Re: [bolger] Re: Gap in plans
Luna is a modified AS29 sort of.
HJ
Nels wrote:
HJ
Nels wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
> Have you seen this site?
>
>http://www.alaska.net/~mzeiger/Boat_Building.html
>
> Shows some inspiring photos of a Martha Jane and "Luna" which is
> about the same size as an AS29.
>
> I would not want to trailer an AS29, unless I had access to a 30
> foot gooseneck trailer and a deisel truck. (Which I have actually:-)
>
> Nels
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...>
> wrote:
>
>> It is never too late.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi Joe,
Have you seen this site?
http://www.alaska.net/~mzeiger/Boat_Building.html
Shows some inspiring photos of a Martha Jane and "Luna" which is
about the same size as an AS29.
I would not want to trailer an AS29, unless I had access to a 30
foot gooseneck trailer and a deisel truck. (Which I have actually:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...>
wrote:
Have you seen this site?
http://www.alaska.net/~mzeiger/Boat_Building.html
Shows some inspiring photos of a Martha Jane and "Luna" which is
about the same size as an AS29.
I would not want to trailer an AS29, unless I had access to a 30
foot gooseneck trailer and a deisel truck. (Which I have actually:-)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...>
wrote:
>
> It is never too late.
>
It is never too late.
I have long admired the Red Zinger. Seems like most of the boats in
BWAOM, Mr. Bolger says things about the designs that have discouraged
me from further investigation. His comments about the RZ have been
that the panels do not form the tight curves and should be built
strip plank in that section. From the book, I have no idea as to
whether he has updated the plans or not.
I like the Jessie Cooper too, but am afraid that the comments about
the daggerboard and mast have discouraged me there. He claims to
have solved these problems with the AS29, but I am afraid that it is
a huge leap beyond as a project??? Maybe I should consider it?
Anyone have any ideas as to trailer weight? All I can find is
displacement, and it is WAY up there.
I must admit that I am drawn to boats like the JC and AS29 because of
their beaching qualities and no keel (sits upright when beached). I
have been looking at Michalik's Cormorant, because it is 31' and
supposed to weigh in at about 2,500# dry. I think it is a small
31'er due to the fine bow...The AS29 seems to be a big 29'er..due to
its plumb sides, high sheer and plumb/wide bow.
Total comfusion! Would appreciate comments on the AS29 and Jessie
Cooper (has there been a redesign to solve the daggerboard and mast
problems)?
I dont have a fax machine. Thats been another barrier to moving
forward with any correspondance with Mr Bolger. Glad that this forum
is here...he should pay you guys to be here. LOL
Joe
I have long admired the Red Zinger. Seems like most of the boats in
BWAOM, Mr. Bolger says things about the designs that have discouraged
me from further investigation. His comments about the RZ have been
that the panels do not form the tight curves and should be built
strip plank in that section. From the book, I have no idea as to
whether he has updated the plans or not.
I like the Jessie Cooper too, but am afraid that the comments about
the daggerboard and mast have discouraged me there. He claims to
have solved these problems with the AS29, but I am afraid that it is
a huge leap beyond as a project??? Maybe I should consider it?
Anyone have any ideas as to trailer weight? All I can find is
displacement, and it is WAY up there.
I must admit that I am drawn to boats like the JC and AS29 because of
their beaching qualities and no keel (sits upright when beached). I
have been looking at Michalik's Cormorant, because it is 31' and
supposed to weigh in at about 2,500# dry. I think it is a small
31'er due to the fine bow...The AS29 seems to be a big 29'er..due to
its plumb sides, high sheer and plumb/wide bow.
Total comfusion! Would appreciate comments on the AS29 and Jessie
Cooper (has there been a redesign to solve the daggerboard and mast
problems)?
I dont have a fax machine. Thats been another barrier to moving
forward with any correspondance with Mr Bolger. Glad that this forum
is here...he should pay you guys to be here. LOL
Joe
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...>
> wrote:
> >
> > There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8'
> wide
> > and light displacement.
> >
> Hi Joe,
>
> I am also late joining this discussion so am not sure if anyone has
> mentiond "Red Zinger", as a Bolger design that may fit into your
> wish list?
>
> There are some great photos here - near the bottom of the listing
of
> boats for sale and it is also written up in BWAOM.
>
>http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale2.php
>
> The other design that I am quite certain would meet your
> requirements and is much less complicated to build is Long Micro. I
> feel it could easily be adapted to have quarter berths, like Red
> Zinger and a roomy double birth forward, especially if it was built
> with a Navigator type pilothouse.
>
> A Long Micro Navigator at 19'6" has interior space equivalent to
> almost a 30 footer I would suggest. It also has the advantage of a
> tablernacled mast that lowers easily for trailering. The tablenacle
> may have to be extended a bit to raise the mast height when lowered
> in order to rest level on the pilothouse, but that would be about
> the only modification one would have to make.
>
> Awhile ago a made a request to PCB&F about a Navigator re-design
for
> Long Micro but unfortunately they were too booked to consider it at
> that time. However it would be easy to do I would think just by
> using a set of Micro Navigator blueprints that are already
available
> from Bolger for $50 and simply enlarge the pilothouse dimensions to
> your own requirements.
>
>
> I posted some sketches of possible options at the Bolger3 files in
a
> folder entitled "Long Micro".
>
> Nels
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...>
wrote:
I am also late joining this discussion so am not sure if anyone has
mentiond "Red Zinger", as a Bolger design that may fit into your
wish list?
There are some great photos here - near the bottom of the listing of
boats for sale and it is also written up in BWAOM.
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale2.php
The other design that I am quite certain would meet your
requirements and is much less complicated to build is Long Micro. I
feel it could easily be adapted to have quarter berths, like Red
Zinger and a roomy double birth forward, especially if it was built
with a Navigator type pilothouse.
A Long Micro Navigator at 19'6" has interior space equivalent to
almost a 30 footer I would suggest. It also has the advantage of a
tablernacled mast that lowers easily for trailering. The tablenacle
may have to be extended a bit to raise the mast height when lowered
in order to rest level on the pilothouse, but that would be about
the only modification one would have to make.
Awhile ago a made a request to PCB&F about a Navigator re-design for
Long Micro but unfortunately they were too booked to consider it at
that time. However it would be easy to do I would think just by
using a set of Micro Navigator blueprints that are already available
from Bolger for $50 and simply enlarge the pilothouse dimensions to
your own requirements.
I posted some sketches of possible options at the Bolger3 files in a
folder entitled "Long Micro".
Nels
wrote:
>wide
> There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8'
> and light displacement.Hi Joe,
>
I am also late joining this discussion so am not sure if anyone has
mentiond "Red Zinger", as a Bolger design that may fit into your
wish list?
There are some great photos here - near the bottom of the listing of
boats for sale and it is also written up in BWAOM.
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/forsale2.php
The other design that I am quite certain would meet your
requirements and is much less complicated to build is Long Micro. I
feel it could easily be adapted to have quarter berths, like Red
Zinger and a roomy double birth forward, especially if it was built
with a Navigator type pilothouse.
A Long Micro Navigator at 19'6" has interior space equivalent to
almost a 30 footer I would suggest. It also has the advantage of a
tablernacled mast that lowers easily for trailering. The tablenacle
may have to be extended a bit to raise the mast height when lowered
in order to rest level on the pilothouse, but that would be about
the only modification one would have to make.
Awhile ago a made a request to PCB&F about a Navigator re-design for
Long Micro but unfortunately they were too booked to consider it at
that time. However it would be easy to do I would think just by
using a set of Micro Navigator blueprints that are already available
from Bolger for $50 and simply enlarge the pilothouse dimensions to
your own requirements.
I posted some sketches of possible options at the Bolger3 files in a
folder entitled "Long Micro".
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...> wrote:
Michalak has a 26x7 boat named Viola 26
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/viola26/index.htm
No pics, so it may not have been built yet.
Don
>wide
> There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8'
> and light displacement.Joe,
Michalak has a 26x7 boat named Viola 26
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/viola26/index.htm
No pics, so it may not have been built yet.
Don
I think you can have relatively light displacement in some of the
Bolger designs suggested - 25' Chebacco and St. Valery in particular -
but, you will only get sitting headroom at best. Certainly the
Chebacco interior can be reconfigured for a double berth and I would
guess St. Valery could also.
Other possibilities are Long Micro and Seabird '86. LM would also be
easy to configure with a double berth - Seabird possibly, but the mast
kind of gets in the way.
I think headroom is the biggest limitation. Small sailboats with
generous headroom are heavily ballasted - I think of Flicka as a good
example, this boat has 1800# of lead in the keel, 5' 11" headroom,
6000# displacement and is almost two feet shorter than a 20" Chebacco
on the water line.
You just can't have everything.
Paul
Bolger designs suggested - 25' Chebacco and St. Valery in particular -
but, you will only get sitting headroom at best. Certainly the
Chebacco interior can be reconfigured for a double berth and I would
guess St. Valery could also.
Other possibilities are Long Micro and Seabird '86. LM would also be
easy to configure with a double berth - Seabird possibly, but the mast
kind of gets in the way.
I think headroom is the biggest limitation. Small sailboats with
generous headroom are heavily ballasted - I think of Flicka as a good
example, this boat has 1800# of lead in the keel, 5' 11" headroom,
6000# displacement and is almost two feet shorter than a 20" Chebacco
on the water line.
You just can't have everything.
Paul
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...> wrote:
>
> There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8' wide
> and light displacement.
>
> I really want double berth accomodations. Martha Jane, Birdwatcher,
> Etc. all have transom berths and are too narrow for my liking. The old
> Jessie Cooper seems about right, other than the negative aspects of
> rigging as a trailer sailer, etc. The Black Skimmer has not enough
> headroom. You also seem to jump from Disp. of around 2000# to 5000#
> rather quickly in this size range.
>
> This gap in plans is not unique to Bolger. Most 24' sailboats are
> heavy displacement. I am considering John Welsford's Penguin, as it
> comes as close to my requirments as I have seen. He is working on a 26
> foot model but that has double the displacement and weight of the 21'
> penguin. Been poking around looking at less conventional boats and
> cant find anything that is larger that doesn't weigh a LOT more.
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> Joe
>
Joe--I've had good luck in stretching existing designs lengthwise while
keeping the same beam and depth. (To be precisely accurate, I commissioned
a designer to stretch one of his designs.) However, this doesn't address
your requirement for more beam. Increasing length and beam necessarily
increases the volume/displacement/cost/weight of the boat and, since you are
talking cubes, relatively modest increases in length and beam produce great
increases in volume. Sorry, but that is the way it is.
John T
keeping the same beam and depth. (To be precisely accurate, I commissioned
a designer to stretch one of his designs.) However, this doesn't address
your requirement for more beam. Increasing length and beam necessarily
increases the volume/displacement/cost/weight of the boat and, since you are
talking cubes, relatively modest increases in length and beam produce great
increases in volume. Sorry, but that is the way it is.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: [bolger] Gap in plans
> There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8' wide
> and light displacement.
>
> I really want double berth accomodations. Martha Jane, Birdwatcher,
> Etc. all have transom berths and are too narrow for my liking. The old
> Jessie Cooper seems about right, other than the negative aspects of
> rigging as a trailer sailer, etc. The Black Skimmer has not enough
> headroom. You also seem to jump from Disp. of around 2000# to 5000#
> rather quickly in this size range.
>
> This gap in plans is not unique to Bolger. Most 24' sailboats are
> heavy displacement. I am considering John Welsford's Penguin, as it
> comes as close to my requirments as I have seen. He is working on a 26
> foot model but that has double the displacement and weight of the 21'
> penguin. Been poking around looking at less conventional boats and
> cant find anything that is larger that doesn't weigh a LOT more.
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 - Release Date: 12/2/2005
>
>
Joe --
I built a Cormorant and I love it. Absolutely love it. But even with
the flexibility of water ballast it is a lot of boat to tow. Our
Nissan Pathfinder is rated with a 5000 lb. towing capacity, and
between the 2500 lbs. of boat and maybe 400 lbs. of gear, food, and
water, plus the 1100 lb. trailer, we're pulling around 4000 lbs. It
all works though, and it's all worth it, I think. You can really bring
a lot of food and gear and stay out a long time in relative comfort,
even with a family of four . . . .
Have you looked at the 25' lapstrake Chebacco?
And of course the 25' version of Cormorant -- Caprice. Not 8' wide,
but it's a good-sized boat AND easy to tow.
Good luck!
Garth
I built a Cormorant and I love it. Absolutely love it. But even with
the flexibility of water ballast it is a lot of boat to tow. Our
Nissan Pathfinder is rated with a 5000 lb. towing capacity, and
between the 2500 lbs. of boat and maybe 400 lbs. of gear, food, and
water, plus the 1100 lb. trailer, we're pulling around 4000 lbs. It
all works though, and it's all worth it, I think. You can really bring
a lot of food and gear and stay out a long time in relative comfort,
even with a family of four . . . .
Have you looked at the 25' lapstrake Chebacco?
And of course the 25' version of Cormorant -- Caprice. Not 8' wide,
but it's a good-sized boat AND easy to tow.
Good luck!
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@h...> wrote:
>
> Displacement is less of a concern than trailering weight. Lead is
> cheap compared to wood and epoxy. Light construction seems to offer
> the most boat for the money.
>
> Michalak's Cormorant @ 31 x 8 is supposed to weigh 2,500# on the
> trailer and takes 1,000# of water ballist. I just dont know much about
> these designs? Probably not the forum to discuss...but it is an
> example of larger size and low towing weight.
>
> Joe
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> >
> > > There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8'
> wide
> > > and light displacement.
> >
> > I figure: Any displacment vessel, 24' x 8', would need considerable
> > amounts of ballast to float down to decent flow lines, hence the high
> > displacement.
> >
> > A light displacement boat this size would need to be very flat
> > bottomed, and not have good flow lines, I think.
> >
>
Hi Joe
Jeff Gilbert has done some work on some 24' by 8' asymmetric
Catamaran designs that might work. They may be close to his
20' by 8' Alley Cat design:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jgbuilders
Look in photos.
Jeff Gilbert has done some work on some 24' by 8' asymmetric
Catamaran designs that might work. They may be close to his
20' by 8' Alley Cat design:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jgbuilders
Look in photos.
In addition to previous comments, a 20 footer is small enough for live
ballast to be important, but a 25 footer really has to be ballasted to
take care of herself. Besides, when the client finally says, I guess
we don't have to trailer, he takes a deep breath and adds a ton to the
displacement.
You can be sure of PCB's mantra:
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
...
ballast to be important, but a 25 footer really has to be ballasted to
take care of herself. Besides, when the client finally says, I guess
we don't have to trailer, he takes a deep breath and adds a ton to the
displacement.
You can be sure of PCB's mantra:
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
Birdwatcher
Jochem Schooner
...
Joe,
There's a Michalak group if you want to bring it up there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/
I figured you probably knew about it, but I didn't see any posts from
you over there so I thought I'd mention it.
Regards,
There's a Michalak group if you want to bring it up there:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/
I figured you probably knew about it, but I didn't see any posts from
you over there so I thought I'd mention it.
Regards,
> Michalak's Cormorant @ 31 x 8 is supposed to weigh 2,500# on theabout
> trailer and takes 1,000# of water ballist. I just dont know much
> these designs? Probably not the forum to discuss...but it is an
> example of larger size and low towing weight.
>
> Joe
>2,500# on the trailer and takes 1,000# of water ballist.St Vallery is 25 foot water ballasted traileable crusier design by Bolger.
> Joe
Displacement is less of a concern than trailering weight. Lead is
cheap compared to wood and epoxy. Light construction seems to offer
the most boat for the money.
Michalak's Cormorant @ 31 x 8 is supposed to weigh 2,500# on the
trailer and takes 1,000# of water ballist. I just dont know much about
these designs? Probably not the forum to discuss...but it is an
example of larger size and low towing weight.
Joe
cheap compared to wood and epoxy. Light construction seems to offer
the most boat for the money.
Michalak's Cormorant @ 31 x 8 is supposed to weigh 2,500# on the
trailer and takes 1,000# of water ballist. I just dont know much about
these designs? Probably not the forum to discuss...but it is an
example of larger size and low towing weight.
Joe
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>
> > There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8'
wide
> > and light displacement.
>
> I figure: Any displacment vessel, 24' x 8', would need considerable
> amounts of ballast to float down to decent flow lines, hence the high
> displacement.
>
> A light displacement boat this size would need to be very flat
> bottomed, and not have good flow lines, I think.
>
> There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8' wideI figure: Any displacment vessel, 24' x 8', would need considerable
> and light displacement.
amounts of ballast to float down to decent flow lines, hence the high
displacement.
A light displacement boat this size would need to be very flat
bottomed, and not have good flow lines, I think.
From 21' to 26' is a 90% increase in volume if everything is scaled up
together. Material strength doesn't scale well tho. Compare ants to
elephants. I had my nose rubbed in the inverse of this when I was thinking
it would be fun to have a scale model dirigible -- they don't make materials
I can handle that are thin/light enough.
You might also consider that people think of a 21' boat as a day
sailer/weekend camper, while the 26' version is a pocket cruiser.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
together. Material strength doesn't scale well tho. Compare ants to
elephants. I had my nose rubbed in the inverse of this when I was thinking
it would be fun to have a scale model dirigible -- they don't make materials
I can handle that are thin/light enough.
You might also consider that people think of a 21' boat as a day
sailer/weekend camper, while the 26' version is a pocket cruiser.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Nelson" <joe_nelson22@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: [bolger] Gap in plans
> There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8' wide
> and light displacement.
>
> I really want double berth accomodations. Martha Jane, Birdwatcher,
> Etc. all have transom berths and are too narrow for my liking. The old
> Jessie Cooper seems about right, other than the negative aspects of
> rigging as a trailer sailer, etc. The Black Skimmer has not enough
> headroom. You also seem to jump from Disp. of around 2000# to 5000#
> rather quickly in this size range.
>
> This gap in plans is not unique to Bolger. Most 24' sailboats are
> heavy displacement. I am considering John Welsford's Penguin, as it
> comes as close to my requirments as I have seen. He is working on a 26
> foot model but that has double the displacement and weight of the 21'
> penguin. Been poking around looking at less conventional boats and
> cant find anything that is larger that doesn't weigh a LOT more.
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
The 25" Chebacco built with a keel and a larrger cabin would do the
trick. Also Seabird '86 with or without some cabin enlargement.
Paul
trick. Also Seabird '86 with or without some cabin enlargement.
Paul
> Any Ideas?Send a fax to PB&F and ask.
I think that the mainmast of Jessie Cooper could be built with a
tabernacle with few, if any, complications.
There seems to be a gap in plan availability in the 24' range, 8' wide
and light displacement.
I really want double berth accomodations. Martha Jane, Birdwatcher,
Etc. all have transom berths and are too narrow for my liking. The old
Jessie Cooper seems about right, other than the negative aspects of
rigging as a trailer sailer, etc. The Black Skimmer has not enough
headroom. You also seem to jump from Disp. of around 2000# to 5000#
rather quickly in this size range.
This gap in plans is not unique to Bolger. Most 24' sailboats are
heavy displacement. I am considering John Welsford's Penguin, as it
comes as close to my requirments as I have seen. He is working on a 26
foot model but that has double the displacement and weight of the 21'
penguin. Been poking around looking at less conventional boats and
cant find anything that is larger that doesn't weigh a LOT more.
Any Ideas?
Joe
and light displacement.
I really want double berth accomodations. Martha Jane, Birdwatcher,
Etc. all have transom berths and are too narrow for my liking. The old
Jessie Cooper seems about right, other than the negative aspects of
rigging as a trailer sailer, etc. The Black Skimmer has not enough
headroom. You also seem to jump from Disp. of around 2000# to 5000#
rather quickly in this size range.
This gap in plans is not unique to Bolger. Most 24' sailboats are
heavy displacement. I am considering John Welsford's Penguin, as it
comes as close to my requirments as I have seen. He is working on a 26
foot model but that has double the displacement and weight of the 21'
penguin. Been poking around looking at less conventional boats and
cant find anything that is larger that doesn't weigh a LOT more.
Any Ideas?
Joe