Re: Family friendly schooner for daysailing?
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger6/lst?.dir=/Light+Scooner+with+topsails&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/
I posted a few pictures of my dream sailing on by bed.
I think I could hang the rudder in the outboard well. Not a real knock-off, but removable. That is enough for me. Steel profile prevents turbulence around the tip of the rudder.
The bottom part of the daggerboard would be of steel and maybe a steel strip under the keel for protection. Its weight down there doesn't harm either.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I posted a few pictures of my dream sailing on by bed.
I think I could hang the rudder in the outboard well. Not a real knock-off, but removable. That is enough for me. Steel profile prevents turbulence around the tip of the rudder.
The bottom part of the daggerboard would be of steel and maybe a steel strip under the keel for protection. Its weight down there doesn't harm either.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "efemiket" <efemike@r...> wrote:
redesigning SHS I think it would be easier to redesign LS to have
ballasted centerboard and to put the rudder into a box. It seems like
a much smaller change than increasing the LOA. I like the transom and
want to get the rudder away from there!
Speaking about the looks, I would love to fly a topsail above the
main, maybe also above the foresail.
As you can see, I am the guy who wants to experiment and tweak things,
if only a little to give them some personal touch ;-)
> Given your priorities, here are the solutions that occur to me:I think that as a starting point Light Scooner is the best. Instead of
>
> 1. Light Sc[h]ooner
> 2. Folding Schooner
> 3. DIY redesign of Single Handed Schooner - made a couple of feet
> longer to accommodate 2 adults/2 children
> 4. Buy or build a non-schooner and re-rig it as a schooner
>
> 1 is probably the most practical. 2 might be the most fun. 3 could be
> great if you are inclined toward experimentation. 4 might be the
> fastest way to get on the water, assuming you can find a boat for sale
> that can be practically converted to the schooner rig. Again,
> inclination to experiment would be a factor here.
redesigning SHS I think it would be easier to redesign LS to have
ballasted centerboard and to put the rudder into a box. It seems like
a much smaller change than increasing the LOA. I like the transom and
want to get the rudder away from there!
Speaking about the looks, I would love to fly a topsail above the
main, maybe also above the foresail.
As you can see, I am the guy who wants to experiment and tweak things,
if only a little to give them some personal touch ;-)
"...suspiciously like the Amherst Galley"
You are right, Susan. I had the notion that the Amherst Galley was a bigger
boat, but I see that's not the case. Damn those metric measurements :) [and
this from a product of a metricated European education system].
That said, I think I prefer the look of the BW hull. PB&F will have done a
more professional melding job than I would ever be able to, but their client
wasn't me.
cheers
Derek
You are right, Susan. I had the notion that the Amherst Galley was a bigger
boat, but I see that's not the case. Damn those metric measurements :) [and
this from a product of a metricated European education system].
That said, I think I prefer the look of the BW hull. PB&F will have done a
more professional melding job than I would ever be able to, but their client
wasn't me.
cheers
Derek
> Belatedly, It occurs to me that there might be some fun to be had inThat sounds suspiciously like the Amherst Galley, which is a
> grafting the Light Schooner's rig onto the Birdwatcher hull.
better-fleshed-out design. And also worth considering.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
On Nov 17, 2005, at 12:02 PM, alefoot wrote:
hal
> Belatedly, It occurs to me that there might be some fun to be had inI like it. Much more class than the original.
> grafting the Light Schooner's rig onto the Birdwatcher hull. A season
> under polytarp sails would probably be enough to tune out any troubles
> [e.g. altered balance between the double ended Birdwatcher's reduced
> bearing aft as compared to the Scooner's transom stern]
>
> Lining up the aggregate centres of effort for the two sail plans has
> the masts fall in workable spots. A little reworking of the jib is
> called for. Although originally done as an amusement, the result has a
> certain appeal, at least to my eye.
>
> Q&D image in Files area of Bolger6 group.
hal
Belatedly, It occurs to me that there might be some fun to be had in
grafting the Light Schooner's rig onto the Birdwatcher hull. A season
under polytarp sails would probably be enough to tune out any troubles
[e.g. altered balance between the double ended Birdwatcher's reduced
bearing aft as compared to the Scooner's transom stern]
Lining up the aggregate centres of effort for the two sail plans has
the masts fall in workable spots. A little reworking of the jib is
called for. Although originally done as an amusement, the result has a
certain appeal, at least to my eye.
Q&D image in Files area of Bolger6 group.
cheers
Derek
grafting the Light Schooner's rig onto the Birdwatcher hull. A season
under polytarp sails would probably be enough to tune out any troubles
[e.g. altered balance between the double ended Birdwatcher's reduced
bearing aft as compared to the Scooner's transom stern]
Lining up the aggregate centres of effort for the two sail plans has
the masts fall in workable spots. A little reworking of the jib is
called for. Although originally done as an amusement, the result has a
certain appeal, at least to my eye.
Q&D image in Files area of Bolger6 group.
cheers
Derek
> Given your priorities, here are the solutions that occur to me:If it were me, I would build an Instant Galley, using polytarp for the
sail cloth.
http://hallman.org/bolger/InstantGalley.gif
> 3. DIY redesign of Single Handed Schooner - made a couple of feetThe SHS doesn't need to be lengthened to take four, especially if two
> longer to accommodate 2 adults/2 children
of the four are kids. The chief reason why she only fits two as drawn
is that her cockpits are inconveniently sized for more than one
person. If you replaced the deep cockpits (and their high coamings)
with side decks and footwells (sealed-off footwells, that is, with
suction bailers) a la the Light Schooner, you could easily take four
aboard her for daysailing.
Getting under the foreboom when she tacks will be somewhat acrobatic,
but no more so than aboard a Sunfish whose rig has been cut low for
racing.
-- Sue --
(such a modification would ruin her as a cruiser, of course)
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
More Schooner Thoughts:
Schooners are just damn good looking. If your cruising
area had predominantly light winds, I'd seriously look
into the Folding Schooner. Fun and loads of carrying
capacity.
Phil Smith
Albany, NY
Schooners are just damn good looking. If your cruising
area had predominantly light winds, I'd seriously look
into the Folding Schooner. Fun and loads of carrying
capacity.
Phil Smith
Albany, NY
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "timoannu" <timo.knuuttila@v...> wrote:
1. Light Sc[h]ooner
2. Folding Schooner
3. DIY redesign of Single Handed Schooner - made a couple of feet
longer to accommodate 2 adults/2 children
4. Buy or build a non-schooner and re-rig it as a schooner
1 is probably the most practical. 2 might be the most fun. 3 could be
great if you are inclined toward experimentation. 4 might be the
fastest way to get on the water, assuming you can find a boat for sale
that can be practically converted to the schooner rig. Again,
inclination to experiment would be a factor here.
I'm building a Single Handed Schooner for 1 adult and occasionally one
or two children as passengers/crew. If I wanted to be able to take
more passengers I think I might go for the Folding Schooner. The cool
factor of a 30 foot schooner is just undeniable. Plus when you build
your Atkin maybe you can use one half of the folding schooner as a
ship's boat.
Mike
>Given your priorities, here are the solutions that occur to me:
> I would be sailing in the finnish inland lake system.
>
> The light schooner is planned to be a kind of trainer for schooner-
> sailing, as my long-term plan is to build an Atkin schooner, America
> Junior. I have dreamed of her since 1988 when there was an article in
> a finnish magazine. But to get the project started, I thought I would
> build and sail a lighter, cheaper and more "instant" schooner.
>
1. Light Sc[h]ooner
2. Folding Schooner
3. DIY redesign of Single Handed Schooner - made a couple of feet
longer to accommodate 2 adults/2 children
4. Buy or build a non-schooner and re-rig it as a schooner
1 is probably the most practical. 2 might be the most fun. 3 could be
great if you are inclined toward experimentation. 4 might be the
fastest way to get on the water, assuming you can find a boat for sale
that can be practically converted to the schooner rig. Again,
inclination to experiment would be a factor here.
I'm building a Single Handed Schooner for 1 adult and occasionally one
or two children as passengers/crew. If I wanted to be able to take
more passengers I think I might go for the Folding Schooner. The cool
factor of a 30 foot schooner is just undeniable. Plus when you build
your Atkin maybe you can use one half of the folding schooner as a
ship's boat.
Mike
> The rudder in a box is an elegant solution to combining theMy inboard box rudder system aboard _Shrike_ (my SHS) was considerably
> benefits of an inboard rudder with a kickup rudder. However, it
> is fairly complicated and expensive.
cheaper than conventional transom-hung rudders on other boats that
I've built with commercial pintles and gudgeons.
Unlike a transom-hung kick-up rudder, it won't kick up automatically
as you approach the beach, but as a secure solution for out in open
water, it's great, and it doesn't compromise your ability to tow the
boat on a bunk trailer or launch and retrieve it at an unimproved boat
ramp with no crane.
--
Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
Wow, did I get some feedback in a hurry! Thanks all!
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
>
> You also didn't tell us about where you sail and what
> kinds of winds you can expect there.
I would be sailing in the finnish inland lake system. The typical
winds are light 5kn, less than 10kn most of the time. They are
shallow waters with lots of islands, which creates an awful,
uncomfortable chop with winds over 10kn. I wouldn't be sailing, at
least not with the family in those conditions.
The light schooner is planned to be a kind of trainer for schooner-
sailing, as my long-term plan is to build an Atkin schooner, America
Junior. I have dreamed of her since 1988 when there was an article in
a finnish magazine. But to get the project started, I thought I would
build and sail a lighter, cheaper and more "instant" schooner.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Roger Derby" <derbyrm@e...> wrote:
>
> Schooners are beautiful, and, with a skilled crew, quite fast. On
the other
> hand they have at least twice as many strings to pull as a sloop
and more
> yet compared to a cat boat or dinghy.
>
> Before you lock in on a particular rig, you might consider your
sailing
> skills and your family dynamics.
Having enough strings to pull is part of the plan to keep everybody
entertained.
As to family dynamics: I have taught my ex girlfriend (present wife)
27 years ago to ride a derailleur gear racing bike and we still ride
a tandem bike, albeit with some loud feedback afterwards ;-)
The most probable crew for serious sailing in more harsh weather
would be the teenager, who is my crew while powercruising.
The boat would not be trailered at at all, or maybe once a year for
winter. She would beb beached in my summer house, though, so a
centerboard and a kickup rudder are needed. The rig can stand there
the whole season.
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>There's also the Chesapeake Light Craft "John's Sharpie" -- you could
>wrote:
>>
>> Too small for four, IMHO. Mine was best with two adults aboard.
>More than
>> that was a crowd.
>
>How about the Folding Schooner? Lots of room for four as it is
>essentially two 15 foot skiffs joinged at the transom. Easy to tow.
>
><http://www.instantboats.com/fschooner.htm>http://www.instantboats.com/fschooner.htm
>
>If one could get past the idea of needing a schooner rig, I would
>agree about Birdwatcher and also Micro would be a choice you would
>never regret:-)
>
><http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/>http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/
>
>And then there is The Jochems Schooner, if one is not going to do a
>lot of trailering.
>
>Nels
request the simplified sprit rig drawings. It's a cat-ketch, but certainly
schoonerlike.
--
Craig O'Donnell
Sinepuxent Ancestors & Boats
<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/>
The Proa FAQ <http://boat-links.com/proafaq.html>
The Cheap Pages <http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/>
Sailing Canoes, Polytarp Sails, Bamboo, Chinese Junks,
American Proas, the Bolger Boat Honor Roll,
Plywood Boats, Bamboo Rafts, &c.
_________________________________
-- Professor of Boatology -- Junkomologist
-- Macintosh kinda guy
Friend of Wanda the Wonder Cat, 1991-1997.
_________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Or Whalewatcher if you want more space...
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell"http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/_0TolB/TM
> <smallboatdesigner@m...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Too small for four, IMHO. Mine was best with two
> adults aboard.
> More than
> > that was a crowd.
>
> How about the Folding Schooner? Lots of room for
> four as it is
> essentially two 15 foot skiffs joinged at the
> transom. Easy to tow.
>
>http://www.instantboats.com/fschooner.htm
>
> If one could get past the idea of needing a schooner
> rig, I would
> agree about Birdwatcher and also Micro would be a
> choice you would
> never regret:-)
>
>http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/
>
> And then there is The Jochems Schooner, if one is
> not going to do a
> lot of trailering.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
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> and snip away
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> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@m...>
wrote:
essentially two 15 foot skiffs joinged at the transom. Easy to tow.
http://www.instantboats.com/fschooner.htm
If one could get past the idea of needing a schooner rig, I would
agree about Birdwatcher and also Micro would be a choice you would
never regret:-)
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/
And then there is The Jochems Schooner, if one is not going to do a
lot of trailering.
Nels
wrote:
>More than
> Too small for four, IMHO. Mine was best with two adults aboard.
> that was a crowd.How about the Folding Schooner? Lots of room for four as it is
essentially two 15 foot skiffs joinged at the transom. Easy to tow.
http://www.instantboats.com/fschooner.htm
If one could get past the idea of needing a schooner rig, I would
agree about Birdwatcher and also Micro would be a choice you would
never regret:-)
http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/
And then there is The Jochems Schooner, if one is not going to do a
lot of trailering.
Nels
Too small for four, IMHO. Mine was best with two adults aboard. More than
that was a crowd.
that was a crowd.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Family friendly schooner for daysailing?
> Following on from Roger's cautionary advice regarding the complexity of
the schooner rig - How about a Windsprint as an alternative with a simple
rig? It's only 16 feet long, but very roomy inside and I bet it could
accommodate your crew if they are properly distributed.
>
> Also, with Windsprint's huge sail, the live ballast should be a great help
in holding it down.
>
> I believe several list members have, or have had Windsprints. Am I
talking rubbish here?
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Following on from Roger's cautionary advice regarding the complexity of the schooner rig - How about a Windsprint as an alternative with a simple rig? It's only 16 feet long, but very roomy inside and I bet it could accommodate your crew if they are properly distributed.
Also, with Windsprint's huge sail, the live ballast should be a great help in holding it down.
I believe several list members have, or have had Windsprints. Am I talking rubbish here?
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Also, with Windsprint's huge sail, the live ballast should be a great help in holding it down.
I believe several list members have, or have had Windsprints. Am I talking rubbish here?
Bill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You also didn't tell us about where you sail and what
kinds of winds you can expect there. There are designs
that are appropriate for places with little wind, Long
Island Sound or Florida during the summer months, and
designs for places with lots of wind most of the time,
San Francisco or Buzzards Bay.
There are many very well informed and very intelligent
people active in this group who can give you two or
three or fifteen or twenty designs, perhaps not all
schooners, for you to think about over the winter.
The more information you can give them about how and
where you expect to sail and what the conditions are
likely to be there, the more considered and
potentially valuable their responses will be.
Phil Smith
kinds of winds you can expect there. There are designs
that are appropriate for places with little wind, Long
Island Sound or Florida during the summer months, and
designs for places with lots of wind most of the time,
San Francisco or Buzzards Bay.
There are many very well informed and very intelligent
people active in this group who can give you two or
three or fifteen or twenty designs, perhaps not all
schooners, for you to think about over the winter.
The more information you can give them about how and
where you expect to sail and what the conditions are
likely to be there, the more considered and
potentially valuable their responses will be.
Phil Smith
> Do you think these features could be combinedYes they could be combined, *if* you are the
type of person that likes to experiment and
modify the designs of boats. It is unlikely that
Phil Bolger would take on such a redesign, as
he has a long backlog of design comissions.
Schooners are beautiful, and, with a skilled crew, quite fast. On the other
hand they have at least twice as many strings to pull as a sloop and more
yet compared to a cat boat or dinghy.
Before you lock in on a particular rig, you might consider your sailing
skills and your family dynamics. Beginners to sailing want as little as
possible to keep track of. (Experience speaking here after teaching adults
to sail for several years.)
Do you and your wife work well as a team, or is there some contention as to
who's in charge, with each order (how dare you) challenged and considered
before being executed? I speak from experience when I say that the captain
should not have to always speak in a properly modulated voice when giving
orders.
I'd suggest that for a complex sailing experience with attention completely
devoted to keeping the boat moving, the schooner would work. (Didn't
someone build a three masted square rigger on a 20' hull?) For the fun of
sailing with quiet transportation past undisturbed shoreline and due
consideration given to the wind and currents, a simpler rig might be more
suitable.
Birdwatcher sure looks like a great boat for family fun if sitting on the
bottom doesn't hurt too much.
Just some thoughts before a major investment is made.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
hand they have at least twice as many strings to pull as a sloop and more
yet compared to a cat boat or dinghy.
Before you lock in on a particular rig, you might consider your sailing
skills and your family dynamics. Beginners to sailing want as little as
possible to keep track of. (Experience speaking here after teaching adults
to sail for several years.)
Do you and your wife work well as a team, or is there some contention as to
who's in charge, with each order (how dare you) challenged and considered
before being executed? I speak from experience when I say that the captain
should not have to always speak in a properly modulated voice when giving
orders.
I'd suggest that for a complex sailing experience with attention completely
devoted to keeping the boat moving, the schooner would work. (Didn't
someone build a three masted square rigger on a 20' hull?) For the fun of
sailing with quiet transportation past undisturbed shoreline and due
consideration given to the wind and currents, a simpler rig might be more
suitable.
Birdwatcher sure looks like a great boat for family fun if sitting on the
bottom doesn't hurt too much.
Just some thoughts before a major investment is made.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.earthlink.net/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "timoannu" <timo.knuuttila@...>
> Hi everyone, I am new to this group and in need of your advise. I plan
> to build a daysailer for a crew of two adults + one teenager and one
> child as a passenger.
>
> I am very much fond of schooners and I have been looking at Light
> Scooner and the Single Hander. I like the size of Light and the
> ballasted dagger board and "rudder in the box" of Single Hander.
>
> Do you think these features could be combined or, better still, has it
> been done in some design?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
The two boats developed the way they did because of different intended uses.
The Single Handed/His and Her Schooner is intended to be sailed by one
person sitting low in the aft cockpit. In this position, the ballast
provided by the crew doesn't exert much righting force. Since the boat was
originally intended for sailing to Catalina Island, PCB gave her a ballasted
dagger board (which, I think, is a physical challenge to raise or remove).
The Light Schooner/Scooner is intended to be sailed by a larger crew sitting
on the side decks. Since the crew/"rail meat" can move from side to side
and even hike out if needed, the crew is much more effective ballast and a
weighted centerboard is not needed. Incidentally, the Light Schooner has a
lot more sail area then His and Hers.
The rudder in a box is an elegant solution to combining the benefits of an
inboard rudder with a kickup rudder. However, it is fairly complicated and
expensive. Unless you are enamoured with the idea, I think it is cheaper
and easier to hang a rudder on the transom. As an aside, with a dagger
board, you will run aground before the rudder hits, so a kickup rudder is
only useful while launching/retreiving on a very shallow ramp.
John T
The Single Handed/His and Her Schooner is intended to be sailed by one
person sitting low in the aft cockpit. In this position, the ballast
provided by the crew doesn't exert much righting force. Since the boat was
originally intended for sailing to Catalina Island, PCB gave her a ballasted
dagger board (which, I think, is a physical challenge to raise or remove).
The Light Schooner/Scooner is intended to be sailed by a larger crew sitting
on the side decks. Since the crew/"rail meat" can move from side to side
and even hike out if needed, the crew is much more effective ballast and a
weighted centerboard is not needed. Incidentally, the Light Schooner has a
lot more sail area then His and Hers.
The rudder in a box is an elegant solution to combining the benefits of an
inboard rudder with a kickup rudder. However, it is fairly complicated and
expensive. Unless you are enamoured with the idea, I think it is cheaper
and easier to hang a rudder on the transom. As an aside, with a dagger
board, you will run aground before the rudder hits, so a kickup rudder is
only useful while launching/retreiving on a very shallow ramp.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "timoannu" <timo.knuuttila@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 4:15 AM
Subject: [bolger] Family friendly schooner for daysailing?
> Hi everyone, I am new to this group and in need of your advise. I plan
> to build a daysailer for a crew of two adults + one teenager and one
> child as a passenger.
>
> I am very much fond of schooners and I have been looking at Light
> Scooner and the Single Hander. I like the size of Light and the
> ballasted dagger board and "rudder in the box" of Single Hander.
>
> Do you think these features could be combined or, better still, has it
> been done in some design?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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Hi everyone, I am new to this group and in need of your advise. I plan
to build a daysailer for a crew of two adults + one teenager and one
child as a passenger.
I am very much fond of schooners and I have been looking at Light
Scooner and the Single Hander. I like the size of Light and the
ballasted dagger board and "rudder in the box" of Single Hander.
Do you think these features could be combined or, better still, has it
been done in some design?
to build a daysailer for a crew of two adults + one teenager and one
child as a passenger.
I am very much fond of schooners and I have been looking at Light
Scooner and the Single Hander. I like the size of Light and the
ballasted dagger board and "rudder in the box" of Single Hander.
Do you think these features could be combined or, better still, has it
been done in some design?