Re: Flat Mizzen Sails
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
amidships and lower the main, the boat will lie more or less head to
wind and
drift backwards slowly--useful if you need to take a break or figure
out what to
do next.
I recall many moons ago that PCB gave some advice on how best to rig a
stormsail/trisail (?) for a Chebacco so that it would hold position
when hove to. Anyone recall that post?
(Seems to me it was rigged like a small jib from the mizzen mast with
the tack attached to a cleat near the companionway or something like
that.)
Nels
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>If you sheet the mizzen
amidships and lower the main, the boat will lie more or less head to
wind and
drift backwards slowly--useful if you need to take a break or figure
out what to
do next.
I recall many moons ago that PCB gave some advice on how best to rig a
stormsail/trisail (?) for a Chebacco so that it would hold position
when hove to. Anyone recall that post?
(Seems to me it was rigged like a small jib from the mizzen mast with
the tack attached to a cleat near the companionway or something like
that.)
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
Not to mention that a leg o' muttom sail is essentially a loose-footed
sail.
Nels
>sail.
> I wonder if the fat mast palyed some of he role of a belly in the
>Also there no stays on the mast allowing it to bend a bit.
> Patrick
Not to mention that a leg o' muttom sail is essentially a loose-footed
sail.
Nels
I wonder if the fat mast palyed some of he role of a belly in the sail.
Patrick
Doug Pollard wrote:
Patrick
Doug Pollard wrote:
> Sorry! Where I meant to go, and say is, there are other
>reasons for a mizzen other that pulling to windward although a flat cut
>sail pulls to windward quite well. Chesapeake bay Skipjacks and almost
>all other work boats in this area had their sails cut flat. They did
>pretty well sailing to windward and some of the old timers said that
>modern sail makers curved the luff to increase drive but these guys
>claimed they could see no difference. I know that's hard to believe
>but that was their claim.
>
> Doug
>
>
>Doug Pollard wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>My boat Wolftrap , a cat yawl with sprit sails, the main was huge with
>>the idea that I would reef early and still have the ability to sail well
>>in light air without such things a drifters and the like. With full main
>>the the mizzen was not useful hardly at all. When reefed it it made all
>>the difference where balance was concerned. But and a big but it is,
>>with that huge main if you got caught in a really strong gust of wind
>>with full main up she would turn and run downwind out of control. On
>>the other hand with Mizzen set she would head up to wind and luff while
>>I reefed. So, in this case the mizzen was a huge safety factor.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>
>>eheins@...wrote:
>>
>>
>>>It's absolutely typical as well as im[eritive. I guess what we have to
>>>unlearn, is that the cat yawl rig such as the jukebox or in my
>>>
>>>
>>case, the
>>
>>
>>>Chebacco, differs greatly from the type of rigs we have learned to sail
>>>with. With the typical sloop / cutter /ketch combinations that are
>>>
>>>
>>common
>>
>>
>>>today, all sails tend to deliver driving force in one way or
>>>
>>>
>>another. the
>>
>>
>>>concept is quite different in the cat yawls. In these, all (or a GREAT
>>>majority) of the driving force comes from the mainsl which needs both to
>>>be cut and usually handled in a more powerful state than we are used to
>>>with relatively small and flatish main / genoa comibinations.
>>>
>>>I find that the gaff main on the Chebacco needs to be allowed to fill.
>>>Sheeting in tight no advantage in most cases and is usually detrimental.
>>>On the other hand the mizzen acts only as a steadying or balancing sail.
>>>I some conditions the mizzen appears to have little effect at all. In
>>>others, it tends to relieve weather helm and allow the small rudder
>>>
>>>
>>on the
>>
>>
>>>Chebacco to work. It effectively moves the center of pressure aft
>>>
>>>
>>in the
>>
>>
>>>boat since the main is stepped so far forward.
>>>
>>>If the mizzen is cut with any significant camber, it tends to overpower
>>>the aft of the boat and creates a lee helm in the worst instances I
>>>
>>>
>>find.
>>
>>
>>>the crux of the matter is. Yes cut the mizzen dead flat.
>>>
>>>Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
>>>>Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
>>>>mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
>>>>the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
>>>>typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
>>>>which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>Ron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Bolger rules!!!
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>>>>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
>>>>
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>>posts
>>
>>
>>>>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>>>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Fax:
>>>
>>>
>>>>(978) 282-1349
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>>>
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>>>dead horses
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>>>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>>Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+safety&w1=Boating+safety&w2=Alaska+outdoors&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=r49p2sdeaMdE-HKp6VsBvQ
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>>
>>Bolger rules!!!
>>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
>>dead horses
>>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
>>Fax: (978) 282-1349
>>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
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>> Alaska outdoors
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>> Boating safety
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>>
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>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
Thats 52ft luff length.
Doug
Doug Pollard wrote:
Doug
Doug Pollard wrote:
> When building Wolftrap, Bolger cautioned me against
> letting the sail make put to much curve or (roach maybe is the word) in
> the luff of the sail. It was 52 ft. and it had,I believe about 6 inches
> of curve to it, to make the sail full. I had to argue with the sail
> maker to get him to make it that way. Bolger asked me if I had a
> problem getting it made so flat. When I told him I had an argument with
> my sail maker, who is a good friend, he laughed and said that modern
> sail makers never make sprite sails flat enough. He thought the set of
> mine was about right from the pictures I sent him. But he fussed that I
> was still sheeting in to tight going to windward and was in part wasting
> the bottom 1/3 of my main. I took me a long time to learn to sail with
> the boom far enough off to get the whole sail to pull.
>
> Doug
>
>
> ghartc wrote:
> > It won't remain flat no matter how you cut it, so it'll drive -
> > especially with Dacron. (Can you pull a chain "flat" horizontally?)
> >
> > But, don't cut it flat, it'll be a rotten sail (unless you are using
> > a tarp or super soft/light dacron, etc.) A "flat" sail is maybe 4-5%
> > camber. I don't know how the Jukebox performs, but you will probably
> > want a pretty fat main, both drafts around 45-50% aft.
> >
> > Gregg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "s4a9m8" <sammi13@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> > > Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> > > mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
> > > the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> > > typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
> > > which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
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> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alaska+outdoors&w1=Alaska+outdoors&w2=Boating+safety&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=9JLC1DQwyJr8PwzaITIwkw
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alaska+outdoors&w1=Alaska+outdoors&w2=Boating+safety&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=9JLC1DQwyJr8PwzaITIwkw>>
>
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> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+safety&w1=Alaska+outdoors&w2=Boating+safety&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=-tVh09ZMNI6Vo3wQh1i4BA
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>
> > Boating magazine
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Boating+magazine&w1=Alaska+outdoors&w2=Boating+safety&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=sF1tb0hVX-uiV3Ag-BIQlg
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>
> >
> > Great outdoors
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Great+outdoors&w1=Alaska+outdoors&w2=Boating+safety&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=9JTGiesOZ6gmlb-83HgTNg
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>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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>
When building Wolftrap, Bolger cautioned me against
letting the sail make put to much curve or (roach maybe is the word) in
the luff of the sail. It was 52 ft. and it had,I believe about 6 inches
of curve to it, to make the sail full. I had to argue with the sail
maker to get him to make it that way. Bolger asked me if I had a
problem getting it made so flat. When I told him I had an argument with
my sail maker, who is a good friend, he laughed and said that modern
sail makers never make sprite sails flat enough. He thought the set of
mine was about right from the pictures I sent him. But he fussed that I
was still sheeting in to tight going to windward and was in part wasting
the bottom 1/3 of my main. I took me a long time to learn to sail with
the boom far enough off to get the whole sail to pull.
Doug
ghartc wrote:
letting the sail make put to much curve or (roach maybe is the word) in
the luff of the sail. It was 52 ft. and it had,I believe about 6 inches
of curve to it, to make the sail full. I had to argue with the sail
maker to get him to make it that way. Bolger asked me if I had a
problem getting it made so flat. When I told him I had an argument with
my sail maker, who is a good friend, he laughed and said that modern
sail makers never make sprite sails flat enough. He thought the set of
mine was about right from the pictures I sent him. But he fussed that I
was still sheeting in to tight going to windward and was in part wasting
the bottom 1/3 of my main. I took me a long time to learn to sail with
the boom far enough off to get the whole sail to pull.
Doug
ghartc wrote:
> It won't remain flat no matter how you cut it, so it'll drive -
> especially with Dacron. (Can you pull a chain "flat" horizontally?)
>
> But, don't cut it flat, it'll be a rotten sail (unless you are using
> a tarp or super soft/light dacron, etc.) A "flat" sail is maybe 4-5%
> camber. I don't know how the Jukebox performs, but you will probably
> want a pretty fat main, both drafts around 45-50% aft.
>
> Gregg
>
>
>
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "s4a9m8" <sammi13@...> wrote:
> >
> > Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> > Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> > mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
> > the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> > typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
> > which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ron
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Alaska outdoors
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Alaska+outdoors&w1=Alaska+outdoors&w2=Boating+safety&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=9JLC1DQwyJr8PwzaITIwkw>
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It won't remain flat no matter how you cut it, so it'll drive -
especially with Dacron. (Can you pull a chain "flat" horizontally?)
But, don't cut it flat, it'll be a rotten sail (unless you are using
a tarp or super soft/light dacron, etc.) A "flat" sail is maybe 4-5%
camber. I don't know how the Jukebox performs, but you will probably
want a pretty fat main, both drafts around 45-50% aft.
Gregg
especially with Dacron. (Can you pull a chain "flat" horizontally?)
But, don't cut it flat, it'll be a rotten sail (unless you are using
a tarp or super soft/light dacron, etc.) A "flat" sail is maybe 4-5%
camber. I don't know how the Jukebox performs, but you will probably
want a pretty fat main, both drafts around 45-50% aft.
Gregg
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "s4a9m8" <sammi13@...> wrote:
>
> Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
> the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
> which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron
>
Hi
Another Chebacco sailor here. Yes, you want a flat cut mizzen fro a
couple of reasons. As you move aft on a boat, each sail has to be
sheeted in a little more, so the aftermost sails are cut flatter than
the forward sails. And has been pointed out, a flat sail will heave
to better -- it's also worth noting that the mizzen doesn't reef, so
the flat cut will let it stand longer.
But it will help drive the boat anyway. It takes effort to tighten
the snotter enough to get the sail really flat in use. Normally it
will assume some shape whether you want it to or not. As the wind
gets up, you'll find yourself hauling on the snotter to flatten it
some more.
Jamie Orr
Another Chebacco sailor here. Yes, you want a flat cut mizzen fro a
couple of reasons. As you move aft on a boat, each sail has to be
sheeted in a little more, so the aftermost sails are cut flatter than
the forward sails. And has been pointed out, a flat sail will heave
to better -- it's also worth noting that the mizzen doesn't reef, so
the flat cut will let it stand longer.
But it will help drive the boat anyway. It takes effort to tighten
the snotter enough to get the sail really flat in use. Normally it
will assume some shape whether you want it to or not. As the wind
gets up, you'll find yourself hauling on the snotter to flatten it
some more.
Jamie Orr
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "s4a9m8" <sammi13@...> wrote:
>
> Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call
for
> the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a
sail
> which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron
>
Sorry! Where I meant to go, and say is, there are other
reasons for a mizzen other that pulling to windward although a flat cut
sail pulls to windward quite well. Chesapeake bay Skipjacks and almost
all other work boats in this area had their sails cut flat. They did
pretty well sailing to windward and some of the old timers said that
modern sail makers curved the luff to increase drive but these guys
claimed they could see no difference. I know that's hard to believe
but that was their claim.
Doug
Doug Pollard wrote:
reasons for a mizzen other that pulling to windward although a flat cut
sail pulls to windward quite well. Chesapeake bay Skipjacks and almost
all other work boats in this area had their sails cut flat. They did
pretty well sailing to windward and some of the old timers said that
modern sail makers curved the luff to increase drive but these guys
claimed they could see no difference. I know that's hard to believe
but that was their claim.
Doug
Doug Pollard wrote:
> My boat Wolftrap , a cat yawl with sprit sails, the main was huge with
> the idea that I would reef early and still have the ability to sail well
> in light air without such things a drifters and the like. With full main
> the the mizzen was not useful hardly at all. When reefed it it made all
> the difference where balance was concerned. But and a big but it is,
> with that huge main if you got caught in a really strong gust of wind
> with full main up she would turn and run downwind out of control. On
> the other hand with Mizzen set she would head up to wind and luff while
> I reefed. So, in this case the mizzen was a huge safety factor.
>
> Doug
>
>
>eheins@...wrote:
> > It's absolutely typical as well as im[eritive. I guess what we have to
> > unlearn, is that the cat yawl rig such as the jukebox or in my
> case, the
> > Chebacco, differs greatly from the type of rigs we have learned to sail
> > with. With the typical sloop / cutter /ketch combinations that are
> common
> > today, all sails tend to deliver driving force in one way or
> another. the
> > concept is quite different in the cat yawls. In these, all (or a GREAT
> > majority) of the driving force comes from the mainsl which needs both to
> > be cut and usually handled in a more powerful state than we are used to
> > with relatively small and flatish main / genoa comibinations.
> >
> > I find that the gaff main on the Chebacco needs to be allowed to fill.
> > Sheeting in tight no advantage in most cases and is usually detrimental.
> > On the other hand the mizzen acts only as a steadying or balancing sail.
> > I some conditions the mizzen appears to have little effect at all. In
> > others, it tends to relieve weather helm and allow the small rudder
> on the
> > Chebacco to work. It effectively moves the center of pressure aft
> in the
> > boat since the main is stepped so far forward.
> >
> > If the mizzen is cut with any significant camber, it tends to overpower
> > the aft of the boat and creates a lee helm in the worst instances I
> find.
> > the crux of the matter is. Yes cut the mizzen dead flat.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> >
> > > Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> > > Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> > > mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
> > > the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> > > typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
> > > which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bolger rules!!!
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> dead
> > > horses
> > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
> posts
> > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax:
> > > (978) 282-1349
> > > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> > Bolger rules!!!
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> > dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> > Fax: (978) 282-1349
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> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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My boat Wolftrap , a cat yawl with sprit sails, the main was huge with
the idea that I would reef early and still have the ability to sail well
in light air without such things a drifters and the like. With full main
the the mizzen was not useful hardly at all. When reefed it it made all
the difference where balance was concerned. But and a big but it is,
with that huge main if you got caught in a really strong gust of wind
with full main up she would turn and run downwind out of control. On
the other hand with Mizzen set she would head up to wind and luff while
I reefed. So, in this case the mizzen was a huge safety factor.
Doug
eheins@...wrote:
the idea that I would reef early and still have the ability to sail well
in light air without such things a drifters and the like. With full main
the the mizzen was not useful hardly at all. When reefed it it made all
the difference where balance was concerned. But and a big but it is,
with that huge main if you got caught in a really strong gust of wind
with full main up she would turn and run downwind out of control. On
the other hand with Mizzen set she would head up to wind and luff while
I reefed. So, in this case the mizzen was a huge safety factor.
Doug
eheins@...wrote:
> It's absolutely typical as well as im[eritive. I guess what we have to
> unlearn, is that the cat yawl rig such as the jukebox or in my case, the
> Chebacco, differs greatly from the type of rigs we have learned to sail
> with. With the typical sloop / cutter /ketch combinations that are common
> today, all sails tend to deliver driving force in one way or another. the
> concept is quite different in the cat yawls. In these, all (or a GREAT
> majority) of the driving force comes from the mainsl which needs both to
> be cut and usually handled in a more powerful state than we are used to
> with relatively small and flatish main / genoa comibinations.
>
> I find that the gaff main on the Chebacco needs to be allowed to fill.
> Sheeting in tight no advantage in most cases and is usually detrimental.
> On the other hand the mizzen acts only as a steadying or balancing sail.
> I some conditions the mizzen appears to have little effect at all. In
> others, it tends to relieve weather helm and allow the small rudder on the
> Chebacco to work. It effectively moves the center of pressure aft in the
> boat since the main is stepped so far forward.
>
> If the mizzen is cut with any significant camber, it tends to overpower
> the aft of the boat and creates a lee helm in the worst instances I find.
> the crux of the matter is. Yes cut the mizzen dead flat.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> > Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> > Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> > mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
> > the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> > typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
> > which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> > horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax:
> > (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Great+outdoors&w1=Boating+safety&w2=Alaska+outdoors&w3=Boating+magazine&w4=Great+outdoors&c=4&s=83&.sig=9lzoUcWE8Vy43nP6bzMgMQ>
>
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Ron,
I recently finished (still sorting out) the Toon 19 shown on Jim's Index Page.
It has a similiar rig.
The purpose of a flat mizzen is for trim. I specified it for Toon 19 because I am too old to hike and I wanted a rig which could be reefed down. I found that when I reefed my previous boats (a Dovekie and a Marsh Hen) that the boats developed a lee helm. This is both unpleasant and dangerous, particularly in the conditions which require reefing. While the center of effort doesn't move forward as much on a balanced lug as it does on a triangular sail, it does move forward some, and developing a lee helm is a possibility.
With a mizzen for trim, it is possible to adjust the mizzen so that you can have as much or as little weather helm as you want. On many points of sail, you can adjust the sails to self steer long enough to check a chart, grab a drink or sandwich, or take a leak. If you are easily entertained, you can adjust sail trim to change course without using the rudder. If you sheet the mizzen amidships and lower the main, the boat will lie more or less head to wind and drift backwards slowly--useful if you need to take a break or figure out what to do next.
The naming of rigs began when it was customary to have yachts with long overhangs and inboard rudders. A ketch had the mizzen mast stepped forward of the rudder and had a large mizzen sail for drive. The modern equivalent of this rig is to be found on Sea Pearls and B and B's Core Sound Boats. A yawl had a much smaller mizzen mounted abaft the rudder and this mizzen (also called a "jigger") was for trim. Today, most sail boats--particularly home built ones--have the rudder hung on the transom, and it is not feasible to mount the mizzen mast behind the rudder, even if the mizzen is small, flat, and intended for trim.
Whatever you call it, it is a very useful, handy, and convenient rig.
John T
I recently finished (still sorting out) the Toon 19 shown on Jim's Index Page.
It has a similiar rig.
The purpose of a flat mizzen is for trim. I specified it for Toon 19 because I am too old to hike and I wanted a rig which could be reefed down. I found that when I reefed my previous boats (a Dovekie and a Marsh Hen) that the boats developed a lee helm. This is both unpleasant and dangerous, particularly in the conditions which require reefing. While the center of effort doesn't move forward as much on a balanced lug as it does on a triangular sail, it does move forward some, and developing a lee helm is a possibility.
With a mizzen for trim, it is possible to adjust the mizzen so that you can have as much or as little weather helm as you want. On many points of sail, you can adjust the sails to self steer long enough to check a chart, grab a drink or sandwich, or take a leak. If you are easily entertained, you can adjust sail trim to change course without using the rudder. If you sheet the mizzen amidships and lower the main, the boat will lie more or less head to wind and drift backwards slowly--useful if you need to take a break or figure out what to do next.
The naming of rigs began when it was customary to have yachts with long overhangs and inboard rudders. A ketch had the mizzen mast stepped forward of the rudder and had a large mizzen sail for drive. The modern equivalent of this rig is to be found on Sea Pearls and B and B's Core Sound Boats. A yawl had a much smaller mizzen mounted abaft the rudder and this mizzen (also called a "jigger") was for trim. Today, most sail boats--particularly home built ones--have the rudder hung on the transom, and it is not feasible to mount the mizzen mast behind the rudder, even if the mizzen is small, flat, and intended for trim.
Whatever you call it, it is a very useful, handy, and convenient rig.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: s4a9m8
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 8:43 AM
Subject: [bolger] Flat Mizzen Sails
Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
Thanks,
Ron
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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It's absolutely typical as well as im[eritive. I guess what we have to
unlearn, is that the cat yawl rig such as the jukebox or in my case, the
Chebacco, differs greatly from the type of rigs we have learned to sail
with. With the typical sloop / cutter /ketch combinations that are common
today, all sails tend to deliver driving force in one way or another. the
concept is quite different in the cat yawls. In these, all (or a GREAT
majority) of the driving force comes from the mainsl which needs both to
be cut and usually handled in a more powerful state than we are used to
with relatively small and flatish main / genoa comibinations.
I find that the gaff main on the Chebacco needs to be allowed to fill.
Sheeting in tight no advantage in most cases and is usually detrimental.
On the other hand the mizzen acts only as a steadying or balancing sail.
I some conditions the mizzen appears to have little effect at all. In
others, it tends to relieve weather helm and allow the small rudder on the
Chebacco to work. It effectively moves the center of pressure aft in the
boat since the main is stepped so far forward.
If the mizzen is cut with any significant camber, it tends to overpower
the aft of the boat and creates a lee helm in the worst instances I find.
the crux of the matter is. Yes cut the mizzen dead flat.
Ed
unlearn, is that the cat yawl rig such as the jukebox or in my case, the
Chebacco, differs greatly from the type of rigs we have learned to sail
with. With the typical sloop / cutter /ketch combinations that are common
today, all sails tend to deliver driving force in one way or another. the
concept is quite different in the cat yawls. In these, all (or a GREAT
majority) of the driving force comes from the mainsl which needs both to
be cut and usually handled in a more powerful state than we are used to
with relatively small and flatish main / genoa comibinations.
I find that the gaff main on the Chebacco needs to be allowed to fill.
Sheeting in tight no advantage in most cases and is usually detrimental.
On the other hand the mizzen acts only as a steadying or balancing sail.
I some conditions the mizzen appears to have little effect at all. In
others, it tends to relieve weather helm and allow the small rudder on the
Chebacco to work. It effectively moves the center of pressure aft in the
boat since the main is stepped so far forward.
If the mizzen is cut with any significant camber, it tends to overpower
the aft of the boat and creates a lee helm in the worst instances I find.
the crux of the matter is. Yes cut the mizzen dead flat.
Ed
> Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
> Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
> mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
> the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
> typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
> which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Today, with the temperature outside a brisk -10F, I'm starting a non
Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
Thanks,
Ron
Bolger boat, a Michalak Jukebox2 which is similar to the AS 19. The
mainsail is a balanced lug and the mizzen a sprit. The plans call for
the mizzen to be cut flat, with no belly to the sail. Is this
typical? I'm having difficulty accepting the thought of making a sail
which doesn't contibute to forward motion.
Thanks,
Ron