Re: [bolger] Re: Question on glassing
Couple of points of response:
1 -- System 3 is very clear that, although they own
Industrial Formulators which makes the Cold Cure
brands, they do not guarantee chemical compatibility
and strongly advise curing and depending on mechanical
bonding.
2 -- I've encountered extreme amounts of amine blush
when temperatures get too low. I have found it easy
to remove with water while still at the green stage
(followed by a superficial scraping). The partly
cured System 3 has not been noticeably affected by
this treatment. If it gets water on it TOO early it
gets white on the surface but that will disappear in
time.
Eric
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
1 -- System 3 is very clear that, although they own
Industrial Formulators which makes the Cold Cure
brands, they do not guarantee chemical compatibility
and strongly advise curing and depending on mechanical
bonding.
2 -- I've encountered extreme amounts of amine blush
when temperatures get too low. I have found it easy
to remove with water while still at the green stage
(followed by a superficial scraping). The partly
cured System 3 has not been noticeably affected by
this treatment. If it gets water on it TOO early it
gets white on the surface but that will disappear in
time.
Eric
--- Nels <arvent@...> wrote:
> Industrial Formulators Canada has a free PDF firmatother products especially
> manual available . . . I expect it could apply to
> System Threeand they say
> who now owns IFC . . .
> >(Nels wrote) " I generally use System Three epoxy
> that you can get a chemical bond, up to 72 hoursafter it sets. I
> usually don't have any blush etc.__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
Hi John,
What weight cloth are you using? For a cartopper and most other
smaller boats, 4 oz. is about all one requires. Heavier cloth will
take more epoxy to fill the weave, add more weight and cost and not
give much in return in the way of strength or delamination ability.
Nels
What weight cloth are you using? For a cartopper and most other
smaller boats, 4 oz. is about all one requires. Heavier cloth will
take more epoxy to fill the weave, add more weight and cost and not
give much in return in the way of strength or delamination ability.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, catboat15@a... wrote:
>
> If the weather ever warms up here again I want to finish with the
glass
> cloth and epoxy on my Car topper. Right now I see a few small
blisters here and
> there where the glass is not bonded to the wood. Asking for
advice, ignore
> those spots? Sand them down and just put on the second and third
coat of epoxy?
> Or the most work, cut them out and patch in a piece of cloth? The
last would
> make more joints of course and require more work to level off the
seams.
> On previous glassing jobs I never could seem to fill the weave of
the cloth.
> Should I add some filler powder to the second and third coats to
hide the
> texture of the cloth?
> TIA from you experienced boat builders
>
> John Meacham
> High desert of California
> Bolger Cartopper.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Hi Jim
Do you wait until the epoxy is thoroughly cured, then sand for
mechanical key, or do you put the fabric on with the epoxy still
green and soft?
I wait for the first coat to cure and then lightly sand it. Normally
I fill screw holes and tape seams, then sand the tape edges and clean
up the filled holes before putting the sealing coat on. If I had a
helper, I'd think about putting the cloth on while the sealing coat
is still green, but since I work alone, it's much easier to position
the cloth on a smooth, "dry" hull.
BTW, a sealing coat helps with taping seams, too, but I've found that
I still need to recoat after grinding down the tape edges. So lately
I've just been dunking the tape in epoxy prior to applying it on the
bare plywood seams, and this puts enough glue on to stick the tape
without endless brushing or squegeeing. It's messy, though.
Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> One small question on your technique. When you put down the first,sealing coat, how long d you wait for the later coat with the glass?
Do you wait until the epoxy is thoroughly cured, then sand for
mechanical key, or do you put the fabric on with the epoxy still
green and soft?
I wait for the first coat to cure and then lightly sand it. Normally
I fill screw holes and tape seams, then sand the tape edges and clean
up the filled holes before putting the sealing coat on. If I had a
helper, I'd think about putting the cloth on while the sealing coat
is still green, but since I work alone, it's much easier to position
the cloth on a smooth, "dry" hull.
BTW, a sealing coat helps with taping seams, too, but I've found that
I still need to recoat after grinding down the tape edges. So lately
I've just been dunking the tape in epoxy prior to applying it on the
bare plywood seams, and this puts enough glue on to stick the tape
without endless brushing or squegeeing. It's messy, though.
Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Industrial Formulators Canada has a free PDF firmat manual available
here:
http://www.indform.com/
I expect it could apply to other products especially System Three
who now owns IFC
Here is the table of contents:
Introduction. 2
Chemistry 2-4
Industrial FormulatorsÕ Epoxies 4-5
Safety and Handling 5
Measuring and Mixing Epoxy Systems 6-7
Techniques of Epoxy Use 7-8
Coating with Epoxy Resin 8-9
Fiberglassing with Epoxy Resin 9-11
Using Fillers with Epoxy Resins . 12-13
Epoxy Resins as Strustural Adhesives 13-14
Filleting, Fairing and Molding with Epoxy Resins 15-16
Painting and Finishing 16-17
Troubleshooting
here:
http://www.indform.com/
I expect it could apply to other products especially System Three
who now owns IFC
Here is the table of contents:
Introduction. 2
Chemistry 2-4
Industrial FormulatorsÕ Epoxies 4-5
Safety and Handling 5
Measuring and Mixing Epoxy Systems 6-7
Techniques of Epoxy Use 7-8
Coating with Epoxy Resin 8-9
Fiberglassing with Epoxy Resin 9-11
Using Fillers with Epoxy Resins . 12-13
Epoxy Resins as Strustural Adhesives 13-14
Filleting, Fairing and Molding with Epoxy Resins 15-16
Painting and Finishing 16-17
Troubleshooting
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@c...> wrote:
>
> I generally use System Three epoxy and they say that you can get a
> chemical bond, up to 72 hours after it sets. I usually don't have
any
> blush, but I think that's driven by how fast the "dryer or
hardener" is.
> Clyde
>
>
I generally use System Three epoxy and they say that you can get a
chemical bond, up to 72 hours after it sets. I usually don't have any
blush, but I think that's driven by how fast the "dryer or hardener" is.
Clyde
Jim Baltaxe wrote:
chemical bond, up to 72 hours after it sets. I usually don't have any
blush, but I think that's driven by how fast the "dryer or hardener" is.
Clyde
Jim Baltaxe wrote:
> Hi Jon[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> One small question on your technique. When you put down the first,
> sealing coat, how long d you wait for the later coat with the glass?
> Do you wait until the epoxy is thoroughly cured, then sand for
> mechanical key, or do you put the fabric on with the epoxy still green
> and soft?
>
> Enjoy
>
> Jim Baltaxe
> 8 Knoll Street
> Island Bay, Wellington
> NEW ZEALAND
> +64 (04) 934 1407
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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Hi Jon
One small question on your technique. When you put down the first, sealing coat, how long d you wait for the later coat with the glass? Do you wait until the epoxy is thoroughly cured, then sand for mechanical key, or do you put the fabric on with the epoxy still green and soft?
Enjoy
Jim Baltaxe
8 Knoll Street
Island Bay, Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
+64 (04) 934 1407
021 243 5018
Never fight someone with nothing left to lose.
Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of adventures_in_astrophotography
Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2005 3:44 a.m.
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: *****SPAM***** [bolger] Re: Question on glassing
Hi John,
...snip...
In addition to Jamie's good advice, let me add a few words based on
my own experiences. I've glassed five plywood hulls, and am about to
glass two more over the next few weekends. Each job has been better
than the last, so something is working.
Squeegees are definitely the way to go for the first coat that sticks
the cloth to the plywood, but what really makes things work great is
to seal the plywood with epoxy first. This will fill the outer
veneer and keep it from soaking up epoxy from underneath the glass,
especially if it's a porous wood like fir. I can't believe it took
me so long to figure this out, but once I started doing it this way,
my glassing jobs got a whole lot smoother, and the glass bonds to the
hull consistently. I like to use a roller for all subsequent coats,
and like Jamie says, three in total usually does the job.
The one thing to avoid is trying to get three coats worth of epoxy
down all in one giant batch on the bare glass, as I tried once. With
too much epoxy, the glass will float off of the plywood, no matter
how much you squeegee or roll it out. The result is a wavy surface
that requires a lot of sanding and fairing, all of which uses even
more expensive goop. Be sure to wear a good dust mask when sanding
this stuff.
Jon Kolb
HYPERLINK "http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm"http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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One small question on your technique. When you put down the first, sealing coat, how long d you wait for the later coat with the glass? Do you wait until the epoxy is thoroughly cured, then sand for mechanical key, or do you put the fabric on with the epoxy still green and soft?
Enjoy
Jim Baltaxe
8 Knoll Street
Island Bay, Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
+64 (04) 934 1407
021 243 5018
Never fight someone with nothing left to lose.
Klein bottle for rent. Inquire within.
"If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" -- Albert Einstein
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of adventures_in_astrophotography
Sent: Wednesday, 28 December 2005 3:44 a.m.
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: *****SPAM***** [bolger] Re: Question on glassing
Hi John,
...snip...
> To fill the weave, I find a plastic squeegee works best. You canthis
> buy them at your epoxy supplier or at automotive stores. I use
> for all coats of epoxy on glass, it gives a uniform coat without..snip...
> excess epoxy. It also doesn't pull the cloth up the way a roller
> will. The first coat sticks the glass down with no white spots or
> blisters, the second fills most of the weave and the third should
> leave a smooth surface. If a thicker coat is wanted, use a roller
> but not on the first pass.
In addition to Jamie's good advice, let me add a few words based on
my own experiences. I've glassed five plywood hulls, and am about to
glass two more over the next few weekends. Each job has been better
than the last, so something is working.
Squeegees are definitely the way to go for the first coat that sticks
the cloth to the plywood, but what really makes things work great is
to seal the plywood with epoxy first. This will fill the outer
veneer and keep it from soaking up epoxy from underneath the glass,
especially if it's a porous wood like fir. I can't believe it took
me so long to figure this out, but once I started doing it this way,
my glassing jobs got a whole lot smoother, and the glass bonds to the
hull consistently. I like to use a roller for all subsequent coats,
and like Jamie says, three in total usually does the job.
The one thing to avoid is trying to get three coats worth of epoxy
down all in one giant batch on the bare glass, as I tried once. With
too much epoxy, the glass will float off of the plywood, no matter
how much you squeegee or roll it out. The result is a wavy surface
that requires a lot of sanding and fairing, all of which uses even
more expensive goop. Be sure to wear a good dust mask when sanding
this stuff.
Jon Kolb
HYPERLINK "http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm"http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "HYPERLINK "http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger"bolger"on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
HYPERLINK "mailto:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe"bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the HYPERLINK "http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/"Yahoo!Terms of Service.
_____
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The best applicator I have found for epoxy is the Linzer Adhesive
roller cover. $3.95 at Home Depot. They are made especially for
epoxy. They are tough, don't shed their nap, and don't lift the
cloth.
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/jsearch/product.jsp?
pn=926400
They are 9" . The nap is 1/8"nylon bristles set in a plastic tube. I
cut them in half on the bandsaw for a 4 1/2" roller (less tiring). I
also cut off short sections and split them on the bandsaw, make a
handle with a kerf in a piece of wood or dowel, and use them as
brushes.
The roller covers can be cleaned with a 4-in-1 painter's tool and
acetone if you do it right away before the epoxy sets up in the
roller cover. The trick is to scrape off as much epoxy as possible
with the 4-in-1 tool before dipping them in a coffee can of acetone
(in a well ventilated location) and wiping with a paper towel. Then
take the cover off the roller to dry. I have gotten as many as 5
uses from a roller cover before having to discard it.
Vince Chew (Dakota)
roller cover. $3.95 at Home Depot. They are made especially for
epoxy. They are tough, don't shed their nap, and don't lift the
cloth.
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/jsearch/product.jsp?
pn=926400
They are 9" . The nap is 1/8"nylon bristles set in a plastic tube. I
cut them in half on the bandsaw for a 4 1/2" roller (less tiring). I
also cut off short sections and split them on the bandsaw, make a
handle with a kerf in a piece of wood or dowel, and use them as
brushes.
The roller covers can be cleaned with a 4-in-1 painter's tool and
acetone if you do it right away before the epoxy sets up in the
roller cover. The trick is to scrape off as much epoxy as possible
with the 4-in-1 tool before dipping them in a coffee can of acetone
(in a well ventilated location) and wiping with a paper towel. Then
take the cover off the roller to dry. I have gotten as many as 5
uses from a roller cover before having to discard it.
Vince Chew (Dakota)
Hi John,
...snip...
In addition to Jamie's good advice, let me add a few words based on
my own experiences. I've glassed five plywood hulls, and am about to
glass two more over the next few weekends. Each job has been better
than the last, so something is working.
Squeegees are definitely the way to go for the first coat that sticks
the cloth to the plywood, but what really makes things work great is
to seal the plywood with epoxy first. This will fill the outer
veneer and keep it from soaking up epoxy from underneath the glass,
especially if it's a porous wood like fir. I can't believe it took
me so long to figure this out, but once I started doing it this way,
my glassing jobs got a whole lot smoother, and the glass bonds to the
hull consistently. I like to use a roller for all subsequent coats,
and like Jamie says, three in total usually does the job.
The one thing to avoid is trying to get three coats worth of epoxy
down all in one giant batch on the bare glass, as I tried once. With
too much epoxy, the glass will float off of the plywood, no matter
how much you squeegee or roll it out. The result is a wavy surface
that requires a lot of sanding and fairing, all of which uses even
more expensive goop. Be sure to wear a good dust mask when sanding
this stuff.
Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
...snip...
> To fill the weave, I find a plastic squeegee works best. You canthis
> buy them at your epoxy supplier or at automotive stores. I use
> for all coats of epoxy on glass, it gives a uniform coat without..snip...
> excess epoxy. It also doesn't pull the cloth up the way a roller
> will. The first coat sticks the glass down with no white spots or
> blisters, the second fills most of the weave and the third should
> leave a smooth surface. If a thicker coat is wanted, use a roller
> but not on the first pass.
In addition to Jamie's good advice, let me add a few words based on
my own experiences. I've glassed five plywood hulls, and am about to
glass two more over the next few weekends. Each job has been better
than the last, so something is working.
Squeegees are definitely the way to go for the first coat that sticks
the cloth to the plywood, but what really makes things work great is
to seal the plywood with epoxy first. This will fill the outer
veneer and keep it from soaking up epoxy from underneath the glass,
especially if it's a porous wood like fir. I can't believe it took
me so long to figure this out, but once I started doing it this way,
my glassing jobs got a whole lot smoother, and the glass bonds to the
hull consistently. I like to use a roller for all subsequent coats,
and like Jamie says, three in total usually does the job.
The one thing to avoid is trying to get three coats worth of epoxy
down all in one giant batch on the bare glass, as I tried once. With
too much epoxy, the glass will float off of the plywood, no matter
how much you squeegee or roll it out. The result is a wavy surface
that requires a lot of sanding and fairing, all of which uses even
more expensive goop. Be sure to wear a good dust mask when sanding
this stuff.
Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Hi
It's a pain, but any blisters should be fixed now. I've glassed a
couple of canoes and a twenty foot plywood hull, and for me the best
way to a smooth finish was to sand out the flaws -- this
automatically gives you a feather edge. Then use a patch that
extends out over the edge, overlapping the good surface. Once this
has cured, sand the edge of the patch flush with the rest of the
surface.
To fill the weave, I find a plastic squeegee works best. You can
buy them at your epoxy supplier or at automotive stores. I use this
for all coats of epoxy on glass, it gives a uniform coat without
excess epoxy. It also doesn't pull the cloth up the way a roller
will. The first coat sticks the glass down with no white spots or
blisters, the second fills most of the weave and the third should
leave a smooth surface. If a thicker coat is wanted, use a roller
but not on the first pass.
A random orbital sander with 80 grit worked very on the 6 oz cloth
I've used most.
Cheers,
Jamie Orr
It's a pain, but any blisters should be fixed now. I've glassed a
couple of canoes and a twenty foot plywood hull, and for me the best
way to a smooth finish was to sand out the flaws -- this
automatically gives you a feather edge. Then use a patch that
extends out over the edge, overlapping the good surface. Once this
has cured, sand the edge of the patch flush with the rest of the
surface.
To fill the weave, I find a plastic squeegee works best. You can
buy them at your epoxy supplier or at automotive stores. I use this
for all coats of epoxy on glass, it gives a uniform coat without
excess epoxy. It also doesn't pull the cloth up the way a roller
will. The first coat sticks the glass down with no white spots or
blisters, the second fills most of the weave and the third should
leave a smooth surface. If a thicker coat is wanted, use a roller
but not on the first pass.
A random orbital sander with 80 grit worked very on the 6 oz cloth
I've used most.
Cheers,
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, catboat15@a... wrote:
>
> If the weather ever warms up here again I want to finish with the
glass
> cloth and epoxy on my Car topper. Right now I see a few small
blisters here and
> there where the glass is not bonded to the wood. Asking for
advice, ignore
> those spots? Sand them down and just put on the second and third
coat of epoxy?
> Or the most work, cut them out and patch in a piece of cloth? The
last would
> make more joints of course and require more work to level off the
seams.
> On previous glassing jobs I never could seem to fill the weave of
the cloth.
> Should I add some filler powder to the second and third coats to
hide the
> texture of the cloth?
> TIA from you experienced boat builders
>
> John Meacham
> High desert of California
> Bolger Cartopper.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
If the weather ever warms up here again I want to finish with the glass
cloth and epoxy on my Car topper. Right now I see a few small blisters here and
there where the glass is not bonded to the wood. Asking for advice, ignore
those spots? Sand them down and just put on the second and third coat of epoxy?
Or the most work, cut them out and patch in a piece of cloth? The last would
make more joints of course and require more work to level off the seams.
On previous glassing jobs I never could seem to fill the weave of the cloth.
Should I add some filler powder to the second and third coats to hide the
texture of the cloth?
TIA from you experienced boat builders
John Meacham
High desert of California
Bolger Cartopper.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cloth and epoxy on my Car topper. Right now I see a few small blisters here and
there where the glass is not bonded to the wood. Asking for advice, ignore
those spots? Sand them down and just put on the second and third coat of epoxy?
Or the most work, cut them out and patch in a piece of cloth? The last would
make more joints of course and require more work to level off the seams.
On previous glassing jobs I never could seem to fill the weave of the cloth.
Should I add some filler powder to the second and third coats to hide the
texture of the cloth?
TIA from you experienced boat builders
John Meacham
High desert of California
Bolger Cartopper.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]