Re: external chine logs
Well technically you're creating chine logs using a stitch and glue
method, instead of making them of wood ahead of time. Both work,
though some designs don't lend themselves well to the S&G method,
needing the internal chine log to allow the panels to be pulled in
sufficiently to sucessfully attach them.
Bill H.
method, instead of making them of wood ahead of time. Both work,
though some designs don't lend themselves well to the S&G method,
needing the internal chine log to allow the panels to be pulled in
sufficiently to sucessfully attach them.
Bill H.
> I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logs reallyneeded?
> I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage).Don't care for the
> external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs.With generous
> epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boatbe sound?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:
I think that's an excellent idea that would work really well for
building a Black Skimmer upside down (or a Petesboat, which I'm
interested in). The stringers would solve the problem of holding the
panels in place while forming the external glass and resin joint.
The stringers would also ensure that the internal glass-epoxy joint
had nice neat edges. The only problem I can think of is that you'd
have to make sure that the stringers didn't trap water, leading to
rot. You could cut a couple of limber holes in the stringers to
prevent that happening.
Howard
wrote:
I think that's an excellent idea that would work really well for
building a Black Skimmer upside down (or a Petesboat, which I'm
interested in). The stringers would solve the problem of holding the
panels in place while forming the external glass and resin joint.
The stringers would also ensure that the internal glass-epoxy joint
had nice neat edges. The only problem I can think of is that you'd
have to make sure that the stringers didn't trap water, leading to
rot. You could cut a couple of limber holes in the stringers to
prevent that happening.
Howard
> My own idea was to fit two flat stringers near, but not at, thechine.
> One perhaps 3" above the chine on the side, and 3" in from thechine
> on the bottom. Each would have the dimension of 1/2 the chine. As
> stringers they would not have to be beveled. The fiberglass at the
> chine would have the number of layers of glass recommended for the
> 'glass butt joint.
> Bill, I am a little late getting in on this thread andI was also going to mention Devlin.
> it sounds like you have the advice you need. For what
> it is worth, PB has recently designed some stout
> cruising boats like Tahiti with epoxy fillets for
> chine logs. I have beat the hell out of my Topaz
> without any problem; she is built in the same way. So
> you shouldn't have any troubles. In Sam Devlin's
> stitch and glue book, he gives advice about the
> thickness of the fillet and how many layers of tape to
> use for given hull material thicknesses. Good luck.
> Sam
Is Black Skimmer the design where Bolger suggests splitting the chine
(vertically at the stem, horzontially at the stern) and glueing it
back together once fitted? If so, it suggest the difficulty of bending
it into place. As I recall, it's pretty substantial.
My own idea was to fit two flat stringers near, but not at, the chine.
One perhaps 3" above the chine on the side, and 3" in from the chine
on the bottom. Each would have the dimension of 1/2 the chine. As
stringers they would not have to be beveled. The fiberglass at the
chine would have the number of layers of glass recommended for the
'glass butt joint.
Copying Devlin would probably be a better idea.
Peter
Bill, I am a little late getting in on this thread and
it sounds like you have the advice you need. For what
it is worth, PB has recently designed some stout
cruising boats like Tahiti with epoxy fillets for
chine logs. I have beat the hell out of my Topaz
without any problem; she is built in the same way. So
you shouldn't have any troubles. In Sam Devlin's
stitch and glue book, he gives advice about the
thickness of the fillet and how many layers of tape to
use for given hull material thicknesses. Good luck.
Sam
--- urbanrocket <urbanrocket@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
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it sounds like you have the advice you need. For what
it is worth, PB has recently designed some stout
cruising boats like Tahiti with epoxy fillets for
chine logs. I have beat the hell out of my Topaz
without any problem; she is built in the same way. So
you shouldn't have any troubles. In Sam Devlin's
stitch and glue book, he gives advice about the
thickness of the fillet and how many layers of tape to
use for given hull material thicknesses. Good luck.
Sam
--- urbanrocket <urbanrocket@...> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone for their input on the chine__________________________________________________
> construction. I will glass inside and
> out. And if I find myself hove down I'm
> .......optimistic??..that I can cling to a leeboard
> support.
> Bill
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...>
> wrote:
> > Chine logs are good to hang onto by your
> fingernails, when hove down
> > on your beam ends by a prolonged squall,
> > DonB
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "urbanrocket"
> <urbanrocket@e...> wrote:
> > > I have a question for the collective wisdom -
> are chine logs really
> > needed?
> > > I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at
> the model stage).
> > Don't care for the
> > > external chine logs and was considering not
> using any chine logs.
> > With generous
> > > epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth
> externally would the boat
> > be sound?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Bill
>
>
>
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Thanks to everyone for their input on the chine construction. I will glass inside and
out. And if I find myself hove down I'm .......optimistic??..that I can cling to a leeboard
support.
Bill
out. And if I find myself hove down I'm .......optimistic??..that I can cling to a leeboard
support.
Bill
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "dbaldnz" <oink@w...> wrote:
> Chine logs are good to hang onto by your fingernails, when hove down
> on your beam ends by a prolonged squall,
> DonB
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "urbanrocket" <urbanrocket@e...> wrote:
> > I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logs really
> needed?
> > I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage).
> Don't care for the
> > external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs.
> With generous
> > epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boat
> be sound?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bill
I think you'll be just fine. I think the external chines date from
pre-epoxy times. My limited experience shows me that filets of epoxy are
much more effective, but epoxy does fail when you run into the
dock(impact) and crack it. Easy to fix though. Clyde.
urbanrocket wrote:
pre-epoxy times. My limited experience shows me that filets of epoxy are
much more effective, but epoxy does fail when you run into the
dock(impact) and crack it. Easy to fix though. Clyde.
urbanrocket wrote:
> I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logs really[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> needed?
> I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage). Don't
> care for the
> external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs. With
> generous
> epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boat
> be sound?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
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> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Chine logs are good to hang onto by your fingernails, when hove down
on your beam ends by a prolonged squall,
DonB
on your beam ends by a prolonged squall,
DonB
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "urbanrocket" <urbanrocket@e...> wrote:
> I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logs really
needed?
> I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage).
Don't care for the
> external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs.
With generous
> epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boat
be sound?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
On 9/15/05, urbanrocket <urbanrocket@...> wrote:
with small fillets and external tape only. [Mother Nature dropped
a ton of boulders on my rowboat which was stored on the ground
under a cliff during a heavy rain.]
The mode of failure was 'tension perpendicular to the wood
grain'. In other words, the tape pulled the surface layer of
wood off the plywood.
When you check the charts of wood strength you find that
wood is weakest in the 'tension perpendicular to the wood
grain' direction.
Logically, had the insides been taped too, then the chines
would have been supported more with 'compression
perpendicular to the wood grain'. Per the design charts
wood is much stronger in compression versus tension.
[The other leg of interior chine tape would expereince
a 'shear' force, and that would probably be the new point
of failure. *I'm guessing*]
Chine logs do it one better, in my opinion, because they
take advantage of the mechanical fasteners [nails or screws].
Such fasteners significantly strengthen a joint. [Versus a joint
that relies only on glue acting in tension between the tape and
the wood.]
In short, I think chine logs tend to be much stronger.
Don't misunderstand me, I also think that taped joints are
usually plenty strong enough. And strong enough is good
enough!
How many boats are required to tolerating getting dropped
upon by a ton of boulders!
Here is a picture of my 'real world test', look close and you see the
failure of the wood under the chine tape, a parting of the surface
layer of wood grain off the plywood.
http://hallman.org/bolger/roar/boulder.jpg
> I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logs really needed?I inadvertently experienced a real world *test to failure* of chines
> I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage). Don't care for the
> external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs. With generous
> epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boat be sound?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
with small fillets and external tape only. [Mother Nature dropped
a ton of boulders on my rowboat which was stored on the ground
under a cliff during a heavy rain.]
The mode of failure was 'tension perpendicular to the wood
grain'. In other words, the tape pulled the surface layer of
wood off the plywood.
When you check the charts of wood strength you find that
wood is weakest in the 'tension perpendicular to the wood
grain' direction.
Logically, had the insides been taped too, then the chines
would have been supported more with 'compression
perpendicular to the wood grain'. Per the design charts
wood is much stronger in compression versus tension.
[The other leg of interior chine tape would expereince
a 'shear' force, and that would probably be the new point
of failure. *I'm guessing*]
Chine logs do it one better, in my opinion, because they
take advantage of the mechanical fasteners [nails or screws].
Such fasteners significantly strengthen a joint. [Versus a joint
that relies only on glue acting in tension between the tape and
the wood.]
In short, I think chine logs tend to be much stronger.
Don't misunderstand me, I also think that taped joints are
usually plenty strong enough. And strong enough is good
enough!
How many boats are required to tolerating getting dropped
upon by a ton of boulders!
Here is a picture of my 'real world test', look close and you see the
failure of the wood under the chine tape, a parting of the surface
layer of wood grain off the plywood.
http://hallman.org/bolger/roar/boulder.jpg
The short answer is "no".
There would be two ways to proceed. First there is tack and tape,
where the sides are cut out (panel shapes are shown on the plans)
then bent around and and attached to frames or bulkeads (dimensions
also shown). Then the bottom is temporarily tacked to the side
panels before being permanently attached with epoxy and fibreglass.
Then the boat is flipped upright and similar seams installed on the
inside. In a boat as big as Black Skimmer, you would have to use
glass and epoxy over the thickened epoxy fillet. The method is
explained fully in Payson's "Build the New Instant Boats".
The other way (which I prefer) is to build the boat upright in true
stitch-and-glue style, as described in Samual Devlin's book. Cut the
bottom panel to shape, stitch the side panels to them, stitch the
bulkheads in, fillet and tape the inside of the seams, flip the hull
and finish the outside of the seams with tape and resin.
(In both methods there is the added complication that the bottom is
actually two layers of plywood.)
There is one difficulty, but not an insurmountable one, to be
overcome if you use method 2: the plans (at least the ones in "The
Folding Schooner") don't show the actual shape to cut out for the
bottom.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "urbanrocket" <urbanrocket@e...>
wrote:
There would be two ways to proceed. First there is tack and tape,
where the sides are cut out (panel shapes are shown on the plans)
then bent around and and attached to frames or bulkeads (dimensions
also shown). Then the bottom is temporarily tacked to the side
panels before being permanently attached with epoxy and fibreglass.
Then the boat is flipped upright and similar seams installed on the
inside. In a boat as big as Black Skimmer, you would have to use
glass and epoxy over the thickened epoxy fillet. The method is
explained fully in Payson's "Build the New Instant Boats".
The other way (which I prefer) is to build the boat upright in true
stitch-and-glue style, as described in Samual Devlin's book. Cut the
bottom panel to shape, stitch the side panels to them, stitch the
bulkheads in, fillet and tape the inside of the seams, flip the hull
and finish the outside of the seams with tape and resin.
(In both methods there is the added complication that the bottom is
actually two layers of plywood.)
There is one difficulty, but not an insurmountable one, to be
overcome if you use method 2: the plans (at least the ones in "The
Folding Schooner") don't show the actual shape to cut out for the
bottom.
Howard
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "urbanrocket" <urbanrocket@e...>
wrote:
> I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logsreally needed?
> I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage).Don't care for the
> external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs.With generous
> epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would theboat be sound?
I have a question for the collective wisdom - are chine logs really needed?
I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage). Don't care for the
external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs. With generous
epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boat be sound?
Thanks,
Bill
I'm working up to tackling a Black Skimmer (at the model stage). Don't care for the
external chine logs and was considering not using any chine logs. With generous
epoxy fillets internally and biaxial cloth externally would the boat be sound?
Thanks,
Bill