be to have excess on one module and scribe the joint and fit. While building the modules leave the last 18" from the weld joint free from weld and weld out the stiffeners after final fit of the weld joint. This will allow you to move the stiffeners for final fit.
While you could do the modular thing you might want to give thought to building a movable working cover made from PVC and poly tarp and do the work outside. While the boat halves could be fit without distorsion, it would be next to impossible to weld the two boat halfs made from light sheet metal together without great weld distortion. I am afraid you would not be happy with the final results of your boat.
Lon
Roger Derby <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Careful here. The early production Liberty ships were notorious for
breaking in half in the North Atlantic.
Similarly, the Thorp T-18 experimental homebuilt aircraft had trouble with
the welded cluster joint which was the heart of the engine mount/landing
gear assembly IF it was done with MIG/TIG. Those done with a gas flame
didn't have the sudden step change in heat treatment so they didn't develop
the fatal stress cracks.
Thirty years ago the various highway departments around the country had a
LOT of trouble with bridges built of a new, high strength steel. Where it
was welded, it failed.
When you weld steel, you replace the cold rolled, heat treated, material
with cast steel -- much weaker stuff. Design of a weld joint is not that
simple for a highly stressed structure.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
While a few of the liberty Ships did fail due to improper weld joint design, poor welding materials, procedurues the vast majority of the total 2,710 Liberty Ships that were built during the war years were a major factor in suppling our victorious troops. ..."The record for building a "Liberty Ship" from keel laying to launching was set by the Permanente Metals Corporation Yard No 2 at Richmond, Virginia, when they built the "U.S.S. Robert E Peary" in four days & fiteen and a half hours, in November 1942"... Every Liberty Ship built used modular construction.
So it could be done. Industry practice would be to have excess on one module and scribe the joint and fit. While building the modules leave the last 18" from the weld joint free from weld and weld out the stiffeners after final fit of the weld joint. This will allow you to move the stiffeners for final fit.
While you could do the modular thing you might want to give thought to building a movable working cover made from PVC and poly tarp and do the work outside. While the boat halves could be fit without distorsion, it would be next to impossible to weld the two boat halfs made from light sheet metal together without great weld distortion. I am afraid you would not be happy with the final results of your boat.
Lon
Roger Derby <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Careful here. The early production Liberty ships were notorious for
breaking in half in the North Atlantic.
Similarly, the Thorp T-18 experimental homebuilt aircraft had trouble with
the welded cluster joint which was the heart of the engine mount/landing
gear assembly IF it was done with MIG/TIG. Those done with a gas flame
didn't have the sudden step change in heat treatment so they didn't develop
the fatal stress cracks.
Thirty years ago the various highway departments around the country had a
LOT of trouble with bridges built of a new, high strength steel. Where it
was welded, it failed.
When you weld steel, you replace the cold rolled, heat treated, material
with cast steel -- much weaker stuff. Design of a weld joint is not that
simple for a highly stressed structure.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Smith" <pbs@...>
>> limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull
>> I could go longer and build outside (would love to
>> have something bigger).
>
> While one can weld and boatbuild outside, it is a
> drag.
>
> With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
> section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
> two together when it both halves are completed. They
> did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On 9/9/05, John Bell <smallboatdesigner@...> wrote:
No boat yet. I am presently upgrading the
shop lighting. I got material to build the
transom now. Plan on getting some MDO
plywood next week. I am still waiting on
answers of a few questions asked of PCB.
As I am the first to build the Spyder, I found
a couple of details on the plans/key which
need to be cleared up.
> I always figured you were taller... <grin>Reality hurts. :)
>
>
> Hey! Where did you go?
No boat yet. I am presently upgrading the
shop lighting. I got material to build the
transom now. Plan on getting some MDO
plywood next week. I am still waiting on
answers of a few questions asked of PCB.
As I am the first to build the Spyder, I found
a couple of details on the plans/key which
need to be cleared up.
I always figured you were taller... <grin>
Hey! Where did you go?
Hey! Where did you go?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] Building Topaz webcam
|http://hallman.org/webcam/
|
| I realized that my shop needed a better
| 'thinking chair', also known as a
| 'moaning chair'. That being a comfortable
| place to sit and contemplate the problem(s)
| at hand. So, I went out and tried a number
| of chairs at Ikea, and chose the most
| comfortable of the lot. Also, I cleaned
| out my shop, and established a clean
| comfortable 'well lit' corner. Part of this
| involved rewiring, including my 'home
| network'. This is a long winded way
| of saying, that now, I have a webcam
| view of my shop. [Be aware that
| watching webcams is kind of like
| watching paint dry, but none-the-less
| you can now monitor my progress on
| Topaz.] My goal, and many of you know
| is to be launched by next summer.
|
|
|
| Bolger rules!!!
| - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
| - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
| - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
| - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
| - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
| - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ah, Bruce? A couple of puzzlements.
Shouldn't one expect to see something boatlike in the image?
Perhaps the 10 second update interval is a tad optimistic. (If I were doing
one I'd opt for several day intervals.)
Nice idea though.
On a constructive note, I've found the world is neater now that my epoxy
resin and hardener jugs sit in a cardboard tray (the bottom 2" of a
cardboard moving box).
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
Shouldn't one expect to see something boatlike in the image?
Perhaps the 10 second update interval is a tad optimistic. (If I were doing
one I'd opt for several day intervals.)
Nice idea though.
On a constructive note, I've found the world is neater now that my epoxy
resin and hardener jugs sit in a cardboard tray (the bottom 2" of a
cardboard moving box).
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>http://hallman.org/webcam/
>
> I realized that my shop needed a better
> 'thinking chair', also known as a
> 'moaning chair'. That being a comfortable
> place to sit and contemplate the problem(s)
> at hand. So, I went out and tried a number
> of chairs at Ikea, and chose the most
> comfortable of the lot. Also, I cleaned
> out my shop, and established a clean
> comfortable 'well lit' corner. Part of this
> involved rewiring, including my 'home
> network'. This is a long winded way
> of saying, that now, I have a webcam
> view of my shop. [Be aware that
> watching webcams is kind of like
> watching paint dry, but none-the-less
> you can now monitor my progress on
> Topaz.] My goal, and many of you know
> is to be launched by next summer.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hello Bruce,
That thinking chair may well be the most important piece of equipment in
your shop!!! The first thing my father gave me when I started doing
wood-work 65 yrs. ago was an old walnut bar-stool that was high enough to
observe what he was doing. 65 yrs. later my grand-son is perched on that
same stool learning boat restoration interspersed with essential
life-skills. I just hope you chose your thinking chair with the same care my
father chose mine.
Bob
That thinking chair may well be the most important piece of equipment in
your shop!!! The first thing my father gave me when I started doing
wood-work 65 yrs. ago was an old walnut bar-stool that was high enough to
observe what he was doing. 65 yrs. later my grand-son is perched on that
same stool learning boat restoration interspersed with essential
life-skills. I just hope you chose your thinking chair with the same care my
father chose mine.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:45 PM
Subject: [bolger] Building Topaz webcam
>http://hallman.org/webcam/
>
> I realized that my shop needed a better
> 'thinking chair', also known as a
> 'moaning chair'. That being a comfortable
> place to sit and contemplate the problem(s)
> at hand. So, I went out and tried a number
> of chairs at Ikea, and chose the most
> comfortable of the lot. Also, I cleaned
> out my shop, and established a clean
> comfortable 'well lit' corner. Part of this
> involved rewiring, including my 'home
> network'. This is a long winded way
> of saying, that now, I have a webcam
> view of my shop. [Be aware that
> watching webcams is kind of like
> watching paint dry, but none-the-less
> you can now monitor my progress on
> Topaz.] My goal, and many of you know
> is to be launched by next summer.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
http://hallman.org/webcam/
I realized that my shop needed a better
'thinking chair', also known as a
'moaning chair'. That being a comfortable
place to sit and contemplate the problem(s)
at hand. So, I went out and tried a number
of chairs at Ikea, and chose the most
comfortable of the lot. Also, I cleaned
out my shop, and established a clean
comfortable 'well lit' corner. Part of this
involved rewiring, including my 'home
network'. This is a long winded way
of saying, that now, I have a webcam
view of my shop. [Be aware that
watching webcams is kind of like
watching paint dry, but none-the-less
you can now monitor my progress on
Topaz.] My goal, and many of you know
is to be launched by next summer.
I realized that my shop needed a better
'thinking chair', also known as a
'moaning chair'. That being a comfortable
place to sit and contemplate the problem(s)
at hand. So, I went out and tried a number
of chairs at Ikea, and chose the most
comfortable of the lot. Also, I cleaned
out my shop, and established a clean
comfortable 'well lit' corner. Part of this
involved rewiring, including my 'home
network'. This is a long winded way
of saying, that now, I have a webcam
view of my shop. [Be aware that
watching webcams is kind of like
watching paint dry, but none-the-less
you can now monitor my progress on
Topaz.] My goal, and many of you know
is to be launched by next summer.
Somewhere I have a wonderful old photograph of work going on the Baldwin
Locomotive Works. Six guys with sledge hammers are addressing a thick sheet
of steel while the master boilermaker uses a long wand to indicate where to
pound. All the men are wearing three piece suits and hats.
Few locomotives showed kinks in their boilers.
Sledgehammers are cheap.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
Locomotive Works. Six guys with sledge hammers are addressing a thick sheet
of steel while the master boilermaker uses a long wand to indicate where to
pound. All the men are wearing three piece suits and hats.
Few locomotives showed kinks in their boilers.
Sledgehammers are cheap.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Stephenson" <stephensonhw@...>
> It strikes me that for a tack-and-weld or stitch-and-glue or tack-and-
> tape boat built by cutting out panels and joining them together,
> building in two halves could create a problem with fairness, so that
> the place where the two halves were joined would be visible when they
> were attached to each other. A fat hull like MST could have more of a
> potential for an abrupt change in shape to be evident than a long slim
> one.
>
> I'm not sure whether MST is meant to be built up from pre-cut panels,
> although it would seem a logical way to do it. One of the hull-design
> computer programs could be work out panel shapes.
>
> Howard
>
>
>> > With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
>> > section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
>> > two together when it both halves are completed.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
It strikes me that for a tack-and-weld or stitch-and-glue or tack-and-
tape boat built by cutting out panels and joining them together,
building in two halves could create a problem with fairness, so that
the place where the two halves were joined would be visible when they
were attached to each other. A fat hull like MST could have more of a
potential for an abrupt change in shape to be evident than a long slim
one.
I'm not sure whether MST is meant to be built up from pre-cut panels,
although it would seem a logical way to do it. One of the hull-design
computer programs could be work out panel shapes.
Howard
tape boat built by cutting out panels and joining them together,
building in two halves could create a problem with fairness, so that
the place where the two halves were joined would be visible when they
were attached to each other. A fat hull like MST could have more of a
potential for an abrupt change in shape to be evident than a long slim
one.
I'm not sure whether MST is meant to be built up from pre-cut panels,
although it would seem a logical way to do it. One of the hull-design
computer programs could be work out panel shapes.
Howard
> > With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
> > section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
> > two together when it both halves are completed.
Careful here. The early production Liberty ships were notorious for
breaking in half in the North Atlantic.
Similarly, the Thorp T-18 experimental homebuilt aircraft had trouble with
the welded cluster joint which was the heart of the engine mount/landing
gear assembly IF it was done with MIG/TIG. Those done with a gas flame
didn't have the sudden step change in heat treatment so they didn't develop
the fatal stress cracks.
Thirty years ago the various highway departments around the country had a
LOT of trouble with bridges built of a new, high strength steel. Where it
was welded, it failed.
When you weld steel, you replace the cold rolled, heat treated, material
with cast steel -- much weaker stuff. Design of a weld joint is not that
simple for a highly stressed structure.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
breaking in half in the North Atlantic.
Similarly, the Thorp T-18 experimental homebuilt aircraft had trouble with
the welded cluster joint which was the heart of the engine mount/landing
gear assembly IF it was done with MIG/TIG. Those done with a gas flame
didn't have the sudden step change in heat treatment so they didn't develop
the fatal stress cracks.
Thirty years ago the various highway departments around the country had a
LOT of trouble with bridges built of a new, high strength steel. Where it
was welded, it failed.
When you weld steel, you replace the cold rolled, heat treated, material
with cast steel -- much weaker stuff. Design of a weld joint is not that
simple for a highly stressed structure.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Smith" <pbs@...>
>> limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull
>> I could go longer and build outside (would love to
>> have something bigger).
>
> While one can weld and boatbuild outside, it is a
> drag.
>
> With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
> section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
> two together when it both halves are completed. They
> did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
Am
drag.
With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
two together when it both halves are completed. They
did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
Of course you don't have to divide it exactly in half,
you could choose a station of convenience.
If it were me, I think I'd cut out a pair of templates
for the station of choice using a plasma cutter. The
templates would assure me that I had the measurements
the same. Heck they could even be right. The templates
would also lend a great deal of rigidity to the bow
and stern sections as they were being manhandled in
the shop.
Then weld the two sections together and cut out the
templates. You might even leave an inch or two of
template in the boat as a rib.
An advantage of this is that you'd have a whole lot
more room to work around your halves than you would
around a longer vessel.
Phil Smith
> limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hullWhile one can weld and boatbuild outside, it is a
> I could go longer
> and build outside (would love to have something
> bigger).
drag.
With a steel boat one could build the front 12' in one
section and the back 12' in another and then weld the
two together when it both halves are completed. They
did this with Liberty Ships in WW II.
Of course you don't have to divide it exactly in half,
you could choose a station of convenience.
If it were me, I think I'd cut out a pair of templates
for the station of choice using a plasma cutter. The
templates would assure me that I had the measurements
the same. Heck they could even be right. The templates
would also lend a great deal of rigidity to the bow
and stern sections as they were being manhandled in
the shop.
Then weld the two sections together and cut out the
templates. You might even leave an inch or two of
template in the boat as a rib.
An advantage of this is that you'd have a whole lot
more room to work around your halves than you would
around a longer vessel.
Phil Smith
The MST started out as a cartoon for Small Boat Journal, but I believe
it is a finished design and I recently saw a picture of one, can't
remember where. Duckworks maybe?
HJ
Howard Stephenson wrote:
it is a finished design and I recently saw a picture of one, can't
remember where. Duckworks maybe?
HJ
Howard Stephenson wrote:
>MST is 15'11" x 7'9" x 3' with 5,360 lb. displacement and only
>slightly less than that as its trailer weight. Full plans would be
>available from Phil Bolger and Friends. The book shows plenty of
>detail including the lines and offsets (but no panel shapes). If you
>really want a small tug it might suit your need, but it doesn't strike
>me as being much of a pleasure boat -- although I suppose that depends
>on how you take your pleasure.
>
>If you can work in aluminum, there is Bolger's Portland Skiff, 18' x
>6'8", a planing boat meant to be powered by 50 hp outboard. It has the
>same simple hull shape as the plywood Diablo, see:
>
>http://www.instantboats.com/diablo.htm
>
>Currach can be seen in Bolger's "30-Odd Boats". It's an 1/8" steel
>boat, 24 x 7'7" with a displacement designed to vary between 2,500lb
>light (somewhere near trailer weight) to 6,400 lb heavy. The write-
>up's a little vague about suitable (outboard) power but to my eye it
>would run quite well at semi-planing speed with a smallish engine. As
>designed it's an open boat, but there would be scope for adding a
>cuddy.
>
>At:
>http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/
>
>... you'll see a few plans for sale for smallish steel boats.
>
>Howard
>
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mwheeler911" <mwheeler911@m...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi all,
>>Am new to the group and I am interested in info regarding the
>>miniature steel tug.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Try www.macnaughtongroup.com for plans for an 18 ft tug boat and even a
houseboat barge for the tug boat to push.
John T
houseboat barge for the tug boat to push.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Miniature Steel Tug
> IRRC the minature steel tug is pretty darn heavy, something on the order
> of
> 4-5 tons. It's theoretically trailerable, but what an awful lump to have
> to
> tote around!
>
> ABODANZA is attractive, about 24' LOA. Imagine a larger steel inboard
> Hawkeye. Not trailerable by normal mortals, IMO.
>
> JB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Smith" <pbs@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Miniature Steel Tug
>
>
>> Unless you are specifically interested in a very
>> small, rule cheating (no taxes on boats less than 16'
>> in the tug's home waters hence its length) you might
>> look at Abondanza a steel hulled fishing boat. Bolger
>> designed it for a man and his son who live in southern
>> California to go fishing off shore and to stay out at
>> least overnight.
>>
>> Phil Bolger designed an aluminum outboard runabout.
>> It's sort of a garvey design. As I recall the plan
>> number is in the 300s or 400s, so it was probably
>> commissioned in the 1960's. There's very little detail
>> on the plans. So if you can TIG or MIG and want an
>> outboard boat, this could be the one for you.
>>
>>
>>
>> Phil Smith
>>
>> --- mwheeler911 <mwheeler911@...> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> > Am new to the group and I am interested in info
>> > regarding the
>> > miniature steel tug. Are plans outside of the book
>> > (Boats With an Open
>> > Mind) available? Any other similar designs
>> > available? I am more
>> > experienced at working with steel than wood but
>> > there are few
>> > trailerable designs with similar construction that I
>> > have been able to
>> > locate. I haven't picked up a copy of the book yet
>> > but plan to soon.
>> >
>> > Any info would be appriciated.
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance!
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> >
>> >
>> > Bolger rules!!!
>> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
>> > flogging dead horses
>> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
>> > thanks, Fred' posts
>> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
>> > and snip away
>> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
>> > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> > - Open discussion:
>> >bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.16/83 - Release Date: 8/26/2005
>
>
I haven't paid much attention to this design type and it's heresy for this
group perhaps, but Jay Benford designed a variety of interesting small stink
boats. He's definitely unconventional enough to interest you.
http://www.benford.us/
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
group perhaps, but Jay Benford designed a variety of interesting small stink
boats. He's definitely unconventional enough to interest you.
http://www.benford.us/
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>> the tug style of boat and would actually prefer an inboard.
>> Mike
>
> Send a concise letter or a fax to:
>
>> Mr. Philip C. Bolger,
>> P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>> Fax: (978) 282-1349
>
> ...describing what you want and her will likely send you a prompt reply.
>
> If you haven't yet, also you might checkout _The Troller Yacht Book_
> by George Buehler. He describes the sensibilty of a home built, steel,
> stout, simple, inboard diesel powered crusier.
>
>http://print.google.com/print?id=gjesXY3tSC4C
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
MST is 15'11" x 7'9" x 3' with 5,360 lb. displacement and only
slightly less than that as its trailer weight. Full plans would be
available from Phil Bolger and Friends. The book shows plenty of
detail including the lines and offsets (but no panel shapes). If you
really want a small tug it might suit your need, but it doesn't strike
me as being much of a pleasure boat -- although I suppose that depends
on how you take your pleasure.
If you can work in aluminum, there is Bolger's Portland Skiff, 18' x
6'8", a planing boat meant to be powered by 50 hp outboard. It has the
same simple hull shape as the plywood Diablo, see:
http://www.instantboats.com/diablo.htm
Currach can be seen in Bolger's "30-Odd Boats". It's an 1/8" steel
boat, 24 x 7'7" with a displacement designed to vary between 2,500lb
light (somewhere near trailer weight) to 6,400 lb heavy. The write-
up's a little vague about suitable (outboard) power but to my eye it
would run quite well at semi-planing speed with a smallish engine. As
designed it's an open boat, but there would be scope for adding a
cuddy.
At:
http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/
... you'll see a few plans for sale for smallish steel boats.
Howard
slightly less than that as its trailer weight. Full plans would be
available from Phil Bolger and Friends. The book shows plenty of
detail including the lines and offsets (but no panel shapes). If you
really want a small tug it might suit your need, but it doesn't strike
me as being much of a pleasure boat -- although I suppose that depends
on how you take your pleasure.
If you can work in aluminum, there is Bolger's Portland Skiff, 18' x
6'8", a planing boat meant to be powered by 50 hp outboard. It has the
same simple hull shape as the plywood Diablo, see:
http://www.instantboats.com/diablo.htm
Currach can be seen in Bolger's "30-Odd Boats". It's an 1/8" steel
boat, 24 x 7'7" with a displacement designed to vary between 2,500lb
light (somewhere near trailer weight) to 6,400 lb heavy. The write-
up's a little vague about suitable (outboard) power but to my eye it
would run quite well at semi-planing speed with a smallish engine. As
designed it's an open boat, but there would be scope for adding a
cuddy.
At:
http://www.bruceroberts.com.au/
... you'll see a few plans for sale for smallish steel boats.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "mwheeler911" <mwheeler911@m...> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Am new to the group and I am interested in info regarding the
> miniature steel tug.
> the tug style of boat and would actually prefer an inboard.Send a concise letter or a fax to:
> Mike
> Mr. Philip C. Bolger,...describing what you want and her will likely send you a prompt reply.
> P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
If you haven't yet, also you might checkout _The Troller Yacht Book_
by George Buehler. He describes the sensibilty of a home built, steel,
stout, simple, inboard diesel powered crusier.
http://print.google.com/print?id=gjesXY3tSC4C
Conventional wisdom is that steel does not make sense below 25-30'.Short
boats made out of steel are heavy beyond their capabilities which results in
deep draft, higher power requirements, higher fuel bills, degraded
performance, and questionable seaworthyness.
boats made out of steel are heavy beyond their capabilities which results in
deep draft, higher power requirements, higher fuel bills, degraded
performance, and questionable seaworthyness.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mwheeler911" <mwheeler911@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Miniature Steel Tug
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
> wrote:
> > IRRC the minature steel tug is pretty darn heavy, something on the
> order of
> > 4-5 tons. It's theoretically trailerable, but what an awful lump to
> have to
> > tote around!
> >
> > ABODANZA is attractive, about 24' LOA. Imagine a larger steel inboard
> > Hawkeye. Not trailerable by normal mortals, IMO.
> >
> > JB
> >
> Am not oppsed to a plywood boat but like the idea of a steel hull. Am
> limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull I could go longer
> and build outside (would love to have something bigger). Really like
> the tug style of boat and would actually prefer an inboard. Am pretty
> good at mig welding steel and have a decent welder, but no experience
> with tig or aluminum welding. Have also looked at plans from a couple
> other designers (Bo Jest and Godzilli). I like many of aspects of
> either one but still looking for that "perfect" project. I pull a 3
> ton 5th wheel around regularly so am used to towing a heavy load but
> the added wieght is a factor. May just have to settle on a wood hull.
> Taxes not much of a concern here in Oregon. The boat would be used for
> mostly fresh water on some of the local lakes but would like to make
> the occasional coatal trip with it.
>
> Thanks!
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull I could go longer
and build outside (would love to have something bigger). Really like
the tug style of boat and would actually prefer an inboard. Am pretty
good at mig welding steel and have a decent welder, but no experience
with tig or aluminum welding. Have also looked at plans from a couple
other designers (Bo Jest and Godzilli). I like many of aspects of
either one but still looking for that "perfect" project. I pull a 3
ton 5th wheel around regularly so am used to towing a heavy load but
the added wieght is a factor. May just have to settle on a wood hull.
Taxes not much of a concern here in Oregon. The boat would be used for
mostly fresh water on some of the local lakes but would like to make
the occasional coatal trip with it.
Thanks!
Mike
wrote:
> IRRC the minature steel tug is pretty darn heavy, something on theorder of
> 4-5 tons. It's theoretically trailerable, but what an awful lump tohave to
> tote around!Am not oppsed to a plywood boat but like the idea of a steel hull. Am
>
> ABODANZA is attractive, about 24' LOA. Imagine a larger steel inboard
> Hawkeye. Not trailerable by normal mortals, IMO.
>
> JB
>
limited to 18' of garage space but with a metal hull I could go longer
and build outside (would love to have something bigger). Really like
the tug style of boat and would actually prefer an inboard. Am pretty
good at mig welding steel and have a decent welder, but no experience
with tig or aluminum welding. Have also looked at plans from a couple
other designers (Bo Jest and Godzilli). I like many of aspects of
either one but still looking for that "perfect" project. I pull a 3
ton 5th wheel around regularly so am used to towing a heavy load but
the added wieght is a factor. May just have to settle on a wood hull.
Taxes not much of a concern here in Oregon. The boat would be used for
mostly fresh water on some of the local lakes but would like to make
the occasional coatal trip with it.
Thanks!
Mike
IRRC the minature steel tug is pretty darn heavy, something on the order of
4-5 tons. It's theoretically trailerable, but what an awful lump to have to
tote around!
ABODANZA is attractive, about 24' LOA. Imagine a larger steel inboard
Hawkeye. Not trailerable by normal mortals, IMO.
JB
4-5 tons. It's theoretically trailerable, but what an awful lump to have to
tote around!
ABODANZA is attractive, about 24' LOA. Imagine a larger steel inboard
Hawkeye. Not trailerable by normal mortals, IMO.
JB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Smith" <pbs@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Miniature Steel Tug
> Unless you are specifically interested in a very
> small, rule cheating (no taxes on boats less than 16'
> in the tug's home waters hence its length) you might
> look at Abondanza a steel hulled fishing boat. Bolger
> designed it for a man and his son who live in southern
> California to go fishing off shore and to stay out at
> least overnight.
>
> Phil Bolger designed an aluminum outboard runabout.
> It's sort of a garvey design. As I recall the plan
> number is in the 300s or 400s, so it was probably
> commissioned in the 1960's. There's very little detail
> on the plans. So if you can TIG or MIG and want an
> outboard boat, this could be the one for you.
>
>
>
> Phil Smith
>
> --- mwheeler911 <mwheeler911@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> > Am new to the group and I am interested in info
> > regarding the
> > miniature steel tug. Are plans outside of the book
> > (Boats With an Open
> > Mind) available? Any other similar designs
> > available? I am more
> > experienced at working with steel than wood but
> > there are few
> > trailerable designs with similar construction that I
> > have been able to
> > locate. I haven't picked up a copy of the book yet
> > but plan to soon.
> >
> > Any info would be appriciated.
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> > flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> > thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> > and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:
> >bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Unless you are specifically interested in a very
small, rule cheating (no taxes on boats less than 16'
in the tug's home waters hence its length) you might
look at Abondanza a steel hulled fishing boat. Bolger
designed it for a man and his son who live in southern
California to go fishing off shore and to stay out at
least overnight.
Phil Bolger designed an aluminum outboard runabout.
It's sort of a garvey design. As I recall the plan
number is in the 300s or 400s, so it was probably
commissioned in the 1960's. There's very little detail
on the plans. So if you can TIG or MIG and want an
outboard boat, this could be the one for you.
Phil Smith
--- mwheeler911 <mwheeler911@...> wrote:
small, rule cheating (no taxes on boats less than 16'
in the tug's home waters hence its length) you might
look at Abondanza a steel hulled fishing boat. Bolger
designed it for a man and his son who live in southern
California to go fishing off shore and to stay out at
least overnight.
Phil Bolger designed an aluminum outboard runabout.
It's sort of a garvey design. As I recall the plan
number is in the 300s or 400s, so it was probably
commissioned in the 1960's. There's very little detail
on the plans. So if you can TIG or MIG and want an
outboard boat, this could be the one for you.
Phil Smith
--- mwheeler911 <mwheeler911@...> wrote:
> Hi all,http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/_0TolB/TM
> Am new to the group and I am interested in info
> regarding the
> miniature steel tug. Are plans outside of the book
> (Boats With an Open
> Mind) available? Any other similar designs
> available? I am more
> experienced at working with steel than wood but
> there are few
> trailerable designs with similar construction that I
> have been able to
> locate. I haven't picked up a copy of the book yet
> but plan to soon.
>
> Any info would be appriciated.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make
> Yahoo! your home page
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, or
> flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi all,
Am new to the group and I am interested in info regarding the
miniature steel tug. Are plans outside of the book (Boats With an Open
Mind) available? Any other similar designs available? I am more
experienced at working with steel than wood but there are few
trailerable designs with similar construction that I have been able to
locate. I haven't picked up a copy of the book yet but plan to soon.
Any info would be appriciated.
Thanks in advance!
Mike
Am new to the group and I am interested in info regarding the
miniature steel tug. Are plans outside of the book (Boats With an Open
Mind) available? Any other similar designs available? I am more
experienced at working with steel than wood but there are few
trailerable designs with similar construction that I have been able to
locate. I haven't picked up a copy of the book yet but plan to soon.
Any info would be appriciated.
Thanks in advance!
Mike