Re: Build a slow boat, Faster
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "sfduve2001" <sfduve2001@...> wrote:
http://www.tyvek.com/na/covers/english/othercov.html
Nels
>Here is one contact:
> Matt, could you post the contact info for the Tyvek supplier. I'm
> interested in using it for a sail next month. Thanks.
>
http://www.tyvek.com/na/covers/english/othercov.html
Nels
Matt, could you post the contact info for the Tyvek supplier. I'm
interested in using it for a sail next month. Thanks.
interested in using it for a sail next month. Thanks.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Lawson" <mplawson@...> wrote:
>
> I think an outside chine log is going to be fastest to build.
Much
> more so than the ½ round internal chine. How would you hold them
in
> place while you get screws in and get it glued up? Look at Payson
for
> how-to on external chines. No table saw required, just a circular
saw,
> hand plane, nails, and glue. Real internal chines require precise
> modifications of the forms so the thing will go together. Bolger
has
> thought this stuff through. Use external chines.
>
> Regarding the junket you propose on your website, advice and
cautions.
>
> I'm a former whitewater raft guide, with friends who ran the Bio
Bio
> commercialy in Chile. From photos and stories you should be VERY
> careful of that river. The worst horror story was the guy in his
own
> boat who got the 2" ash oar through his thigh....
>
> With my whitewater history I wanted a do-everything boat and was
> captivated by Bolger's Windsprint because of its lines similar to
> western drift boats (for fly fishing) and Grand Canyon dories (and
> seeing Black Skimmer posts and pics recently, I see lots of echos
in
> the lines). I built it stitch and glue to avoid the lateral
turbulence
> of external chines. I considered internal chines, but the
problems of
> all the extra angles to rip, modifying forms, etc., decided me
against
> it. On this list some time ago there was discussion of using PL
glue
> to slam together a Bolger Windsprint (for study plans, see Payson
> above). I think you could assemble with PL in a couple of days,
> especially if you don't build the daggerboard case. If you use
> exterior grade plywood, you wouldn't even have to paint it.
Because of
> the stretch properties of PL, also discussed on this list earlier,
I
> don't think it would be rigid enough as fillets to give you the
> strength you need there with the 1/2 round internal chines.
>
> In rowing whitewater I've been very pleased with the Windsprint.
It
> also makes a good fly fishing platform anchored in swift water.
> Patrick Crockett had warned me of some gripes so I modified the
sail
> plan to eke out more speed--sprit sail with sprit boom, based on
PB
> comments in 103 Rigs. I am prety happy with the rig, but I think
I
> need to cut a new sail much flatter. (After committing to
polytarp I
> found a site in Philadelphia that sells Tyvek as a printing
material up
> to 12' wide, limitless lengths, with no logo on it.) When it gets
> warmer I'll snap some pics and post them.
>
> Matt Lawson
> Trenton, NJ
>
Ah, Joe, you are much more up on the Bio Bio than me. I quit rowing
after blowing out my back in the early 1980s. I worked for OARS
(http://www.oars.com/--check out those dories!) and her international
sister, Sobek (http://www.mtsobek.com/). Sobek isn't offering Bio Bio
trips any more so you are probably right about the dams. Happens to
the best of them. I would not want to portage a windsprint.
Don't worry about being new. You've joined a big, friendly clan.
--Matthew
after blowing out my back in the early 1980s. I worked for OARS
(http://www.oars.com/--check out those dories!) and her international
sister, Sobek (http://www.mtsobek.com/). Sobek isn't offering Bio Bio
trips any more so you are probably right about the dams. Happens to
the best of them. I would not want to portage a windsprint.
Don't worry about being new. You've joined a big, friendly clan.
--Matthew
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "electricdrjoe" <electrichospital@...>
wrote:
Another design that may be of interest as a downriver drift boat would
be the "Childs Pirate Racer." It is definetly not an instant boat
design but is of the tack and tape variety as described in "Building
The New Instant Boats." Also reviewed in BWAOM where Bolger suggests
that the taped seams may be stronger than internal chines, as there is
not the cutting accuracey required by a beginning woodworker. Also it
gives an easier to clean interior.
The Pirate Racer has several useful features. Large decks fore and aft
with side decks as well so one can hike out when sailing. 6'6" long
open cockpit that could be tented over. 10 foot mast and a yard that
could be built in 3 pieces like a long tent pole. Lots of sail area
and easily removable leeboards when rowing.
It could carry a folding portage cart that would make it feasable to
do some serious river running if the portage trails were wide enough.
Like the Bowron Lakes chain in British Columbia for example. Also to
get around dams or closed locks.
http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/explore/cariboo/trails/bowron.htm
Or:
http://tinyurl.com/4t8qs
Portage cart design:
http://www.snowshoecenter.com/shop/product.cfm?p=838
Compact tow vehicle?
http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/50ccmoped.html
Nels:-)
wrote:
>http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html
> Thank you for the advice. I am new at this forum and do not know
> how to find the Payson reference you site. Is there a link to his
> site?
Another design that may be of interest as a downriver drift boat would
be the "Childs Pirate Racer." It is definetly not an instant boat
design but is of the tack and tape variety as described in "Building
The New Instant Boats." Also reviewed in BWAOM where Bolger suggests
that the taped seams may be stronger than internal chines, as there is
not the cutting accuracey required by a beginning woodworker. Also it
gives an easier to clean interior.
The Pirate Racer has several useful features. Large decks fore and aft
with side decks as well so one can hike out when sailing. 6'6" long
open cockpit that could be tented over. 10 foot mast and a yard that
could be built in 3 pieces like a long tent pole. Lots of sail area
and easily removable leeboards when rowing.
It could carry a folding portage cart that would make it feasable to
do some serious river running if the portage trails were wide enough.
Like the Bowron Lakes chain in British Columbia for example. Also to
get around dams or closed locks.
http://www.bcadventure.com/adventure/explore/cariboo/trails/bowron.htm
Or:
http://tinyurl.com/4t8qs
Portage cart design:
http://www.snowshoecenter.com/shop/product.cfm?p=838
Compact tow vehicle?
http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/50ccmoped.html
Nels:-)
Thank you for the advice. I am new at this forum and do not know
how to find the Payson reference you site. Is there a link to his
site?
I would love to chat with your friends for information on the Bio
Bio. The story I hear is the dams have covered the white water. I
may need a lake boat to paddle 30 miles of it. But quiet water can
be fun too. I suspect their are still sections between dams that
are moving water. I found an image on line that looked like our
Umpqua River in Southern Oregon. It was drop and pool and class I
to class II.
Concerning holding internal chine logs in place, I would propose
attaching to one plank first then continue stitching it together
flush to the edge. The round side would conform to the changing
angle as you approched the ends of the hull I have only built 4 real
boats and never one with a radical design like this. (That does not
count a few radical carboard boats.) One of which I wraped lath in
double layers of cardboard then drywall screwed it to the internal
square chine log. (I should not be confessing this in a boat
building forum, though the 18 foot 20 inch beam cardboard craft may
have been the cheapest boat I ever built. It still won the race even
beating a four man fiberglass Rainer beer bottle, before the
cardboard went totally limp.)
Thanks again for the advice.
Sincerly,
Paddler Joe
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Lawson" <mplawson@...> wrote:
how to find the Payson reference you site. Is there a link to his
site?
I would love to chat with your friends for information on the Bio
Bio. The story I hear is the dams have covered the white water. I
may need a lake boat to paddle 30 miles of it. But quiet water can
be fun too. I suspect their are still sections between dams that
are moving water. I found an image on line that looked like our
Umpqua River in Southern Oregon. It was drop and pool and class I
to class II.
Concerning holding internal chine logs in place, I would propose
attaching to one plank first then continue stitching it together
flush to the edge. The round side would conform to the changing
angle as you approched the ends of the hull I have only built 4 real
boats and never one with a radical design like this. (That does not
count a few radical carboard boats.) One of which I wraped lath in
double layers of cardboard then drywall screwed it to the internal
square chine log. (I should not be confessing this in a boat
building forum, though the 18 foot 20 inch beam cardboard craft may
have been the cheapest boat I ever built. It still won the race even
beating a four man fiberglass Rainer beer bottle, before the
cardboard went totally limp.)
Thanks again for the advice.
Sincerly,
Paddler Joe
-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Lawson" <mplawson@...> wrote:
>Much
> I think an outside chine log is going to be fastest to build.
> more so than the ½ round internal chine. How would you hold themin
> place while you get screws in and get it glued up? Look at Paysonfor
> how-to on external chines. No table saw required, just a circularsaw,
> hand plane, nails, and glue. Real internal chines require precisehas
> modifications of the forms so the thing will go together. Bolger
> thought this stuff through. Use external chines.cautions.
>
> Regarding the junket you propose on your website, advice and
>Bio
> I'm a former whitewater raft guide, with friends who ran the Bio
> commercialy in Chile. From photos and stories you should be VERYown
> careful of that river. The worst horror story was the guy in his
> boat who got the 2" ash oar through his thigh....in
>
> With my whitewater history I wanted a do-everything boat and was
> captivated by Bolger's Windsprint because of its lines similar to
> western drift boats (for fly fishing) and Grand Canyon dories (and
> seeing Black Skimmer posts and pics recently, I see lots of echos
> the lines). I built it stitch and glue to avoid the lateralturbulence
> of external chines. I considered internal chines, but theproblems of
> all the extra angles to rip, modifying forms, etc., decided meagainst
> it. On this list some time ago there was discussion of using PLglue
> to slam together a Bolger Windsprint (for study plans, see PaysonBecause of
> above). I think you could assemble with PL in a couple of days,
> especially if you don't build the daggerboard case. If you use
> exterior grade plywood, you wouldn't even have to paint it.
> the stretch properties of PL, also discussed on this list earlier,I
> don't think it would be rigid enough as fillets to give you theIt
> strength you need there with the 1/2 round internal chines.
>
> In rowing whitewater I've been very pleased with the Windsprint.
> also makes a good fly fishing platform anchored in swift water.sail
> Patrick Crockett had warned me of some gripes so I modified the
> plan to eke out more speed--sprit sail with sprit boom, based onPB
> comments in 103 Rigs. I am prety happy with the rig, but I thinkI
> need to cut a new sail much flatter. (After committing topolytarp I
> found a site in Philadelphia that sells Tyvek as a printingmaterial up
> to 12' wide, limitless lengths, with no logo on it.) When it gets
> warmer I'll snap some pics and post them.
>
> Matt Lawson
> Trenton, NJ
>
My only expereance swamping a boat was in a McKenze River drift boat on
the McKenze River outside Springfield Or.. We ran into a barly exposed
under water snag. The external chine was a 1X2 and it cought with the
boat sidways to the current. The up stream chine cought the water
trying to go under the boat and pulled the side under. Saved 2 fish
LOL. If the boat was to be on a lake that wouldn't happen.
Jon
the McKenze River outside Springfield Or.. We ran into a barly exposed
under water snag. The external chine was a 1X2 and it cought with the
boat sidways to the current. The up stream chine cought the water
trying to go under the boat and pulled the side under. Saved 2 fish
LOL. If the boat was to be on a lake that wouldn't happen.
Jon
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Lawson" <mplawson@...> wrote:
>
> I think an outside chine log is going to be fastest to build. Much
> more so than the ½ round internal chine. How would you hold them in
> place while you get screws in and get it glued up? Look at Payson
for
> how-to on external chines. No table saw required, just a circular
saw,
> hand plane, nails, and glue. Real internal chines require precise
> modifications of the forms so the thing will go together. Bolger has
> thought this stuff through. Use external chines.
I think an outside chine log is going to be fastest to build. Much
more so than the ½ round internal chine. How would you hold them in
place while you get screws in and get it glued up? Look at Payson for
how-to on external chines. No table saw required, just a circular saw,
hand plane, nails, and glue. Real internal chines require precise
modifications of the forms so the thing will go together. Bolger has
thought this stuff through. Use external chines.
Regarding the junket you propose on your website, advice and cautions.
I'm a former whitewater raft guide, with friends who ran the Bio Bio
commercialy in Chile. From photos and stories you should be VERY
careful of that river. The worst horror story was the guy in his own
boat who got the 2" ash oar through his thigh....
With my whitewater history I wanted a do-everything boat and was
captivated by Bolger's Windsprint because of its lines similar to
western drift boats (for fly fishing) and Grand Canyon dories (and
seeing Black Skimmer posts and pics recently, I see lots of echos in
the lines). I built it stitch and glue to avoid the lateral turbulence
of external chines. I considered internal chines, but the problems of
all the extra angles to rip, modifying forms, etc., decided me against
it. On this list some time ago there was discussion of using PL glue
to slam together a Bolger Windsprint (for study plans, see Payson
above). I think you could assemble with PL in a couple of days,
especially if you don't build the daggerboard case. If you use
exterior grade plywood, you wouldn't even have to paint it. Because of
the stretch properties of PL, also discussed on this list earlier, I
don't think it would be rigid enough as fillets to give you the
strength you need there with the 1/2 round internal chines.
In rowing whitewater I've been very pleased with the Windsprint. It
also makes a good fly fishing platform anchored in swift water.
Patrick Crockett had warned me of some gripes so I modified the sail
plan to eke out more speed--sprit sail with sprit boom, based on PB
comments in 103 Rigs. I am prety happy with the rig, but I think I
need to cut a new sail much flatter. (After committing to polytarp I
found a site in Philadelphia that sells Tyvek as a printing material up
to 12' wide, limitless lengths, with no logo on it.) When it gets
warmer I'll snap some pics and post them.
Matt Lawson
Trenton, NJ
more so than the ½ round internal chine. How would you hold them in
place while you get screws in and get it glued up? Look at Payson for
how-to on external chines. No table saw required, just a circular saw,
hand plane, nails, and glue. Real internal chines require precise
modifications of the forms so the thing will go together. Bolger has
thought this stuff through. Use external chines.
Regarding the junket you propose on your website, advice and cautions.
I'm a former whitewater raft guide, with friends who ran the Bio Bio
commercialy in Chile. From photos and stories you should be VERY
careful of that river. The worst horror story was the guy in his own
boat who got the 2" ash oar through his thigh....
With my whitewater history I wanted a do-everything boat and was
captivated by Bolger's Windsprint because of its lines similar to
western drift boats (for fly fishing) and Grand Canyon dories (and
seeing Black Skimmer posts and pics recently, I see lots of echos in
the lines). I built it stitch and glue to avoid the lateral turbulence
of external chines. I considered internal chines, but the problems of
all the extra angles to rip, modifying forms, etc., decided me against
it. On this list some time ago there was discussion of using PL glue
to slam together a Bolger Windsprint (for study plans, see Payson
above). I think you could assemble with PL in a couple of days,
especially if you don't build the daggerboard case. If you use
exterior grade plywood, you wouldn't even have to paint it. Because of
the stretch properties of PL, also discussed on this list earlier, I
don't think it would be rigid enough as fillets to give you the
strength you need there with the 1/2 round internal chines.
In rowing whitewater I've been very pleased with the Windsprint. It
also makes a good fly fishing platform anchored in swift water.
Patrick Crockett had warned me of some gripes so I modified the sail
plan to eke out more speed--sprit sail with sprit boom, based on PB
comments in 103 Rigs. I am prety happy with the rig, but I think I
need to cut a new sail much flatter. (After committing to polytarp I
found a site in Philadelphia that sells Tyvek as a printing material up
to 12' wide, limitless lengths, with no logo on it.) When it gets
warmer I'll snap some pics and post them.
Matt Lawson
Trenton, NJ
> half round for an internal chine. I think this could be used for a strongerFor a faster build, I recommend asking: Why does everything need to be
> fillet joint.
stronger? Indeed, everything that can be made weaker (simpler) {or
omitted entirely} gets you a faster build.
Of course, you should not make the weakest link in the chain too weak.
Figure out what is the weak link, and make it just strong enough.
Make all the other links no stronger than the weakest link.
Personally, I believe that fillets are far from the weakest link in fiberglass
sheathed boats and are overly strong.
On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 04:41:04 -0000, electricdrjoe wrote:
Lots of builders claim that it's faster and easier to use chine logs than to just "stitch and glue" the joints together. In most cases I agree with them. The chine logs give you something to nail to, and they becomes part of the boat. They have more surface area than epoxy putty fillets too, so the joint should be stronger when all is said and done.
In the case of vertical or nearly vertical sides I would suggest quarter round installed with epoxy in the plywood joint, with the rounded side out, and using epoxy putty to fill the gaps between the flat sides of the chine log and the plywood if the sides and bottom make a joint that's wider than 90 degrees.
Or if you're going to tape over the chine log eventually, cove base would be the best moulding to use, because it already has a concave radius curve in it which the glass tape will cover very easily as it extends from the hull side across the curved side of the cove base to the hull bottom.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
> After several days of research on how to build a slow boat, fasterRight, then you would be building with "internal chine logs".
> an idea came to me. Would it be possible to use half round moldings
> for an internal chine.
Lots of builders claim that it's faster and easier to use chine logs than to just "stitch and glue" the joints together. In most cases I agree with them. The chine logs give you something to nail to, and they becomes part of the boat. They have more surface area than epoxy putty fillets too, so the joint should be stronger when all is said and done.
In the case of vertical or nearly vertical sides I would suggest quarter round installed with epoxy in the plywood joint, with the rounded side out, and using epoxy putty to fill the gaps between the flat sides of the chine log and the plywood if the sides and bottom make a joint that's wider than 90 degrees.
Or if you're going to tape over the chine log eventually, cove base would be the best moulding to use, because it already has a concave radius curve in it which the glass tape will cover very easily as it extends from the hull side across the curved side of the cove base to the hull bottom.
Kenneth Grome
Bagacay Boat Works
The link worked fine but I thinc if you took something like a 2X3 and
ran it through the table saw on edge cutting a bevel lrom the corner
then running it on the other edge you could get a fillet that was
flat faced and more contact face then the 1/2 round. The stringth is
not in the fillet but in the glass over it and the standard fillet
alows the glass to make the transition smothly. Glass stays layed
down better with a curve or low angle then a tight angle. When
glassing the outside of a chine it lays better on a rounded chine
then a tight angled one.
Jon
Just a thought
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "electricdrjoe" <electrichospital@...>
wrote:
ran it through the table saw on edge cutting a bevel lrom the corner
then running it on the other edge you could get a fillet that was
flat faced and more contact face then the 1/2 round. The stringth is
not in the fillet but in the glass over it and the standard fillet
alows the glass to make the transition smothly. Glass stays layed
down better with a curve or low angle then a tight angle. When
glassing the outside of a chine it lays better on a rounded chine
then a tight angled one.
Jon
Just a thought
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "electricdrjoe" <electrichospital@...>
wrote:
>
> After several days of research on how to build a slow boat, faster
> an idea came to me. Would it be possible to use half round moldings
> for an internal chine. I think this could be used for a stronger
> fillet joint. Perhaps PL (concrete sealant) could be used and
> galvanized deck screws to attach the panels together. I am not an
> engineer but it seems the acute angle of the two fillets in the
> upper image is stronger than the obtuse angel in the lower image.
> The other thought is their would be some additional strength added
> to the fore and aft strength with moldings in the fillet. The idea
> behind the half round is the flat panels will always be tangent to
> the curve to fit in a joint as compared to trying to shape a curved
> chine with flat stock.
>
> Possibly bamboo would work for the fillet too.
>
>
> Is this being done?
>
> I don't know if this link to a drawing I made to explain this
> thought will work.
>
>http://www.sewandvacdirect.com/canoe_stitchnglue_fillet.htm
>
After several days of research on how to build a slow boat, faster
an idea came to me. Would it be possible to use half round moldings
for an internal chine. I think this could be used for a stronger
fillet joint. Perhaps PL (concrete sealant) could be used and
galvanized deck screws to attach the panels together. I am not an
engineer but it seems the acute angle of the two fillets in the
upper image is stronger than the obtuse angel in the lower image.
The other thought is their would be some additional strength added
to the fore and aft strength with moldings in the fillet. The idea
behind the half round is the flat panels will always be tangent to
the curve to fit in a joint as compared to trying to shape a curved
chine with flat stock.
Possibly bamboo would work for the fillet too.
Is this being done?
I don't know if this link to a drawing I made to explain this
thought will work.
http://www.sewandvacdirect.com/canoe_stitchnglue_fillet.htm
an idea came to me. Would it be possible to use half round moldings
for an internal chine. I think this could be used for a stronger
fillet joint. Perhaps PL (concrete sealant) could be used and
galvanized deck screws to attach the panels together. I am not an
engineer but it seems the acute angle of the two fillets in the
upper image is stronger than the obtuse angel in the lower image.
The other thought is their would be some additional strength added
to the fore and aft strength with moldings in the fillet. The idea
behind the half round is the flat panels will always be tangent to
the curve to fit in a joint as compared to trying to shape a curved
chine with flat stock.
Possibly bamboo would work for the fillet too.
Is this being done?
I don't know if this link to a drawing I made to explain this
thought will work.
http://www.sewandvacdirect.com/canoe_stitchnglue_fillet.htm