Re: [bolger] Re: Laminating 1" bottom from 1/2" plywood using ringshank nails.
Another on the list of "if only life were long enough to build all the
boats I want to build"
HJ
Bruce Hallman wrote:
boats I want to build"
HJ
Bruce Hallman wrote:
> --Snip--
> The only other similar boat that
> comes to mind is a George Caulkins Bartender.
>
>http://bartenderboats.com/photo-album.html
>
>
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 10:06:52 -0800, Bruce Hallman wrote:
Bruce Crandall's 135 cu. in. class (1936 rules) Flyer:
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Flyer-1.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Flyer-2.gif
LOA:15' 2"
LWL:14' 8"
Beam:5'
Of course Wm. Atkin tried to get speed without using a lot of power.
Needle is a long, lean V-
bottom. She doesn't plane, but cuts through the water. I'd love to see one
built! (are you listening Hugo? <g>)
Billy Atkin's Needle (pre 1936):
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Needle-1B.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Needle-2B.gif
LOA: 25' 10"
LWL:25'
Beam:5'
Draft:1' 6"
"For satisfactory performance do not install a motor weighing much over
275 pounds, nor of
much over 70 cu. in. cylinder capacity. This will be a power plant of
approximately 2 5/8 inch
bore by 3 inch stroke and of four cylinders. Turning at 1,800 to 2,000
turns a minute the
power should be sufficient to turn a 10 inch diameter by 12 inch pitch two
blade propeller and
produce a speed of 18 miles an hour. The hull does not require much over
18 hp. for it's
maximum speed."
Next, here's one of Billy's V-bottom Seabright skiffs, interesting designs
whatever twist he puts
to them.
Billy Atkin's Galilee (pre 1929):
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Galilee-1B.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Galilee-2B.gif
LOA:24'
LWL:23'
Beam:4' 6"
Draft:11"
Disp:1,550 lb.
"...this is not a boat for excessive motor power. Twenty hp. is ample and
thirty will give this
one a speed of better than 23 miles an hour. I should say 16 to 20 hp.
would be ideal."
Billy Atkin's rampant is a rip-snorting high-power runabout. She measure
22' by 5'3" and has her engine aft with a V-drive. A 550 pound, 214 cu.
in. 53 hp. engine will drive her 26 mph. "I am now referring to real miles
an hour through the water. And not paper miles. There is a whale of a
difference, you know."
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Rampant-1.gif
"The more I look into the subject the more I believe in sharp sterned
boats. For one thing just
as soon as the speed goes over 20 miles an hour the problem of wind
resistance is a serious
matter and the better the above water form of the boat is streamlined the
better the boat will
go. Then too the sharp stern is stronger than the wide transom stern, and
certainly is more
symmetrical. If, and when, you get stuck out in rough water you will bless
the sharp stern
and this alone is worth any faults it may posess."
--
John <jkohnen@...>
I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn't make it
worse. <Brendan Behan>
>Planing double-enders used to be common before WW II. Here are a few:
> The Topaz is an interesting shape for a planing boat. Unlike most of
> the other planing boats that I see, the Topaz has a relatively small
> 'trailing edge'. I can see that a warp or twist in the trailing edge
> might have a powerful effect on trim. The Topaz is a long planing
> boat with a pointed trailing end. The only other similar boat that
> comes to mind is a George Caulkins Bartender.
>
>http://bartenderboats.com/photo-album.html
> ...
Bruce Crandall's 135 cu. in. class (1936 rules) Flyer:
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Flyer-1.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Flyer-2.gif
LOA:15' 2"
LWL:14' 8"
Beam:5'
Of course Wm. Atkin tried to get speed without using a lot of power.
Needle is a long, lean V-
bottom. She doesn't plane, but cuts through the water. I'd love to see one
built! (are you listening Hugo? <g>)
Billy Atkin's Needle (pre 1936):
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Needle-1B.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Needle-2B.gif
LOA: 25' 10"
LWL:25'
Beam:5'
Draft:1' 6"
"For satisfactory performance do not install a motor weighing much over
275 pounds, nor of
much over 70 cu. in. cylinder capacity. This will be a power plant of
approximately 2 5/8 inch
bore by 3 inch stroke and of four cylinders. Turning at 1,800 to 2,000
turns a minute the
power should be sufficient to turn a 10 inch diameter by 12 inch pitch two
blade propeller and
produce a speed of 18 miles an hour. The hull does not require much over
18 hp. for it's
maximum speed."
Next, here's one of Billy's V-bottom Seabright skiffs, interesting designs
whatever twist he puts
to them.
Billy Atkin's Galilee (pre 1929):
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Galilee-1B.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Galilee-2B.gif
LOA:24'
LWL:23'
Beam:4' 6"
Draft:11"
Disp:1,550 lb.
"...this is not a boat for excessive motor power. Twenty hp. is ample and
thirty will give this
one a speed of better than 23 miles an hour. I should say 16 to 20 hp.
would be ideal."
Billy Atkin's rampant is a rip-snorting high-power runabout. She measure
22' by 5'3" and has her engine aft with a V-drive. A 550 pound, 214 cu.
in. 53 hp. engine will drive her 26 mph. "I am now referring to real miles
an hour through the water. And not paper miles. There is a whale of a
difference, you know."
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/OtherBoats/Rampant-1.gif
"The more I look into the subject the more I believe in sharp sterned
boats. For one thing just
as soon as the speed goes over 20 miles an hour the problem of wind
resistance is a serious
matter and the better the above water form of the boat is streamlined the
better the boat will
go. Then too the sharp stern is stronger than the wide transom stern, and
certainly is more
symmetrical. If, and when, you get stuck out in rough water you will bless
the sharp stern
and this alone is worth any faults it may posess."
--
John <jkohnen@...>
I have never seen a situation so dismal that a policeman couldn't make it
worse. <Brendan Behan>
> While I appreciate your "tolerance for some imperfection",The Topaz is an interesting shape for a planing boat. Unlike most of
> I subscribe to the same philosophy out of necessity, be
> careful with the bottom. Planing boats with warps or twists
> in the bottom don't perform as well as they could.
>
> hal
the other planing boats that I see, the Topaz has a relatively small
'trailing edge'. I can see that a warp or twist in the trailing edge
might have a powerful effect on trim. The Topaz is a long planing
boat with a pointed trailing end. The only other similar boat that
comes to mind is a George Caulkins Bartender.
http://bartenderboats.com/photo-album.html
Not to mention, my omission of the "build a fabrication table, then
disassemble it" chore doesn't seem to have causes a lot of warp and
twist. [But it did save me a lot of time and cost]. I am also happy
with using 'stay in place' silicon bronze ring shank nails instead of
drywall screws, that also saves lots of time.
Part of the flatness comes from the Bolger design that calls for the
lamination of two 1/2" sheets with the butts at maximum stagger. The
warps in the top panel tend to average and cancel out the warps in the
bottom panel, especially including the natural 'kink' you can get at
the 'Payson' butt joints.
To my eye, the warping or twisting is less, [and in most places much
less], than one inch in ten feet. That is a fraction of a percent,
and would be much less that the heel of a boat with a fat guy in the
helm seat. Even this small twist, I am optomistic, will come out when
I square up and fasten the bulkhead frames and the sides.
On Jan 19, 2006, at 9:42 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
I subscribe to the same philosophy out of necessity, be
careful with the bottom. Planing boats with warps or twists
in the bottom don't perform as well as they could.
hal
> I have a tolerance for some imperfection,While I appreciate your "tolerance for some imperfection",
> I am not aiming for a immortal monument of a boat, but rather a fun
> party platform at the lake to last five years or so.
I subscribe to the same philosophy out of necessity, be
careful with the bottom. Planing boats with warps or twists
in the bottom don't perform as well as they could.
hal
> Bruce,Well, I will see. But I am quite optimistic that I can force any
> the fore and aft plane,will not give you too much grief as it fights
> to stay twisted.
twisting out with the use of wedges, etc., indeed even 1" inch plywood
is pretty flexible when in a 31 foot long piece. I consider it a
test: Will the time I saved by not building a fabrication table be
eaten up in time spent struggling with a warped bottom plate? Again,
I am optomistic, plus I am far enough into it to see that the maximum
error is an inch or less.. I have a tolerance for some imperfection,
I am not aiming for a immortal monument of a boat, but rather a fun
party platform at the lake to last five years or so.
> So.........no picture of your moaning chair...OOOPS!.....I mean HappyOf course, my moaning chair is next to my shop computer, which is
> Corner?...
tethered to the web cam [too close to be 'in frame'].
Howard Chapelle, (page 22) of _Boatbuilding_, ISBN 0-393-03554-9
= quote: =
"In every amateur boatbuilder's shop their should be a "moaning
chair"; this should be a comfortable seat from which the boat can be
easily seen and in which the builder can sit, smoke, chew, drink, or
swear as the moment demands. Here he should rest often and think
about the next job. The plans should be at hand and here he can
layout out his work. By doing so he will often be able to see
mistakes before they are serious and avoid the curse of all amateur
boatbuilders: starting a job before figuring out what has to be done
to get it right."
========
>Rick Bedard wrote:Indeed true! I don't know whether it is proper to count the hours
>Anyone else notice that Bruce cut a huge hole in his house to build his Topaz?
spent remodeling the shop as hours spent on the building the boat.
The remodel took the better part of two weekends.
Anyone else notice that Bruce cut a huge hole in his house to build his Topaz?
Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
Peter Lenihan,who doesn't even want to mention how incredibly envious
I am of beautiful California weather, even though I am sorely tempted
to go on ,and on and on about how lucky some folks are to have such
beautifully warm weather ALL YEAR LONG..............:-)
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Peter Lenihan <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
Peter Lenihan,who doesn't even want to mention how incredibly envious
I am of beautiful California weather, even though I am sorely tempted
to go on ,and on and on about how lucky some folks are to have such
beautifully warm weather ALL YEAR LONG..............:-)
>Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS
Boating magazine Alaska outdoors Boating safety Great outdoors
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
Pretty tight building spot you've got there! I too sure hope that
when the bottom is right-side up,you'll be able to trim her perfectly
plumb and level and that the laminated panel,while pretty flexible in
the fore and aft plane,will not give you too much grief as it fights
to stay twisted. Perhaps a temporary ladder strongback(made from 2X6 B
grade lumber and some 2X4 for transverse bits),with horizontals placed
at the appropriate elevation per station heights,onto which you could
temporarily screw the bottom to before installing the bulkheads etc...
thus you will only have to pay attention to the plumbness(is that a
word?) of each bulkhead/station/frame instead of ALSO their levelness
(another invented word?). Topaz Spider is a lovely design and you can
keep building panic parties to a minimum or later regrets by getting
her "perfect" right from the start.
So.........no picture of your moaning chair...OOOPS!.....I mean Happy
Corner?...You know a big project calls for regular rejoicing,at
regular intervals,to re-group ones thoughts and plan the next step :-)
Thanks for the up-date picture!! and continued success with her!!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who doesn't even want to mention how incredibly envious
I am of beautiful California weather, even though I am sorely tempted
to go on ,and on and on about how lucky some folks are to have such
beautifully warm weather ALL YEAR LONG..............:-)
>http://hallman.org/webcam/shop.jpgI
>
> am counting on that I will be able to correct the 1" to 2" oftwisting
> errors later, when I fit the bulkheads and sides to the bottom.Bruce,
Pretty tight building spot you've got there! I too sure hope that
when the bottom is right-side up,you'll be able to trim her perfectly
plumb and level and that the laminated panel,while pretty flexible in
the fore and aft plane,will not give you too much grief as it fights
to stay twisted. Perhaps a temporary ladder strongback(made from 2X6 B
grade lumber and some 2X4 for transverse bits),with horizontals placed
at the appropriate elevation per station heights,onto which you could
temporarily screw the bottom to before installing the bulkheads etc...
thus you will only have to pay attention to the plumbness(is that a
word?) of each bulkhead/station/frame instead of ALSO their levelness
(another invented word?). Topaz Spider is a lovely design and you can
keep building panic parties to a minimum or later regrets by getting
her "perfect" right from the start.
So.........no picture of your moaning chair...OOOPS!.....I mean Happy
Corner?...You know a big project calls for regular rejoicing,at
regular intervals,to re-group ones thoughts and plan the next step :-)
Thanks for the up-date picture!! and continued success with her!!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,who doesn't even want to mention how incredibly envious
I am of beautiful California weather, even though I am sorely tempted
to go on ,and on and on about how lucky some folks are to have such
beautifully warm weather ALL YEAR LONG..............:-)
>
Updating on progress of my Topez Spyder: I'm presently working on the
lamination of the 1" bottom from two layers of 1/2" plywood. I
decided to use 7/8" #14 silicon bronze ringshank nails at about 9
inches on center, instead of the more conventional temporary drywall
screws. Where the bottom is too bouncy to accept a nail, I hold a 3
pound maul underneath to firm it up. Application of the epoxy glue
is quick using an 8 inch drywall taping knife. I am happy with the
result, as it quickly and securely connects the two layers while
eliminating the need for removing the drywall screws and filling the
holes.
http://hallman.org/webcam/shop.jpg
You can see that I cheaped out on building a full scale table for the
assembly, instead I'm using a single strongback, the curved portion
made from the scrap plywood cutoff mate curve of the forefoot center
rib. I am really happy to own a narrow crown air stapler for building
up the temporary strongback, etc. Considerable time is saved, and I
am counting on that I will be able to correct the 1" to 2" of twisting
errors later, when I fit the bulkheads and sides to the bottom.
lamination of the 1" bottom from two layers of 1/2" plywood. I
decided to use 7/8" #14 silicon bronze ringshank nails at about 9
inches on center, instead of the more conventional temporary drywall
screws. Where the bottom is too bouncy to accept a nail, I hold a 3
pound maul underneath to firm it up. Application of the epoxy glue
is quick using an 8 inch drywall taping knife. I am happy with the
result, as it quickly and securely connects the two layers while
eliminating the need for removing the drywall screws and filling the
holes.
http://hallman.org/webcam/shop.jpg
You can see that I cheaped out on building a full scale table for the
assembly, instead I'm using a single strongback, the curved portion
made from the scrap plywood cutoff mate curve of the forefoot center
rib. I am really happy to own a narrow crown air stapler for building
up the temporary strongback, etc. Considerable time is saved, and I
am counting on that I will be able to correct the 1" to 2" of twisting
errors later, when I fit the bulkheads and sides to the bottom.