Re: [bolger] Re: Question? What weight of F.G. cloth?????
> Plywood is totaly different so you are not talking about the same things it isFair enough. I agree that plywood is somewhat different, [though not
> apples and oranges.
totally different]. It is still 'wood' and I have seen with my own
eyes that it does indeed rot like wood.
And, I agree, intuitively it seems that epoxy encapsulation would
preserve plywood.
Though, is their evidence proving the fact? Many experts seem to disagree.
Traditionaly built wood plank boats where made to give and move and
leak some in there joints as well as swell and shrink. Plywood is
totaly different so you are not talking about the same things it is
apples and oranges. Planked boats need air flow to dry out plywood
needs to have the water and air blocked out. Both need to be checked
and repairs made as needed weather it be calking in a joints on a plank
boat or a ding in the glass on a plywood boat. The other thing is
polyester and epoxy are often confused. Polyester should only be used
on molded all glass boats and epoxy on glassed plywood boats. The
polyestr cracks easyer and will not soak in as well. But it is up to
you how you do things it is your boat. Didn't see anything quoating any
of the plywood boat builders that have been around for years.
Jon
leak some in there joints as well as swell and shrink. Plywood is
totaly different so you are not talking about the same things it is
apples and oranges. Planked boats need air flow to dry out plywood
needs to have the water and air blocked out. Both need to be checked
and repairs made as needed weather it be calking in a joints on a plank
boat or a ding in the glass on a plywood boat. The other thing is
polyester and epoxy are often confused. Polyester should only be used
on molded all glass boats and epoxy on glassed plywood boats. The
polyestr cracks easyer and will not soak in as well. But it is up to
you how you do things it is your boat. Didn't see anything quoating any
of the plywood boat builders that have been around for years.
Jon
Your right wood rot has always been the same. The problem is the
wood has changed and the finishes have changed.. Wooden boats here on
the cheasapeake bay were made from trees a couple hundred years old and
the grain was tight as a bulls rear end. Some of it was so tight the
wood would hardly swell when wet or at least took a long time. The
caulking was white lead the paint was white or red lead. The salt they
were packed in was loaded with poisons of different kinds. Murcury was
used to stop rot and they often mixed copper bottom paint in . The
whole boat was a floating ecological disaster. They lasted though.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
wood has changed and the finishes have changed.. Wooden boats here on
the cheasapeake bay were made from trees a couple hundred years old and
the grain was tight as a bulls rear end. Some of it was so tight the
wood would hardly swell when wet or at least took a long time. The
caulking was white lead the paint was white or red lead. The salt they
were packed in was loaded with poisons of different kinds. Murcury was
used to stop rot and they often mixed copper bottom paint in . The
whole boat was a floating ecological disaster. They lasted though.
Doug
Bruce Hallman wrote:
> On 1/6/06, Joe Nelson <joe_nelson22@...> wrote:
> > A lot has changed since Chapell has been around
>
> I doubt the process of wood rot has changed.
>
> I think the problem with epoxy encapsulation is that it has to be
> perfect; which is hard enough to achieve even on day one, and over
> time, dings and nicks are inevitable. Other authors agree with Howard
> Chapelle:
>
> The book _Wooden Boat Renovation: New Life for Old Boats Using Modern
> Methods_ by Jim Trefethen [page 19] describes emphatically, that good
> ventilation is how to prevent rot.
>
>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21>
>http://hort.net/+135c
>
> So does _Building Small Boats_ by Greg Rossel. Read his paragraph on
> page 32 about ventilation and rot.
>
>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page>
>http://hort.net/+135d
>
> Also see the sidebar "Epoxy Yea or Nay" on page 25 of _How to Build
> Glued Lapstrake Wooden Boats_ by John Brooks where he describes in
> detail the process of rot on epoxy encapsulated wood.
>
>http://hort.net/+135e
>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page>
>
>
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About 1961 I bought a Yokahama 21., a wonderful boat she was
about four years old when I bought her and I kept her for 20 years she
was glass over plywood and of course not epoxy in those days. She was
painted inside with copper paint, shalac and a coat of primer and a
finish coat. Over the years I added more paint. I removed the glass and
reglassed after I owned her 7 years. I sold her to two women who were
crazy about her. About 8 months after I sold her I stopped in the
marina and she was in a cradle in the yard with a canvas over her.
She was completely sealed in, both ends tight. I called the one girl on
the phone and explained that they needed to open the ends of the
canvas and keep here on her mooring so the wind would blow through. I
was told to mind my own business.
Two years later she was abandoned as unrepairable. The wood was
constantly damp. Had she been constantly water logged or constantly dry
she would have been OK. Logs under water where there is no worms last
hundreds of years as in the great lakes.
Since you can't have a boat soaking in water you have to keep it
dry and epoxy is the answer to that. It's the inside of the boat that
does not dry properly even when turned upside down. I once saw a wooden
canoe upside down on a set of horses in a back yard and the guy had a
wind scoop that funneled air up into the boat. I don't know how
effective it was but made sense to me.
Doug
Joe Nelson wrote:
about four years old when I bought her and I kept her for 20 years she
was glass over plywood and of course not epoxy in those days. She was
painted inside with copper paint, shalac and a coat of primer and a
finish coat. Over the years I added more paint. I removed the glass and
reglassed after I owned her 7 years. I sold her to two women who were
crazy about her. About 8 months after I sold her I stopped in the
marina and she was in a cradle in the yard with a canvas over her.
She was completely sealed in, both ends tight. I called the one girl on
the phone and explained that they needed to open the ends of the
canvas and keep here on her mooring so the wind would blow through. I
was told to mind my own business.
Two years later she was abandoned as unrepairable. The wood was
constantly damp. Had she been constantly water logged or constantly dry
she would have been OK. Logs under water where there is no worms last
hundreds of years as in the great lakes.
Since you can't have a boat soaking in water you have to keep it
dry and epoxy is the answer to that. It's the inside of the boat that
does not dry properly even when turned upside down. I once saw a wooden
canoe upside down on a set of horses in a back yard and the guy had a
wind scoop that funneled air up into the boat. I don't know how
effective it was but made sense to me.
Doug
Joe Nelson wrote:
> A lot has changed since Chapell has been around. If you use epoxy,
> coat both the inside and out. Epoxy forms such a good seal that if you
> dont encapsulate the inside, water will travel through the wood and
> cannot penatrate through the exterior epoxy coating. This will cause
> rot.
>
> A light 4- 6oz layer or fiberglass cloth will assue you a good and
> complete sealing of the wood. Since you can see that the cloth is
> saturated, you will get a consistent covering...as apposed to no cloth
> where it is possible to have holidays or voids in your epoxy coating
> and not know it. This along with abraision resistance are the best
> reasons to cover with fiberglass. I recently covered a centerboard
> with glass. Found out afterwards that the centerboard was too fat.
> Took me 2 hours with a belt sander to get through 6 0z glass. It is
> tough when encapsulated with epoxy!
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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On 1/6/06, Joe Nelson <joe_nelson22@...> wrote:
I think the problem with epoxy encapsulation is that it has to be
perfect; which is hard enough to achieve even on day one, and over
time, dings and nicks are inevitable. Other authors agree with Howard
Chapelle:
The book _Wooden Boat Renovation: New Life for Old Boats Using Modern
Methods_ by Jim Trefethen [page 19] describes emphatically, that good
ventilation is how to prevent rot.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21
http://hort.net/+135c
So does _Building Small Boats_ by Greg Rossel. Read his paragraph on
page 32 about ventilation and rot.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page
http://hort.net/+135d
Also see the sidebar "Epoxy Yea or Nay" on page 25 of _How to Build
Glued Lapstrake Wooden Boats_ by John Brooks where he describes in
detail the process of rot on epoxy encapsulated wood.
http://hort.net/+135e
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page
> A lot has changed since Chapell has been aroundI doubt the process of wood rot has changed.
I think the problem with epoxy encapsulation is that it has to be
perfect; which is hard enough to achieve even on day one, and over
time, dings and nicks are inevitable. Other authors agree with Howard
Chapelle:
The book _Wooden Boat Renovation: New Life for Old Boats Using Modern
Methods_ by Jim Trefethen [page 19] describes emphatically, that good
ventilation is how to prevent rot.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0070652392/ref=sib_dp_srch_pop/002-4187740-4016012?v=search-inside&keywords=rot+air&go.x=17&go.y=10&go=Go%21
http://hort.net/+135c
So does _Building Small Boats_ by Greg Rossel. Read his paragraph on
page 32 about ventilation and rot.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822507/ref=sib_vae_pg_32/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot%20air&p=S01C&twc=4&checkSum=UaSFTi%2FjGBIRpPj%2B8Jd2QUFK8shZ9mA0YDOs0HH7LBA%3D#reader-page
http://hort.net/+135d
Also see the sidebar "Epoxy Yea or Nay" on page 25 of _How to Build
Glued Lapstrake Wooden Boats_ by John Brooks where he describes in
detail the process of rot on epoxy encapsulated wood.
http://hort.net/+135e
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0937822582/ref=sib_vae_pg_25/002-4187740-4016012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S011&twc=14&checkSum=Ehza4C8FtxnL7AFQFcCf69Q5MLJoEdZuYPSbp021u18%3D#reader-page
A lot has changed since Chapell has been around. If you use epoxy,
coat both the inside and out. Epoxy forms such a good seal that if you
dont encapsulate the inside, water will travel through the wood and
cannot penatrate through the exterior epoxy coating. This will cause
rot.
A light 4- 6oz layer or fiberglass cloth will assue you a good and
complete sealing of the wood. Since you can see that the cloth is
saturated, you will get a consistent covering...as apposed to no cloth
where it is possible to have holidays or voids in your epoxy coating
and not know it. This along with abraision resistance are the best
reasons to cover with fiberglass. I recently covered a centerboard
with glass. Found out afterwards that the centerboard was too fat.
Took me 2 hours with a belt sander to get through 6 0z glass. It is
tough when encapsulated with epoxy!
Joe
coat both the inside and out. Epoxy forms such a good seal that if you
dont encapsulate the inside, water will travel through the wood and
cannot penatrate through the exterior epoxy coating. This will cause
rot.
A light 4- 6oz layer or fiberglass cloth will assue you a good and
complete sealing of the wood. Since you can see that the cloth is
saturated, you will get a consistent covering...as apposed to no cloth
where it is possible to have holidays or voids in your epoxy coating
and not know it. This along with abraision resistance are the best
reasons to cover with fiberglass. I recently covered a centerboard
with glass. Found out afterwards that the centerboard was too fat.
Took me 2 hours with a belt sander to get through 6 0z glass. It is
tough when encapsulated with epoxy!
Joe
> resistant. If you could saturate the wood with water and keep itBoth L.F. Herreshoff on page 53 of his book _The Compleat Cruiser_
http://tinyurl.com/cs434
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0911378677/ref=sib_vae_pg_53/002-6956047-4572062?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S01V&twc=1&checkSum=kVxRov%2BXcD79q2Aq6vhyi3rDcH8KU55sUWQ2DhsgZLM%3D#reader-page
...and George Buehler in _Backyard Boatbuilding_ Chapter 3;
http://tinyurl.com/dgz6u
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0071583807/ref=sib_vae_pg_27/002-6956047-4572062?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=rot&p=S015&twc=29&checkSum=gSHsrjsRnzZBC5xge6GLMLqC6EpPOtQjidC7wzy6Noo%3D#reader-page
describe that rot is prevented by good airflow.
And, Howard Chapelle in _Boatbuilding_ page 439
http://tinyurl.com/cyux8
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0393035549/ref=sib_vae_pg_439/002-6956047-4572062?%5Fencoding=UTF8&keywords=%20rot%20prevention&p=S0CD&twc=1&checkSum=4Vo3d9vMAkV9lAS%2B51U%2BY0PRu2JCaOeYf0F3Dvh9aEA%3D#reader-page
...writes that it is preferable to *not* coat the inside of the planks
with varnish or paint, [presumably because it impedes air flow].
Howard Chapelle has written a *lot* about preventing rot in wooden
boats, including the practice of using rock salt, [as standing fresh
water is very much prone to cause rot].
I think you have to be logged into Amazon for the 'search inside the
book' links above to work.
Glass has nothing to do with rot. But glass on the inside of the
boat adds a lot to the impact resistance of the boat. Glass does keep
fir from checking so if your using fir it does make the wood more rot
resistant. If you could saturate the wood with water and keep it that
way the boat would last forever but it would sure be heavy, and weaker too.
Doug
derbyrm wrote:
boat adds a lot to the impact resistance of the boat. Glass does keep
fir from checking so if your using fir it does make the wood more rot
resistant. If you could saturate the wood with water and keep it that
way the boat would last forever but it would sure be heavy, and weaker too.
Doug
derbyrm wrote:
> I don't claim any particular expertise in this area, but I believe
> "rot" is
> a fungus which needs air and water to survive. Put on a watertight
> barrier
> and it will not grow.
>
> >From what I've read, three coats of epoxy constitute a watertight
> seal for
> the surface of wood. Any glass added is to prevent impacts from
> rupturing
> the epoxy and letting water thru the cracks. (If the wood is sealed
> on all
> surfaces, it won't swell and shrink.)
>
> Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>
>
> >> another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside.
> >
> > Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
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> > horses
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> Fax:
> > (978) 282-1349
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
I don't claim any particular expertise in this area, but I believe "rot" is
a fungus which needs air and water to survive. Put on a watertight barrier
and it will not grow.
From what I've read, three coats of epoxy constitute a watertight seal for
the surface of wood. Any glass added is to prevent impacts from rupturing
the epoxy and letting water thru the cracks. (If the wood is sealed on all
surfaces, it won't swell and shrink.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
a fungus which needs air and water to survive. Put on a watertight barrier
and it will not grow.
From what I've read, three coats of epoxy constitute a watertight seal for
the surface of wood. Any glass added is to prevent impacts from rupturing
the epoxy and letting water thru the cracks. (If the wood is sealed on all
surfaces, it won't swell and shrink.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
>> another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside.
>
> Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside.Does epoxy and cloth stop rot?
Not only are you right about putting glass and epoxy on the inside to
strengthen the hull against a rock coming through it,but there is
another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside. Over the years I can
count on the fingers of one hand how many times I have seen rot that
might have started on the outside. As to rot on the outside, old timers
used to say that rot occurs between wind and water. This is the area
where the salt water wicks up into the sides and evaporates. If your
boat is in salt water this area will not rot as the boat gets older and
salt builds up in the wood. So a good coat of epoxy on the hull will
slow water penetration and evaporation but glass is not needed. Most of
the rot I've seen on the outside has been in boats were kept in a leaky
old shed or was covered by a tarp. Having been teased over the years
about old rotten boats calling to me and being able to smell a rotten
boat for a mile I have come to believe that I know something about rot.
I am building a new boat and a friend came by and asked if I had
burned the old rotten one in my new wood stove and am I secretly
rebuilding it now.
Doug.
derbyrm wrote:
strengthen the hull against a rock coming through it,but there is
another reason. Wooden boats rot from the inside. Over the years I can
count on the fingers of one hand how many times I have seen rot that
might have started on the outside. As to rot on the outside, old timers
used to say that rot occurs between wind and water. This is the area
where the salt water wicks up into the sides and evaporates. If your
boat is in salt water this area will not rot as the boat gets older and
salt builds up in the wood. So a good coat of epoxy on the hull will
slow water penetration and evaporation but glass is not needed. Most of
the rot I've seen on the outside has been in boats were kept in a leaky
old shed or was covered by a tarp. Having been teased over the years
about old rotten boats calling to me and being able to smell a rotten
boat for a mile I have come to believe that I know something about rot.
I am building a new boat and a friend came by and asked if I had
burned the old rotten one in my new wood stove and am I secretly
rebuilding it now.
Doug.
derbyrm wrote:
> "High tensile strength" implies it resists being stretched. It says
> nothing
> about what it does to resist compression -- and epoxy/fiberglass
> doesn't do
> much.
>
> I'm more worried about bumping into a rock (which compresses the
> outside of
> the planking) than I am in having my wife escape thru the side (which
> would
> put the outside of the planking in tension).
>
> Similarly, the glass improves the resistance to bending where the
> outside is
> being stretched, but does nothing for a bend in the opposite
> direction. If
> you want to add protection from the ordinary viscitudes, put your
> glass or
> Kevlar on the inside of the planking.
>
> Roger
>derbyrm@...
>http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
> To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
> > fiberglass adds strength.
> >
> > Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
> > a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
> > wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
> >
> > Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
> > as to why they believe otherwise.
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
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Heavier fiberglass means more epoxy and this means more strength, even
multi layers to build strength. Unless you are trying to build an
ultralite, I believe it's a mistake to cut corners here. Boats, we build
with plywood and fiberglass and epoxy take a beating even when riding
along on a trailer, but overall, it's the ability to get this strength
from plywd, fiberglass and epoxy, that makes it possible to assemble
these wonders in our garages or backyards, etc. Sorry to ramble on, Clyde
Bruce Hallman wrote:
multi layers to build strength. Unless you are trying to build an
ultralite, I believe it's a mistake to cut corners here. Boats, we build
with plywood and fiberglass and epoxy take a beating even when riding
along on a trailer, but overall, it's the ability to get this strength
from plywd, fiberglass and epoxy, that makes it possible to assemble
these wonders in our garages or backyards, etc. Sorry to ramble on, Clyde
Bruce Hallman wrote:
> On 1/5/06, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywood
>
> Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
> fiberglass adds strength.
>
> Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
> a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
> wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
>
> Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
> as to why they believe otherwise.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
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>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger>" on the web.
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you want to add protection from theWouldn't better abrasion resistance result from putting it on the outside? If so, it seems like you need a layer on both sides to deal most effectively with both abrasion and puncture resistance ...
> ordinary viscitudes, put your glass or
> Kevlar on the inside of the planking.
James Greene
"High tensile strength" implies it resists being stretched. It says nothing
about what it does to resist compression -- and epoxy/fiberglass doesn't do
much.
I'm more worried about bumping into a rock (which compresses the outside of
the planking) than I am in having my wife escape thru the side (which would
put the outside of the planking in tension).
Similarly, the glass improves the resistance to bending where the outside is
being stretched, but does nothing for a bend in the opposite direction. If
you want to add protection from the ordinary viscitudes, put your glass or
Kevlar on the inside of the planking.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
about what it does to resist compression -- and epoxy/fiberglass doesn't do
much.
I'm more worried about bumping into a rock (which compresses the outside of
the planking) than I am in having my wife escape thru the side (which would
put the outside of the planking in tension).
Similarly, the glass improves the resistance to bending where the outside is
being stretched, but does nothing for a bend in the opposite direction. If
you want to add protection from the ordinary viscitudes, put your glass or
Kevlar on the inside of the planking.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
>
> Protection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
> fiberglass adds strength.
>
> Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
> a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
> wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
>
> Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
> as to why they believe otherwise.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Orr" <jas_orr@y...> wrote:
ready to paint - is a case in point. Guaranteed for ten years for
highway signage.
Nels
>Great observation! Using crezon MDO - which is already sealed and
> That's one of the loaded questions, like what kind of plywood to use!
>
ready to paint - is a case in point. Guaranteed for ten years for
highway signage.
Nels
That's one of the loaded questions, like what kind of plywood to use!
I checked a couple of Paysons books, to see what he said. Couldn't
find a weight mentioned in "Building the Instant Catboat" (Bobcat).
Looking in "Build the New Instant Boats" I found a reference to 10
oz cloth on page 48. He's speaking of Gypsy there, but it's not so
different in size from Bobcat. I would think 10 oz is too much -- I
used 6 oz for my Chebacco and it worked fine.
Incidently, when I started building I wrote to PCB about sheathing
the hull, since the plans didn't have any instructions or mention of
glass. He wrote back that it would probably be a good thing,
(although he didn't seem to consider it necessary) and agreed that 6
oz would do.
I would guess that you have a lot of latitude in cloth weight, but
here's my own entirely biased opinion. I've used mostly 6 oz for
the Chebacco and also for strip canoes, one of them a Sairey Gamp
copy only 9 feet long and 15 pounds complete, the other a 16 footer
and 50 pounds. I didn't feel the 6 oz was too heavy, and it was
nicer to use than 4 oz -- I used once and thought the smaller weave
slower to wet out and didn't think it draped as well. I like the
way 6 oz will follow a corner (the corner has to be rounded, of
course). On stems I cut strips of cloth on the bias (at an angle)
and stretch it along the stem, I've always found the 6 oz to take
the compound shape very nicely.
I'm sure other weights will do as well, but as I say, I prefered the
6 over the 4oz because it seemed nicer to work with.
Good sailing!
Jamie Orr
I checked a couple of Paysons books, to see what he said. Couldn't
find a weight mentioned in "Building the Instant Catboat" (Bobcat).
Looking in "Build the New Instant Boats" I found a reference to 10
oz cloth on page 48. He's speaking of Gypsy there, but it's not so
different in size from Bobcat. I would think 10 oz is too much -- I
used 6 oz for my Chebacco and it worked fine.
Incidently, when I started building I wrote to PCB about sheathing
the hull, since the plans didn't have any instructions or mention of
glass. He wrote back that it would probably be a good thing,
(although he didn't seem to consider it necessary) and agreed that 6
oz would do.
I would guess that you have a lot of latitude in cloth weight, but
here's my own entirely biased opinion. I've used mostly 6 oz for
the Chebacco and also for strip canoes, one of them a Sairey Gamp
copy only 9 feet long and 15 pounds complete, the other a 16 footer
and 50 pounds. I didn't feel the 6 oz was too heavy, and it was
nicer to use than 4 oz -- I used once and thought the smaller weave
slower to wet out and didn't think it draped as well. I like the
way 6 oz will follow a corner (the corner has to be rounded, of
course). On stems I cut strips of cloth on the bias (at an angle)
and stretch it along the stem, I've always found the 6 oz to take
the compound shape very nicely.
I'm sure other weights will do as well, but as I say, I prefered the
6 over the 4oz because it seemed nicer to work with.
Good sailing!
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "txsailor37" <txsailor37@y...> wrote:
>
> I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the
outside
> of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several
options on
> weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz
seems
> like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance
here??
>
> BOBBY
>
On 1/5/06, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
fiberglass adds strength.
Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
as to why they believe otherwise.
> The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywoodProtection is one purpose, but logic also makes me believe that
fiberglass adds strength.
Adding a layer of high tensile strength material on the outer faces of
a piece of wood would certainly improve the bending strength of that
wood. Also, the puncture resistance of the wood would be improved.
Some people have claimed otherwise, but I haven't heard their argument
as to why they believe otherwise.
The purpose of the fiberglass is to stabilize and protect the plywood
surface so 2 - 4 oz should work fine for that. People tend to use 6oz
but as Paul points out below that just adds weight and work. I used .75
oz on a transom I was finishing clear on one of the light dories we
built a few summers ago, was very easy to get a really good finish and
the fiberglass keeps the surface protected from moisture and stable so
the varnish lasts a long time.
HJ
Paul Lefebvre wrote:
surface so 2 - 4 oz should work fine for that. People tend to use 6oz
but as Paul points out below that just adds weight and work. I used .75
oz on a transom I was finishing clear on one of the light dories we
built a few summers ago, was very easy to get a really good finish and
the fiberglass keeps the surface protected from moisture and stable so
the varnish lasts a long time.
HJ
Paul Lefebvre wrote:
> 4oz. has worked well for me on several strip kayaks and canoes; I don't
> think the reduction in strength vs. 6oz. is too much at this scale, but it
> still provides 100% of the protection you need for the wood. It absorbs far
> less resin and really helps keep things lightweight - it's also easier to
> fill the weave, so less work on subsequent coats of epoxy and sanding, which
> is real nice. Put extra layers in high wear areas (stem, middle of bottom if
> you'll be beaching, etc) and keep everything else light with one layer. 4oz
> is not easy to find in mainstream stores, but it's readily available from
> outfits like Raka and others.
>
> Paul L.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> txsailor37
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:55 AM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [bolger] Question? What weight of F.G. cloth?????
>
>
> I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the outside
> of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several options on
> weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz seems
> like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance here??
>
> BOBBY
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, eheins@c... wrote:
For what it is worth - here is what the Cold Cure manual says. It
seems to indicate that using a heavy cloth gains little and uses a
lot more epoxy. This from a company that exists by selling epoxy:-)
However I have heard that using too light a cloth is not so easy to
apply (It may tend to "float") - so a 4 oz seems about right. Double
up on the abrasion-prone areas with bias cut tape. 4 oz seems to fit
into corners and over edges more easily too.
Because the fiberglass is structural to the
epoxy coating rather than the part, it's
possible to use a lightweight cloth. Don't use
a cloth a that is too heavy for the intended
service, you'll use a lot more epoxy and have
a heavier part, gaining little else. Tests run
with Cold Cure epoxy show no appreciable
difference in peel strength between the two
most popular finishes of fiberglass cloth,
Volan and Silane. Four and six ounce cloth
are nearly invisible when wet out with clear
epoxy resin. Heavier weight cloths begin to
show the weave pattern under certain
lighting conditions.
Avoid using fiberglass mat with epoxy resins.
The binder that holds the mat together is
designed to be dissolved by the styrene in
polyester resins. Most epoxies don't use
styrene as a diluent, making it almost impossible
to wet out the mat. Woven roving is wet
out well by epoxy although we know of no
reason to use it when building a wooden boat.
Nels
>the glass.
> In my opinion it depends on what you are trying to achieve with
For what it is worth - here is what the Cold Cure manual says. It
seems to indicate that using a heavy cloth gains little and uses a
lot more epoxy. This from a company that exists by selling epoxy:-)
However I have heard that using too light a cloth is not so easy to
apply (It may tend to "float") - so a 4 oz seems about right. Double
up on the abrasion-prone areas with bias cut tape. 4 oz seems to fit
into corners and over edges more easily too.
Because the fiberglass is structural to the
epoxy coating rather than the part, it's
possible to use a lightweight cloth. Don't use
a cloth a that is too heavy for the intended
service, you'll use a lot more epoxy and have
a heavier part, gaining little else. Tests run
with Cold Cure epoxy show no appreciable
difference in peel strength between the two
most popular finishes of fiberglass cloth,
Volan and Silane. Four and six ounce cloth
are nearly invisible when wet out with clear
epoxy resin. Heavier weight cloths begin to
show the weave pattern under certain
lighting conditions.
Avoid using fiberglass mat with epoxy resins.
The binder that holds the mat together is
designed to be dissolved by the styrene in
polyester resins. Most epoxies don't use
styrene as a diluent, making it almost impossible
to wet out the mat. Woven roving is wet
out well by epoxy although we know of no
reason to use it when building a wooden boat.
Nels
On 1/5/06, eheins wrote:
is the *designer* trying to achieve with the glass.
For the Bolger Topaz Spyder, that I am building at the moment, Phil
Bolger was quite explicit about location and sizing of the fiberglass.
[And where he wasn't explicit, I asked him and he answered].
I haven't seen Chebacco plans, but I presume the plan notes say what
weight of glass to use, and if they don't, someone should ask Phil
Bolger.
For self designed boats, make your own judgement.
It is a tradeoff of cost/time, weight, strength and moisture barrier.
> ...it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the glass.In the case of boats designed by a designer, the real question is what
is the *designer* trying to achieve with the glass.
For the Bolger Topaz Spyder, that I am building at the moment, Phil
Bolger was quite explicit about location and sizing of the fiberglass.
[And where he wasn't explicit, I asked him and he answered].
I haven't seen Chebacco plans, but I presume the plan notes say what
weight of glass to use, and if they don't, someone should ask Phil
Bolger.
For self designed boats, make your own judgement.
It is a tradeoff of cost/time, weight, strength and moisture barrier.
In my opinion it depends on what you are trying to achieve with the glass.
Most wooden boats are glued & screwed together so that the structural
integrity is there regardless of the cloth. If you intend the epoxy to
strengthen a joint or such then it's one thing. On my Chebacco I used
heavy tape (multiple layers) on the joints and only a 3 oz cloth over the
whole topsides, then a thickened epoxy paste over all to be able to fair
nicely. I was only using the cloth to prevent the checking of the A/B ply
I used. It seems to have worked well so far.
Most wooden boats are glued & screwed together so that the structural
integrity is there regardless of the cloth. If you intend the epoxy to
strengthen a joint or such then it's one thing. On my Chebacco I used
heavy tape (multiple layers) on the joints and only a 3 oz cloth over the
whole topsides, then a thickened epoxy paste over all to be able to fair
nicely. I was only using the cloth to prevent the checking of the A/B ply
I used. It seems to have worked well so far.
> Hi Bobby,
>
>> I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the
> outside
>> of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several
> options on
>> weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz
> seems
>> like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance
> here??
>
> I used a "special" 5 oz. cloth from Raka on my Light Schooner. It
> was advertised as being as strong or stronger than normal 6 oz.
> cloth, but if doing it again, I'd use the 6 oz. cloth instead. The 5
> oz. cloth just never seemed stout enough for that size hull. I've
> used 6 oz. cloth since then on my FastBrick and Long Dory hulls and
> have been happy with the result. I've also used 5 oz. Dynel on a
> canoe hull, and while it was nice to work with, it seemed to take a
> lot of epoxy to fill the weave and get a good smooth finish. I'm
> getting ready to glass a Diablo hull this weekend with 10 oz. cloth,
> which looks like it will take a good amount of epoxy to fill. A 14'
> Michalak Robote I'm slowly messing around with will get 6 oz. cloth.
>
> For Bobcat, I don't think you could go wrong with 6 oz. cloth, since
> the weight difference between that and 4 oz. cloth will be minimal in
> that size boat. Besides, you won't likely be car-topping this boat
> anyway, so a couple pounds more weight won't hurt anything. If you
> do use lighter cloth, you might want to double up on the stem,
> bottom, or other areas you think will be high wear, but I'd rather
> just glass things one time.
>
> No matter what cloth you use, be sure to seal the plywood first with
> a coat of epoxy, lightly sanded and wiped down. In my experience,
> this step will make any glassing job turn out an order of magnitude
> better than glassing bare plywood.
>
> Jon Kolb
>http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Hi Bobby,
I used a "special" 5 oz. cloth from Raka on my Light Schooner. It
was advertised as being as strong or stronger than normal 6 oz.
cloth, but if doing it again, I'd use the 6 oz. cloth instead. The 5
oz. cloth just never seemed stout enough for that size hull. I've
used 6 oz. cloth since then on my FastBrick and Long Dory hulls and
have been happy with the result. I've also used 5 oz. Dynel on a
canoe hull, and while it was nice to work with, it seemed to take a
lot of epoxy to fill the weave and get a good smooth finish. I'm
getting ready to glass a Diablo hull this weekend with 10 oz. cloth,
which looks like it will take a good amount of epoxy to fill. A 14'
Michalak Robote I'm slowly messing around with will get 6 oz. cloth.
For Bobcat, I don't think you could go wrong with 6 oz. cloth, since
the weight difference between that and 4 oz. cloth will be minimal in
that size boat. Besides, you won't likely be car-topping this boat
anyway, so a couple pounds more weight won't hurt anything. If you
do use lighter cloth, you might want to double up on the stem,
bottom, or other areas you think will be high wear, but I'd rather
just glass things one time.
No matter what cloth you use, be sure to seal the plywood first with
a coat of epoxy, lightly sanded and wiped down. In my experience,
this step will make any glassing job turn out an order of magnitude
better than glassing bare plywood.
Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
> I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do theoutside
> of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are severaloptions on
> weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 ozseems
> like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidancehere??
I used a "special" 5 oz. cloth from Raka on my Light Schooner. It
was advertised as being as strong or stronger than normal 6 oz.
cloth, but if doing it again, I'd use the 6 oz. cloth instead. The 5
oz. cloth just never seemed stout enough for that size hull. I've
used 6 oz. cloth since then on my FastBrick and Long Dory hulls and
have been happy with the result. I've also used 5 oz. Dynel on a
canoe hull, and while it was nice to work with, it seemed to take a
lot of epoxy to fill the weave and get a good smooth finish. I'm
getting ready to glass a Diablo hull this weekend with 10 oz. cloth,
which looks like it will take a good amount of epoxy to fill. A 14'
Michalak Robote I'm slowly messing around with will get 6 oz. cloth.
For Bobcat, I don't think you could go wrong with 6 oz. cloth, since
the weight difference between that and 4 oz. cloth will be minimal in
that size boat. Besides, you won't likely be car-topping this boat
anyway, so a couple pounds more weight won't hurt anything. If you
do use lighter cloth, you might want to double up on the stem,
bottom, or other areas you think will be high wear, but I'd rather
just glass things one time.
No matter what cloth you use, be sure to seal the plywood first with
a coat of epoxy, lightly sanded and wiped down. In my experience,
this step will make any glassing job turn out an order of magnitude
better than glassing bare plywood.
Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
4oz. has worked well for me on several strip kayaks and canoes; I don't
think the reduction in strength vs. 6oz. is too much at this scale, but it
still provides 100% of the protection you need for the wood. It absorbs far
less resin and really helps keep things lightweight - it's also easier to
fill the weave, so less work on subsequent coats of epoxy and sanding, which
is real nice. Put extra layers in high wear areas (stem, middle of bottom if
you'll be beaching, etc) and keep everything else light with one layer. 4oz
is not easy to find in mainstream stores, but it's readily available from
outfits like Raka and others.
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
txsailor37
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:55 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Question? What weight of F.G. cloth?????
I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the outside
of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several options on
weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz seems
like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance here??
BOBBY
Bolger rules!!!
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horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
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think the reduction in strength vs. 6oz. is too much at this scale, but it
still provides 100% of the protection you need for the wood. It absorbs far
less resin and really helps keep things lightweight - it's also easier to
fill the weave, so less work on subsequent coats of epoxy and sanding, which
is real nice. Put extra layers in high wear areas (stem, middle of bottom if
you'll be beaching, etc) and keep everything else light with one layer. 4oz
is not easy to find in mainstream stores, but it's readily available from
outfits like Raka and others.
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
txsailor37
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 7:55 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Question? What weight of F.G. cloth?????
I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the outside
of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several options on
weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz seems
like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance here??
BOBBY
Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
I was going to order some fiberglass cloth last night to do the outside
of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several options on
weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz seems
like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance here??
BOBBY
of the hull on my Bobcat. I realized that there are several options on
weight. 6 oz seems that it would be kind of heavy, while 2.4 oz seems
like it would be kind of thin. Can anyone give me some guidance here??
BOBBY