Re: cedar

I'm not sure the quoting is still accurate in this thread. In any
case, I'm sure the Dynel is good if the issue is just abrasion.
However, I think at the partners, and perhaps elsewhere, localized
crushing is part of the picture. In that case I'm guessing fiberglass
would remain superior. Not that you couldn't have a bit of dynel over it.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
> One layer of dynel is 6 times as abrasion resistance as 1 layer of 6oz
> glass per some tests in Boatbuilder several years ago.
>
> HJ
>
> pvanderwaart wrote:
> >> What about armoring the mast with fiberglass and epoxy at the
> >>
> > partners and other wear
> >
> >> points? Or wrapping it with some other thing to prevent wear?
snip

One layer of dynel is 6 times as abrasion resistance as 1 layer of 6oz
glass per some tests in Boatbuilder several years ago.

HJ

pvanderwaart wrote:

>> What about armoring the mast with fiberglass and epoxy at the
>>
> partners and other wear
>
>> points? Or wrapping it with some other thing to prevent wear?
>>
>
> Abrasion potection is an excellent idea, but I don't think that glass
> and epoxy are necessarily the best choice. Lots of things are harder
> to scratch than an epoxy surface, and are more attractive when worn.
>
> Leather, or combinations of rope and leather are traditional. Look up
> "worm" and "parcel" You do want to be sure you aren't creating a rot
> trap, of course. Some older boats used brass flashing.
>
> If you do go with epoxy, you might use one of the higher
> abrasion-resistant fabrics. (dynel, vectra? I forget. Don't even think
> of using kevlar. It's very hard to wet out and apply, and if you have
> a failure it's so hard to sand you might well give up and make a new mast.
>
> Peter
>
>
>

I think it might be a good idea to put something hard under leathers.
We're talking some pretty heavy loads here. The point of the epoxy
isn't to be pristine, but to take the damage that otherwise the mast
would, and to hold up longer than the unprotected mast wood. However,
I still like my idea of glued on popsickle sticks, maybe wrapped in
seine twine, leather, or whatever.

If you applied a layer of kevlar over the glass I bet you could grind
the kevlar off without cutting into the wood. But if you just sanded
it, I bet all those little hairs would make for an excellent bond.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> > What about armoring the mast with fiberglass and epoxy at the
> partners and other wear
> > points? Or wrapping it with some other thing to prevent wear?
>
> Abrasion potection is an excellent idea, but I don't think that glass
> and epoxy are necessarily the best choice. Lots of things are harder
> to scratch than an epoxy surface, and are more attractive when worn.
>
> Leather, or combinations of rope and leather are traditional. Look up
> "worm" and "parcel" You do want to be sure you aren't creating a rot
> trap, of course. Some older boats used brass flashing.
>
> If you do go with epoxy, you might use one of the higher
> abrasion-resistant fabrics. (dynel, vectra? I forget. Don't even think
> of using kevlar. It's very hard to wet out and apply, and if you have
> a failure it's so hard to sand you might well give up and make a new
mast.
>
> Peter
>

> What about armoring the mast with fiberglass and epoxy at the

partners and other wear

> points? Or wrapping it with some other thing to prevent wear?

Abrasion potection is an excellent idea, but I don't think that glass
and epoxy are necessarily the best choice. Lots of things are harder
to scratch than an epoxy surface, and are more attractive when worn.

Leather, or combinations of rope and leather are traditional. Look up
"worm" and "parcel" You do want to be sure you aren't creating a rot
trap, of course. Some older boats used brass flashing.

If you do go with epoxy, you might use one of the higher
abrasion-resistant fabrics. (dynel, vectra? I forget. Don't even think
of using kevlar. It's very hard to wet out and apply, and if you have
a failure it's so hard to sand you might well give up and make a new mast.

Peter

That thought crossed my mind as well.

Lincoln Ross wrote:

>What about armoring the mast with fiberglass and epoxy at the partners and other wear
>points? Or wrapping it with some other thing to prevent wear? That's what I'd try with a
>white cedar mast. You could even just glue on a ring of popsicle sticks, as they seem to be
>very hard. When they started to wear, you could plane them down and glue new ones on.
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jack&Lois" <jalo@...> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello Wes. Cedar is tricky. I don't mean particularly complex or mysterious.
>>I mean I'm often not sure which kind of cedar one is referring to. It SOUNDS
>>like you're describing what I know as EASTERN White Cedar. So maybe it's a
>>geographical thing, since I live in Canada and a huge amount of white cedar
>>grows more or less on my latitude. Ironically most of it is west of me since
>>I live in Nova Scotia. If your double tree is the same as the white cedar
>>I'm familiar with it would not serve well as mast(s) material unless you
>>wanted to use it to make a whole bunch of disposable little masts for tiny
>>sailing boats like Elegant Punt, Nymph, Tortoise, or Auray Punt. Like red
>>cedar, white cedar's main liability is its softness. An un-stayed mast, like
>>those on most of Bolger's sailing fleet, takes a lot of wear and tear right
>>at the mast partner. White (and red) cedar very quickly become scored,
>>chaffed and indented right at the partner. This is even true with mast
>>laminated from these woods. The area of indentation and wear becomes like
>>the perforation on a "tear along this line" form or card. The mast MIGHT
>>last months, maybe a season, but will sooner (most likely) or later snap
>>like a match stick with little or no warning. I might stupidly add that this
>>will happen at the worst possible time, as if there might be a pleasant,
>>enjoyable time for this sort of thing to happen. The reality is that when it
>>happens it BECOMES the worst possible time, regardless of how great a time
>>you are having up to that moment. This is all based on hair raising personal
>>experience. If on the other hand your tree turned out to be Yellow Cypress
>>(aka Western Yellow Cedar) then you have the makings of some powerful masts.
>>If there's any chance of that it's worth getting hold of a tree field guide
>>of some sort to make sure. They're easy to tell apart if you've got the
>>pictures in front of you. Regardless, hang onto the wood. It might be a poor
>>choice for masts, but it's still choice wood. If it's relatively clear and
>>sound it is joyful stuff to work with and it's nearly rot proof. It's
>>wonderful for any kind of stripper or cold molded construction. Just be sure
>>to wear your mask when you're sanding the stuff.
>>
>>jeb, suffering spar envy on the tree stunted shores of Fundy
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
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What about armoring the mast with fiberglass and epoxy at the partners and other wear
points? Or wrapping it with some other thing to prevent wear? That's what I'd try with a
white cedar mast. You could even just glue on a ring of popsicle sticks, as they seem to be
very hard. When they started to wear, you could plane them down and glue new ones on.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jack&Lois" <jalo@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Wes. Cedar is tricky. I don't mean particularly complex or mysterious.
> I mean I'm often not sure which kind of cedar one is referring to. It SOUNDS
> like you're describing what I know as EASTERN White Cedar. So maybe it's a
> geographical thing, since I live in Canada and a huge amount of white cedar
> grows more or less on my latitude. Ironically most of it is west of me since
> I live in Nova Scotia. If your double tree is the same as the white cedar
> I'm familiar with it would not serve well as mast(s) material unless you
> wanted to use it to make a whole bunch of disposable little masts for tiny
> sailing boats like Elegant Punt, Nymph, Tortoise, or Auray Punt. Like red
> cedar, white cedar's main liability is its softness. An un-stayed mast, like
> those on most of Bolger's sailing fleet, takes a lot of wear and tear right
> at the mast partner. White (and red) cedar very quickly become scored,
> chaffed and indented right at the partner. This is even true with mast
> laminated from these woods. The area of indentation and wear becomes like
> the perforation on a "tear along this line" form or card. The mast MIGHT
> last months, maybe a season, but will sooner (most likely) or later snap
> like a match stick with little or no warning. I might stupidly add that this
> will happen at the worst possible time, as if there might be a pleasant,
> enjoyable time for this sort of thing to happen. The reality is that when it
> happens it BECOMES the worst possible time, regardless of how great a time
> you are having up to that moment. This is all based on hair raising personal
> experience. If on the other hand your tree turned out to be Yellow Cypress
> (aka Western Yellow Cedar) then you have the makings of some powerful masts.
> If there's any chance of that it's worth getting hold of a tree field guide
> of some sort to make sure. They're easy to tell apart if you've got the
> pictures in front of you. Regardless, hang onto the wood. It might be a poor
> choice for masts, but it's still choice wood. If it's relatively clear and
> sound it is joyful stuff to work with and it's nearly rot proof. It's
> wonderful for any kind of stripper or cold molded construction. Just be sure
> to wear your mask when you're sanding the stuff.
>
> jeb, suffering spar envy on the tree stunted shores of Fundy
>

Thanks, Jeb. I've had a feeling since I moved here 6 months ago and saw
the dual tree growing out of the corner of the foundation of the future
shop that I should keep the trunks. I'll look into more definitely
identifying it. White cedar *is* supposed to be great for strip
building due to its light weight, which is a possibility for the more
distant future. I can't think of a good time for a mast to break,
either. :)

Jack&Lois wrote:

>Hello Wes. Cedar is tricky. I don't mean particularly complex or mysterious.
>I mean I'm often not sure which kind of cedar one is referring to. It SOUNDS
>like you're describing what I know as EASTERN White Cedar. So maybe it's a
>geographical thing, since I live in Canada and a huge amount of white cedar
>grows more or less on my latitude. Ironically most of it is west of me since
>I live in Nova Scotia. If your double tree is the same as the white cedar
>I'm familiar with it would not serve well as mast(s) material unless you
>wanted to use it to make a whole bunch of disposable little masts for tiny
>sailing boats like Elegant Punt, Nymph, Tortoise, or Auray Punt. Like red
>cedar, white cedar's main liability is its softness. An un-stayed mast, like
>those on most of Bolger's sailing fleet, takes a lot of wear and tear right
>at the mast partner. White (and red) cedar very quickly become scored,
>chaffed and indented right at the partner. This is even true with mast
>laminated from these woods. The area of indentation and wear becomes like
>the perforation on a "tear along this line" form or card. The mast MIGHT
>last months, maybe a season, but will sooner (most likely) or later snap
>like a match stick with little or no warning. I might stupidly add that this
>will happen at the worst possible time, as if there might be a pleasant,
>enjoyable time for this sort of thing to happen. The reality is that when it
>happens it BECOMES the worst possible time, regardless of how great a time
>you are having up to that moment. This is all based on hair raising personal
>experience. If on the other hand your tree turned out to be Yellow Cypress
>(aka Western Yellow Cedar) then you have the makings of some powerful masts.
>If there's any chance of that it's worth getting hold of a tree field guide
>of some sort to make sure. They're easy to tell apart if you've got the
>pictures in front of you. Regardless, hang onto the wood. It might be a poor
>choice for masts, but it's still choice wood. If it's relatively clear and
>sound it is joyful stuff to work with and it's nearly rot proof. It's
>wonderful for any kind of stripper or cold molded construction. Just be sure
>to wear your mask when you're sanding the stuff.
>
>jeb, suffering spar envy on the tree stunted shores of Fundy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Hello Wes. Cedar is tricky. I don't mean particularly complex or mysterious.
I mean I'm often not sure which kind of cedar one is referring to. It SOUNDS
like you're describing what I know as EASTERN White Cedar. So maybe it's a
geographical thing, since I live in Canada and a huge amount of white cedar
grows more or less on my latitude. Ironically most of it is west of me since
I live in Nova Scotia. If your double tree is the same as the white cedar
I'm familiar with it would not serve well as mast(s) material unless you
wanted to use it to make a whole bunch of disposable little masts for tiny
sailing boats like Elegant Punt, Nymph, Tortoise, or Auray Punt. Like red
cedar, white cedar's main liability is its softness. An un-stayed mast, like
those on most of Bolger's sailing fleet, takes a lot of wear and tear right
at the mast partner. White (and red) cedar very quickly become scored,
chaffed and indented right at the partner. This is even true with mast
laminated from these woods. The area of indentation and wear becomes like
the perforation on a "tear along this line" form or card. The mast MIGHT
last months, maybe a season, but will sooner (most likely) or later snap
like a match stick with little or no warning. I might stupidly add that this
will happen at the worst possible time, as if there might be a pleasant,
enjoyable time for this sort of thing to happen. The reality is that when it
happens it BECOMES the worst possible time, regardless of how great a time
you are having up to that moment. This is all based on hair raising personal
experience. If on the other hand your tree turned out to be Yellow Cypress
(aka Western Yellow Cedar) then you have the makings of some powerful masts.
If there's any chance of that it's worth getting hold of a tree field guide
of some sort to make sure. They're easy to tell apart if you've got the
pictures in front of you. Regardless, hang onto the wood. It might be a poor
choice for masts, but it's still choice wood. If it's relatively clear and
sound it is joyful stuff to work with and it's nearly rot proof. It's
wonderful for any kind of stripper or cold molded construction. Just be sure
to wear your mask when you're sanding the stuff.

jeb, suffering spar envy on the tree stunted shores of Fundy

Thanks for that. The Jersey skiffs are some of my personal favorites.

Christopher Wetherill wrote:

>Wesley:
>
>I would expect that cedar is not the premium material for spars, but I
>don't know for sure. What I do know is that eastern white cedar is used
>for planking in lap strake Jersey Sea Bright Skiffs. It is very light
>and highly rot resistive. I have one with rotted oak ribs and the
>strakes appear to be OK. There's an interesting 28 minute documentary
>on the subject of Sea Bright Skiff construction at
>http://www.folkstreams.net/film,41.
>
>CCW
>
>
>Wesley Cox wrote:
>
>
>>This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick skin. I
>>have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
>>white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
>>diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's literally
>>2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which is far too
>>close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are also eating
>>up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this a suitable
>>wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid enough, but my
>>wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15 years ago, so I'm
>>not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an aluminum mast, but I keep
>>looking at that dual trunk tree... Does anyone have opinions?
>>
>>
>>
>>Bolger rules!!!
>>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>>
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>>
>
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>
>Bolger rules!!!
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>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
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>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Wesley:

I would expect that cedar is not the premium material for spars, but I
don't know for sure. What I do know is that eastern white cedar is used
for planking in lap strake Jersey Sea Bright Skiffs. It is very light
and highly rot resistive. I have one with rotted oak ribs and the
strakes appear to be OK. There's an interesting 28 minute documentary
on the subject of Sea Bright Skiff construction at
http://www.folkstreams.net/film,41.

CCW

Wesley Cox wrote:

> This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick skin. I
> have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
> white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
> diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's literally
> 2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which is far too
> close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are also eating
> up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this a suitable
> wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid enough, but my
> wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15 years ago, so I'm
> not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an aluminum mast, but I keep
> looking at that dual trunk tree... Does anyone have opinions?
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Thanks, John.

John and Kathy Trussell wrote:

>Pete Culler writes of having used black(?)cedar for masts on fairly small flat bottomed skiffs. He indicated that all the knots made it tough. Could be a challenge keeping a plane sharp while working it....
>
>John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wesley Cox
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 8:04 PM
> Subject: [bolger] cedar
>
>
> This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick skin. I
> have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
> white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
> diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's literally
> 2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which is far too
> close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are also eating
> up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this a suitable
> wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid enough, but my
> wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15 years ago, so I'm
> not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an aluminum mast, but I keep
> looking at that dual trunk tree... Does anyone have opinions?
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Thanks. That's the only guarantee I was looking for. If it is white
cedar, it should be fairly light to haul the logs around the yard as
needed a year or two until an inspiration hits me.

David wrote:

>Wesley,
>
>I haven't worked with Northern White Cedar, just spruce & douglas fir.
>A quick glance at my favorite reference suggests that it'd be
>servicable for a spar. Similar, in a lot of ways to spruce, just not
>quite as strong. Therefore, I'd beef up the dimensions compared to a
>spruce mast. How much? Just shooting from the hip, I'd say about
>10-15% compared to spruce; 25% compared to fir.
>
>Note: this opinion is guaranteed for life to be worth at least what
>you paid for it <G>
>
>Cheers,
>David Graybeal
>Portland, OR.
>
>"Always happy to share my ignorance, I've got plenty"
>
>***************
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
>
>>This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick
>>
>>
>skin. I
>
>
>>have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
>>white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
>>diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's
>>
>>
>literally 2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which
>is far too close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are
>also eating up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this
>a suitable wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid
>enough, but my wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15
>years ago, so I'm not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an
>aluminum mast, but I keep looking at that dual trunk tree... Does
>anyone have opinions?
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

Wesley,

I haven't worked with Northern White Cedar, just spruce & douglas fir.
A quick glance at my favorite reference suggests that it'd be
servicable for a spar. Similar, in a lot of ways to spruce, just not
quite as strong. Therefore, I'd beef up the dimensions compared to a
spruce mast. How much? Just shooting from the hip, I'd say about
10-15% compared to spruce; 25% compared to fir.

Note: this opinion is guaranteed for life to be worth at least what
you paid for it <G>

Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.

"Always happy to share my ignorance, I've got plenty"

***************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
> This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick
skin. I
> have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
> white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
> diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's
literally 2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which
is far too close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are
also eating up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this
a suitable wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid
enough, but my wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15
years ago, so I'm not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an
aluminum mast, but I keep looking at that dual trunk tree... Does
anyone have opinions?

Pete Culler writes of having used black(?)cedar for masts on fairly small flat bottomed skiffs. He indicated that all the knots made it tough. Could be a challenge keeping a plane sharp while working it....

John T

----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley Cox
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 8:04 PM
Subject: [bolger] cedar

This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick skin. I
have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's literally
2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which is far too
close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are also eating
up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this a suitable
wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid enough, but my
wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15 years ago, so I'm
not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an aluminum mast, but I keep
looking at that dual trunk tree... Does anyone have opinions?

Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This may be a goofy question. If so, let me know, I have thick skin. I
have a tree, 25-30' tall which I think I've identified as a northern
white cedar. There are 2 trunks, both very straight and about 12"
diameter at the base. I'm going to cut it down because it's literally
2' from the foundation of what's going to be my shop, which is far too
close for the health of the foundation. The droppings are also eating
up the roof. I hate to just hack it into pieces. Is this a suitable
wood for a solid mast? It seems it wouldn't be rigid enough, but my
wood working days (professional, at least) ended 15 years ago, so I'm
not sure. As a metal worker, I lean toward an aluminum mast, but I keep
looking at that dual trunk tree... Does anyone have opinions?

It's a great little boat and if I were looking for a two up kayak,
it'd be on the top of my list. I had the opportunity to try it out
with Ed at the Kingston Messabout and really enjoyed our short outing.

There's a pic of Ed's boat on my Flickr site
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/bryant_owen)under Kingston Messabout.
Unfortunately it's not a close up so you can't see the workmanship,
especially the very nice seats Ed put in or the carbon/epoxy bottom Ed
applied.

It's a very stable design and IMHO would make a nice sailor.

Bryant

<snip>

> Its an orgami build. Quite simple. I put one together last summer.
> It took me a month to get to the its ready for finishing stage.
> This summer I have had lots of fun with the boat. It stable and
> dry. Mainly used it on lakes sometimes is 2-3 foot wave (peak to
> valley). I've had water over the bow but none in the cockpit yet.
>
> There is a picture of it in this years Kingston messable shots in
> bolger4 (I think).
>
> Ed

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "uncleralph123" <UncleRalph@a...>

wrote:

> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
> >
> > > What is a B&B Birder 2? I did a google and got links to 100's

> > > B&B's that specialize in Birding:-)
> > >
> > > Nels
> > >
> >
> >http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bird.htm
>
> Thank you Uncle Ralph:-)
>
> Is the building method similar to what it shows for the two small
> canoes. Sort of a bit like Bolger's DIAMOND. Fascintating! And the
> plans prices are really reasonable. The Birder's look very

practical!

Its an orgami build. Quite simple. I put one together last summer.
It took me a month to get to the its ready for finishing stage.
This summer I have had lots of fun with the boat. It stable and
dry. Mainly used it on lakes sometimes is 2-3 foot wave (peak to
valley). I've had water over the bow but none in the cockpit yet.

There is a picture of it in this years Kingston messable shots in
bolger4 (I think).

Ed

> Speaking of reasonable, I just downloaded the e-book "The Ultimate
> Canoe Challenge" off of Amazon.com for $6 and it looks really

good.

> Also I ordered Valerie Fons book "Keep It Moving - Baja By Canoe"

for

> $2 second hand as it is out of print.
>
> Just got some good reading for the long winter hibernation in the
> Great White North:-)
>
> Thanks everyone,
>
> Nels
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "edt_978" <tomlins@c...> wrote:
> > I have a B&B Birder 2 and am debating adding sails along the

line of

> > the Lake Sailor...
> >
> > Ed Tomlinson
> >
> Thanks for the links Ed.
>
> What is a B&B Birder 2? I did a google and got links to 100's of
> B&B's that specialize in Birding:-)

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bird.htm

Ed

>>Bill,

Did you use a double or single paddle with that? How was it in wind?

Jamie>>
Hi Jamie,

I used a double paddle - though I must admit to scraping my knuckles on the gun'ls from time to time. I never had the courage to kneel in her with a single paddle.

As to wind - certainly not so affected as a 'Canadian' canoe (as we quaintly call them on this side of the Pond), but neither as sleek as a Greenland boat with decks awash. I'd say that when there was enough wind to be bothersome, there were probably big enough waves to swamp her.

Certainly she's a fair-weather boat, but very convenient and light.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Try "Rowing to Latitude" by Jill Fredston

She and her husband have done some serious distance under oars. They are
avalanche experts during the winter and are often in Juneau for
consulting and lectures.

Cheep on Amazon used.

HJ

Nels wrote:

>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "uncleralph123" <UncleRalph@a...> wrote:
>
>
>>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>What is a B&B Birder 2? I did a google and got links to 100's of
>>>B&B's that specialize in Birding:-)
>>>
>>>Nels
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bird.htm
>>
>>
>
>Thank you Uncle Ralph:-)
>
>Is the building method similar to what it shows for the two small
>canoes. Sort of a bit like Bolger's DIAMOND. Fascintating! And the
>plans prices are really reasonable. The Birder's look very practical!
>
>Speaking of reasonable, I just downloaded the e-book "The Ultimate
>Canoe Challenge" off of Amazon.com for $6 and it looks really good.
>Also I ordered Valerie Fons book "Keep It Moving - Baja By Canoe" for
>$2 second hand as it is out of print.
>
>Just got some good reading for the long winter hibernation in the
>Great White North:-)
>
>Thanks everyone,
>
>Nels
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,

Did you use a double or single paddle with that? How was it in wind?

Jamie

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William Samson <willsamson@y...>
wrote:

>
> Not a Toto, but very similar, with same midships cross
> section is Bolger's Payson Pirogue.
>
> It was the most fun boat I ever had - light, stable
> and trouble-free. I'm sorry I ever sold it.
>
> Bill
>
> PS Jim Michalak once had a Payson Pirogue, and I
> strongly suspect it was his starting point for
> designing Toto.
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars -

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/

>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "uncleralph123" <UncleRalph@a...> wrote:

>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> > What is a B&B Birder 2? I did a google and got links to 100's of
> > B&B's that specialize in Birding:-)
> >
> > Nels
> >
>
>http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bird.htm

Thank you Uncle Ralph:-)

Is the building method similar to what it shows for the two small
canoes. Sort of a bit like Bolger's DIAMOND. Fascintating! And the
plans prices are really reasonable. The Birder's look very practical!

Speaking of reasonable, I just downloaded the e-book "The Ultimate
Canoe Challenge" off of Amazon.com for $6 and it looks really good.
Also I ordered Valerie Fons book "Keep It Moving - Baja By Canoe" for
$2 second hand as it is out of print.

Just got some good reading for the long winter hibernation in the
Great White North:-)

Thanks everyone,

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:

> What is a B&B Birder 2? I did a google and got links to 100's of
> B&B's that specialize in Birding:-)
>
> Nels
>

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bird.htm

Nels,

I agree with you as well. I am a big fan of KISS but the beauty of a good
sailing kayak is its versatility simple paddle boat to decent performance
sailing craft, the choice is yours in any local condition.
While lashing would work well the briliance of Verlen's catamaran rig is
that it can with practice be converted back and forth on the water. He has
aluminum tubes with spring buttons and loose fitting sockets built into his
designs. The tube slips in easily and the snap buttons hold them in place.

The catamaran system on his Two Continent Canoe Expedition had mast steps
fore and aft on both boats so the rigs could be set up both on one boat, or
staggered fore and aft on both boats depending on the point of sail. It
seemed to work pretty well.

You have read the book about his cross North America trip as I did. If you
enjoyed that, you may like the video "NEVER BEFORE, NEVER AGAIN" about the
same trip. They paddled from I think Ottawa at ice out to the Bering Sea as
it iced up without any motorized assistance. They either carried or paddled
everything for near what was it 6000+ miles in once season and even stopped
midway and entered a marathon canoe race. The video is maybe still
available from Mark P. the current builder of the Kruger boats. In his 70's
Verlen broke his own standing record for paddling the length of the
Mississippi River. He had already had heart surgery years before and after
he broke the record he told me on the phone one day that during his latest
record he was not as able to paddle as hard as he used to be. He said that
after his cardiac surgery he just couldn't sustain a sprint anymore. What
a paddler. Didn't ever start in canoes until he was in his 40's.
Mark

> From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 16:18:35 -0000
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: kayak sailing,
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Balogh <mark@b...> wrote:
>> The catamaran idea works well if the boats are well reinforced to
> accept the
>> tubes. It is perhaps a little more appropriate for touring than
> daysailing.
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> I agree. My thinking was that if one were to build a kayak, like
> DIAMOND , PRIOGUE or KOTICK, it might be worthwhile to consider this
> ahEad of time, so the extra reinforecment and fittings could be
> incorporated right into the initial building sequence.
>
> This would also include a mast step/leeboard, rudder and skeg
> location. Often much easier to build-in than add later.
>
> I agree with Bill on the KISS principle. Of course all this stuff
> can be left behind if one is just going out for a casual paddle.
>
> As for cat connector tubes, perhaps some sort of flexible lashing
> might be incorporated and although more appropriate for cruising it
> might also be fun to daysail off the beach in the right conditions.
>
> Hmmmm... how about a bi-plane rig?
>
> Do you have any links to the Verlen and Valerie expedition you
> mention? Verlen Kruger's exploits are truly epic. I have the book
> about his first tans-continental trip across Canada in a 20 foot
> cedar strip canoe. And then was in Winnipeg when he came through on
> the 28,000+ mile Ultimate Canoe Challenge.
>
>http://www.krugercanoes.com/news.htm
>
> If memory serves me, they travelled UP-stream through the Grande
> Canyon!? So much of what he did, defies human ability,including how
> old he was at the time.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

These look like sensible canoes/kayaks! No worries about setting off from shore in one of these. My kinda boat.

Mind you, I guess a trolley would be a must.

Bill

----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 4:27 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: kayak sailing,

Hi Mark,

Found a link:-)

http://www.krugercanoes.com/pr03.htm

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Mark,

Found a link:-)

http://www.krugercanoes.com/pr03.htm

Has a photo of Verlen and Valerie "catamaraming". Looks like they are
using your sails:-)

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "edt_978" <tomlins@c...> wrote:

> I have a B&B Birder 2 and am debating adding sails along the line of
> the Lake Sailor...
>
> Ed Tomlinson
>

Thanks for the links Ed.

What is a B&B Birder 2? I did a google and got links to 100's of
B&B's that specialize in Birding:-)

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Balogh <mark@b...> wrote:

> The catamaran idea works well if the boats are well reinforced to

accept the

> tubes. It is perhaps a little more appropriate for touring than

daysailing.

Hi Mark,

I agree. My thinking was that if one were to build a kayak, like
DIAMOND , PRIOGUE or KOTICK, it might be worthwhile to consider this
ahEad of time, so the extra reinforecment and fittings could be
incorporated right into the initial building sequence.

This would also include a mast step/leeboard, rudder and skeg
location. Often much easier to build-in than add later.

I agree with Bill on the KISS principle. Of course all this stuff
can be left behind if one is just going out for a casual paddle.

As for cat connector tubes, perhaps some sort of flexible lashing
might be incorporated and although more appropriate for cruising it
might also be fun to daysail off the beach in the right conditions.

Hmmmm... how about a bi-plane rig?

Do you have any links to the Verlen and Valerie expedition you
mention? Verlen Kruger's exploits are truly epic. I have the book
about his first tans-continental trip across Canada in a 20 foot
cedar strip canoe. And then was in Winnipeg when he came through on
the 28,000+ mile Ultimate Canoe Challenge.

http://www.krugercanoes.com/news.htm

If memory serves me, they travelled UP-stream through the Grande
Canyon!? So much of what he did, defies human ability,including how
old he was at the time.

Nels

Here are two links I find interesting;

http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/Lake_Sailor.htm

http://world.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=de_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fwww.faltbootbasteln.de%2ffbb-faltboot_unter_segeln.html

I have a B&B Birder 2 and am debating adding sails along the line of
the Lake Sailor...

Ed Tomlinson

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Will Samson" <willsamson@y...>
wrote:

>
> Mark wrote:
>
> >>The catamaran idea works well if the boats are well reinforced

to accept the

> tubes. It is perhaps a little more appropriate for touring than

daysailing.>>

>
> I had fun doing a "trimaran" thing with two pals back in June.

One of us had no sail, I had my tiny one, and the other guy had
quite a big one (sail that is!).

>
> We rafted up with the sailless guy in the middle, using his rudder

(an Aerius 1) to steer us along. We headed more or less dead
downwind and reached scary speeds! (OK about 7 kts but it felt like
more with the spray splashing up between the boats).

>
> The nicest bit was flying past a group of paddlers in their sleek

GRP/Kevlar jobs in our ill-assorted wood and canvas boats and
home-made lugsails with much whooping and laughter.

>
> The downside was that we travelled much farther than we'd intended

and had a long paddle home into the teeth of the wind . . .

>
> Cheers,
>
> Bill
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Mark wrote:

>>The catamaran idea works well if the boats are well reinforced to accept the

tubes. It is perhaps a little more appropriate for touring than daysailing.>>

I had fun doing a "trimaran" thing with two pals back in June. One of us had no sail, I had my tiny one, and the other guy had quite a big one (sail that is!).

We rafted up with the sailless guy in the middle, using his rudder (an Aerius 1) to steer us along. We headed more or less dead downwind and reached scary speeds! (OK about 7 kts but it felt like more with the spray splashing up between the boats).

The nicest bit was flying past a group of paddlers in their sleek GRP/Kevlar jobs in our ill-assorted wood and canvas boats and home-made lugsails with much whooping and laughter.

The downside was that we travelled much farther than we'd intended and had a long paddle home into the teeth of the wind . . .

Cheers,

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For low tech, you might consider the rig I messed with in high school, five+
decades ago. The boat was, nominally, a kayak, but had been converted to
sail by the addition of a double outrigger setup and a lateen sail. The
rudder was controlled by a piece of clothesline run around the outside of
the cockpit coaming thru screw eyes to a crosswise tiller on the rudder
head. There was enough friction in the rig that it stayed where it was put.

Since my sailing was on a mill pond in a river valley, nothing happened very
quickly, and the rudder setup at least was quite satisfactory.

Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Samson" <willsamson@...>

>>>I agree that a paddle is not the best way to steer a kayak, unlike a
> canoe where one is sitting in the stern seat when sailing. A foot-
> pedal controlled rudder is also a great energy saver when paddling
> into a quartering wind.>>
>
> All true, of course, but there's a price to be paid - complexity.
>
> To my mind the greatest thing about a simple kayak is that it can be
> popped in the water and paddled away with no set-up time. Once you get
> into rudders, foot-pedals and such, you are introducing things that may
> take some setting up and adjusting each trip, and also bits that may fail.
> They can be expensive, too, if you don't make your own.
>
> A good friend of mine is into big sails and outriggers on his kayak and
> gets a great buzz out of it. I, on the other hand, love my low-tech,
> low-maintenance, home-made approach to kayaking.
>
> I'm not sure if the name of the guy who first said 'different strokes for
> different folks' survives, but it's as true today as when it was first
> uttered.
>
> Happy kayaking!
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Obviously I sent this to the wrong reply address. My sincere apologies.

> From: Mark Balogh <mark@...>
> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:54:37 -0500
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Trolling motor for Micro Take 3
>
> Dave,
>
> When last I wrote I thought I was near ready to send you some rigs. I had 2
> boxes just delivered to us full of amas so we thought. The company found
> the lost amas we ordered in June or July and overnighted them to us.
> Unfortunately after I wrote I opened the boxes and they were Current Designs
> float bags. They sent ours to Wisconsin. I finally just got the real thing
> shipped back here. The man that made them had written me before his last
> day at work before they shut down the RF welding shop and said he found a
> short piece of the black ama material and would try to make me a small
> batch. He then left and I was not able to find out if he did it until the
> boxes came. He apparently was not able to make them. I now have two colors
> in a 400 denier nylon without the urethane coating on the outside. I have a
> yellow color with red logo and it is similar to the color of sailcloth we
> call gold. We also have a blue color with red logo. The blue similar or a
> bit darker than the blue sailcloth. The rest of your gear is ready but need
> to know ama colors to ship.
>
> Best,
> Mark
> --
> BALOGH SAIL DESIGNS (434) 735-8262
> SAIL RIGS AND OUTRIGGERS
> FOR KAYAKS AND CANOES
> FOR RECREATION OR EXPEDITION
>http://baloghsaildesigns.com
>
>> From: Eric OHiggins <chaemeocyparis@...>
>> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 10:43:16 -0800 (PST)
>> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Trolling motor for Micro Take 3
>>
>> Thanks for that reply, Harry, and I've put the website
>> into my tickler file. I was dreaming about something
>> extensively soundproofed for use on a smallish boat,
>> but still I'me really impressed by the compact size of
>> that diesel genset.
>> 300amps of 12v, 3600watts, in that small package turns
>> me on! My 1964 vintage Petter 3500watt, 7hp genset
>> weighs 1,200 pounds and that's no typo! Plus of
>> course, its noise will loosen your fillings in your
>> teeth at 30 paces. Amazingly fuel efficent, though,
>> and so heavy it doesn't slow down when you throw on
>> more load.
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> --- Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>>
>>> They do make 12 sets, using Alternators, They can be
>>> made to run very
>>> quietly at slow speeds as they don't have to give
>>> the 60 cycles. I
>>> talked to one manufacturer who had a customer use
>>> one in a remote site
>>> at Cape Yakataga. He said he had it running at slow
>>> speed 24 hours a day
>>> into a battery bank at a bout 10 amps and the
>>> variable demand was
>>> handled by the batteries acting like an accumulator.
>>>
>>> Here is one manufacturer that I found with a quick
>>> search, it is kind of
>>> spendy, but you get a watermaker out of the deal.
>>>
>>>
>>http://www.watermakerstore.com/Generators/Generators.html#W&P
>>>
>>> HJ
>>>
>>>
>>> chaemeocyparis wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---snip---
>>>> The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them
>>> really good boat companions compared
>>>> to open, aircooled engines. If only somebody made
>>> a self-blimped 12-volt genset to charge
>>>> yr battery bank efficiently, but I've never heard
>>> of one. As for 110, I'm phasing out of 110
>>>> altogether because 12v lighting and appliances have
>>> improved so dramatically in recent
>>>> years.
>>>> Good luck. Eric
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>>
>>>
>>> Bolger rules!!!
>>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
>>> respamming, or flogging dead horses
>>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
>>> thanks, Fred' posts
>>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
>>> and snip away
>>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
>>> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> - Open discussion:
>>>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>
>>>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________
>> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
>>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
>> horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
>> (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

> From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:16:49 -0000
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: kayak sailing,
>

>
> A pair of DIAMONDS could also be joined together using lengths of
> light tubing, thus becoming a very stable cat for two people. Could
> even take turns sailing/paddling and resting.
>
> During their 30,000 mile canoe odessey, Verlan Kruger and Mike
> Landick used that stratedgy while traversing the Great Lakes and
> other large water bodies. The tubes did double duty as a frame for a
> wind shelter ashore if memory serves me. They travelled in single
> person covered canoes that could be paddled either with a single or
> double paddle.
>
> Paul - what was the sail model that you used?
>
> Thanks, Nels

The catamaran idea works well if the boats are well reinforced to accept the
tubes. It is perhaps a little more appropriate for touring than daysailing.
Of interest on the Kruger thread. Verlen and Valerie used the catamaran
canoes on their Two Continent Canoe Expedition from the Arctic Circle to
Patagonia. On that trip they carried two sails and according to Valerie
used them pretty extensively including their crossing from the Florida Keys
to the Bahamas and for 20 some days sailing up the Orinoco River. The
catamaran was such a stable platform that Verlen told me that he sailed on
Lake Argentina in a squall that was measured by a local weather monitor at
160+ kph or 90 some mph. He kept one sail up just to keep enough steerage to
sail parallel to a lee shore as he said it was too windy to lift a paddle.
He pulled in the sail just enough to keep moving and he said the rig
vibrated so hard he was afraid it would damage the hull which is made from
multiple layers of Kevlar. The catamaran kayak or decked canoe is
incredibly seaworthy if executed well. Its only real weakness is breaking
surf. No reason why two of the Bolger kayaks could not be customized to
make a serious touring machine.
Mark

I have a 1966 Klepper Aerius 2 with the original S-4 rig w/spruce spars and
egyptian cotton sails; a gunter-lug main and a jib. I've modified it a bit
so you can retrieve the jib in a stiff blow and set it back out again.
Before I got the sail rig (took me a year to convince the previous owner to
part with it) I mocked up a complete Klepper rig in polytarp and yardsale
junk - I think I calculated I had $14 into the whole rig and we did some
interesting trips under that rig, including several days on the Amazon
river. When the Klepper got a bit threadbare from so much use I bought a new
Nautiraid double in 1996 and adapted the Klepper S-4 rig to that. I've also
built 3 strip kayaks (no rudders, Will!) that I 'sailed' long distances when
conditions permitted with a frameless parafoil kite I made from an old REI
dome tent - (no spars either! packs into a pouch the size of a couple packs
of cigarettes, line and all). Best part is the look you get from passing
sailboats when they realize that thing up in the sky is attached to you and
is actually doing some work, while you coast by with your paddle strapped
down, making a sandwich on deck.

But the Balogh rig is pretty slick - for less square footage it paced the
S-4 about perfectly - similar boats, same Klepper dual leeboard system,
similar weight aboard. The Balogh snaps through tacks much more handily,
and goes up in a fraction of the time the S-4 takes to set up - my brother
was out sailing in circles waiting for us for about 10 minutes. I may ask
Santa for one and put that S-4 in a museum ;-)

Stay dry!

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Nels
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 12:17 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: kayak sailing,

Hi Paul,

Very interesting advice:-) (Mark - by the way - Is Mark Balogh -
whose link I provided earlier and is a designer of kayak sailing
accesories.)

I agree that a paddle is not the best way to steer a kayak, unlike a
canoe where one is sitting in the stern seat when sailing. A foot-
pedal controlled rudder is also a great energy saver when paddling
into a quartering wind.

Bolger states in his article that a person could lop the ends
off "DIAMOND" and not lose performance, so by lopping off a bit of
the stern overhang it would allow a rudder to be installed. Perhaps
one might want to have a shallow skeg as well? What ya think?

With a rudder, a narrow kayak can also be paddled with a single
paddle to utilize different muscles. (Some kayak paddles convert to
two single paddles.)

The topsides of DIAMOND might make it easy to clamp on a small
leeboard as well. Or a single paddle?

A pair of DIAMONDS could also be joined together using lengths of
light tubing, thus becoming a very stable cat for two people. Could
even take turns sailing/paddling and resting.

During their 30,000 mile canoe odessey, Verlan Kruger and Mike
Landick used that stratedgy while traversing the Great Lakes and
other large water bodies. The tubes did double duty as a frame for a
wind shelter ashore if memory serves me. They travelled in single
person covered canoes that could be paddled either with a single or
double paddle.

Paul - what was the sail model that you used?

Thanks, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
>
> I've sailed kayaks for about 15 years, and while I would probably
never
> choose to sail without a rudder, I have experimented with
balancing the
> leeboards against the sail - I don't think it'd be a long-term
solution, but
> it's a fun exercise in safe waters.

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

Dave,

When last I wrote I thought I was near ready to send you some rigs. I had 2
boxes just delivered to us full of amas so we thought. The company found
the lost amas we ordered in June or July and overnighted them to us.
Unfortunately after I wrote I opened the boxes and they were Current Designs
float bags. They sent ours to Wisconsin. I finally just got the real thing
shipped back here. The man that made them had written me before his last
day at work before they shut down the RF welding shop and said he found a
short piece of the black ama material and would try to make me a small
batch. He then left and I was not able to find out if he did it until the
boxes came. He apparently was not able to make them. I now have two colors
in a 400 denier nylon without the urethane coating on the outside. I have a
yellow color with red logo and it is similar to the color of sailcloth we
call gold. We also have a blue color with red logo. The blue similar or a
bit darker than the blue sailcloth. The rest of your gear is ready but need
to know ama colors to ship.

Best,
Mark
--
BALOGH SAIL DESIGNS (434) 735-8262
SAIL RIGS AND OUTRIGGERS
FOR KAYAKS AND CANOES
FOR RECREATION OR EXPEDITION
http://baloghsaildesigns.com

> From: Eric OHiggins <chaemeocyparis@...>
> Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 10:43:16 -0800 (PST)
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Trolling motor for Micro Take 3
>
> Thanks for that reply, Harry, and I've put the website
> into my tickler file. I was dreaming about something
> extensively soundproofed for use on a smallish boat,
> but still I'me really impressed by the compact size of
> that diesel genset.
> 300amps of 12v, 3600watts, in that small package turns
> me on! My 1964 vintage Petter 3500watt, 7hp genset
> weighs 1,200 pounds and that's no typo! Plus of
> course, its noise will loosen your fillings in your
> teeth at 30 paces. Amazingly fuel efficent, though,
> and so heavy it doesn't slow down when you throw on
> more load.
> Eric
>
>
> --- Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
>> They do make 12 sets, using Alternators, They can be
>> made to run very
>> quietly at slow speeds as they don't have to give
>> the 60 cycles. I
>> talked to one manufacturer who had a customer use
>> one in a remote site
>> at Cape Yakataga. He said he had it running at slow
>> speed 24 hours a day
>> into a battery bank at a bout 10 amps and the
>> variable demand was
>> handled by the batteries acting like an accumulator.
>>
>> Here is one manufacturer that I found with a quick
>> search, it is kind of
>> spendy, but you get a watermaker out of the deal.
>>
>>
>http://www.watermakerstore.com/Generators/Generators.html#W&P
>>
>> HJ
>>
>>
>> chaemeocyparis wrote:
>>
>>> ---snip---
>>> The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them
>> really good boat companions compared
>>> to open, aircooled engines. If only somebody made
>> a self-blimped 12-volt genset to charge
>>> yr battery bank efficiently, but I've never heard
>> of one. As for 110, I'm phasing out of 110
>>> altogether because 12v lighting and appliances have
>> improved so dramatically in recent
>>> years.
>>> Good luck. Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
>> respamming, or flogging dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
>> thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
>> and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
>> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:
>>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
>http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks for that reply, Harry, and I've put the website
into my tickler file. I was dreaming about something
extensively soundproofed for use on a smallish boat,
but still I'me really impressed by the compact size of
that diesel genset.
300amps of 12v, 3600watts, in that small package turns
me on! My 1964 vintage Petter 3500watt, 7hp genset
weighs 1,200 pounds and that's no typo! Plus of
course, its noise will loosen your fillings in your
teeth at 30 paces. Amazingly fuel efficent, though,
and so heavy it doesn't slow down when you throw on
more load.
Eric

--- Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:

> They do make 12 sets, using Alternators, They can be
> made to run very
> quietly at slow speeds as they don't have to give
> the 60 cycles. I
> talked to one manufacturer who had a customer use
> one in a remote site
> at Cape Yakataga. He said he had it running at slow
> speed 24 hours a day
> into a battery bank at a bout 10 amps and the
> variable demand was
> handled by the batteries acting like an accumulator.
>
> Here is one manufacturer that I found with a quick
> search, it is kind of
> spendy, but you get a watermaker out of the deal.
>
>

http://www.watermakerstore.com/Generators/Generators.html#W&P

>
> HJ
>
>
> chaemeocyparis wrote:
>
> >---snip---
> > The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them
> really good boat companions compared
> >to open, aircooled engines. If only somebody made
> a self-blimped 12-volt genset to charge
> >yr battery bank efficiently, but I've never heard
> of one. As for 110, I'm phasing out of 110
> >altogether because 12v lighting and appliances have
> improved so dramatically in recent
> >years.
> >Good luck. Eric
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make
> Yahoo! your home page
>

http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/_0TolB/TM

>

--------------------------------------------------------------------~->

>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
> respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:
>bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page!
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

>>I agree that a paddle is not the best way to steer a kayak, unlike a

canoe where one is sitting in the stern seat when sailing. A foot-
pedal controlled rudder is also a great energy saver when paddling
into a quartering wind.>>

All true, of course, but there's a price to be paid - complexity.

To my mind the greatest thing about a simple kayak is that it can be popped in the water and paddled away with no set-up time. Once you get into rudders, foot-pedals and such, you are introducing things that may take some setting up and adjusting each trip, and also bits that may fail. They can be expensive, too, if you don't make your own.

A good friend of mine is into big sails and outriggers on his kayak and gets a great buzz out of it. I, on the other hand, love my low-tech, low-maintenance, home-made approach to kayaking.

I'm not sure if the name of the guy who first said 'different strokes for different folks' survives, but it's as true today as when it was first uttered.

Happy kayaking!

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Paul,

Very interesting advice:-) (Mark - by the way - Is Mark Balogh -
whose link I provided earlier and is a designer of kayak sailing
accesories.)

I agree that a paddle is not the best way to steer a kayak, unlike a
canoe where one is sitting in the stern seat when sailing. A foot-
pedal controlled rudder is also a great energy saver when paddling
into a quartering wind.

Bolger states in his article that a person could lop the ends
off "DIAMOND" and not lose performance, so by lopping off a bit of
the stern overhang it would allow a rudder to be installed. Perhaps
one might want to have a shallow skeg as well? What ya think?

With a rudder, a narrow kayak can also be paddled with a single
paddle to utilize different muscles. (Some kayak paddles convert to
two single paddles.)

The topsides of DIAMOND might make it easy to clamp on a small
leeboard as well. Or a single paddle?

A pair of DIAMONDS could also be joined together using lengths of
light tubing, thus becoming a very stable cat for two people. Could
even take turns sailing/paddling and resting.

During their 30,000 mile canoe odessey, Verlan Kruger and Mike
Landick used that stratedgy while traversing the Great Lakes and
other large water bodies. The tubes did double duty as a frame for a
wind shelter ashore if memory serves me. They travelled in single
person covered canoes that could be paddled either with a single or
double paddle.

Paul - what was the sail model that you used?

Thanks, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
>
> I've sailed kayaks for about 15 years, and while I would probably
never
> choose to sail without a rudder, I have experimented with
balancing the
> leeboards against the sail - I don't think it'd be a long-term
solution, but
> it's a fun exercise in safe waters.

I've sailed kayaks for about 15 years, and while I would probably never
choose to sail without a rudder, I have experimented with balancing the
leeboards against the sail - I don't think it'd be a long-term solution, but
it's a fun exercise in safe waters. I have a Klepper and a Nautiraid double
and use the same Klepper clamp-on leeboard bracket with pivoting leeboards
on both boats, so this kind of exercise is easy to play with. I've steered
solo boats with a paddle under kite power many times and it gets tiring very
quickly - give me my rudder any day. But the main thing I think a rudder
gives you is safety - with the lack of stability of a kayak, you want to be
able to round up into the wind quickly when a gust comes along. I've never
played with outriggers - rigging the sail takes long enough as it is, and my
boats are usually loaded, so plenty of ballast.

I recently sailed one of Mark's rigs on a 'raid, and was amazed at how
snappy the handling was - like a little wind-powered go-kart on the water -
loads of fun! I've mostly used sails to cover long distances, never
considered it exciting enough to be worth taking out for sporty day-sailing,
but this is different! Also faster to rig, which makes it more worthwhile
for a brief outing.

Paul L.

-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Will Samson
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:48 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: OT: kayak sailing, was Trolling motor for
Micro Take 3

> Does anyone have experience sailing a kayak? Is a rudder

necessary or

> is a paddle sufficient for steering?

The answer (as usual) is "It depends".

I've got a big 15'x32" beam kayak - an old canvas-on-frame design by Percy
Blandford (plans sold as BK20 by Clarkcraft.com). I have a very small sail
on it - a 12 sq ft lugsail, and though this is 'unexciting', the boat is
easily steered with a paddle. It won't go to windward, but it's a great way
of eating up the downwind miles in a relaxed way.

I think it was John Macgregor who suggested "Sail when you can, paddle when
you must".

On the related topic of stability - if you are AT ALL anxious about the
stability of a kayak and paddle on your own, don't stray any farther from
shore than you can comfortably swim. I do this all the time in my fast but
tippy kayak, and paddle for miles and miles without worrying myself or my
nearest and dearest.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

> Does anyone have experience sailing a kayak? Is a rudder

necessary or

> is a paddle sufficient for steering?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

>the geometry is truly
> amazing (and fascinating), as the shape of the hull is essentially
> defined by only eleven points.
>
> See:
>
>http://hallman.org/freeship/Diamond.jpg
>
> for a screenshot

and what a fascinating shape it is indeed! We have ourselves a
veritable design genius as our Hero :-) But it is boats and shapes
like this that make me sometimes awfully glad I'm fully occupied
with a boatbuilding project otherwise I would be forever building
till the end of my days trying to satisfy some deep down boat urge
(s)......
Thanks for posting those threeD images Bruce,they are bitter sweet
torture trials!

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan, who can easily see a Diamond,standing-by and ready
for quick deployment,parked up on the roof of Windermere right
beside Sweet Pea,Spur2,June Bug,Aury Punt,Field
Mouse,Brick,Nymph....oh the madness :-)

> I keep remembering your post saying that one of your kids in a double
> paddle canoe outpaced you in your row boat.

Actually, the kayak Kotick. Kayaks are fast, and a light weight kid
in a kayak can accelerate really fast (compared to a large adult) in
the same kayak (or rowboat).

I've spent a lot of time rowing my light weight rowboat alone (me
200lbs), and some time rowing the same boat fully loaded with perhaps
700lbs of people. The difference feels like driving a truck versus
driving a sports car.

The bottom is very interesting. I hadn't pictured it quite like that
from the in the water picture and description.

My 2 favorite choices in small boat for some time have been kayak, about
which I know little but they fascinate me, and a double ended, double
chine rowing dory with generous flare abeam and at the stems. Similar
to your boat in overall shape, if memory serves, but fewer chines, less
curvy and a little shorter to keep the weight down.

I keep remembering your post saying that one of your kids in a double
paddle canoe outpaced you in your row boat. I'm not out for speed, but
I can imagine at times wanting to get somewhere with minimal paddling
effort. Hence, the eternal, internal battle of compromise in boats...

Thanks, Bruce.

Bruce Hallman wrote:

>On 12/1/05, Sam Glasscock wrote:
>
>
>>Nels, I somehow missed the MAIB write-up. Can you
>>post any information about Diamond?
>>
>>
>
>Diamond is also known as "Crusing Kayak" and was written up in MAIB twice.
>
>I was just studing the lines in FREE!ship, and the geometry is truly
>amazing (and fascinating), as the shape of the hull is essentially
>defined by only eleven points.
>
>See:
>
>http://hallman.org/freeship/Diamond.jpg
>
>for a screenshot
>and
>
>http://hallman.org/freeship/Diamond.fbm
>
>for the FREE!ship file
>
>I would be concerned that a decked 19'6" x 1'11" boat would be a bit
>much to carry around single handed. My personal choice for rowing in
>a rough lake, walking distance from my house, would be my double ended
>rowboat "Cartoon 5".
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On 12/1/05, Sam Glasscock wrote:

> Nels, I somehow missed the MAIB write-up. Can you
> post any information about Diamond?

Diamond is also known as "Crusing Kayak" and was written up in MAIB twice.

I was just studing the lines in FREE!ship, and the geometry is truly
amazing (and fascinating), as the shape of the hull is essentially
defined by only eleven points.

See:

http://hallman.org/freeship/Diamond.jpg

for a screenshot
and

http://hallman.org/freeship/Diamond.fbm

for the FREE!ship file

I would be concerned that a decked 19'6" x 1'11" boat would be a bit
much to carry around single handed. My personal choice for rowing in
a rough lake, walking distance from my house, would be my double ended
rowboat "Cartoon 5".

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...>
wrote:

>
> Does anyone have experience sailing a kayak? Is a rudder

necessary or

> is a paddle sufficient for steering?

I have spent much of the last 20 years playing with sailing
kayaks for daysailing or microcruising. The answer to your
question is not simple. The individual boat and rig will
determine how easy it is to paddle steer. Most of the sailing
kayaks I have seen have rudders. Foot steering is really a pretty
nice way to control a boat.
I would be happy to answer questions if you like but most of what
I would have to say would be off topic on a Bolger list so feel free
to contact me back channel.
Mark

Thanks, Nels. That is long, but I personally like a high length to beam
ratio. It's interesting to me that Bolger says the boat is stiff on a
23" beam. Maybe my ignorance of kayaking is showing, but 23" doesn't
seem very wide to make a "stiff boat", if I'm interpreting stiff
correctly as initial stability. I'm not questioning the master, just my
understanding of what he said.

Nels wrote:

>File uploaded in a folder called "Diamond" over at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/
>
>It's a big high rez file for ease of printing out - but I will make a
>smaller version later on.
>
>Nels
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...> wrote:
>
>
>>Intriguing, but I'm not personally fond of "deflatable boats" as the
>>author calls them. No "leeway control device" allowed in the
>>competition! I guess gentlemen really don't sail to windward :).
>>
>>Nels wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

All good points. Thanks, Peter.

pvanderwaart wrote:

>>Would
>>you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type
>>Toto?
>>
>>
>
>Pardon me for joining the discussion in the middle.
>
>In boats small enough to carry, seaworthiness is based in the
>operator, not in the vessel. Even a sea kayak which is effectively
>immune from taking on water is dependent on the crew to keep the boat
>upright, or to recover from a roll. Training and judgement about when
>to stay ashore are more important the the differences from one boat
>to another.
>
>Stability depends very much on the crew. If he is sitting on the
>bottom of the boat, it is much more stable than if he is sitting up a
>few inches on some kind of seat. That said, I wonder if stability is
>the most important factor. In any kind sea, the boat can be endangered
>as much by spray and splash as by the threat of outright roll.
>
>Windsurfers go out in awful conditions, capize all the time, and most
>get back undrowned. You should emulate the factors that make it
>possible, which include 1) floatation for the boat so it can't swamp,
>2) a boat that can be re-entered after a capsize, 3) flotation for
>the crew (which saves a lot of energy even if the crew can swim), 4)
>attachment of the crew to the boat so they won't get separated, 5) wet
>or dry suit as appropriate to prevent hypothermia, 6) ability to
>control the rig so it doesn't prevent successful righting after a
>capsize. There may be other factors I have not mentioned.
>
>Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> Would
> you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type
> Toto?

Pardon me for joining the discussion in the middle.

In boats small enough to carry, seaworthiness is based in the
operator, not in the vessel. Even a sea kayak which is effectively
immune from taking on water is dependent on the crew to keep the boat
upright, or to recover from a roll. Training and judgement about when
to stay ashore are more important the the differences from one boat
to another.

Stability depends very much on the crew. If he is sitting on the
bottom of the boat, it is much more stable than if he is sitting up a
few inches on some kind of seat. That said, I wonder if stability is
the most important factor. In any kind sea, the boat can be endangered
as much by spray and splash as by the threat of outright roll.

Windsurfers go out in awful conditions, capize all the time, and most
get back undrowned. You should emulate the factors that make it
possible, which include 1) floatation for the boat so it can't swamp,
2) a boat that can be re-entered after a capsize, 3) flotation for
the crew (which saves a lot of energy even if the crew can swim), 4)
attachment of the crew to the boat so they won't get separated, 5) wet
or dry suit as appropriate to prevent hypothermia, 6) ability to
control the rig so it doesn't prevent successful righting after a
capsize. There may be other factors I have not mentioned.

Peter

File uploaded in a folder called "Diamond" over at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BolgerCartoons/

It's a big high rez file for ease of printing out - but I will make a
smaller version later on.

Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...> wrote:
>
> Intriguing, but I'm not personally fond of "deflatable boats" as the
> author calls them. No "leeway control device" allowed in the
> competition! I guess gentlemen really don't sail to windward :).
>
> Nels wrote:
>
>

Intriguing, but I'm not personally fond of "deflatable boats" as the
author calls them. No "leeway control device" allowed in the
competition! I guess gentlemen really don't sail to windward :).

Nels wrote:

>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...> wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, for me, too. :) I'm intrigued but can't find info. and didn't
>>have an MAIB subscription in Feb. Thanks.
>>
>>Sam Glasscock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Nels, I somehow missed the MAIB write-up. Can you
>>>post any information about Diamond?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>OK - I will scan and post ASAP.
>
>In the meantime here is another idea:-)
>
>http://www.watertribe.com/Magazine/August2003/Contents.aspx?
>ucPtr=Matt.ascx
>
>or:
>
>http://tinyurl.com/cdk26
>
>or:
>
>http://users.frii.com/uliasz/wayfarer/ec2004c.htm
>
>and click on the michigan quote.
>
>Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

A possibility I have considered.

I want to share the results of my own experiments. In 2003, I bought an
old Lowe 17' aluminum canoe. Made outriggers for it using 1.25" x .125"
alum. sq. tubing as the beam. It clamped onto the gunwhales with 5/16"
bolts through an 1/8" steel plate on top of the tubing and 1.25" x .125"
steel angle on the bottom. The holes in the angle were 3/8" in the
corner of the angle to allow pivot of the angle to press against both
the underside of the gunwhale and the underside of the beam. The legs
of the angle pointed up. 2 people could carry the boat by the beam
without it slipping in the least.

The outriggers were 5' lengths of 4" DWV PVC pipe with end caps. I
forget the astm number, but it was the very light weight stuff, about
half as thick as schedule 40. I was hesitant about it's durability, but
I was unable to break (or dent) it with the claw of a hammer hitting it
as hard as I could. The beam attached to rings by way of a 1/2" pivot
bolt, allowing for adjustment of height. If I did it again, I would fix
the height and attach the outriggers to the beam with 2 smaller bolts
for good rigidity. The pivot required a machined fit in order to hold
position without slipping. It was too complex and unnecessary.
Outriggers should ride above the water and only contact the water when
heeling. Height doesn't have to be precise or adjusted.

The rings were 3 circles of 5/16" aluminum round welded together and
split with 1/4" thick flat pieces welded on with a through bolt, forming
a clamp. The whole process was simple, though not suited for one w/out
alum. welding skills. The beam and attachment could be replicated with
wood and stainless steel clamps and the beam to boat clamps required no
welding, only cutting and drilling.

I also cut an end off the canoe, welded on an alum. plate and put a wood
transom on it. Also welded on a frame of 1" x .125" al. angle to form a
middle seat, attached to the side skin and the gunwhale, with triangular
bracing (VERY rigid). With a 4 hp gas motor on the back, the
outriggers, and 550 lb. of human cargo, that thing would fly. I also
added ribs in the bottom to make it more rigid. I was surprised at how
little flotation the outriggers needed. While in the boat, we couldn't
rock it hard enough to make the outriggers even half submerge. It went
through 2' rebounding boat wakes on a narrow river with no problems
whatsoever. The center to center beam of the outriggers was 6 feet. I
suspect more flotation might be necessary to withstand heeling forces
while under sail, but maybe not.

I stopped using it in it's full configuration because the complexity of
set up was frustrating and operating a motor, gas or electric on a 12"
wide transom behind a 16" wide seat was quite painful at times. The
motor was the biggest problem. A kayak with outriggers and a sail
sounds very appealing.

Does anyone have experience sailing a kayak? Is a rudder necessary or
is a paddle sufficient for steering?

bsdbatwing wrote:

>After reading your comments below one solution comes to mind
>though I do not know of a Bolger plan that fits. For the ultimate in
>seaworthiness, portability and versatility in your location you may
>want to consider a kayak with outriggers and sailing rig. Kayaks
>can be rendered comfortable with a good seat, and with the
>option of sail rig and outriggers fill the need of paddle and sail
>boat in an easily transported and rigged package. CLC is one
>company that offers plans for plywood kayak outriggers that
>could be adapted to most home built kayaks or canoes.
>http://www.clcboats.com/Sailing kayaks have crossed the
>Atlantic and traversed the NW Passage among other feats.
>Mark
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Jon,
>>
>>I agree. Every time I try to convince myself of the practicality of
>>electric propulsion, I conclude that as much as I wish it were
>>practical, it just isn't, at least not for me.
>>
>>I'm a big fan of the work on your web site. I'm considering
>>
>>
>something
>
>
>>similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual tiny boat
>>
>>
>desires,
>
>
>>weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a kayak and am
>>
>>
>hesitant to
>
>
>>go that route. There's no questioning their sea worthiness, but
>>
>>
>I do
>
>
>>question the comfort level. I relocated 3 months ago and am
>>
>>
>now 4
>
>
>>blocks from Lake Michigan. There is public parking 20 yards
>>
>>
>from the
>
>
>>water, but the only boat ramp charges a daily fee or yearly
>>
>>
>membership
>
>
>>and is used by big stink pot fishing boats. When I have a sail
>>
>>
>boat, it
>
>
>>will be the only one here. In any case, sail boat or no, I would
>>
>>
>like a
>
>
>>boat I can readily carry for, hopefully, daily use. The catch is the
>>big lake gets rough and the best alternative is 30 miles away.
>>
>>
>It seems
>
>
>>a shame to have to drive to paddle when the water is so close.
>>
>>
>Would
>
>
>>you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type
>>
>>
>Toto? Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...> wrote:

>
> Yes, for me, too. :) I'm intrigued but can't find info. and didn't
> have an MAIB subscription in Feb. Thanks.
>
> Sam Glasscock wrote:
>
> >Nels, I somehow missed the MAIB write-up. Can you
> >post any information about Diamond?
> >

OK - I will scan and post ASAP.

In the meantime here is another idea:-)

http://www.watertribe.com/Magazine/August2003/Contents.aspx?
ucPtr=Matt.ascx

or:

http://tinyurl.com/cdk26

or:

http://users.frii.com/uliasz/wayfarer/ec2004c.htm

and click on the michigan quote.

Nels

Yes, for me, too. :) I'm intrigued but can't find info. and didn't
have an MAIB subscription in Feb. Thanks.

Sam Glasscock wrote:

>Nels, I somehow missed the MAIB write-up. Can you
>post any information about Diamond?
>
>--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox
>><inspirfe@d...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jon,
>>>
>>>I'm a big fan of the work on your web site. I'm
>>>
>>>
>>considering
>>something
>>
>>
>>>similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual
>>>
>>>
>>tiny boat desires,
>>
>>
>>>weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a
>>>
>>>
>>kayak and am
>>hesitant to
>>
>>
>>>go that route. There's no questioning their sea
>>>
>>>
>>worthiness, but I
>>do
>>
>>
>>>question the comfort level.
>>>
>>>
>>Hi Wesley,
>>
>>Jon's Toto looks like a really capable rendering of
>>that model. I
>>can't help but consider what Jim Michalak would
>>suggest and would
>>consider sending the query to him if I were you. I
>>would also send
>>it to PCB&F ask what they would suggest.
>>
>>I have done a lot of canoeing in big water but not
>>much kayaking,
>>but a kayak is more capable than a canoe. Bracing
>>skill with the
>>paddle and good balance are required to stay
>>upright. You might also
>>want to make enquiries at your local kayak club if
>>there is one.
>>
>>Bolger's DIAMOND looks like a really innovative
>>design if one is
>>looking to go onto Lake Michigan. It is both
>>spacious and stable
>>compared to the usual sea type kayaks and like he
>>says it fills a
>>niche in the market that has not been addressed
>>before.
>>
>>Don't be deterred by it's length. It could be easily
>>transported by
>>a small two wheeled dolly which would store in the
>>hold when you are
>>paddling.
>>
>>http://tinyurl.com/cbhdw
>>
>>Of course if it paddles really easily, one would
>>want to sail it
>>right?
>>
>>http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html
>>
>>The plans are $50 from PCB&F and there is a write-up
>>in MAIB Feb
>>2005. The prototype was built by Bob Cushing of
>>Cazanovia NY and I
>>think Bruce Hallman built a model.
>>
>>And I want one:-)
>>
>>Nels
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________
>Yahoo! Music Unlimited
>Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
>http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Nels, I somehow missed the MAIB write-up. Can you
post any information about Diamond?

--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox
> <inspirfe@d...> wrote:
> >
> > Jon,
> >
> > I'm a big fan of the work on your web site. I'm
> considering
> something
> > similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual
> tiny boat desires,
> > weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a
> kayak and am
> hesitant to
> > go that route. There's no questioning their sea
> worthiness, but I
> do
> > question the comfort level.
>
> Hi Wesley,
>
> Jon's Toto looks like a really capable rendering of
> that model. I
> can't help but consider what Jim Michalak would
> suggest and would
> consider sending the query to him if I were you. I
> would also send
> it to PCB&F ask what they would suggest.
>
> I have done a lot of canoeing in big water but not
> much kayaking,
> but a kayak is more capable than a canoe. Bracing
> skill with the
> paddle and good balance are required to stay
> upright. You might also
> want to make enquiries at your local kayak club if
> there is one.
>
> Bolger's DIAMOND looks like a really innovative
> design if one is
> looking to go onto Lake Michigan. It is both
> spacious and stable
> compared to the usual sea type kayaks and like he
> says it fills a
> niche in the market that has not been addressed
> before.
>
> Don't be deterred by it's length. It could be easily
> transported by
> a small two wheeled dolly which would store in the
> hold when you are
> paddling.
>
>http://tinyurl.com/cbhdw
>
> Of course if it paddles really easily, one would
> want to sail it
> right?
>
>http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html
>
> The plans are $50 from PCB&F and there is a write-up
> in MAIB Feb
> 2005. The prototype was built by Bob Cushing of
> Cazanovia NY and I
> think Bruce Hallman built a model.
>
> And I want one:-)
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>

__________________________________
Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/

After reading your comments below one solution comes to mind
though I do not know of a Bolger plan that fits. For the ultimate in
seaworthiness, portability and versatility in your location you may
want to consider a kayak with outriggers and sailing rig. Kayaks
can be rendered comfortable with a good seat, and with the
option of sail rig and outriggers fill the need of paddle and sail
boat in an easily transported and rigged package. CLC is one
company that offers plans for plywood kayak outriggers that
could be adapted to most home built kayaks or canoes.
http://www.clcboats.com/Sailing kayaks have crossed the
Atlantic and traversed the NW Passage among other feats.
Mark

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...>
wrote:

>
> Jon,
>
> I agree. Every time I try to convince myself of the practicality of
> electric propulsion, I conclude that as much as I wish it were
> practical, it just isn't, at least not for me.
>
> I'm a big fan of the work on your web site. I'm considering

something

> similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual tiny boat

desires,

> weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a kayak and am

hesitant to

> go that route. There's no questioning their sea worthiness, but

I do

> question the comfort level. I relocated 3 months ago and am

now 4

> blocks from Lake Michigan. There is public parking 20 yards

from the

> water, but the only boat ramp charges a daily fee or yearly

membership

> and is used by big stink pot fishing boats. When I have a sail

boat, it

> will be the only one here. In any case, sail boat or no, I would

like a

> boat I can readily carry for, hopefully, daily use. The catch is the
> big lake gets rough and the best alternative is 30 miles away.

It seems

> a shame to have to drive to paddle when the water is so close.

Would

> you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type

Toto? Thanks.

Wes. Could I suggest you post your Toto question on the dwforum group
(Chuck had a Toto) or the Michalak group. Even better would be the
Duckworks plan listing

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/toto/index.htm

Bryant - who has a Toto laid out for cutting/building this spring.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@k...> wrote:

>
> Wesley,
>
> > I'm a big fan of the work on your web site.
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> > I'm considering something
> > similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual tiny boat desires,
> > weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a kayak and am hesitant
> to
> > go that route. There's no questioning their sea worthiness, but I do
> > question the comfort level.
>
> ...snip...
>
> > Would
> > you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type Toto?
> > Thanks.
>
> We've only had the Totos out a couple of times since I finished them
> this past summer. I'd say they have about 6 miles under them, all in
> relatively wake-free water and light winds. Because the water in the
> reservoir we boat at is always cold, I decked over the bow and stern
> sections to provide lots of positive bouyancy and hopefully allow a
> person to get back aboard after going over. I still have doubts about
> whether reentry of the boat from the water can actually be achieved,
> and the water is colder than I care to experiment in. If we take one
> up to McConaughy next summer, I'll try it there.
>
> Having said that, I haven't ever felt unstable in these canoes, and
> since your butt is right on the bottom, it's as stable as you can make
> it. The v-shaped entry certainly cuts through small waves and wakes
> with no fuss, and the truncated v-shaped midsection seems to take small
> waves from abeam pretty well. Nevertheless, we follow the shoreline
> fairly closely, and always wear PFDs - anyone using a boat like this
> should ALWAYS wear a PFD. Considering how cheap and fast these are to
> build, I wouldn't hestitate to try one out if I were you. They are fun
> and relaxing boats to use, and if it doesn't work out, your loss of
> time and money is minimal.
>
> Jon Kolb
> www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>

Not a Toto, but very similar, with same midships cross
section is Bolger's Payson Pirogue.

It was the most fun boat I ever had - light, stable
and trouble-free. I'm sorry I ever sold it.

Bill

PS Jim Michalak once had a Payson Pirogue, and I
strongly suspect it was his starting point for
designing Toto.

___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars -http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...> wrote:

>
> Jon,
>
> I'm a big fan of the work on your web site. I'm considering

something

> similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual tiny boat desires,
> weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a kayak and am

hesitant to

> go that route. There's no questioning their sea worthiness, but I

> question the comfort level.

Hi Wesley,

Jon's Toto looks like a really capable rendering of that model. I
can't help but consider what Jim Michalak would suggest and would
consider sending the query to him if I were you. I would also send
it to PCB&F ask what they would suggest.

I have done a lot of canoeing in big water but not much kayaking,
but a kayak is more capable than a canoe. Bracing skill with the
paddle and good balance are required to stay upright. You might also
want to make enquiries at your local kayak club if there is one.

Bolger's DIAMOND looks like a really innovative design if one is
looking to go onto Lake Michigan. It is both spacious and stable
compared to the usual sea type kayaks and like he says it fills a
niche in the market that has not been addressed before.

Don't be deterred by it's length. It could be easily transported by
a small two wheeled dolly which would store in the hold when you are
paddling.

http://tinyurl.com/cbhdw

Of course if it paddles really easily, one would want to sail it
right?

http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html

The plans are $50 from PCB&F and there is a write-up in MAIB Feb
2005. The prototype was built by Bob Cushing of Cazanovia NY and I
think Bruce Hallman built a model.

And I want one:-)

Nels

Wesley,

> I'm a big fan of the work on your web site.

Thanks very much!

> I'm considering something
> similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual tiny boat desires,
> weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a kayak and am hesitant

> go that route. There's no questioning their sea worthiness, but I do
> question the comfort level.

...snip...

> Would
> you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type Toto?
> Thanks.

We've only had the Totos out a couple of times since I finished them
this past summer. I'd say they have about 6 miles under them, all in
relatively wake-free water and light winds. Because the water in the
reservoir we boat at is always cold, I decked over the bow and stern
sections to provide lots of positive bouyancy and hopefully allow a
person to get back aboard after going over. I still have doubts about
whether reentry of the boat from the water can actually be achieved,
and the water is colder than I care to experiment in. If we take one
up to McConaughy next summer, I'll try it there.

Having said that, I haven't ever felt unstable in these canoes, and
since your butt is right on the bottom, it's as stable as you can make
it. The v-shaped entry certainly cuts through small waves and wakes
with no fuss, and the truncated v-shaped midsection seems to take small
waves from abeam pretty well. Nevertheless, we follow the shoreline
fairly closely, and always wear PFDs - anyone using a boat like this
should ALWAYS wear a PFD. Considering how cheap and fast these are to
build, I wouldn't hestitate to try one out if I were you. They are fun
and relaxing boats to use, and if it doesn't work out, your loss of
time and money is minimal.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

Gary, I think you got an ignorant, but safe, response. The only
thing the motor knows or cares about is how much load the prop is
providing. The motors do not have gears they are direct drive and have
props that are designed for them to operate within their design
parameters for load and rpm. The real danger for a motor is over loading
rather than over revving. If you have a light fast boat the prop could
and perhaps should have a greater pitch without overloading the motor.
The problem is really knowing how much more. If you knew the designed
amperage of your motor and had several props with greater pitches, you
could properly "prop it". Or just guess. Any larger gas engine motor
boat should be "prop'ed" with a bucket of props and a tach with the boat
loaded as it will be used. This allows the engine to run within its
design parameters. This essential step, done properly, can prevent the
destruction of a very expensive engine.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 01:54:02 -0000 "gbship" <gbship@...> writes:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rod Reynolds" <reynoldsrod@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I did not know that my quest would start such a thread.
> >
> > I just got that 1000w Honda genset on ebay so I will be able to
> report something after it
> > arrives.
> >
> Go, Rod! While I'd prefer a gas outboard, it would be a dull, dull
> world if we all agreed on everything.
>
> Now I want to pose a question that strains the limits of my nearly
> nonexistent technical knowledge. Are there newer trolling motors
> that
> are more speed than power oriented? My 30 lb thrust motor, which is
>
> about 8 years old, is like the amjority, intended to move fairly
> heavy fishing boats at a slow speed. They are geared to move heavy
> weights at a steady speed, sort of like the old Seagull gas
> outboats.
> I called up the manufacturer once and asked if there was a different
>
> prop available that would move lighter boats at a faster speed. The
>
> reply was that would strain the motor as they weren't designed to do
>
> that, and the motor would eventually burn out. The question: are
> there any newer motors that have or would take props that would push
>
> lighter boats at a higher speed? In technical terms, I think the
> props that come with the motor don't have much pitch, which gives
> them more power to move weight,but not much speed. A higher pitch
> might not move a heavy boat, but would move a light one much faster.
>
> I think such a prop might nearly double the speed on my Frolic2.
>
> I know there are electrics built that look and act that gas
> outboards, but they are fantastically expensive and I think about as
>
> heavy, if not heavier. So I like the idea of squeezing a little more
>
> speed out of an off the shelf trolling motor.. . .
>
> Gary Blankenship
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
> home page
>http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/_0TolB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rod Reynolds" <reynoldsrod@y...>
wrote:

>
> I did not know that my quest would start such a thread.
>
> I just got that 1000w Honda genset on ebay so I will be able to

report something after it

> arrives.
>

Go, Rod! While I'd prefer a gas outboard, it would be a dull, dull
world if we all agreed on everything.

Now I want to pose a question that strains the limits of my nearly
nonexistent technical knowledge. Are there newer trolling motors that
are more speed than power oriented? My 30 lb thrust motor, which is
about 8 years old, is like the amjority, intended to move fairly
heavy fishing boats at a slow speed. They are geared to move heavy
weights at a steady speed, sort of like the old Seagull gas outboats.
I called up the manufacturer once and asked if there was a different
prop available that would move lighter boats at a faster speed. The
reply was that would strain the motor as they weren't designed to do
that, and the motor would eventually burn out. The question: are
there any newer motors that have or would take props that would push
lighter boats at a higher speed? In technical terms, I think the
props that come with the motor don't have much pitch, which gives
them more power to move weight,but not much speed. A higher pitch
might not move a heavy boat, but would move a light one much faster.
I think such a prop might nearly double the speed on my Frolic2.

I know there are electrics built that look and act that gas
outboards, but they are fantastically expensive and I think about as
heavy, if not heavier. So I like the idea of squeezing a little more
speed out of an off the shelf trolling motor.. . .

Gary Blankenship

Jon,

I agree. Every time I try to convince myself of the practicality of
electric propulsion, I conclude that as much as I wish it were
practical, it just isn't, at least not for me.

I'm a big fan of the work on your web site. I'm considering something
similar to a Toto, but am torn between my usual tiny boat desires,
weight vs. sea worthiness. I've never used a kayak and am hesitant to
go that route. There's no questioning their sea worthiness, but I do
question the comfort level. I relocated 3 months ago and am now 4
blocks from Lake Michigan. There is public parking 20 yards from the
water, but the only boat ramp charges a daily fee or yearly membership
and is used by big stink pot fishing boats. When I have a sail boat, it
will be the only one here. In any case, sail boat or no, I would like a
boat I can readily carry for, hopefully, daily use. The catch is the
big lake gets rough and the best alternative is 30 miles away. It seems
a shame to have to drive to paddle when the water is so close. Would
you care to comment on the stability of the open canoe type Toto? Thanks.

adventures_in_astrophotography wrote:

>Hi Wesley,
>
>
>
>>I, myself, have contemplated electric only power during many late
>>
>>
>night
>
>
>>brainstorming sessions. I always steer away from it but, so far,
>>
>>
>always
>
>
>>come back to it. The allure for me is motoring without the motor
>>noise. There are many disadvantages, though. I want to share
>>
>>
>several
>
>
>>thoughts regarding issues mentioned in several parts of this
>>
>>
>thread.
>
>...snip...
>
>I did a lot of research on this propulsion method for several years,
>and the original requirements document we sent to PB&F for our
>liveaboard, Auriga, included all-electric auxilliary power. The
>allure for us was, in addition to quiet propulsion, the elimination
>of fuel tankage, lines, filters, oil changes, spares, and the ongoing
>cost of purchasing fuel, perhaps in third-world ports where the
>quality of the diesel oil might be suspect. The initial cost of the
>electric system would have been likely higher than a diesel
>installation, but the recurring costs would have been much less in
>our calculations.
>
>PB&F, while fully in favor of doing away with all the unpleasant
>aspects of internal combustion engines, responded with scenarios that
>convinced us that for long-range cruising at least, the electric
>propulsion technology just wasn't far enough along. The principal
>problem was the recharging time lag, compounded by the relatively
>short range that could be reasonably achieved before a recharge was
>necessary. The scenarios mentioned included illness far at sea where
>the best chance required motoring or motorsailing straight to the
>nearest port. Another was the need to leave some port right now, but
>the battery banks are spent. It all made sense, and we've agreed to
>go with a Deutz air-cooled diesel instead, but I dearly wish the
>electric solution was more feasible. It might still be for coastal
>cruising boats.
>
>Jon Kolb
>www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Wesley,

> I, myself, have contemplated electric only power during many late

night

> brainstorming sessions. I always steer away from it but, so far,

always

> come back to it. The allure for me is motoring without the motor
> noise. There are many disadvantages, though. I want to share

several

> thoughts regarding issues mentioned in several parts of this

thread.

...snip...

I did a lot of research on this propulsion method for several years,
and the original requirements document we sent to PB&F for our
liveaboard, Auriga, included all-electric auxilliary power. The
allure for us was, in addition to quiet propulsion, the elimination
of fuel tankage, lines, filters, oil changes, spares, and the ongoing
cost of purchasing fuel, perhaps in third-world ports where the
quality of the diesel oil might be suspect. The initial cost of the
electric system would have been likely higher than a diesel
installation, but the recurring costs would have been much less in
our calculations.

PB&F, while fully in favor of doing away with all the unpleasant
aspects of internal combustion engines, responded with scenarios that
convinced us that for long-range cruising at least, the electric
propulsion technology just wasn't far enough along. The principal
problem was the recharging time lag, compounded by the relatively
short range that could be reasonably achieved before a recharge was
necessary. The scenarios mentioned included illness far at sea where
the best chance required motoring or motorsailing straight to the
nearest port. Another was the need to leave some port right now, but
the battery banks are spent. It all made sense, and we've agreed to
go with a Deutz air-cooled diesel instead, but I dearly wish the
electric solution was more feasible. It might still be for coastal
cruising boats.

Jon Kolb
www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@y...>
wrote:

>
> I think I saw that bit, and may have it on tape somewhere. Was it an
> English kids show, about magic, witches and such? Did'nt Lestat
> carrying a treasure chest get towed through rapids by a flying
> broomstick? (Shallow rapids - ouch, I winced.) I looked for the

name,

> but could not see it.
>
> Graeme

Yup! The boat belonged to the wizard and one of the student witches
was using it to hide her cat,which was not black as per school
rules.One of the teachers supects there is something going on and so
checks out the boat only to slip on a fish fillet and fall unconcious
in the cockpit.
Next,some of the less pleasent student witches decide to untie the
wizzards boat,which they know harbours a white(yikes!) cat, in an
attempt to have the little witch outted.
Off goes the boat merrily down stream toward some awesome falls when
one of the flying witches notices the boat adrift.Landing in the
cockpit,she is startled to see one of the teachers unconcious and
tries to start the motor. As luck would have it,the engine does NOT
start and so the little witch secures a line to her broom and sends it
flying up-stream.At the very last minute,the boat spins away from the
falls and is towed up stream.The only problem however is that the
young witch has not completely mastered Broom flying and Control
101,which leads to the boat being towed rignt into a pile of rocks
whereupon a secret magic treasure chest is discovered........

I could go on but I fear y'all couldn't handle the tension :-)

The director had me pull the mizzen since it would interfer with some
of the shoots.They also removed the name,despite liking it, for fear
of running into legal problems with Anne Rice and her famous vampire
Lestat.

It was a fantastic experience,paid very,very,well indeed and a grand
excuse to get out of the city for a few weeks :-)

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,ex owner/builder of the Micro LESTAT who now is in the
able hands of Nels the prairre pirate..arrrrgh matey!

>

> Micro Lestat was fitted with a 20 hp Merc for use in a river with
> significant rapids, for the shooting of a TV series he appeared in:-)

I think I saw that bit, and may have it on tape somewhere. Was it an
English kids show, about magic, witches and such? Did'nt Lestat
carrying a treasure chest get towed through rapids by a flying
broomstick? (Shallow rapids - ouch, I winced.) I looked for the name,
but could not see it.

Graeme

They do make 12 sets, using Alternators, They can be made to run very
quietly at slow speeds as they don't have to give the 60 cycles. I
talked to one manufacturer who had a customer use one in a remote site
at Cape Yakataga. He said he had it running at slow speed 24 hours a day
into a battery bank at a bout 10 amps and the variable demand was
handled by the batteries acting like an accumulator.

Here is one manufacturer that I found with a quick search, it is kind of
spendy, but you get a watermaker out of the deal.

http://www.watermakerstore.com/Generators/Generators.html#W&P

HJ

chaemeocyparis wrote:

>---snip---
> The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them really good boat companions compared
>to open, aircooled engines. If only somebody made a self-blimped 12-volt genset to charge
>yr battery bank efficiently, but I've never heard of one. As for 110, I'm phasing out of 110
>altogether because 12v lighting and appliances have improved so dramatically in recent
>years.
>Good luck. Eric
>
>
>
>

Sorry about that. The case is designed to contain most of the sound -- really good
generators like those on movie sets are almost perfectly silent. Just a fancy expression for
soundproofing, implying rather more than merely muffling. Eric

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
>
> what does 'self-blimped' mean?
>
> PL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: chaemeocyparis
> Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:58 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Trolling motor for Micro Take 3
>
> ...The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them really good boat
> companions compared
> to open, aircooled engines.
>

Without seeing some hard data, I'm not convinced that the two-stroke is more efficient --
something like 1/3 of the fuel burned by a two-stroke goes straight into the atmosphere.

But even if the two-stroke is more efficient, that doesn't mean it's more environmentally
friendly. Running a small two-stroke outboard for SEVEN hours will result in more air
pollution than driving a typical car for 100,000 miles.

Some of the newer two-strokes are much cleaner, but that's try only for larger HP engines.

Stephen Paskey

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Philip Smith <pbs@w...> wrote:
>
> You lose a great deal of efficiency and use up a lot
> more fuel to convert chemical energy to electrical
> energy and then convert that to mechanical thrust.
> You'd be Btus ahead to stick with your two stroke. No
> matter how old and inefficient your two stroke is
> probably more efficient than the generator to trolling
> motor route.

I suspect that I'm fighting old fights, but...

You lose a great deal of efficiency and use up a lot
more fuel to convert chemical energy to electrical
energy and then convert that to mechanical thrust.
You'd be Btus ahead to stick with your two stroke. No
matter how old and inefficient your two stroke is
probably more efficient than the generator to trolling
motor route.

However if silence is your goal even a new low
horsepower four stroke is probably noisier than one of
the quiet generators. Trolling motors are
substantially silent.

All boating consists of compromises of compromises.

Phil Smith

> It all depends on the conditions one encounters.

Yes, plus it depends on your time frame and attitude.
Consider the sport of outsmarting the wind and tide.
And/or your willingness to wait for favorable
conditions while reading a good book.

Excellent information Wesley. Especiall re: 120 vac on board a small
boat.

For those interested in this thread there is a discussion group that
goes into the technical aspects of electric propulsion.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/

I would agree with Bruce that Phil Bolger might suggest a yuloh,
while the Friends section of the partnership might also suggest some
strong back-up power. It all depends on the conditions one
encounters.

In discussions regarding the off-shore capability of the Micro or
Long Micro (Navigator versions), it was suggested that a Yamaha T9.9
might not be too much power on a LM in a storm near a lee shore.

Micro Lestat was fitted with a 20 hp Merc for use in a river with
significant rapids, for the shooting of a TV series he appeared in:-)

I believe PCB&F's basic philosophy is to have a bit of available
power in reserve running at the lower end rather than having a small
motor wide open. Better mileage, less wear and less noise.

Also because these boats are not high tech upwind performers, it is
felt the trade-off is that one might have to fire up the motor a bit
sooner than the "competition". What you save on sailing hardware you
can invest in a good efficient motor. (I think some around 10 hp now
have optional 10-12 amp alternators.)

Reading the recent article on DELEWARE is a case in point. That is a
boat I thought might be great going electric with until I read the
article again.

Cheers, Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@d...> wrote:
>
> I, myself, have contemplated electric only power during many late
night
> brainstorming sessions. I always steer away from it but, so far,
always
> come back to it. The allure for me is motoring without the motor
> noise. There are many disadvantages, though. I want to share
several
> thoughts regarding issues mentioned in several parts of this
thread.
>
> 120 v is a lot of potential for putting in the water. It can be
done,
> but be careful. Also, on a boat things sometimes get tossed
around
> unexpectedly. It would be very prudent to cover all wires in
rigid
> conduit to protect them from damage and subsequently the boat and
human
> cargo from resultant damage. A 120 volt starter motor was
mentioned.
> Starter motors are built light by eliminating windings. They have
a
> short duty cycle, because that's all they need. Submersed in
water
> might keep one cool for continuous use and might not.
>
> Consistently drawing a battery down to 25% of charge will
significantly
> shorten its life versus drawing to no less than 50% of charge.
> Likewise, someone mentioned using a genset too small to vigorously
> charge the battery bank. A battery in need of charge benefits
from a
> strong current (5-10 amps in 27 size batteries seems sufficient).
A
> battery that's only ever "trickle" charged and sometimes is
drained is
> susceptible to oxide glaze on the lead plates, shortening life
span.
> Also, someone mentioned fast charging a dead battery to get home.
Deep
> cycle batteries have a maximum recommended charge rate, given (I
> believe) as a percentage of total charge per hour. I don't
remember
> specific numbers for sure and so won't quote any, but it isn't
nearly
> fast enough to get home "right now" when there's no wind and no
juice in
> the batteries :). Running the motor directly off the generator,
without
> the battery in the circuit, might be an option in such conditions.
>
> Another thing to consider is maximum power needed in *rough*
> conditions. A 30 lb. thrust motor may be fine for a boat to
cruise at
> 75% of hull speed when the water is smooth, but may not make
forward
> progress heading back after weather conditions have changed for
the
> worse or even moving into a tide current. The gentleman with the
all
> electric Micro could perhaps attest to specifics about this. In
> general, it's something to consider. All electric is very
appealing,
> but lack of reserve power is one of the major issues that makes me
> hesitant, personally.
>
> One more thing :). If I were to implement all electric power,
with or
> without a generator, I would definitely use a Pulse Width
Modulation
> variable power controller. High end motors are made with them
built
> in. One could also be purchased or built and added to a
potentiometer
> controlled motor with the switch on it set on max. power. The
MinnKota
> 30 lb. Endura is not PWM controlled. The 4 lower speeds have
resistors
> in series with the motor to reduce the power to the motor, which
> translates to power lost to heat in the resistors. Not a huge
loss,
> but, for me, every bit helps when dealing with such small power
reserves
> to begin with.
>
>
> Rod Reynolds wrote:
>
> >I did not know that my quest would start such a thread.
> >
> >I just got that 1000w Honda genset on ebay so I will be able to
report something after it
> >arrives.
> >
> >As to some questions posed.
> >
> >Original Micro. No bunks, just a sliding hatch, no tilting mast.
It was made to 1991 era
> >plans with no real mods since launching. No line hardware to
speak of, just a lot of clove
> >hitches and squareknots.
> >
> >In my line of work I deal with gel cell power wheelchair
batteries so I have a set of used 22
> >NF's that I will try out. The question at this point is use them
singly or hooked up in
> >parallel. Any thoughts?
> >
> >Dual use. Yes, I had a ShopSmith machine for a time. That's a 5
use woodworking
> >machine. I am into multi-use things.
> >
> >I have been given a Minn Kota 36# thrust trolling motor to play
with.
> >
> >Costs. As you can see from above, other than the cost of the
genset my costs are minimal
> >at this time. The genset can help out at home as was pointed out.
> >
> >I have not ruled out a 110 VAC powered device.
> >
> >Lastly, I am keeping my 2 hp 2 stroke till the dust settles.
> >
> >Oh, I like cold weather sailing so I hope to post some results
sometime in Dec.
> >
> >Rod
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging dead horses
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >- Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I, myself, have contemplated electric only power during many late night
brainstorming sessions. I always steer away from it but, so far, always
come back to it. The allure for me is motoring without the motor
noise. There are many disadvantages, though. I want to share several
thoughts regarding issues mentioned in several parts of this thread.

120 v is a lot of potential for putting in the water. It can be done,
but be careful. Also, on a boat things sometimes get tossed around
unexpectedly. It would be very prudent to cover all wires in rigid
conduit to protect them from damage and subsequently the boat and human
cargo from resultant damage. A 120 volt starter motor was mentioned.
Starter motors are built light by eliminating windings. They have a
short duty cycle, because that's all they need. Submersed in water
might keep one cool for continuous use and might not.

Consistently drawing a battery down to 25% of charge will significantly
shorten its life versus drawing to no less than 50% of charge.
Likewise, someone mentioned using a genset too small to vigorously
charge the battery bank. A battery in need of charge benefits from a
strong current (5-10 amps in 27 size batteries seems sufficient). A
battery that's only ever "trickle" charged and sometimes is drained is
susceptible to oxide glaze on the lead plates, shortening life span.
Also, someone mentioned fast charging a dead battery to get home. Deep
cycle batteries have a maximum recommended charge rate, given (I
believe) as a percentage of total charge per hour. I don't remember
specific numbers for sure and so won't quote any, but it isn't nearly
fast enough to get home "right now" when there's no wind and no juice in
the batteries :). Running the motor directly off the generator, without
the battery in the circuit, might be an option in such conditions.

Another thing to consider is maximum power needed in *rough*
conditions. A 30 lb. thrust motor may be fine for a boat to cruise at
75% of hull speed when the water is smooth, but may not make forward
progress heading back after weather conditions have changed for the
worse or even moving into a tide current. The gentleman with the all
electric Micro could perhaps attest to specifics about this. In
general, it's something to consider. All electric is very appealing,
but lack of reserve power is one of the major issues that makes me
hesitant, personally.

One more thing :). If I were to implement all electric power, with or
without a generator, I would definitely use a Pulse Width Modulation
variable power controller. High end motors are made with them built
in. One could also be purchased or built and added to a potentiometer
controlled motor with the switch on it set on max. power. The MinnKota
30 lb. Endura is not PWM controlled. The 4 lower speeds have resistors
in series with the motor to reduce the power to the motor, which
translates to power lost to heat in the resistors. Not a huge loss,
but, for me, every bit helps when dealing with such small power reserves
to begin with.

Rod Reynolds wrote:

>I did not know that my quest would start such a thread.
>
>I just got that 1000w Honda genset on ebay so I will be able to report something after it
>arrives.
>
>As to some questions posed.
>
>Original Micro. No bunks, just a sliding hatch, no tilting mast. It was made to 1991 era
>plans with no real mods since launching. No line hardware to speak of, just a lot of clove
>hitches and squareknots.
>
>In my line of work I deal with gel cell power wheelchair batteries so I have a set of used 22
>NF's that I will try out. The question at this point is use them singly or hooked up in
>parallel. Any thoughts?
>
>Dual use. Yes, I had a ShopSmith machine for a time. That's a 5 use woodworking
>machine. I am into multi-use things.
>
>I have been given a Minn Kota 36# thrust trolling motor to play with.
>
>Costs. As you can see from above, other than the cost of the genset my costs are minimal
>at this time. The genset can help out at home as was pointed out.
>
>I have not ruled out a 110 VAC powered device.
>
>Lastly, I am keeping my 2 hp 2 stroke till the dust settles.
>
>Oh, I like cold weather sailing so I hope to post some results sometime in Dec.
>
>Rod
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

what does 'self-blimped' mean?

PL

-----Original Message-----
From: chaemeocyparis
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:58 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Trolling motor for Micro Take 3

...The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them really good boat
companions compared
to open, aircooled engines.

I've been using a small Honda genset for many years and it's most satisfactory within its
limits -- to wit:
Mine is a actually a 30-volt generator driving an on-board inverter to give 110-volt AC.
The 12 volt side is a separate winding that can't be used at the same time as the 30 volt. The
12 volt is very low amperage, about two amps if memory serves. That part is in the owner's
handbook -- the generator/ alternator nature of the beast only becomes apparent when you
take it apart.
The small Hondas are self-blimped to make them really good boat companions compared
to open, aircooled engines. If only somebody made a self-blimped 12-volt genset to charge
yr battery bank efficiently, but I've never heard of one. As for 110, I'm phasing out of 110
altogether because 12v lighting and appliances have improved so dramatically in recent
years.
Good luck. Eric

I did not know that my quest would start such a thread.

I just got that 1000w Honda genset on ebay so I will be able to report something after it
arrives.

As to some questions posed.

Original Micro. No bunks, just a sliding hatch, no tilting mast. It was made to 1991 era
plans with no real mods since launching. No line hardware to speak of, just a lot of clove
hitches and squareknots.

In my line of work I deal with gel cell power wheelchair batteries so I have a set of used 22
NF's that I will try out. The question at this point is use them singly or hooked up in
parallel. Any thoughts?

Dual use. Yes, I had a ShopSmith machine for a time. That's a 5 use woodworking
machine. I am into multi-use things.

I have been given a Minn Kota 36# thrust trolling motor to play with.

Costs. As you can see from above, other than the cost of the genset my costs are minimal
at this time. The genset can help out at home as was pointed out.

I have not ruled out a 110 VAC powered device.

Lastly, I am keeping my 2 hp 2 stroke till the dust settles.

Oh, I like cold weather sailing so I hope to post some results sometime in Dec.

Rod