Re: Love or money?

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
>
> There is a whole separate issue, that of his letters. While
drawing
> thousands of discarded designs and finishing 700 or so he has had
a
> voluminous correspondence with his customers. Many of his designs
have
> involved almost a books worth of letters.
>
> HJ
>
Right you are Harry!

His letters alone, are not just about boat design either, but cover
an entire philosphy as well a historical period in American life and
boating across time and borders.

There could be a museum totally devoted to him and those whom he has
associated with. And it would be of interest to a broad spectrum of
the population. Of course there could be no better location than
Glouster either.

It is too bad we seem to have to wait until a person is gone to
offer them the respect and recognition they should have been given
when still living.

I listened to a program on public radio where they had as guests two
archivests responsible for saving and cataloging significant
materials of all kinds for the province I reside in, and it was
pretty obvious how interested they were in their work. Stuff most of
us would find incredibley boring. And with present technology they
have some great tools and expertise to save and enhance old photos
and newspaper articles etc. They were being paid to do this from the
public purse but I think would do it for nothing if they had to. Was
quite a revelation for me.

And like they said. What is happening today, is tomorrow's history.
Why wait until a lot of it gets lost or damaged beyond recognition?

Maybe we could get a grant from Bill Gates. He owes us a favor:-)

Nels
There is a whole separate issue, that of his letters. While drawing
thousands of discarded designs and finishing 700 or so he has had a
voluminous correspondence with his customers. Many of his designs have
involved almost a books worth of letters.

HJ

Nels wrote:

--snip--
> I think that post is several years old now. The technology has
> advanced tremedously. I would suggest that an archived site could be
> set up quite quickly if a person was given access to be allowed to
> gather the information together. Archivists are really adept at
> stuff like that and do it for a lot of mundane stuff nobody will
> ever be interested in.
>
> And he is such a great writer that some of it should be documented
> as well. Almost every article he writes has an example of his
> cutting wit.
>
> It would be interesting to do a documentary on his life too. Most
> people are not even aware of what a living legend and genius he is.
>
> Also it would be great if he could get a sufficient income flow so
> he could travel to some of the places and actually sail there. I can
> think of Australia, NZ, - Tasmania for sure - and Alaska for the
> launching of Double Eagle and then back through Canada to see
> Windermere and Anenome hit the water. And get to a few messabouts as
> well if he felt like it and try some of the many designs he has not
> even seen in 3D let alone sailed.
>
> Nels
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
<jon@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Nels,
> If it were only just "over two years!" We've just passed the five
> year mark on Auriga, with no end in sight and no activity on the
> design that we are aware of for at least two years. It's especially
> frustrating to know that they've dropped everything to update
> existing designs for folks who contacted them years after we put our
> money down.
>
Yikes - has it been that long already? So I guess it has been almost
three years since I enquired about Long Micro Navigator upgrades. I
was told then they were too busy. Then about a year later when Jason
Stancil enquired he was told it would be a good idea but nobody had
asked. I just dropped following up on it as I knew there were others
who had already invested in commissions and felt I could wait until
they caught up. Now I realize I can forget it.

Not much a person can do either. One could demand their money back but
what good is that as the time lost cannot be replaced for any money.

Very sad situation and no obvious solution that I can think of.

Nels
Hi Nels,

> It's just that I feel there must be a lot of frustration for those
> waiting over two years of their commission and still nothing. And
> then there are others like myself who hesitate to bother them
> further, since that would just create more delays.

If it were only just "over two years!" We've just passed the five
year mark on Auriga, with no end in sight and no activity on the
design that we are aware of for at least two years. It's especially
frustrating to know that they've dropped everything to update
existing designs for folks who contacted them years after we put our
money down.

> Every good building day is lost - forever - and not to mention the
> unbelievable jumps in cost of good building materials during the
> past couple of years.

How true. Of course, I'm having fun building several small boats
while waiting for our commission, but the dream of building Auriga
while I'm still young enough to attempt a 50-footer working alone
seems to slip ever farther away. The pain is doubled on those really
bad days at work, especially when I try to imagine where I'd be in
construction right now if the design had been completed in the
promised 10-15 months.

Jon Kolb
http://www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
Nothing will be Lost !!!!
Sure my Favorite : the Sir Joseph Banks for Vanuatu
shows Phil's real Art : how to resolve a problem !
in a simple , to the point matter .

The Sir Joseph Banks , sure will receive much interest today !
Oil prices are not suposed to go down soon .
A Sailing Cargo for the development world !!!

In a way , that boat was designed for todays use .
Some should have started using that boat when it was designed.

How was it designed ??? With a smile !!!
Boatdesign must be FUN was and remains Phil's lesson .
Ahead of his time ???
Not with all boats , with some , sure HE was !!!

Cheers :-)
Old Ben
=================
Hi All, hi Nels , sorry for the correction , your post forces me
to repost what I wrote , nothing less , nothing more !!!

Cneers :-)
Old Ben
==================
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" <ben_azo@> wrote:
> > > What concerns me is that it is being lost for the PRESENT
> > generation.
> > >
> > > But I guess the other designers just get the spinoff benefits
of
> > that
> > > loss. And some newer ones are coming forward to fill the gap.
> > >
> > > nels
> > ==================
> > Nothing will be Lost !!!!
>
> It's just that I feel there must be a lot of frustration for those
> waiting over two years of their commission and still nothing. And
> then there are others like myself who hesitate to bother them
> further, since that would just create more delays.
>
> Every good building day is lost - forever - and not to mention the
> unbelievable jumps in cost of good building materials during the
> past couple of years.
>
> Nels
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Puck III" <ben_azo@...> wrote:
> > What concerns me is that it is being lost for the PRESENT
> generation.
> >
> > But I guess the other designers just get the spinoff benefits of
> that
> > loss. And some newer ones are coming forward to fill the gap.
> >
> > nels
> ==================
> Nothing will be Lost !!!!

It's just that I feel there must be a lot of frustration for those
waiting over two years of their commission and still nothing. And
then there are others like myself who hesitate to bother them
further, since that would just create more delays.

Every good building day is lost - forever - and not to mention the
unbelievable jumps in cost of good building materials during the
past couple of years.

Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@>
> wrote:
> >
> > All that has been said has a point but there are some of us that
can
> > not get what we want in a bolger design but cone here to lurn
about
> > building metheds. There are a lot in the group that will never
build
> > a boat but are on the list so size of group and active people are
> two
> > things differently. It would be nice to see what he has done not
> lost
> > for the next generation.
> >
> > Jon
>
> What concerns me is that it is being lost for the PRESENT
generation.
>
> But I guess the other designers just get the spinoff benefits of
that
> loss. And some newer ones are coming forward to fill the gap.
>
> nels
==================
Nothing will be Lost !!!!
Sure my Favorite : the Sir Joseph Banks for Vanuatu
shows Phil's real Art : how to resolve a problem !
in a simple , to the point matter .

The Sir Joseph Banks , sure will receive much interest today !
Oil prices are not suposed to go down soon .
A Sailing Cargo for the development world !!!

In a way , that boat was designed for todays use .
Some should have started using that boat when it was designed.

How was it designed ??? With a smile !!!
Boatdesign must be FUN was and remains Phil's lesson .
Ahead of his time ???
Not with all boats , with some , sure HE was !!!

Cheers :-)
Old Ben
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
wrote:
>
> All that has been said has a point but there are some of us that can
> not get what we want in a bolger design but cone here to lurn about
> building metheds. There are a lot in the group that will never build
> a boat but are on the list so size of group and active people are
two
> things differently. It would be nice to see what he has done not
lost
> for the next generation.
>
> Jon

What concerns me is that it is being lost for the PRESENT generation.

But I guess the other designers just get the spinoff benefits of that
loss. And some newer ones are coming forward to fill the gap.

nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Kelk" <mikeboatman@>
> wrote:
> Also it would be great if he could get a sufficient income flow so
> he could travel to some of the places and actually sail there. I can
> think of Australia, NZ, - Tasmania for sure - and Alaska for the
> launching of Double Eagle and then back through Canada to see
> Windermere and Anenome hit the water. And get to a few messabouts as
> well if he felt like it and try some of the many designs he has not
> even seen in 3D let alone sailed.

The impresion I have is PCB is not want to physically travel much
anywheres else other than what seems to be his beloved "Down East"
region. "Resolution" was conceived to live aboard comfortably without
the requirement of getting about all over that much. He was in Germany
a few years ago though, and he'd get a big welcome in Oz I'm sure.
(Another designer of even greater inaccessability in the wilds of
Skye, Iain Oughtred (snail mail only), returned to Oz for the last
Wooden Boat Festival)

Graeme
All that has been said has a point but there are some of us that can
not get what we want in a bolger design but cone here to lurn about
building metheds. There are a lot in the group that will never build
a boat but are on the list so size of group and active people are two
things differently. It would be nice to see what he has done not lost
for the next generation.

Jon

--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@...> wrote:
>
> I wonder if the issue isn't concern over possible theft of his
> intellectual property. The problems with Common Sense Designs must
> weigh heavily when they contemplate any new sales outlet or
collaboration.
>
> -- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Kelk" <mikeboatman@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I recently wrote to Phil with this very question. I asked if he
had
> a list
> > of designs or a catalogue. I told him I am a librarian gathering a
> list of
> > his designs from what I could find for my own reference and use.
> Even using
> > a national database, not all his published books are held in
> Australia. I
> > await his letter.
> >
> > I read in one of his posts to this site, that the job of getting
his
> > designs, with descriptions, on a Web site is enormous, but he
seemed
> to be
> > at least thinking on it. I live in Au but maybe someone near him
could
> > volunteer their time to Phil and take the task on. Maybe even a
little
> > group could be started. Many libraries rely on voluntary labour
to get
> > their photo collections in order. What we need is a total list of
> his work,
> > a knowledge of the whole lot and accessible. Maybe this group
could
> field
> > simple questions on designs on Phil's behalf. Orders snail mailed
> to Phil
> > with $ to help supply them. This yahoo group goes a long way
> towards that
> > but its structure is not great for gathering a sense of the whole.
> >
> > Just my view but well worth considering before his death. A
taped oral
> > history of each design would surely be sought by the nearest oral
> history
> > unit of the nearest State library (US equivalent). A taped oral
> history of
> > his life would be good. How many have done your family history
> prior to
> > your parents death? Could even make an interesting history thesis
> for a
> > naval architect student. Wish I lived in the US. I would be on
his
> door in
> > a flash.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
>
This weekend I had the opportunity to sit down and have a long talk with
Phil and Suzanne. The two of them are deeply involved in a development
which they can not talk about. It is important. And it will go on for at
least a little bit longer.

Phil is troubled as to whether or not he was morally correct to
undertake their effort considering that it would, as it obviously has,
mean the delaying of projects that had been properly promised to people.

When they are free to talk about it I am certain that most of the
members of the group will at least understand the reasons for delay.

This is not meant to be mysterious although I guess that is sort of has
to be. My purpose is to reassure all that he is not indifferent or
disdaining of the body of folk who have a sincere interest in their work.

Love, or Money, or Fear ? None of the above.

The work that they are on, in their opinion, is their moral obligation.

Jim


Nels wrote:

>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wonder if the issue isn't concern over possible theft of his
intellectual property. The problems with Common Sense Designs must
weigh heavily when they contemplate any new sales outlet or collaboration.

-- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Kelk" <mikeboatman@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I recently wrote to Phil with this very question. I asked if he had
a list
> of designs or a catalogue. I told him I am a librarian gathering a
list of
> his designs from what I could find for my own reference and use.
Even using
> a national database, not all his published books are held in
Australia. I
> await his letter.
>
> I read in one of his posts to this site, that the job of getting his
> designs, with descriptions, on a Web site is enormous, but he seemed
to be
> at least thinking on it. I live in Au but maybe someone near him could
> volunteer their time to Phil and take the task on. Maybe even a little
> group could be started. Many libraries rely on voluntary labour to get
> their photo collections in order. What we need is a total list of
his work,
> a knowledge of the whole lot and accessible. Maybe this group could
field
> simple questions on designs on Phil's behalf. Orders snail mailed
to Phil
> with $ to help supply them. This yahoo group goes a long way
towards that
> but its structure is not great for gathering a sense of the whole.
>
> Just my view but well worth considering before his death. A taped oral
> history of each design would surely be sought by the nearest oral
history
> unit of the nearest State library (US equivalent). A taped oral
history of
> his life would be good. How many have done your family history
prior to
> your parents death? Could even make an interesting history thesis
for a
> naval architect student. Wish I lived in the US. I would be on his
door in
> a flash.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Kelk" <mikeboatman@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>> I read in one of his posts to this site, that the job of getting
his
> designs, with descriptions, on a Web site is enormous, but he
seemed to be
> at least thinking on it.

I think that post is several years old now. The technology has
advanced tremedously. I would suggest that an archived site could be
set up quite quickly if a person was given access to be allowed to
gather the information together. Archivists are really adept at
stuff like that and do it for a lot of mundane stuff nobody will
ever be interested in.

And he is such a great writer that some of it should be documented
as well. Almost every article he writes has an example of his
cutting wit.

It would be interesting to do a documentary on his life too. Most
people are not even aware of what a living legend and genius he is.

Also it would be great if he could get a sufficient income flow so
he could travel to some of the places and actually sail there. I can
think of Australia, NZ, - Tasmania for sure - and Alaska for the
launching of Double Eagle and then back through Canada to see
Windermere and Anenome hit the water. And get to a few messabouts as
well if he felt like it and try some of the many designs he has not
even seen in 3D let alone sailed.

Nels
Hi All,

I recently wrote to Phil with this very question. I asked if he had a list
of designs or a catalogue. I told him I am a librarian gathering a list of
his designs from what I could find for my own reference and use. Even using
a national database, not all his published books are held in Australia. I
await his letter.

I read in one of his posts to this site, that the job of getting his
designs, with descriptions, on a Web site is enormous, but he seemed to be
at least thinking on it. I live in Au but maybe someone near him could
volunteer their time to Phil and take the task on. Maybe even a little
group could be started. Many libraries rely on voluntary labour to get
their photo collections in order. What we need is a total list of his work,
a knowledge of the whole lot and accessible. Maybe this group could field
simple questions on designs on Phil's behalf. Orders snail mailed to Phil
with $ to help supply them. This yahoo group goes a long way towards that
but its structure is not great for gathering a sense of the whole.

Just my view but well worth considering before his death. A taped oral
history of each design would surely be sought by the nearest oral history
unit of the nearest State library (US equivalent). A taped oral history of
his life would be good. How many have done your family history prior to
your parents death? Could even make an interesting history thesis for a
naval architect student. Wish I lived in the US. I would be on his door in
a flash.

Mike








----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:34 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Love or money?


> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...> wrote:
>>
>> The size of this group says it all: over 2700 members, nearly
> 50,000 posts. If Phil and
>> Susanne made themselves "more accessible," they would be swamped
> by a flood of casual
>> inquiries.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I've sent PCB & Friends several faxed
> inquiries, and have always
>> received a prompt reply. I sent Jim Michalak an e-mail proposing
> to commission a design,
>> and never heard back from him.
>>
>
> Well then I guess the obvious choice would be to commission it
> through PCB&F then:-)
>
> Nels
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "s_paskey" <s_paskey@...> wrote:
>
> The size of this group says it all: over 2700 members, nearly
50,000 posts. If Phil and
> Susanne made themselves "more accessible," they would be swamped
by a flood of casual
> inquiries.
>
> For what it's worth, I've sent PCB & Friends several faxed
inquiries, and have always
> received a prompt reply. I sent Jim Michalak an e-mail proposing
to commission a design,
> and never heard back from him.
>

Well then I guess the obvious choice would be to commission it
through PCB&F then:-)

Nels

Nels
The size of this group says it all: over 2700 members, nearly 50,000 posts. If Phil and
Susanne made themselves "more accessible," they would be swamped by a flood of casual
inquiries.

For what it's worth, I've sent PCB & Friends several faxed inquiries, and have always
received a prompt reply. I sent Jim Michalak an e-mail proposing to commission a design,
and never heard back from him.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Bell" <smallboatdesigner@...>
wrote:
> Depends. Is Bolger working for love or money?Since he's still
working at 79
> years old, I don't think money's the object any more. Now maybe
Susanne has
> bigger plans for the money side of the equation when Phil finally
stops
> working. Maybe not. Whatever happens, I'm sure it will give us
something to
> talk about.
>
> Hopefully PCB&F will not take the path chosen by Antonio Dias.
>

Hi John,

I wasn't referring to money but accessability. I get the impression
that Jim and John and Paul are not in if for the money either so
much as the love of their vocation.

In an article of Phil's it seems he was lamenting that he gets very
little feedback from many of the builders of his boats. I don't
think that is the case with the three other designers I mentioned.
Communication is not a one-way street - it goes both ways.

I also observe prospective builders who are buying plans that are
both more difficult and less capable than a comparable Bolger
design. I wonder how many sets of Bolger plans are lost to the black
market, which would dry up a lot if people could get first-hand
information on the designs.

Granted you can often get that information once you know his fax
number and quite often get a phone call back. But how efficient is
that if you are only mildly curious about a design and Susanne calls
you back and talks to you for two hours?

Both Michalak and Welsford have very simple web-sites and a
discussion forum that they monitor at times. Then there is Duckworks
with links to them as well as another discussion group that Chuck
the Duckworks owner, contributes to. This combination gets the
information out to a lot of people - many who are not aware of
Bolger it seems - so it is like a missing opportunity.

A person could die by the time his commission gets completed. A lot
of us guys aren't so young as we were when we first heard about
Phil;-)

Nels
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
> It pains me that PCB&F are obviously losing a lot of business by
> being so inaccessable. JUst look at what Jim Michalak, John Welsford
> and Paul Fisher are doing, just to mention three who's designs are
> of interest to me.
>
> Sure, PCB&F are going to leave a great heritage behind, but why not
> make more of it accessible right now?

Depends. Is Bolger working for love or money?Since he's still working at 79
years old, I don't think money's the object any more. Now maybe Susanne has
bigger plans for the money side of the equation when Phil finally stops
working. Maybe not. Whatever happens, I'm sure it will give us something to
talk about.

Hopefully PCB&F will not take the path chosen by Antonio Dias.