Re: Burgundy photos/drawings?

I'd like to have a copy also. My email is

redwolf28386@...

thanks,
John G

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
>
> And newly scanned in a file on my computer, a little over 2 meg
PDF file
> if anybody wants it direct.
>
> HJ
>
> Peter Lenihan wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
> >
> >> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
> >>
> >> James Greene
> >>
> >
> > In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.
> >
> > Peter Lenihan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

I'd like to have a copy also. My email is

redwolf28386@...

thanks,
John G

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@p...> wrote:
>
> And newly scanned in a file on my computer, a little over 2 meg
PDF file
> if anybody wants it direct.
>
> HJ
>
> Peter Lenihan wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
> >
> >> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
> >>
> >> James Greene
> >>
> >
> > In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.
> >
> > Peter Lenihan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Yes please Harry, use email below. - Bill



Bill Kreamer <kreamer@...>





_____

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Harry James
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:05 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Burgundy photos/drawings?



And newly scanned in a file on my computer, a little over 2 meg PDF file
if anybody wants it direct.

HJ

Peter Lenihan wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
>
>> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
>>
>> James Greene
>>
>
> In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead

horses

> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:

(978) 282-1349

> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would love to see it now that I've read so much about it here. Clyde
clydewis@...

Harry James wrote:

> And newly scanned in a file on my computer, a little over 2 meg PDF file
> if anybody wants it direct.
>
> HJ
>
> Peter Lenihan wrote:
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
> >
> >> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
> >>
> >> James Greene
> >>
> >
> > In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.
> >
> > Peter Lenihan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have scanned the drawings from 30 Odd Boats at 600 dpi. Send me an
> email atdonschultz@..., and I'll fwd them to you.

Thanks Don, my email isjg6892@....

James Greene

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Kreamer" <kreamer@a...> wrote:

>
> Hi resolution Burgundy scan please, someone? Thank you! - Bill
>

I have scanned the drawings from 30 Odd Boats at 600 dpi. Send me an
email atdonschultz@..., and I'll fwd them to you.

Don Schultz

Please send me a copy, thanks!

James Greene

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 18:04:42 -0900, Harry James wrote:
> And newly scanned in a file on my computer, a little over 2 meg PDF file
> if anybody wants it direct.
>
> HJ
>
> Peter Lenihan wrote:
>> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
>>
>>> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
>>>
>>> James Greene
>>>
>>
>> In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.
>>
>> Peter Lenihan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bolger rules!!!
>> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
>> dead horses
>> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
>> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I would use local red or yellow cedar and finish clear. I think it would
be spectacular.

HJ

Bruce Hallman wrote:

> I am thinking like Peter, quality board wood is just not available for
> less than the price of gold.
>
> If it were me building a Burgundy, I would use 1/2" (5 ply) rated fir
> sheathing at $18/sheet. Split into thirds, you would get 2'8" x 4'0"
> pieces which could be stagger butt joined into a 1" thick lamination
> 30 feet long quickly with little waste.
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

And newly scanned in a file on my computer, a little over 2 meg PDF file
if anybody wants it direct.

HJ

Peter Lenihan wrote:

> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
>
>> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
>>
>> James Greene
>>
>
> In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

>
> I am thinking like Peter, quality board wood is just not available

for

> less than the price of gold.
>
> If it were me building a Burgundy, I would use 1/2" (5 ply) rated fir
> sheathing at $18/sheet. Split into thirds, you would get 2'8" x 4'0"
> pieces which could be stagger butt joined into a 1" thick lamination
> 30 feet long quickly with little waste.

Another beauitful hull shape and interesting read is the Egret spin-
off Presto Cruiser on page 257 in BWAOM.

Bolger recommends cold-molding over over his first thought of carvel
planking over bent frame construction. And for ballast, re-bar
installed athwartship, set in concrete (to give added hull strength in
a grounding).

He also mentions using sail track as an option rather the lacing shown.

Looks to me like the motor is awfully close to the outer rudder edge
when lowered. I guess the motor is locked in forward and one steers
the boat with the tiller when motoring?
Nels

I am thinking like Peter, quality board wood is just not available for
less than the price of gold.

If it were me building a Burgundy, I would use 1/2" (5 ply) rated fir
sheathing at $18/sheet. Split into thirds, you would get 2'8" x 4'0"
pieces which could be stagger butt joined into a 1" thick lamination
30 feet long quickly with little waste.

I'm with Nels; Burgundy is just as beautiful as Rozinante, but in a
different way.

All this talk got the synapses in the cranium firing and somewhere
(maybe a MAIB article?) Bolger mentioned that he knew of a Burgundy
being built -- in plywood.

Which is how I would probably do it. Harbor Sales in Baltimore sells
5-foot wide ply and will scarf to any length (at least they used to).
So a 5' by 30' foot panel would be big enough to cut both sides from,
with little waste. The vertical frames could be dispensed with, but I
have a longitudinal stringer in the middle. Bottom would be 3-4
layers of 1/2 inch ply. Also, since I hate melting large weights of
lead and trying to drill long straight homes, the wooden keel would
be replaced with a hollow metal fin, which a flange for bolting to
the bottom. Loose lead would be stacked in the bottom and held in
place with epoxy or polyester resin.

Masts would be a problem, as it wouldn't do to leave the sails wound
around the mast down here in hurricane country. Carbon fiber would be
light and strong enough to allow halyards (and reefing), but would
probably cost as much as the rest of the boat. It might be possible
to buy some cast off windsurfer spars, splice them together and
strengthen them to do the job. More expensive than wood, but
hopefully not a bank breaker.(I picked up a broken 18-foot carbon
fiber mast for $20 and for around $150 to $200 of epoxy and carbon
fiber, I think it's going to work out as a mainmast on our Frolic2.)
The Burgundy mizzen is about the size of a medium/large windusrfer
sail . . .

As for the non-draining cockpit, a cover, backed up by a battery,
solar cell, and automatic bilge pump would do.

Not that I've thought much about this boat, how beautiful it is, how
to build it, or how much fun it would be to sail . . .

Gary Blankenship

Where could I get a look at burgundy? Couldn't google a picture.

On Jan 20, 2006, at 12:37 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:

> Being a devil's advocate....
>
> > the tyranny of the 4x8 plywood sheet.
>
> Per cubic inch, per board foot, board wood is often cheaper than
> plywood.
> Some believe that it can be more rot resistant too.
>
> >does not self-drain of rainwater,
>
> Neither does Rozinante. A well fitted rain tarp over the cockpit
> would mitigate, no?
>
> > no engine,
>
> True, but if simplicity/economy is the goal, this is an asset.
>
> > noisy sharpie bow,
>
> What can I say? Some people like the sound of splashing water, I know
> that I prefer it to the sound of clanking steel halyards on aluminum
> masts, or the shriek of wind though high tension shrouds and
> spreaders.
>
> > sail meant to stay on the masts
>
> No halyards. Quick, simple, effective, cheap, quite.
>
> > (where they get grey and dingy).
>
> Just the outer layer, and a strategically placed strip of 'Sunbrella'
> fabric sewn in by the sailmaker would fix that.
>
> >These things are not popular with folks who can
> > otherwise afford a Rozinante or an Alerion Express. These things are
> > not popular with enough people to ensure a decent resale value.
>
> *If* you could afford a fancier boat go for it, but that makes the
> point:
>
> If you cannot afford the masterpiece, so be it. But you *can* have
> the function of a Rozinante at a fraction of the cost if you want it.
>
> With a frugal attitude, a Burgundy could be had on the cheap and
> quick.
>
> A gold plated Burgundy would be foolish considering the resale value,
> but a cheaply built Burgundy would bring lots of bang for the buck.
>
> To me, Burgundy looks like a scaled up Teal,
> with a simple stout keel bolted to the bottom.
> It could hardly be more simple.
>
> P.S. Didn't Bolger mention Rozinante in his latest MAIB article?
> I think he said that he prefered the original gaff rig.
>
> P.P.S. That cartoon of the 'original' pre-production Dovekie was
> new to me.
> Had it ever been published before?
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
> 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats"
<lillistone@b...> wrote:
she is meant

> to be built of the same sorts of materials as used in Rozinante

and

> other high-quality plank-on-frame carvel boats. As I think Phil
> Bolger mentions in the essay about Burgundy, that means pine, oak,
> bronze and lead.
>
> If one wants such a boat, Burgundy allows the aim to be achieved

in

> a fraction of the time, using a fraction of the money - but

without

> any sacrifice to the quality of construction. For a boat left on a
> mooring, I would much prefer Burgundy's construction method than
> plywood. However, for the dry-sailed small boats which most of us
> build, plywood is the material of choice.
>
> Ross Lillistone

Ross,
You are most correct in pointing out what Phils' intentions were.
I think too that it is equally important to point out that Burgundy
and our Heros comments are over a quarter century old by now and
some things have changed slightly.To wit,it would be a costly
exercise today to get hold of good quality pine planking that isn't
all second/third etc growth and soft as hell.It can be done of
course,but its' gonna cost a pretty penny:-)
Add to this the business of caulking that second growth pine.This is
not a commonly used technique anymore;that is,few people/yards know
how to do it right,the first time, and it would take very little for
an untrained hand to over drive the caulking.In a short number of
seasons,her seams would be all shot to blazes and the desperate
owner just about ready to roast weiners over one huge boat-shaped
bonfire or wrap the boat in fiberglass.
Then again,even if the quality lumber were still readily and cheaply
available,one would still need to know how to bevel the plank edges
for a proper caulking seam and then proceed to caulk. I haven't
taken the time to figure out how many linear feet worth of seams are
on Burgundy,but the amateur builder has his work cut out for
himself:-)
Ultimately, the route chosen will depend alot on what the builder
expects from his boat and just how he feels best qualified to build
her"right".

Considering the questionable quality of readily available lumber
today, I would be most inclined to go with good plywood and epoxy
building practices so that I end up with a boat forgiving of all
sorts of neglect,an abundance of up to date material regarding
building practices/maintainence issues and a work force experienced
in handling it should I chose to hire the work out. The boat would
otherwise remain the graceful creature she is and her straight ahead
simplicity of style and rig maintained.With any kind of luck, I
could reasonably hope to pass her on to the next generation without
having sold one of the kids to pay for her up-keep :-) Being built
out of good quality plywood,she will also be a familiar and re-
assuring material thing for any potential buyers who may be
otherwise attracted but frightened at the thought of maintaining
a "traditional" planked boat......or so I would imagine :-)
Also,being out of plywood, one forever has the option of leaving her
on a mooring or trailering/dry sailing her.The planked version
limits one to staying in the wet and going through the haul-out dry-
n-shrink annual routine.
The fact that she is not optimized for plywood construction,as
presented, is of little consequence since those nice long off-cuts
have "smaller boat(s)" written all over them :-)

Happy boat-building to all!


Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan,plywood die-hard and lover of Port...........

Hi resolution Burgundy scan please, someone? Thank you! - Bill



_____

From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Peter Lenihan
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 11:04 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Burgundy photos/drawings?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:
>
> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
>
> James Greene

In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.

Peter Lenihan
>






Bolger rules!!!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, James Greene <jg6892@g...> wrote:

>
> Where are the pictures of Burgundy?
>
> James Greene

In the Bolger book,30 ODD BOATS....now out of print,sadly.

Peter Lenihan

>

Where are the pictures of Burgundy?

James Greene

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats"
<lillistone@b...> wrote:

>
> Hi Nels,
>
> The best explanation is to paraphrase Phil Bolger regarding
> Burgundy, "...She has no true keel, no clamp, no floor timbers, no
> breasthooks, no rabbets.....no standing rigging; no wire, no

tangs,

> no terminals, no turnbuckles, no chainplates....sprit booms

dispense

> with travelers, vangs, and half the sheet blocks and cordage....no
> halyards, sheaves, or tracks...." The result of all of this is

that

> she can be built in a fraction of the time required to build a
> Rozinante, for a fraction of the cost. Maintanence is reduced
> accordingly, and yet you still end up with a boat which has

required

> no compromise in the quality of construction. Accomodations are
> about the same usable volume as in Rozinante, which are spartan
> anyway.

That could be said for many of his designs - except for the spartan
accomodations.

>
> To my eye, Burgundy is as beautiful as Rozinante - but different.
> Functionally, I believe that Burgundy is the superior design.

I guess it depends on what one desires most - eye candy or
practicality;-)

Nels - Who does most of his traveling in a Chevy van yet still loves
his MGB:-)

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:

> 1) For people who like a Chebacco, the added size brings only a

little

> added capability.

I think it would be quite a lot more capable in a river with
current - as it planes according to PCB.

> 2) It's a pretty complicated boat with a lot of parts. I would

guess

> that Red Zinger, for example, be better in most respects

(appearance

> aside) and not take longer to build.

Doesn't have the huge centerboard encroaching on the cabin. Nor the
deep keel of Burgundy. And is not that much more complicated than
Burgundy and is more trailerable than either.

> 3) The ply planking is over 25' long which means that each strake

has

> three butts. And the strakes are narrow which means there are a

lot of

> them.

Could be strip-planked also - which is quite cheap and simple as
Bruce points out:-)

>
> I sure would like to see one.

All the Chebaccos are elegant to my eye. I love the bow entry
profiles especially.

>
> Peter
>

Hi Jeb,

I don't have a scanner, sorry. But send me your mail address (off the
list,badley@...) and I'll get a photocopy of the article
made the next time I'm in town and put it in the post.

RonB.

...long since over the edge with 9 boats and counting, from the rocky
shores of Halfmoon Bay, B.C..

On 20-Jan-06, at 9:09 AM, Jack&Lois wrote:

>
> for encouragement and details. I would indeed love to see the Henderson
> article if there's any way you can post it, Ron. Not counting the
> keel, I'm

Hi Nels,

The best explanation is to paraphrase Phil Bolger regarding
Burgundy, "...She has no true keel, no clamp, no floor timbers, no
breasthooks, no rabbets.....no standing rigging; no wire, no tangs,
no terminals, no turnbuckles, no chainplates....sprit booms dispense
with travelers, vangs, and half the sheet blocks and cordage....no
halyards, sheaves, or tracks...." The result of all of this is that
she can be built in a fraction of the time required to build a
Rozinante, for a fraction of the cost. Maintanence is reduced
accordingly, and yet you still end up with a boat which has required
no compromise in the quality of construction. Accomodations are
about the same usable volume as in Rozinante, which are spartan
anyway.

To my eye, Burgundy is as beautiful as Rozinante - but different.
Functionally, I believe that Burgundy is the superior design.

If I had a deep water mooring, I might build one, but I'm stuck with
trailerable boats.

Ross Lillistone

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats"
> <lillistone@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Nels, I think you have missed the point with Burgundy - For a
> boat left on a
> > mooring, I would much prefer Burgundy's construction method than
> > plywood. However, for the dry-sailed small boats which most of
us
> > build, plywood is the material of choice.
> >
> > Ross Lillistone
> >
> Hi Ross,
>
> I am curious as to why you consider Burgundy's construction method
> to be preferable to plywood?
>
> Lestat, which is constructed from MDO, and only glassed to the
> waterline, has been on a mooring for most of it's 13 years of
life
> in the summer months - stored outdoors in the winter and trailered
> for thousands of miles and yet is as sound as the day it hit the
> water.
>
> There is no oak to my knowledge in it's construction, but it does
> have mahogany, pine, bronze, brass and lead and they all work
> beautifully.
>
> However it is not a Rosizante and I was not aware that Burgundy
was
> offered as a cheaper version of that classic design.
>
> I then have to wonder - why not build a Rozinante in the first
place
> using the same construction method? Why is it considered that much
> more expensive to construct?
>
> The complete lack of any interior accomodations in Burgundy also
has
> to be considered in the outlay of effort. It would seem to me to
be
> a pretty expensive day sailor in my estimation. (Disregarding the
> moorage fees.)
>
> Nels, Who is playing the devils advocate to Bruce's devil:-)
>

> The 25 footer Chebacco is a case in point.
> I have to wonder why this
> design has never been built?

1) For people who like a Chebacco, the added size brings only a little
added capability.
2) It's a pretty complicated boat with a lot of parts. I would guess
that Red Zinger, for example, be better in most respects (appearance
aside) and not take longer to build.
3) The ply planking is over 25' long which means that each strake has
three butts. And the strakes are narrow which means there are a lot of
them.

I sure would like to see one.

Peter

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John B. Trussell"
<John.Trussell@w...> wrote:

> I recently built a 19 ft plywood boat using 3/8's " MDO. I'm in

my 60's and

> I'm not the man I used to be, but a 19' 3/8" plywood plank is

heavy, floppy,

> and unweildy. I think a 28', 1/2 " panel would require a crew of

two or

> three people to assemble and put into place. This crew would only

be needed

> for a portion of the building process; most of the rest could be

done single

> handed.

I agree John,

Strip planking is certainly a viable alternative, as is plywood
lapstrake if one is working alone.

The 25 footer Chebacco is a case in point. I have to wonder why this
design has never been built? PCB claims it planes with a 15 HP motor
which is mounted on the centerline and invisible from shoreline
observation. To me it has classic lines and an interior made for
camping aboard.

The hullform is about as endearing to my eye as any I have seen.

Nels

> > From what I have read, plywood can be used to build lapstrake

boats,

> > cold-molded round bilged hulls, muli-chined designs and the box
> > boats that he has perfected as being quite easy to build and
> > relatively formidable in performance.
> >
> > So where does the tyranny come into it? Sawing sheets of plywood
> > into straight lengths and scarfing them into even longer lengths

is

> > fairly simple and straightforward in my experience and you

usually

> > end up with hulls that are quite fair and smooth, especially when
> > using MDO. (You can even purchase it pre-painted, pre-scarfed to
> > long lengths and fully sealed from moisture and weather effects

such

> > as UV damage. The only method plywood does not suit is strip
> > planking.
> >
> > If a person uses G1S crezon MDO and does all the finishing
> > themselves and then compares the cost and work to first shop for

and

> > obtain relatively clear pine, rip it into strips, plane it and

nail

> > and glue it into place, you still have to fair and sand the hull

to

> > even get close to the finish of a hull assembled from crezon.
> >
> > So you do all this and you still have to glass and paint it and

once

> > the design is finished it would look very much like a plywood

boat!

> >
> > Bolger also mentions in BWAOM that he advises any builder of

Jesse

> > Cooper to use plywood for the bottom rather than cross planking,
> > like I think is specified for Burgundy. High quality marine grade
> > plywood is simply more structually stable than softwood planking

in

> > most applications, and is more foolproof (and waterproof) than

edge

> > nailing soild wood.
> >
> >
> >> > sail meant to stay on the masts
> >>
> >> No halyards. Quick, simple, effective, cheap, quite.
> >>
> >> > (where they get grey and dingy).
> >>
> >> Just the outer layer, and a strategically placed strip
> > of 'Sunbrella'
> >> fabric sewn in by the sailmaker would fix that.
> >
> > Using sailtrack as Peter L. advises might still be useful to
> > consider.
> >
> >> To me, Burgundy looks like a scaled up Teal,
> >> with a simple stout keel bolted to the bottom.
> >> It could hardly be more simple.
> >
> > Then I wonder why Teal would not also benefit by being built in

the

> > same way?
> >
> > I am also curious as to the building method used for Burgundy.

Would

> > it not have to be built over molds mounted on a strongback?
> >
> > I don't view the keel as being all that simple either having

studied

> > Bud McIntosh's book on how this is accomplished.
> >
> > Also I have to wonder about the interior accomodations in

Burgundy,

> > say as compared to other boats with its dimensions. Must confess

I

> > am enamoured with Newfoundlander in BWAOM and the 25 foot

lapstrake

> > version of Chebacco. Both of which have just as fine an

appearance

> > and potential capability.
> >
> > We all have our obessions:-)
> >
> > Nels
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or

flogging dead

> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,

Fred' posts

> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip

away

> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,

01930, Fax:

> > (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date:

12/30/2005

> >
> >
>

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats"
<lillistone@b...> wrote:

>
> Nels, I think you have missed the point with Burgundy - For a

boat left on a

> mooring, I would much prefer Burgundy's construction method than
> plywood. However, for the dry-sailed small boats which most of us
> build, plywood is the material of choice.
>
> Ross Lillistone
>

Hi Ross,

I am curious as to why you consider Burgundy's construction method
to be preferable to plywood?

Lestat, which is constructed from MDO, and only glassed to the
waterline, has been on a mooring for most of it's 13 years of life
in the summer months - stored outdoors in the winter and trailered
for thousands of miles and yet is as sound as the day it hit the
water.

There is no oak to my knowledge in it's construction, but it does
have mahogany, pine, bronze, brass and lead and they all work
beautifully.

However it is not a Rosizante and I was not aware that Burgundy was
offered as a cheaper version of that classic design.

I then have to wonder - why not build a Rozinante in the first place
using the same construction method? Why is it considered that much
more expensive to construct?

The complete lack of any interior accomodations in Burgundy also has
to be considered in the outlay of effort. It would seem to me to be
a pretty expensive day sailor in my estimation. (Disregarding the
moorage fees.)

Nels, Who is playing the devils advocate to Bruce's devil:-)

"Skillygali" is about the same size (though more heavily ballasted and with
more sail area) as Burgundy and that Skillygali was designed for plywood
with a glued strip planked bottom. Parker has built a number of arc
bottomed sharpies using plywood sheathed with fiberglass. All this suggests
that a Burgundy could be built with plywood.

I recently built a 19 ft plywood boat using 3/8's " MDO. I'm in my 60's and
I'm not the man I used to be, but a 19' 3/8" plywood plank is heavy, floppy,
and unweildy. I think a 28', 1/2 " panel would require a crew of two or
three people to assemble and put into place. This crew would only be needed
for a portion of the building process; most of the rest could be done single
handed.

Burgundy is a very pretty boat and would give great pleasure so long as
there is deep enough water to accomodate her draft.

JohnT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:58 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Burgundy obsession


> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
>>
>> Being a devil's advocate....
>>
>> > the tyranny of the 4x8 plywood sheet.
>>
> I find it rather interesting that Mr. Bolger would consider building
> with plywood to be a form of tyranny!
>
> From what I have read, plywood can be used to build lapstrake boats,
> cold-molded round bilged hulls, muli-chined designs and the box
> boats that he has perfected as being quite easy to build and
> relatively formidable in performance.
>
> So where does the tyranny come into it? Sawing sheets of plywood
> into straight lengths and scarfing them into even longer lengths is
> fairly simple and straightforward in my experience and you usually
> end up with hulls that are quite fair and smooth, especially when
> using MDO. (You can even purchase it pre-painted, pre-scarfed to
> long lengths and fully sealed from moisture and weather effects such
> as UV damage. The only method plywood does not suit is strip
> planking.
>
> If a person uses G1S crezon MDO and does all the finishing
> themselves and then compares the cost and work to first shop for and
> obtain relatively clear pine, rip it into strips, plane it and nail
> and glue it into place, you still have to fair and sand the hull to
> even get close to the finish of a hull assembled from crezon.
>
> So you do all this and you still have to glass and paint it and once
> the design is finished it would look very much like a plywood boat!
>
> Bolger also mentions in BWAOM that he advises any builder of Jesse
> Cooper to use plywood for the bottom rather than cross planking,
> like I think is specified for Burgundy. High quality marine grade
> plywood is simply more structually stable than softwood planking in
> most applications, and is more foolproof (and waterproof) than edge
> nailing soild wood.
>
>
>> > sail meant to stay on the masts
>>
>> No halyards. Quick, simple, effective, cheap, quite.
>>
>> > (where they get grey and dingy).
>>
>> Just the outer layer, and a strategically placed strip
> of 'Sunbrella'
>> fabric sewn in by the sailmaker would fix that.
>
> Using sailtrack as Peter L. advises might still be useful to
> consider.
>
>> To me, Burgundy looks like a scaled up Teal,
>> with a simple stout keel bolted to the bottom.
>> It could hardly be more simple.
>
> Then I wonder why Teal would not also benefit by being built in the
> same way?
>
> I am also curious as to the building method used for Burgundy. Would
> it not have to be built over molds mounted on a strongback?
>
> I don't view the keel as being all that simple either having studied
> Bud McIntosh's book on how this is accomplished.
>
> Also I have to wonder about the interior accomodations in Burgundy,
> say as compared to other boats with its dimensions. Must confess I
> am enamoured with Newfoundlander in BWAOM and the 25 foot lapstrake
> version of Chebacco. Both of which have just as fine an appearance
> and potential capability.
>
> We all have our obessions:-)
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005
>
>

Nels, I think you have missed the point with Burgundy - she is meant
to be built of the same sorts of materials as used in Rozinante and
other high-quality plank-on-frame carvel boats. As I think Phil
Bolger mentions in the essay about Burgundy, that means pine, oak,
bronze and lead.

If one wants such a boat, Burgundy allows the aim to be achieved in
a fraction of the time, using a fraction of the money - but without
any sacrifice to the quality of construction. For a boat left on a
mooring, I would much prefer Burgundy's construction method than
plywood. However, for the dry-sailed small boats which most of us
build, plywood is the material of choice.

Ross Lillistone

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Being a devil's advocate....
> >
> > > the tyranny of the 4x8 plywood sheet.
> >
> I find it rather interesting that Mr. Bolger would consider
building
> with plywood to be a form of tyranny!
>
> From what I have read, plywood can be used to build lapstrake
boats,
> cold-molded round bilged hulls, muli-chined designs and the box
> boats that he has perfected as being quite easy to build and
> relatively formidable in performance.
>
> So where does the tyranny come into it? Sawing sheets of plywood
> into straight lengths and scarfing them into even longer lengths
is
> fairly simple and straightforward in my experience and you usually
> end up with hulls that are quite fair and smooth, especially when
> using MDO. (You can even purchase it pre-painted, pre-scarfed to
> long lengths and fully sealed from moisture and weather effects
such
> as UV damage. The only method plywood does not suit is strip
> planking.
>
> If a person uses G1S crezon MDO and does all the finishing
> themselves and then compares the cost and work to first shop for
and
> obtain relatively clear pine, rip it into strips, plane it and
nail
> and glue it into place, you still have to fair and sand the hull
to
> even get close to the finish of a hull assembled from crezon.
>
> So you do all this and you still have to glass and paint it and
once
> the design is finished it would look very much like a plywood boat!
>
> Bolger also mentions in BWAOM that he advises any builder of Jesse
> Cooper to use plywood for the bottom rather than cross planking,
> like I think is specified for Burgundy. High quality marine grade
> plywood is simply more structually stable than softwood planking
in
> most applications, and is more foolproof (and waterproof) than
edge
> nailing soild wood.
>
>
> > > sail meant to stay on the masts
> >
> > No halyards. Quick, simple, effective, cheap, quite.
> >
> > > (where they get grey and dingy).
> >
> > Just the outer layer, and a strategically placed strip
> of 'Sunbrella'
> > fabric sewn in by the sailmaker would fix that.
>
> Using sailtrack as Peter L. advises might still be useful to
> consider.
>
> > To me, Burgundy looks like a scaled up Teal,
> > with a simple stout keel bolted to the bottom.
> > It could hardly be more simple.
>
> Then I wonder why Teal would not also benefit by being built in
the
> same way?
>
> I am also curious as to the building method used for Burgundy.
Would
> it not have to be built over molds mounted on a strongback?
>
> I don't view the keel as being all that simple either having
studied
> Bud McIntosh's book on how this is accomplished.
>
> Also I have to wonder about the interior accomodations in
Burgundy,
> say as compared to other boats with its dimensions. Must confess I
> am enamoured with Newfoundlander in BWAOM and the 25 foot
lapstrake
> version of Chebacco. Both of which have just as fine an appearance
> and potential capability.
>
> We all have our obessions:-)
>
> Nels
>

> with plywood to be a form of tyranny! ...
> So where does the tyranny come into it?

The sides panels on Burgundy are made 2 ft 5 1/4" high, and that would
cut very inefficiently from a 4 foot wide panel.

> So you do all this and you still have to glass and paint it and once
> the design is finished it would look very much like a plywood boat!

Actually, Burgundy calls for caulking between the boards,
and no fiberglass, I recall.

> Then I wonder why Teal would not also benefit by being built in the
> same way?

Teal has side panels 1'4" high and cut efficiently from 4' sheet of
plywood split in thirds.

> I am also curious as to the building method used for Burgundy. Would
> it not have to be built over molds mounted on a strongback?

<grin> I don't need no stink'n strongbacks. </grin>
If building a Teal is any indication,
the bending of the sides controls
the shape of the profile curve.
Burgundy does have a midships bulkhead and fore and after molds, that
stay in place.

> Also I have to wonder about the interior accomodations in Burgundy,

Simple, Spartan even.

> say as compared to other boats with its dimensions. Must confess I
> am enamoured with Newfoundlander in BWAOM and the 25 foot lapstrake
> version of Chebacco. Both of which have just as fine an appearance
> and potential capability.

I bet a Burgundy could be built quicker and cheaper than a Chebacco.

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@h...> wrote:

>
> Being a devil's advocate....
>
> > the tyranny of the 4x8 plywood sheet.
>

I find it rather interesting that Mr. Bolger would consider building
with plywood to be a form of tyranny!

From what I have read, plywood can be used to build lapstrake boats,
cold-molded round bilged hulls, muli-chined designs and the box
boats that he has perfected as being quite easy to build and
relatively formidable in performance.

So where does the tyranny come into it? Sawing sheets of plywood
into straight lengths and scarfing them into even longer lengths is
fairly simple and straightforward in my experience and you usually
end up with hulls that are quite fair and smooth, especially when
using MDO. (You can even purchase it pre-painted, pre-scarfed to
long lengths and fully sealed from moisture and weather effects such
as UV damage. The only method plywood does not suit is strip
planking.

If a person uses G1S crezon MDO and does all the finishing
themselves and then compares the cost and work to first shop for and
obtain relatively clear pine, rip it into strips, plane it and nail
and glue it into place, you still have to fair and sand the hull to
even get close to the finish of a hull assembled from crezon.

So you do all this and you still have to glass and paint it and once
the design is finished it would look very much like a plywood boat!

Bolger also mentions in BWAOM that he advises any builder of Jesse
Cooper to use plywood for the bottom rather than cross planking,
like I think is specified for Burgundy. High quality marine grade
plywood is simply more structually stable than softwood planking in
most applications, and is more foolproof (and waterproof) than edge
nailing soild wood.

> > sail meant to stay on the masts
>
> No halyards. Quick, simple, effective, cheap, quite.
>
> > (where they get grey and dingy).
>
> Just the outer layer, and a strategically placed strip

of 'Sunbrella'

> fabric sewn in by the sailmaker would fix that.

Using sailtrack as Peter L. advises might still be useful to
consider.

> To me, Burgundy looks like a scaled up Teal,
> with a simple stout keel bolted to the bottom.
> It could hardly be more simple.

Then I wonder why Teal would not also benefit by being built in the
same way?

I am also curious as to the building method used for Burgundy. Would
it not have to be built over molds mounted on a strongback?

I don't view the keel as being all that simple either having studied
Bud McIntosh's book on how this is accomplished.

Also I have to wonder about the interior accomodations in Burgundy,
say as compared to other boats with its dimensions. Must confess I
am enamoured with Newfoundlander in BWAOM and the 25 foot lapstrake
version of Chebacco. Both of which have just as fine an appearance
and potential capability.

We all have our obessions:-)

Nels

> Bruce... no model of this one yet? <G>

Well, actually, I have made a model.
Finding it among the clutter is a different question.

Hi,

Speaking as someone who has designed both ways - to suit a client,
and to suit the muse - designing on spec can be liberating. For some
folks, at some times, following your own instincts - without
constraint from a client - can result in inspired, serendipitous
genius. But, by no means always. Conversely, sometimes the
definition provided by a clients wish list can offer just the push
that'll head you in the right direction. I don't know Bolger's
portfolio the way that Bruce and many others do, but I am always
interested in a person's spec designs. Curious to see if they are
a "home run" effort... or, perhaps, just a sketch in aid of the Next
Design. I get the sense that Bolger has done a fair amount of
such "sketching".

Bruce... no model of this one yet? <G>

Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.

"Art is all of a boat but the wood" - Thoreau

******************

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@y...>
wrote:

>
>
> In reply to several people:
>
> 1) "Speculative Design" means a design not made for a particular
> client, but with the hope of selling it to someone who likes it.
> Sparkler is another. Wish II is another.
>

<SNIP>

>
> Peter

Being a devil's advocate....

> the tyranny of the 4x8 plywood sheet.

Per cubic inch, per board foot, board wood is often cheaper than plywood.
Some believe that it can be more rot resistant too.

>does not self-drain of rainwater,

Neither does Rozinante. A well fitted rain tarp over the cockpit
would mitigate, no?

> no engine,

True, but if simplicity/economy is the goal, this is an asset.

> noisy sharpie bow,

What can I say? Some people like the sound of splashing water, I know
that I prefer it to the sound of clanking steel halyards on aluminum
masts, or the shriek of wind though high tension shrouds and
spreaders.

> sail meant to stay on the masts

No halyards. Quick, simple, effective, cheap, quite.

> (where they get grey and dingy).

Just the outer layer, and a strategically placed strip of 'Sunbrella'
fabric sewn in by the sailmaker would fix that.

>These things are not popular with folks who can
> otherwise afford a Rozinante or an Alerion Express. These things are
> not popular with enough people to ensure a decent resale value.

*If* you could afford a fancier boat go for it, but that makes the point:

If you cannot afford the masterpiece, so be it. But you *can* have
the function of a Rozinante at a fraction of the cost if you want it.

With a frugal attitude, a Burgundy could be had on the cheap and quick.

A gold plated Burgundy would be foolish considering the resale value,
but a cheaply built Burgundy would bring lots of bang for the buck.

To me, Burgundy looks like a scaled up Teal,
with a simple stout keel bolted to the bottom.
It could hardly be more simple.

P.S. Didn't Bolger mention Rozinante in his latest MAIB article?
I think he said that he prefered the original gaff rig.

P.P.S. That cartoon of the 'original' pre-production Dovekie was new to me.
Had it ever been published before?

In reply to several people:

1) "Speculative Design" means a design not made for a particular
client, but with the hope of selling it to someone who likes it.
Sparkler is another. Wish II is another.

2) Peter L's construction suggestions not withstanding, one of the
ideas behind Burgandy was to be free of the tyranny of the 4x8 plywood
sheet. You will probably find that she does not plank efficiently with
ply. Bolger was pleased that she would be build of the same materials
as Rozinante (oak, pine, bronze & lead), and proud of a unique
construction method. The construction is meant to be as efficient as
ply construction, and might actually be so if you have the thickness
planer and joiner or whatever to get out the planks. And a good clean
floor in your shop.

3) As far as I know, none has ever been built. I think we would know,
unless it was built by Howard Hughes. There are several reasons why
the design would not be popular: does not self-drain of rainwater, no
engine, noisy sharpie bow, sail meant to stay on the masts (where they
get grey and dingy). These things are not popular with folks who can
otherwise afford a Rozinante or an Alerion Express. These things are
not popular with enough people to ensure a decent resail value.

4) Keel sharpies can have excellent performance. In this case, I
thinks she would be sweet, with easy speed everywhere but hard on the
wind where the rig is not going to shine.


Peter

> in my desire to build this boat (surprise, surprise). The Bay of Fundy would
> be a hostile environment for Burgundy, especially with a single 12' sculling
> sweep for auxiliary.

I think Bolger has argued, that the worst case is that you must anchor
6 hours to wait out one tide while reading a good book.

I guess I knew in my heart that advice for "sober second thought" would not
likely be forthcoming from this group. Much thanx to Nels, Ron, and Peter
for encouragement and details. I would indeed love to see the Henderson
article if there's any way you can post it, Ron. Not counting the keel, I'm
sure I could use Payson's step by step procedures for Teal if I choose to
use plywood, which would no doubt be the wisest route. That may well be
exactly what I'll do. But practicality doesn't figure very high on the scale
in my desire to build this boat (surprise, surprise). The Bay of Fundy would
be a hostile environment for Burgundy, especially with a single 12' sculling
sweep for auxiliary. But the desire to see this boat take shape in my
workshop is at least as strong as my desire to see her under sail...WHERE
EVER that might be. My compulsion is to build her exactly as she's
presented, except I might use red spruce on ash instead of pine on oak. I
might also use two oars ala Rozinante instead of the single sculling sweep.
For the present I'm banishing images of side motor mounts from my mind. As
is, the letter to PCB&F is underway. Fear not, Peter, the royal "WE" will
not deter or deflect my passions by dangling the "new and improved" before
my eyes. My file folder of "yet to be realized" plans is bulging as is. If
plans for Burgundy are available I MIGHT (with much fear and self loathing)
post for sale a set of unused, still in their tube, (tear and drool stains
carefully removed), plans for Jochems Schooner to help augment whatever PCB
wants for Burgundy plans. Stay tuned.

jeb, rapidly going over the edge, on the crumbling shores of Fundy

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jack&Lois" <jalo@i...> wrote:

>

So if anybody knows

> ANYTHING about this boat beyond pages 57-62 of 30-Odd Boats please

let me

> know, to encourage me or put me out of my misery.
>
> jeb, misty eyed and longing, on the lusty shores of Fundy

Hi Jack,

I know nothing about the design other then what is written in the
book.
Having said that,if I really,really liked that design and wanted
to build her I would :

buy about 20 odd sheets of 11/16 MDO from Ainsworth,5 "kits" of epoxy
and several deals of clear pine and a few of mahogany.
The bottom would be of two layers(MDO side out) while the sides out of
one layer,good side out.The sides,by the way,are just like a Teal or
Surf etc in that the shear of the hull is created by the frame
flare.Scarf the sides.For the visible interior of the hull,I would
ripe 3/8th slices off the clear pine deals(1 1/2" X 12' boards) and
line the interior with a sort of ceiling mounted on 3/4" cleats spaced
every 16" or so.
She would(could) be a "quick" build,especially with plywood and would
stand all sorts of abuse/neglect,unlike a planked version.
The 1270lbs keel would be a bit of a challenge but not impossible to
do given good planning.
I would also use sail track for the sails since the
prescribed "roller" method could be a hand full when the winds are
blowing,could be havoc if it ever comes undone at a mooring in a
gale,and does absolutely nothing for the longevity of the sail by
leaving it exposed to the sun,acid rain and the occassional bit of
bird slug,especially seagull shit !
In short,write to our Hero and see if the plans are available.Do not
settle for the arguement that "we" have an improved design.Burgundy is
lovely with a draft no worse then a Tanzer 22 et al but with looks to
drool over.Lots of good potential storage space too for crates worth
of Burgundy,the juice :-D

Keep us up-dated on how things go!


Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan, always ready to encourage maddness along any shore with
only tears of joy streaming down my face and a glass always at the
ready...........

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Ron Badley <badley@s...> wrote:

>
> >
>
> I have an article regarding Burgundy in "53 Boats You Can Build"

by

> Richard Henderson.
>

Hi Richard,

Thanks for answering my queries. I wonder if that article could be
posted somewhere so it could be shared? Or pertinent comments that
might be of help to our poor obsessed comrade?.

It will be interesting to find out how Mr. Bolger might respond to
Jeb's enquiries; especaily regarding his current thinking on some of
his older designs?

For example he mentions about Black Skimmer- in BWAOM - how many
people love the original design, but it lead to him to updating it
to Martha Jane. And Jesse Cooper lead him to upgrade it's design to
the AS29.

A 28 footer where you have to sit on the bottom in the cabin for
example and the 30 foot mast - makes me wonder how practical and
easy that is to handle compared to his newer designs. Also it would
require at least 4 feet of depth in order to launch.

I think Bolger leads all designers with his tabernacled masts and
ease of launching off a trailer for example.

So it uses one sculling oar as auxilary propulsion? How realistic is
that in the large tidal currents in The Bay Of Fundy?

Certainly the cross-planked bottom would be better replaced with
plywood. Then there is the lead keel - 1270 pounds worth - to be
foundered and attached - probabley with some fairly long keelbolts?

As beautiful as the boat is, it seems rather daunting to a person
like me who is entralled by the simplicity and straightforward
approach of the later designs with numbered keyed plans and simple
plywood shapes.

Nels

>

I have an article regarding Burgundy in "53 Boats You Can Build" by
Richard Henderson.

> 1. What are the dimensions, displacement and draft?

28' x 6'3" x 3'8"draft. 3500 pounds displacement.

>
> 2. How tall is the mainmast and how is it stepped?

Main mast is 30' even. Mizzen 21'3". Both are freestanding.

>
> 3. Sitting headroom in the cuddy?

Yes, as long as you sit on the floor.

>
> 4. What kind of auxiliary power would you use?

Skull.

>
> 5. How much lead in the keel?

1270 pounds.

>
> 6. What construction method would you use?

In the book it's plank on frame. ..sort of. According to the plans,
you plank up the sides on the flat and bend them around 3 molds. The
bottom is cross planked. It would be very easy to convert to plywood.

>
> Is there a table of offsets in the book?

There is plenty of info in the book to build the boat including the
masts.

RonB.

>
> Nels

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jack&Lois" <jalo@i...> wrote:

>It's called a
> "Speculative Design" in the book. Does anyone know if this design

was ever

> completed and/or became a boat? I'd hate to learn that it was a

wipe out,

> but if it was I should be told sooner than later. I'm literally

loosing

> sleep over this design. I've got it bad. I'm currently writing a

letter to

> PCB&Friends (fax isn't worth the trouble with our backwoods dial-

up)

> including questions about Burgundy along with some other

inquiries, but

> delayed gratification is not one of my strong suites.

Hi Jeb,

Don't have my copy of TOB handy. From what I recall it
was "speculative" in it's day as it is one of his earlier sharpie
designs but included a deep fin keel, which was rather advanced
thinking at the time. Now it looks to be right up there with current
racing designs as far as the hull is concerned. It is one of those
designs that I would love to see sailing as it would be really fast,
but would not want to try to build nor pay marina fees for. So if
you build her, I will come down there to see it. Shoot some footage
from my Long Micro;-)

Perhaps you could refresh my memory with a few details like:

1. What are the dimensions, displacement and draft?

2. How tall is the mainmast and how is it stepped?

3. Sitting headroom in the cuddy?

4. What kind of auxiliary power would you use?

5. How much lead in the keel?

6. What construction method would you use?

Is there a table of offsets in the book?

Nels

Burgundy is such an elegant simple boat, that it would be highly
unlikely to have been a failure. I love that design too, my only hang
up is the deeper keel which would make hauling the boat around on a
trailer a pain. The boat looks like a very simple and quick build, go
for it, if you start now you could have that boat in the water by
summer!

On 1/19/06, Jack&Lois <jalo@...> wrote:
> Greetings Bolgerados. After a long stretch of daily lurking I'm re-surfacing
> for inquiry with fear and loathing. After years of poking around dusty
> backrooms, bins and boxes in second hand book stores I've finally acquired
> my own copy of 30-Odd Boats. Alas, none of the used book stores panned out,
> but my dear mother-in-law gave me a Chapters gift card for Christmas. I
> found one through their used book section for almost exactly the value of my
> gift card. Cosmic or what?! Subsequently I've become obsessed with Burgundy
> (the boat, not the wine, though the wine's pretty nice too). It's called a
> "Speculative Design" in the book. Does anyone know if this design was ever
> completed and/or became a boat? I'd hate to learn that it was a wipe out,
> but if it was I should be told sooner than later. I'm literally loosing
> sleep over this design. I've got it bad. I'm currently writing a letter to
> PCB&Friends (fax isn't worth the trouble with our backwoods dial-up)
> including questions about Burgundy along with some other inquiries, but
> delayed gratification is not one of my strong suites. So if anybody knows
> ANYTHING about this boat beyond pages 57-62 of 30-Odd Boats please let me
> know, to encourage me or put me out of my misery.
>
> jeb, misty eyed and longing, on the lusty shores of Fundy
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Greetings Bolgerados. After a long stretch of daily lurking I'm re-surfacing
for inquiry with fear and loathing. After years of poking around dusty
backrooms, bins and boxes in second hand book stores I've finally acquired
my own copy of 30-Odd Boats. Alas, none of the used book stores panned out,
but my dear mother-in-law gave me a Chapters gift card for Christmas. I
found one through their used book section for almost exactly the value of my
gift card. Cosmic or what?! Subsequently I've become obsessed with Burgundy
(the boat, not the wine, though the wine's pretty nice too). It's called a
"Speculative Design" in the book. Does anyone know if this design was ever
completed and/or became a boat? I'd hate to learn that it was a wipe out,
but if it was I should be told sooner than later. I'm literally loosing
sleep over this design. I've got it bad. I'm currently writing a letter to
PCB&Friends (fax isn't worth the trouble with our backwoods dial-up)
including questions about Burgundy along with some other inquiries, but
delayed gratification is not one of my strong suites. So if anybody knows
ANYTHING about this boat beyond pages 57-62 of 30-Odd Boats please let me
know, to encourage me or put me out of my misery.

jeb, misty eyed and longing, on the lusty shores of Fundy