Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger wikipedia index
> I offer again my colaboration as a web developer, to start some kind ofGreat, do it. That is a beautiful thing about the Web, is that
> website that contains an "index" of the 600+ Bolger designs.
>
> Regards, Máximo.
content in far away places can be linked together easily.
> The problem is that yahoo requires that you be logged in toA year ago, I suggest to start a small website with a database of Bolger
designs, description, size, photos, study-plans, links, commentaries, etc.
The idea (except for Stefan, Curtis and a few others) didn t get much
response from the Bolger community. Nobody send data, photos or anything.
The site would be free, you don t need to register, and if I get a donation
for hosting, is a plus (but not mandatory) I think people dislike this, I
dont know.
Even Bruce tried to start a flickr group for more photo storage, also
Wikipedia, and I see that people didn t like also very much neither of them.
As an example, I start a free small website of a local class of sailboat
from the 70s "Alpha 25", and I have a lot of response from the owners, who
send me photos, technical data, etc (In spanish)
http://www.alpha25.com.ar
I offer again my colaboration as a web developer, to start some kind of
website that contains an "index" of the 600+ Bolger designs.
Regards, Máximo.
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:Yahoo
> I just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that
> puts a bomb in their URL's that prevents direct linking. In otherThe problem is that yahoo requires that you be logged in to
> words, the link works from my PC, but apparently not from yours.
access the files and photos sections, although this is not a
requirement to access the messages.
I know that public/member access to the messages is a configurable
setting for the group, is it possible to make the other sections
public?
Bruce Fountain
Systems Engineer
Union Switch & Signal
Perth, Western Australia
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Reading your last sentence... Will the "links" section of the group provide a third place to access pictures after "photos" and "files". Is there a shortcomming to that Yahoo facility?The Yahoo Links section works, but it is not as versatile at
>
> Gene T.
Wikipedia's by far. Also, I oppose donating my time to a 'for profit'
concern like Yahoo. Read their fine print, they take license to what
we write.
Reading your last sentence... Will the "links" section of the group provide a third place to access pictures after "photos" and "files". Is there a shortcomming to that Yahoo facility?
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2006 12:09:54 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger wikipedia index
putting [[square backets]] around the URL. And more, Wikipedia
is resiliant, you can't break it. To edit a page, click 'edit this page',
located at the top of each page. It really is as easy as using
a word processor.
file / photo storage that is hobbled by the Yahoo inablity to
provide URL links to files and photos.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gene T.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Hallman <bruce@...>
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 2, 2006 12:09:54 AM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bolger wikipedia index
> profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folksWikipedia doesn't require HTML. Adding links is as simple as
> would seem obliged to learn HTML to provide new contributions, edit,
> and add links etc.
putting [[square backets]] around the URL. And more, Wikipedia
is resiliant, you can't break it. To edit a page, click 'edit this page',
located at the top of each page. It really is as easy as using
a word processor.
> The yahoo(groups) format isI don't suggest that we move the discussion group. It is just the
> one that folks are used to, and it's easy to pick up.
file / photo storage that is hobbled by the Yahoo inablity to
provide URL links to files and photos.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folksWikipedia doesn't require HTML. Adding links is as simple as
> would seem obliged to learn HTML to provide new contributions, edit,
> and add links etc.
putting [[square backets]] around the URL. And more, Wikipedia
is resiliant, you can't break it. To edit a page, click 'edit this page',
located at the top of each page. It really is as easy as using
a word processor.
> The yahoo(groups) format isI don't suggest that we move the discussion group. It is just the
> one that folks are used to, and it's easy to pick up.
file / photo storage that is hobbled by the Yahoo inablity to
provide URL links to files and photos.
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:I hear what you're saying Bruce. An independent community run non-
profit site would be good. An issue with Wikipedia is that folks
would seem obliged to learn HTML to provide new contributions, edit,
and add links etc. I feel a fair degree of resistance personally to
investing the time and energy into such a learning task. I probably
could if I really had to, but at the moment the "H" in HTML might as
well stand for "huh?" (said as the eyes glaze over I'm afraid).
You're right to point out that if Yahoo site content became
inaccessible for any reason we'd be at a loss. As an Index elsewhere
(say, Wikipedia) to yahoo bolgergroups' files, photos, links, and
threads would also lose currency it may be prudent to back-up all
those "stored things" as you suggest. The yahoo(groups) format is
one that folks are used to, and it's easy to pick up. Is there any
move at Wiki to provide a similar way for contributors to use the
site? I've seen news and blog type sites adopt commercially
available software that allow IT-challenged people easier
involvement. Yahoo, Microsoft, Google etc. don't seem to have a
monopoly on methods of interacting for people without HTML skills.
By the way that bomb must also prevent yahoogroups' content being
displayed off-line. Only individually viewed posts are available to
me when off line, no expanded batched messages, files, or photos.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > > >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including
the
> > > >YONDER one.
> > >
> > > Feel free to fix them.
> >
> > I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed
to "fix
> > them"?
>
> I just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that
Yahoo
> puts a bomb in their URL's that prevents direct linking. In other
> words, the link works from my PC, but apparently not from yours.
>
> Good for Yahoo profit, I suppose, but reason enough to not put our
> eggs in that basket. Migrating the 'stored things' away from Yahoo
> makes sense in light of this.
>
> One way to 'fix it' would be to put the image somewhere else,
> other than in a Yahoo group, and then adjust the wikipedia
> link to point there.
>
> > ...is not accepting an amount of money for a
> > commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a
form
> > of contract - legal and binding?
>
> I (we) don't know the details of the contract.
>
> Regardless, I doubt that any contract can
> compel a creative mind to create on cue.
>
> > >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including theI just got a chance to diagnose the problem and it appears that Yahoo
> > >YONDER one.
> >
> > Feel free to fix them.
>
> I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed to "fix
> them"?
puts a bomb in their URL's that prevents direct linking. In other
words, the link works from my PC, but apparently not from yours.
Good for Yahoo profit, I suppose, but reason enough to not put our
eggs in that basket. Migrating the 'stored things' away from Yahoo
makes sense in light of this.
One way to 'fix it' would be to put the image somewhere else,
other than in a Yahoo group, and then adjust the wikipedia
link to point there.
> ...is not accepting an amount of money for aI (we) don't know the details of the contract.
> commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a form
> of contract - legal and binding?
Regardless, I doubt that any contract can
compel a creative mind to create on cue.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
them"?
If I had the information to fix them, - I would not have clicked on
the link to seek the information:-)
I agree, and I was not suggesting volunteers in that regard. I was
simply suggesting an alternative to the present situation that seems
very confusing for prospective plan buyers.Or seekers of information.
Bruce, I fully realize that nobody has offered their volunteer
assistance more than you. And we are all grateful for that because
you have filled in a tremendous gap in the amount of information
that would have been otherwise lacking. And I am quite certain PCB&F
appreciate your efforts as much as the rest of us.
Is it viable to consider other alternatives? Perhaps it is perhaps
it is not. That is one reason we support discussion groups.
alternative avenues.
have been honored to date. (One hangs above my head as I type.)
Perhaps the results have not been entirely up to my expectations but
that is a part of the artists perogative. So you seem to be
suggesting that PCB&F are artists and not nautical architects? So if
I have commisioned a Wandervogel I have to accept their
interpretation - a Birdwatcher? And feel grateful and satisfied?
commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a form
of contract - legal and binding?
This is not intended as criticism but simply good business practice.
To accept money and then claim that I have more noble things to do
does not really encourage more business in my view.
I would have to wonder how many members in this group are lining up
to commission any work from a group we all deeply admire for their
expertise and yet are wary we ever get results - and how many will
look at the Duckorks alternatives?
Sincerely,
Nels
>I checked the link seeking information. So how am I supposed to "fix
> >I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the
> >YONDER one.
>
> Feel free to fix them.
them"?
If I had the information to fix them, - I would not have clicked on
the link to seek the information:-)
> > I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the Leinwebersprofit' enterprises. No offense intended.
> > and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?
>
> Bless them both, but both websites are 'for profit' and some people
> [like me] are not willing to volunteer their services to 'for
I agree, and I was not suggesting volunteers in that regard. I was
simply suggesting an alternative to the present situation that seems
very confusing for prospective plan buyers.Or seekers of information.
Bruce, I fully realize that nobody has offered their volunteer
assistance more than you. And we are all grateful for that because
you have filled in a tremendous gap in the amount of information
that would have been otherwise lacking. And I am quite certain PCB&F
appreciate your efforts as much as the rest of us.
Is it viable to consider other alternatives? Perhaps it is perhaps
it is not. That is one reason we support discussion groups.
> Not to mention that 'fair use' of copyrighted materials areGranted, and my intention is not to pass judgement but to offer
> more restrained by 'for profit' concerns, than not.
>
> > Reality is, are [Phil and Susanne] now honoring theirs?
>
> It is best that we reserve judgement
> without knowing the details of their agreements.
alternative avenues.
>I have commissioned art and will continue to. All of my commissions
> All in all, I think that commissioning an artist
> to create a work of art [on schedule] is much
> different that hiring a draftsman to scribe up
> a variation on a stock design.
>
> I am reminded of the Robert Hunter lyric:
>
> "...we paid the storyteller off in gold,
> with hopes he would come back,
> but he could not be bought or sold."
have been honored to date. (One hangs above my head as I type.)
Perhaps the results have not been entirely up to my expectations but
that is a part of the artists perogative. So you seem to be
suggesting that PCB&F are artists and not nautical architects? So if
I have commisioned a Wandervogel I have to accept their
interpretation - a Birdwatcher? And feel grateful and satisfied?
>No doubt a noble cause but is not accepting an amount of money for a
> Who are we to criticise that PB&F chose
> to divert time from designing recreational
> boats, and instead chose to donate time
> to design an economical low powered
> 'outside the box' commercial fishing vessel,
> in attempt to single handedly save the
> beleaguered New England fishery?
> [A noble cause.]
>
commission a form of "made for profit" enterprise as well as a form
of contract - legal and binding?
This is not intended as criticism but simply good business practice.
To accept money and then claim that I have more noble things to do
does not really encourage more business in my view.
I would have to wonder how many members in this group are lining up
to commission any work from a group we all deeply admire for their
expertise and yet are wary we ever get results - and how many will
look at the Duckorks alternatives?
Sincerely,
Nels
>I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including theFeel free to fix them.
>YONDER one.
> I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the LeinwebersBless them both, but both websites are 'for profit' and some people
> and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?
[like me] are not willing to volunteer their services to 'for profit'
enterprises. No offense intended.
Not to mention that 'fair use' of copyrighted materials are
more restrained by 'for profit' concerns, than not.
> Reality is, are [Phil and Susanne] now honoring theirs?It is best that we reserve judgement
without knowing the details of their agreements.
All in all, I think that commissioning an artist
to create a work of art [on schedule] is much
different that hiring a draftsman to scribe up
a variation on a stock design.
I am reminded of the Robert Hunter lyric:
"...we paid the storyteller off in gold,
with hopes he would come back,
but he could not be bought or sold."
Who are we to criticise that PB&F chose
to divert time from designing recreational
boats, and instead chose to donate time
to design an economical low powered
'outside the box' commercial fishing vessel,
in attempt to single handedly save the
beleaguered New England fishery?
[A noble cause.]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
YONDER one.
I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the Leinwebers
and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?
Duckworks already has and honorable track record, has MAIB
available online and the Bolger articles could be offered as study
plans at say $5 a piece through Paypal. Instant downloads and the
editor and PCB could take a royalty or whatever they agree too.
The designers that are presently onboard with Duckworks seem to be
happy with the set-up there, and most are great admirers of Bolgers
heritage in their designs.
Chuck is even offering sail and epoxy kits for many of the designs
they are offering. In addition there is a large inventory of
hardware and equipment which is specifically designed for the small
DIY builder.
Then it could be tied in with the Bolger yahoo groups so that
everyone could benefit from each others experiences, dreams, and
exchange information, without bothering anbody's work load.
To me it would actually take the pressure off Phil and Susanne as
the information is already available for the casual dreamer to
pursue rather than trying to contact them personally.
Sure, they had a bad experience and got ripped off by some
individuals who did not honor their commitments.
Reality is, are they now honoring theirs?
Nels
> Much better would be some online space that functions under a GPLstart at an
> 'general public license' such at Wikipedia. There is already a
> index of online references of Bolger boats, including the Yahoophotos
> and files see:Susan
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bolger
>
> Which is GPL and collaborative. Indeed, even Phil Bolger and
> Altenberger could make edits and contributions there if they hadthe
> time and the urge.including you!
>
> Editing is simple and easy, allowed by anybody in good faith,
> Those people who are willing can make contributions there.I checked it out and found some of the links dead, including the
YONDER one.
I still cannot understand why a collaboration with the Leinwebers
and Duckworks as well as Dynamite Payson would not be feasable?
Duckworks already has and honorable track record, has MAIB
available online and the Bolger articles could be offered as study
plans at say $5 a piece through Paypal. Instant downloads and the
editor and PCB could take a royalty or whatever they agree too.
The designers that are presently onboard with Duckworks seem to be
happy with the set-up there, and most are great admirers of Bolgers
heritage in their designs.
Chuck is even offering sail and epoxy kits for many of the designs
they are offering. In addition there is a large inventory of
hardware and equipment which is specifically designed for the small
DIY builder.
Then it could be tied in with the Bolger yahoo groups so that
everyone could benefit from each others experiences, dreams, and
exchange information, without bothering anbody's work load.
To me it would actually take the pressure off Phil and Susanne as
the information is already available for the casual dreamer to
pursue rather than trying to contact them personally.
Sure, they had a bad experience and got ripped off by some
individuals who did not honor their commitments.
Reality is, are they now honoring theirs?
Nels
Graeme wrote:>
retains dictatorial power over everything we write. [I don't like that.]
Though, you have the right idea, this project must be collaborative
and collective
where everybody may add/amend entries to keep it current.
Much better would be some online space that functions under a GPL
'general public license' such at Wikipedia. There is already a start at an
index of online references of Bolger boats, including the Yahoo photos
and files see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bolger
Which is GPL and collaborative. Indeed, even Phil Bolger and Susan
Altenberger could make edits and contributions there if they had the
time and the urge.
Editing is simple and easy, allowed by anybody in good faith, including you!
Those people who are willing can make contributions there.
> The yahoogroup database approach has the advantages that any memberTrue, sort of. But the Yahoogroups license agreement basically says that Yahoo
> may add/amend entries keeping it current,
retains dictatorial power over everything we write. [I don't like that.]
Though, you have the right idea, this project must be collaborative
and collective
where everybody may add/amend entries to keep it current.
Much better would be some online space that functions under a GPL
'general public license' such at Wikipedia. There is already a start at an
index of online references of Bolger boats, including the Yahoo photos
and files see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Bolger
Which is GPL and collaborative. Indeed, even Phil Bolger and Susan
Altenberger could make edits and contributions there if they had the
time and the urge.
Editing is simple and easy, allowed by anybody in good faith, including you!
Those people who are willing can make contributions there.