Re: micro or long micro

> Beware of all the assurances that a Long Micro will hardly cost
more than a Micro. Almost everything will cost more. The sails will
cost more, the plywood will cost more, the epoxy will cost more, the
paint will cost more, you will be inclined to purchase a larger motor
which will cost more, any stay in a marina will cost more, if you
have to have the boat launched it will cost more, a trailer will cost
more, if you store the boat it will cost more.
____

I agree with the above; the Long Micro will cost more and be more
work. But is the extra worth it? Bolger himself has said that they
feel the LM offers better return on the dollar and work hour. Aside
from the extra internal volume, the extra length will make LM much faster.

One quibble about the above. I'll bet in most cases the motor does not
cost more. The smallest OB with F/N/R gears is usually a 4/5 hp which
is more than enough for either boat.

Peter
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Paul Thober <paulthober@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi Wayne.
>
> Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising
sailboat for 90% of the population.

Chuck Merrell says something very similar:

http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/

Suesanne Altenburger does not totally agree:

"The navigator conversion was designed for a fellow that wanted to
singlehandedly circimnavigate the australian continent, not the
earth....this is where the lecture begain. She carried on about
legal issues designing a boat and made sure i wasn't up to anything
too stupid.......very libertarian of her. She said it is a great
boat for shorter jaunts......specifically nova scotia and the
caribbean, but not the atlantic. She said what limits the micro the
most for larger crossings is the hull speed is so low you expose
yourself more. If i was interested in a bigger trip i should
consider a LM navigator and said the conversion would be easy enough
to do and they could do the drawings but no one had asked."

Actually I had askd but was told they were too busy.

Nels
On 1/31/06, Paul Thober <paulthober@...> wrote:
> Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising sailboat for 90% of the population.

I think that quote comes from Bernie Wolfard's catalogue.

> I think you will find that the Micro has plenty of room particularly if you plan to cruise single-handed.

I agree.


And, as you are on a budget. Consider buying your Micro.
Used ones are often cheaper than building new, and certainly
cheaper if you value your time at minimum wage or above.
Hi Wayne.

Mr. Bolger said somewhere that Micro is a sufficient cruising sailboat for 90% of the population.

Beware of all the assurances that a Long Micro will hardly cost more than a Micro. Almost everything will cost more. The sails will cost more, the plywood will cost more, the epoxy will cost more, the paint will cost more, you will be inclined to purchase a larger motor which will cost more, any stay in a marina will cost more, if you have to have the boat launched it will cost more, a trailer will cost more, if you store the boat it will cost more.

I think you will find that the Micro has plenty of room particularly if you plan to cruise single-handed. Storage is no issue. When cruising on the east coast you are usually no more that a couple of days from a typical American super market.

A few years ago I built a Chebacco and spent most of a year sailing her on the east coast. If you have any questions about my experiences I would be happy to share them with you.

Best of luck

Paul Thober

wyliewesty <wyliewesty@...> wrote: I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
better.
Wayne





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nels,
Can do, but it will take me a day to get my records (they are home- I
am not) and tabulate them.
Bill

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@h...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Wayne,
> > If you like, I can tabulate all the materials I have used in my LM
> thus
> > far. I can total the costs too but your results may differ
> depending upon
> > what materials you choose (and I have not purchased any of my
> rigging or
> > sails). Let me know, and keep us posted on what you decide.
> Building an
> > LM is a true joy and hopefully you decide to build.
> >
> > Bill, in Ohio.
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I would be interested in that tabulation as well. Then when I get a
> sail quote we can add that in. Sailrite might also give a price
> estimate for the hardware and ropes as well.
>
> Also what basic tools you recommend.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nels
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@w...> wrote:
I've faced this numerous
> times building my Micro, where the wood just didn't quite want to
follow the
> curve the plans call for because I'm beefing up certain elements
beyond the
> original scantlings. If you factor that in, you may nearly break
even on LM,
> all other things being equal!
>
> Paul L.

PCB&F now recommend beefing up the scantlings if one plans on taking
longer trips, like to the Bahamas, or up to Nova Scotia. So you could
be right about that. Also they recommend the Navigator conversion
which is a lot more work!

Then it would depend on the level of finish you want. There is a
considerable amount more sanding and painting on a Long Micro. It is
after all - about 30% bigger altogether.

Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, William King <kingw@b...> wrote:
>
> Wayne,
> If you like, I can tabulate all the materials I have used in my LM
thus
> far. I can total the costs too but your results may differ
depending upon
> what materials you choose (and I have not purchased any of my
rigging or
> sails). Let me know, and keep us posted on what you decide.
Building an
> LM is a true joy and hopefully you decide to build.
>
> Bill, in Ohio.

Hi Bill,

I would be interested in that tabulation as well. Then when I get a
sail quote we can add that in. Sailrite might also give a price
estimate for the hardware and ropes as well.

Also what basic tools you recommend.

Thanks,

Nels
On 1/30/06, Paul Lefebvre <paul@...> wrote
> building a longer boat is often far easier (therefore may take less time?)
> than building a shorter boat, simply because the curves you're bending wood

True, but probably not for the Micro versus the Long Micro. Both of
them have easy
bends for the specified plywood.

In my experience, more important than the size of the bare hull is the
complexity of the finish work. Finishing the bare hull can take 2X,
3X, (and much more!) than building the bare hull.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Balogh <mark@b...> wrote:
>
> It has been mentioned that the difference in cost between a Micro
or Micro
> Navigator and a long Micro is just the wood and epoxy. Before one
makes a
> final decision the cost of building bigger spars and getting much
larger
> sails should be considered.
>
> Mark

I e-mailed a price request to Sailrite just as a matter of
comparison - for both Micro and Long Micro sailplan. Micro is
considered a bit under canvassed in light winds and Long Micro has
lots, so that one is pulling in the first reef much earlier. It has
over 100 square feet more sail area. As mark mentions this also adds
to the cost for spars and other rigging.

Long Micro also requires a larger motor if one is serious about
going any distance, but sometimes the larger motors are cheaper than
small ones if one shops around. Lot's of 9.9's around.

Another factor is that one may need a larger trailer to tow safely
and it may require brakes on it. Micro can be towed with a 4
cylinder but I would want a 6 for the LM if going any distance.

This all adds up and it is advisable to take a good look at the
total cost factor. Better to have a Micro you can use than a Long
Micro that never sees the water as it eats up all the funds.

Nels
I realize you're talking about money, no building time; but time is money,
and Buehler makes good arguments that I'm sure most would agree with, that
building a longer boat is often far easier (therefore may take less time?)
than building a shorter boat, simply because the curves you're bending wood
to are gentler due to being stretched out longer. I've faced this numerous
times building my Micro, where the wood just didn't quite want to follow the
curve the plans call for because I'm beefing up certain elements beyond the
original scantlings. If you factor that in, you may nearly break even on LM,
all other things being equal!

Paul L.

-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
wyliewesty
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2006 2:53 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] micro or long micro


I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
better.
Wayne





Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
It has been mentioned that the difference in cost between a Micro or Micro
Navigator and a long Micro is just the wood and epoxy. Before one makes a
final decision the cost of building bigger spars and getting much larger
sails should be considered.

Mark
Wayne,
I am currently building a Long Micro, and as you can guess, I agree with
Peter. You should build
an LM. Larger, more comfortable, and faster sailing. May I suggest two
things to keep in mind
while you consider building?

First, do not underestimate the amount of time and energy it takes to
complete an LM. Dan Gonneau
estimates it took him 800 hours. I'm currently at hour 500, and I should
be done by hour 600, but
I've also been building over 2 years (2 years and 4 mos., to be exact). I
have kept very careful track of my time and my 500 hours include straight,
hard working time, not thinking-time, errand-time, or
sitting-in-the-moaning-chair time. I had initially hoped (quietly) that I
would be done in about 14 or 15 months, but no more than 2 years. Life has
a way of tossing all sorts of interesting new adventures in the way of our
well-laid boat building plans. I'm not complaining. I enjoy working on my
boat, and if it takes me 3 or 4 years, those will be enjoyable years
too. I merely mention this because you state that you plans are for the
near future.

Second, the cost differences between an LM and Micro can be easily
compensated for by using different materials. You can spend more money
building a very nice Micro than you can building an "OK" LM. For example,
if you want to save money on an LM, use 3/8 inch fir plywood and sheath
only the bottom (up to the waterline) in fiberglass. Coat the rest of the
boat in epoxy (or don't) and paint. Some people on this list (group?)
swear by latex house paint, which is far cheaper than marine-type
paint. The issue of CDX ply versus marine fir ply versus okume (sp?)
versus MDO comes up at least two times per year here. Everyone has an
opinion. Sail? You can save money by either stitching your own sail, or
using polytarp (not really my first choice for coastal cruising mind you,
but...). Every choice results in costs or savings.

If you like, I can tabulate all the materials I have used in my LM thus
far. I can total the costs too but your results may differ depending upon
what materials you choose (and I have not purchased any of my rigging or
sails). Let me know, and keep us posted on what you decide. Building an
LM is a true joy and hopefully you decide to build.

Bill, in Ohio.


> I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
>Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
>needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
>of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
>boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
>year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
>better.
> Wayne
Peter, you have explaned it to me better than anyone else.
Thanks,
Wayne

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@h...>
wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wyliewesty" <wyliewesty@y...>
wrote:
> >
> > I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between
a
> > Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or
> cost
> > needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra
cost
> > of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting
this
> > boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will
spend
> a
> > year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be
better
> > better.
> > Wayne
> >
>
> Not too sure of the actual real extra costs but if you are
seriously
> planning on a year long cruise up or down the east coast,bite the
> bullet and build the Long Micro.In the greater scheme of
things,the
> extra few sheets of plywood and the extra gallon or two of epoxy
ain't
> gonna amount to more then a hill of beans but the extra storage
> capacity of the Long Micro will pay big dividends when you take on
> provisions.........
>
> Keep us posted on your adventure and good luck!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Peter Lenihan
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "wyliewesty" <wyliewesty@y...> wrote:
>
> I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
> Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or
cost
> needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
> of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
> boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend
a
> year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
> better.
> Wayne
>

Not too sure of the actual real extra costs but if you are seriously
planning on a year long cruise up or down the east coast,bite the
bullet and build the Long Micro.In the greater scheme of things,the
extra few sheets of plywood and the extra gallon or two of epoxy ain't
gonna amount to more then a hill of beans but the extra storage
capacity of the Long Micro will pay big dividends when you take on
provisions.........

Keep us posted on your adventure and good luck!

Sincerely,

Peter Lenihan
I am intrested in building a Micro but cannot decide between a
Long Micro or a Micro. Can anyone tell me the extra materials or cost
needed to build the bigger boat. I am on a budget and the extra cost
of the larger boat will problly be a deal breaker. I am wanting this
boat for a trip I plan to make in the near future where i will spend a
year traveling the east coast so the larger the boat would be better
better.
Wayne