Re: [bolger] Digest Number 2657
> building the "Cartopper" and have the plans and having a hard time visualizingI posted two photos of the Cartopper, with sail rig to Flikr.
> the fittings on the mast since the plan view does not seem to match the
> elevation. Oh, well,
[I forget exactly where I found these photos on the web.]
Look close and you can see the rigging. It seems identical
to the ubiquitous Bolger 59sf sprit sail rig, and I don't
think the fittings of that sail rig are that fussy.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/bolgerboats/
In a message dated 10/5/2005 5:26:26 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, bolg
er@yahoogroups.comwrites:
Have you read Dynamite Payson's books, _Instant Boats_ and _New Instant
Boats_?
They both give pretty good tutorials for understanding the 'drawing
conventions'
used by Bolger.
I have the "New Instant Boats", but not the original book. Right now I am
building the "Cartopper" and have the plans and having a hard time visualizing
the fittings on the mast since the plan view does not seem to match the
elevation. Oh, well, had to use imagination and guess work on the mast step also.
Maybe Bolger originally designed it as just a rowing dinghy and the mast,
rudder, centerboard were later additions.
John Meacham
High desert of California
Bolger Cartopper.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
er@yahoogroups.comwrites:
Have you read Dynamite Payson's books, _Instant Boats_ and _New Instant
Boats_?
They both give pretty good tutorials for understanding the 'drawing
conventions'
used by Bolger.
I have the "New Instant Boats", but not the original book. Right now I am
building the "Cartopper" and have the plans and having a hard time visualizing
the fittings on the mast since the plan view does not seem to match the
elevation. Oh, well, had to use imagination and guess work on the mast step also.
Maybe Bolger originally designed it as just a rowing dinghy and the mast,
rudder, centerboard were later additions.
John Meacham
High desert of California
Bolger Cartopper.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hello, Bruce:
Yes, JB will plane when towed, I've never towed her faster than 8 kts or so. The trick is to have the tow line the correct length. Experiment to get the right length for your boat; once found, usually it does not need to be changed. I have seldom seen the "yaw" problem-that would only happen if the line is way too short. The boat is great because it rows VERY well and the wide bottom is a good safety feature when climbing in from the mother ship.
Chris
RE: June Bug towing
This eye also is what I use to hang the boat in my garage. My JB is
about 15 years old, and I will just build another when it finally falls
apart. They are wonderful boats.
on plane when towed? Do you ever see any of the 'yaw'
problem that others wrote about?
Certainly, the stability of the wide bottom of Junebug
should be useful when climbing in and climbing out,
and/or for tending an anchor, etc..
bolger@yahoogroups.comwrote:
There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Bolger and Friends address
From: Bruce Hallman
2. Re: Digest Number 2656
From: Chris and Eva Harvey
3. bolger 481 houseboat
From: "dmlms"
4. Re: Digest Number 2656
From: Bruce Hallman
5. Re: Best Dinghy
From: "David"
6. Re: Bolger, Payson partnership
From:catboat15@...
7. Re: Bolger, Payson partnership
From: Bruce Hallman
8. Re: Bolger, Payson partnership
From: "John B. Trussell"
9. Re: bolger 481 houseboat
From: "Evan"
10. Re: Bolger and Friends address
From: "Evan"
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 06:08:57 -0700
From: Bruce Hallman
Subject: Re: Bolger and Friends address
Yes, JB will plane when towed, I've never towed her faster than 8 kts or so. The trick is to have the tow line the correct length. Experiment to get the right length for your boat; once found, usually it does not need to be changed. I have seldom seen the "yaw" problem-that would only happen if the line is way too short. The boat is great because it rows VERY well and the wide bottom is a good safety feature when climbing in from the mother ship.
Chris
RE: June Bug towing
>sailboats. It tows wonderfully! I have mounted an eye low on the stem.
> I'll bet that I have towed my JB over 1,000 miles behind various
This eye also is what I use to hang the boat in my garage. My JB is
about 15 years old, and I will just build another when it finally falls
apart. They are wonderful boats.
>Good to hear first hand information. Does June Bug get up
> Chris Harvey
on plane when towed? Do you ever see any of the 'yaw'
problem that others wrote about?
Certainly, the stability of the wide bottom of Junebug
should be useful when climbing in and climbing out,
and/or for tending an anchor, etc..
bolger@yahoogroups.comwrote:
There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Bolger and Friends address
From: Bruce Hallman
2. Re: Digest Number 2656
From: Chris and Eva Harvey
3. bolger 481 houseboat
From: "dmlms"
4. Re: Digest Number 2656
From: Bruce Hallman
5. Re: Best Dinghy
From: "David"
6. Re: Bolger, Payson partnership
From:catboat15@...
7. Re: Bolger, Payson partnership
From: Bruce Hallman
8. Re: Bolger, Payson partnership
From: "John B. Trussell"
9. Re: bolger 481 houseboat
From: "Evan"
10. Re: Bolger and Friends address
From: "Evan"
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 06:08:57 -0700
From: Bruce Hallman
Subject: Re: Bolger and Friends address
On 10/3/05, Evan wrote:
> OK, so where do I find an address and fax number for Bolger and
> Friends?
> Thanks,
> Evan
You also can find it by typing:
" address and fax number for Bolger and Friends"
into Google and clicking _I feel Lucky_.
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2005 06:33:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris and Eva Harvey
Subject: Re: Digest Number 2656
RE: June Bug towing
I'll bet that I have towed my JB over 1,000 miles behind various sailboats. It tows wonderfully! I have mounted an eye low on the stem. This eye also is what I use to hang the boat in my garage. My JB is about 15 years old, and I will just build another when it finally falls apart. They are wonderful boats.
Chris Harvey
bolger@yahoogroups.comwrote:
There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Best Dinghy
From: "don_gordy_gordon"
2. Re: Seas of Peas (SOP) - Bolger Claim Found - Bolger Flow Theory (BFT)
From: "pvanderwaart"
3. Re: Re: Old Motorsailer (ADA) vs. New Motorsailer (cutwater)
From: Clyde Wisner
4. Re: Re: Old Motorsailer (ADA) vs. New Motorsailer (cutwater)
From: Clyde Wisner
5. Re: Best Dinghy
From: "ronschwiesow"
6. Ethan Allen in Lake George
From: "Chris Crandall"
7. Re: Re: Best Dinghy
From: "BARBARA SPOERING"
8. Re: Best Dinghy
From: "Bjorn Harbo"
9. Re: Seas of Peas (SOP) - Bolger Claim Found - Bolger Flow Theory (BFT)
From: "graeme19121984"
10. Re: Re: Seas of Peas (SOP) - Bolger Claim Found - Bolger Flow Theory (BFT)
From: Bruce Hallman
11. Re: Re: Best Dinghy
From: "John Bell"
12. Re: Re: Best Dinghy
From: "John B. Trussell"
13. Seas of Peas ... forever (?)
From: "James Greene"
14. Bolger and Friends address
From: "Evan"
15. Re: Re: Best Dinghy
From:jhkohnen@...
16. Re: Bolger and Friends address
From: Hugo Tyson
17. Re: Bolger and Friends address
From: "James Greene"
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:51:19 -0000
From: "don_gordy_gordon"
Subject: Re: Best Dinghy
I think one of the first boats Dynamite and PCB collaborated on was
designed as a "... triple threat - oars, sail, and power." Thomaston
(?) Galley. It's featured in Payson's "Go Build Your Own Boat" - a
good, informative read.
I'd think it would certainly hold four, avoid the boarding problems
inherent with a dory, and in addition, have the ability to sail.
A tow eye, if mounted low and inline with the pull of the line,
should allow the v-hull to track well at eight or more knots.
Phil & Friends seem to draw an awful lot of cartoons with Bricks
onboard, which seems an implicit endorsement - and the width is
variable for variable expected loads. Harold sells plans for a 38"
beam on the same rocker as the original 48" beam.
While the cartoons obviously only show the Bricks or Tortise on deck,
there are pictures of them being towed - how well, and at what speed,
I have no idea.
Just food for thought.
Gordy
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman
wrote:
>
> I would be eager to hear the response of both Dynamite, and PCB
> to this question.
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 13:03:40 -0000
From: "pvanderwaart"
Subject: Re: Seas of Peas (SOP) - Bolger Claim Found - Bolger Flow Theory (BFT)
> This is wonderful material. Thank you for the reference, I had only
> glossed over it before. It goes a long way, seeming to connect many
> passing, less complete, PCB sharpie-hull observations made
> elsewhere.
I think that essentially the same thinking may have been written in
other places as well, but I don't remember any place in particular to
look.
I'm not sure that Bolger's "theory" actually rises to the level of a
scientific "theory." That might require refinement. For example, if we
had a formula for a critical point
f(loa, beam, speed, rocker, heel) = BC (Bolger constant)
such that a hull on the good side of BC has good flow and a hull on
the bad side of BC has bad flow, then we would have a theory that sits
up and talks. As as far as I know, it's more of a postulate (or some
other weaker form).
Quite possibly, the theory of turbulance has some critical point
theory that could be applied to chines.
I stuck my little toe into the calculus of variations, led there (as
perhaps many are) by the claim that Newton invented it and used it to
determine the hull shape of least drag. Newton, as it happens, did not
know enough about ships and water to make the result very interesting
or useful.
Your point about notation is interesting. We tend to forget that the
notation and proofs that we see for the great theorms are often very
different from the originals. (I once went to a lecture on how Cauchy
proved Cauchy's theorem.) As I recall, our usual calculus notation is
due to Liebnitz, and the use of the "dot" for the derivative used in
calculus of variations is closer to Newton's notation. Or maybe I have
it backwards.
Peter
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:48:58 -0400
From: Clyde Wisner
Subject: Re: Re: Old Motorsailer (ADA) vs. New Motorsailer (cutwater)
You might contact PCB as he still has plans and presumably, some study
material on both versions of FMS. Clyde
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" wrote:
> > Your post left me a bit confused, as the last picture in the Fast
> > Motorsailer chapter in BWAOM is the original Ada. It does not have
> > the box keel.
> >
>
> If you go here and open the last link "BILL MCKIBBEN" you will see
> some photos of the enlarged cabin "ADA". Bill built the only one to my
> knowledge.
>
>http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/gallery.htm
>
> I think it is similar to the Diablo hull as described in "Build The New
> Instant Boats."
>
> ADA was originally written up in "30 Odd Boats". Also the newer version
> of FMS has been upgraded with double leeboards and a gaff rig option.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> " on the web.
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:50:37 -0400
From: Clyde Wisner
Subject: Re: Re: Old Motorsailer (ADA) vs. New Motorsailer (cutwater)
You might contact PCB as he still has plans and presumably, some study
material on both versions of FMS. Clyde
Nels wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gbship" wrote:
> > Your post left me a bit confused, as the last picture in the Fast
> > Motorsailer chapter in BWAOM is the original Ada. It does not have
> > the box keel.
> >
>
> If you go here and open the last link "BILL MCKIBBEN" you will see
> some photos of the enlarged cabin "ADA". Bill built the only one to my
> knowledge.
>
>http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/gallery.htm
>
> I think it is similar to the Diablo hull as described in "Build The New
> Instant Boats."
>
> ADA was originally written up in "30 Odd Boats". Also the newer version
> of FMS has been upgraded with double leeboards and a gaff rig option.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "bolger
> " on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service .
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:37:04 -0000
From: "ronschwiesow"
Subject: Re: Best Dinghy
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jack&Lois" wrote:
> From my experience JB does not tow very well. The forward chines
> have a tendency to dig in and set a course for JB all her own. And
> that was just at four knots.
I have a note from the web from December00 with the identification
http://mims.com/mailb/junebug.htmthat concludes:
"The one weakness of "June Bug", though, is towing. A bow of this
shape is prone to yaw if the forefoot cuts the water, as can happen
in a following sea or if it slews into the quarter wave of the towing
boat. In the next issue we'll show a new design for a tender for
which good towing behavior was emphasized."
The source of the quote was not identified, but it sounds like Phil
Bolger in MAIB. Does anyone know what is the "new design for a
tender"?
Ron, happy to tow a Nymph, but always looking for something even
better.
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:38:48 -0000
From: "Chris Crandall"
Subject: Ethan Allen in Lake George
We might wish to discuss the capsize and sinking of the Ethan Allen,
a glass-enclosed tour boat on Lake George, NY.
It apparently was capsized by a wake of a larger tour boat, while
leaf peeping. At least 21 people died as a result--many were very
elderly people who could take little action to save themselves, but
the immediate capsize raises one important Bolger issue:
Isn't a glass-enclosed boat supposed to have extra bouyancy for
safety? We need to know more, of course, but you can seek out some
of it online. THere are pictures of the boat in the New York Times
(free, but you must register), the Times Union of Albany has a
picture during happier times on the its front page, etc.
More info: Wind conditions--slight breeze, water was calm. Boat was
in a smaller, protected bay.
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:56:35 -0400
From: "BARBARA SPOERING"
Subject: Re: Re: Best Dinghy
Hi Captain - Of Course - at least 1/2 gallon an I'm working on the second half which helps me to visualize a Super Brick cut in half for a Super brick Cat.
Aloha - Jack
----- Original Message -----
From: David
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2005 4:05 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Best Dinghy
Jack,
Sorry, but I have to ask... by any chance - did Cap'n Scurvey's Best
Blackjack Rum have anything to do with this double-vision? Could be
the sun, but the symptoms point to rotgut.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind" -
Humphrey Bogart
***********************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "BARBARA SPOERING" wrote:
> Hi All - I've had an interesting thought but in the back of my
mind I'm sure someone in the Bolger group knows enough to shoot down
my balloon - - -
> I like multihulls and thought of building the "Rubens
Nymph" , but cutting out the extra foot in width from the bottom and
bringing those side edges up to meet the fore and aft seat, effectivly
creating a catamaran type hull. It won't be any lighter but will
have the stability of the Rubens and carrying capacity of the original
Nymph, (I don't need more) might even be a bit easier to row ?????
Any Thoughts
>
> Aloha - Jack - Ft Lauderdale
> Maybe it's the hot sun downn here?
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:53:17 -0000
From: "Bjorn Harbo"
Subject: Re: Best Dinghy
> I have a note from the web from December00 with the identification
>http://mims.com/mailb/junebug.htmthat concludes:
> "The one weakness of "June Bug", though, is towing. A bow of this
> shape is prone to yaw if the forefoot cuts the water, as can happen
> in a following sea or if it slews into the quarter wave of the towing
> boat. In the next issue we'll show a new design for a tender for
> which good towing behavior was emphasized."
>
> The source of the quote was not identified, but it sounds like Phil
> Bolger in MAIB. Does anyone know what is the "new design for a
> tender"?
I think it was/is the "Donovan Tender"
Bjorn
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2005 17:21:27 -0000
From: "graeme19121984"
Subject: Re: Seas of Peas (SOP) - Bolger Claim Found - Bolger Flow Theory (BFT)
Pythagoreans were flummoxed by the irrational number. Though it was
consistent, with mathematically expressed theory and remains so, it
was suppressed for centuries. It did not accord with the vision. Not
contingent. Nowadays for acceptance a scientific work need be
published in an appropriate refereed journal, as was the case in
Einstein's day. Mr E is misused a lot, is he not, and I would beg
his indulgence, but the exception proves the rule. Before the math,
and those competent say it is not of the most difficult kind, came
thought. In one case, about observers observing from various vantage
points. He actually thought about watchers on and around choo-choo
trains on tracks. The vision tackled theory, the math with work
followed to later describe, and later still came supporting
experiment. Ramanjuran saw, no doubt, mostly what may not be seen
again for centuries, and though mathematically most gifted it's of
little help to others in beholding the vision. Cryptic pointers,
publication eluded. Yes, Bolger's visionary theory needs refinement
as well as elaboration. There are some readily apparent (even to me)
simple mathematical relationships between the factors mentioned, as
Bolger occaisionally points out. Someone may derive the GUFF ( grand
unified flat-panel flow?), and a signatory formula such as E=mc2, or
f()=BC, or SO[U]dxP. And so for this criteria the nub: To go along
is to get along, for professional peer-reviewed orthodoxy it is
esssential, but would it change the Flow? It might be a different
PCB. Cats in boxes.
Graeme
verytasty boxed wine veritas? ;)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart"
wrote:
> I'm not sure that Bolger's "theory" actually rises to the level of
a
> scientific "theory." That might require refinement.
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:53:21 -0700
From: Bruce Hallman
Subject: Re: Re: Seas of Peas (SOP) - Bolger Claim Found - Bolger Flow Theory (BFT)
> Bolger's visionary theory needs refinement
I am not sure PCB would agree. After all, the Bolger box boat,
(the ones with equal curvature sides and bottoms) are cruisers,
not racers. They are no-compromise practical boats made
from low tech but efficient modern materials.
What matters most is real world function, (needing only real
world accuracy). Calculation to a fraction of a decimal point,
for boats like this, *has* no point.
PCB designs his boats; not from equations and computers,
but from the experience and artistry of his fertile mind.
Splitting of hairs could not improve on that.
[Consider the difference between art and science.]
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 18:54:03 -0400
From: "John Bell"
Subject: Re: Re: Best Dinghy
----- Original Message -----
From: "graeme19121984"
| Ask him specificallly about towing at 8 knots.
Towing my Sunfish at 8-12 knots is a scream. Water shoots out of the
daggerboard slot like a geyser, quickly filling the little footwell cockpit.
Being the brilliant guy I am, I thought "A-ha, I'll just leave the
daggerboard in place to plug the hole!" Only my idea wasn't nearly so
brilliant as me, 'cuz the boat promptly veered off in an entirely different
direction and capsized.
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Message: 12
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