Re: [bolger] dories, not necessarily 100% on bolger topic
I agree with Harry. Twenty years ago, I also had a Gloucester Gull. I also had a high stress job and I would row the Gull the 7 mile length of a lake a friend lived on, as a stress reliever. The windier the better. Sometimes 25 to 30 MPH. The lake ran north/south and when the wind was out of the north and fast I'd row to the upper end of the lake and just about fly back. ( For the Minnesotans this was lake Carlos outside Alexandria.)
Waves were choppy and with the seven mile fetch they were occassionally two feet plus at the south end. The Gull was just fine in the chop. Except that at times when on top of a wave if the wind and waves weren't aligned right the boat would weathervane. That can be an interesting thing in a boat that sits so high in the water and doesn't have much initial bouyancy. I fastened a centered skeg ( a 2" x 2" ripped from treated yellow pine) to the bottom of the hull and the boat tracked much better after that.
Jim
Waves were choppy and with the seven mile fetch they were occassionally two feet plus at the south end. The Gull was just fine in the chop. Except that at times when on top of a wave if the wind and waves weren't aligned right the boat would weathervane. That can be an interesting thing in a boat that sits so high in the water and doesn't have much initial bouyancy. I fastened a centered skeg ( a 2" x 2" ripped from treated yellow pine) to the bottom of the hull and the boat tracked much better after that.
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Harry James
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] dories, not necessarily 100% on bolger topic
Dories are rowboats not sailboats, have had real good luck with the
Gloucester Gull. Wind is more of an issue than wave height because of
windage. You can pack a huge amount of camping gear compared to a kayak
and go about as fast.
HJ
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dories are rowboats not sailboats, have had real good luck with the
Gloucester Gull. Wind is more of an issue than wave height because of
windage. You can pack a huge amount of camping gear compared to a kayak
and go about as fast.
HJ
Wesley Cox wrote:
Gloucester Gull. Wind is more of an issue than wave height because of
windage. You can pack a huge amount of camping gear compared to a kayak
and go about as fast.
HJ
Wesley Cox wrote:
> I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
> than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one. Would
> anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on water
> with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
> worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would love
> to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to build
> one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring, but
> all opinions would be most appreciated.
>
>
>
Check out the Yahoo Dory Group, very helpful:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DoryBoat/?yguid=140880010
The French seem to like the dory. Some good pics and files here.
Good info too I'm told, but unfortunately my French is not up to it:
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/voile-aviron/?yguid=140880010
For a dory they luv the dipping lug
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/voile-aviron/files/photos/
Graeme
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DoryBoat/?yguid=140880010
The French seem to like the dory. Some good pics and files here.
Good info too I'm told, but unfortunately my French is not up to it:
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/voile-aviron/?yguid=140880010
For a dory they luv the dipping lug
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/voile-aviron/files/photos/
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Orr" <jas_orr@...> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I don't have any direct experience in dories, but if you go to the
> Openboat group on Yahoo, there's someone called malcolmf who posts
> there. He has a fibreglass Swampscott (multichine) dory and can
tell
> you all you want about rowing, sailing and cruising it. Searching
the
> membership list will find him, or check recent posts.
>
> Good luck
>
> Jamie
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@> wrote:
> >
> > I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones
more so
> > than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one.
> Would
> > anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on
> water
> > with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their
sea
> > worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I
would
> love
> > to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to
> build
> > one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than
motoring,
> but
> > all opinions would be most appreciated.
> >
>
Thanks very much to all who responded to my query. If anyone wants to
add more, please do, I'm not sending this to close the topic, just to
extend appreciation. I did join the openboat group as suggested and
have searched the messages somewhat, though yahoo's search engine was
only spitting out 2 or 3 messages at a time, in classic form. I'll
search it more later.
Bruce Hallman wrote:
add more, please do, I'm not sending this to close the topic, just to
extend appreciation. I did join the openboat group as suggested and
have searched the messages somewhat, though yahoo's search engine was
only spitting out 2 or 3 messages at a time, in classic form. I'll
search it more later.
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>>Round sided dories are a somewhat different breed of cat than the traditional banks
>>If you're interested in a Swampscot type dory, there is the Bolger ...
>>
>>
>
>I guess that the Bolger 'Cartoon 5' is pretty close to the same lines as
>a Swampscott type dory, I built and own one. Yes, indeed, it is plenty
>stable, and of my fleet :) of personal boats, it is my favorite rowboat.
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/113283335/
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
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>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
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>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
Interesting discussion re the seaworthiness of the dory design.
I have no personal expertise. I have observed the dory hull design
being used in larger boats intended for cruising.
Here are a couple of examples.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1976_January_February/Hina__We
_Built_a_Live_on_Boat_for__300_
http://www.georgebuehler.com/Pilgrim.html
Hina is a sailing boat, and Pilgrim is powered w' a small auxilliary
sail, but both are clearly big dories. I won't comment on Mother
Earth News, but certainly George Buehler is a respected naval
architect. So there are some who find the dory hull suitable for
sailing and for extensive coastal cruising.
I have no personal expertise. I have observed the dory hull design
being used in larger boats intended for cruising.
Here are a couple of examples.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1976_January_February/Hina__We
_Built_a_Live_on_Boat_for__300_
http://www.georgebuehler.com/Pilgrim.html
Hina is a sailing boat, and Pilgrim is powered w' a small auxilliary
sail, but both are clearly big dories. I won't comment on Mother
Earth News, but certainly George Buehler is a respected naval
architect. So there are some who find the dory hull suitable for
sailing and for extensive coastal cruising.
> Round sided dories are a somewhat different breed of cat than the traditional banksI guess that the Bolger 'Cartoon 5' is pretty close to the same lines as
> If you're interested in a Swampscot type dory, there is the Bolger ...
a Swampscott type dory, I built and own one. Yes, indeed, it is plenty
stable, and of my fleet :) of personal boats, it is my favorite rowboat.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/113283335/
Round sided dories are a somewhat different breed of cat than the traditional banks dories. Banks dories were popular in the Atlantic fisheries because a) they could carry a huge load, b) were relatively seaworthy when laoded, and c) could be stacked neatly.
For alongshore work, Dories became round sided and ecolved into Swampscott dories and a variation, the gunning dory. These boats have much more initial stability. Get a copy of John Garners The Dory Book for a scholorly study of various dory types.
I have hands on experience with two round bottomed dories. The first was a gunning dory which a rented from an outfit in southern Connecticut that was renting various traditional boats about 25 years ago. I believe it was built to the plans in The Dory Book and it was pleasant and comfortable to row in calm water. I was able to move around in it without any sudden lurches.
I built a PCB Sweet Pea which Payson calls a Pea Pod, but whose lines are much closer to a gunning dory than a Pea Pod. Mine rowed easily and handled large, confused motorboat wakes without any problems. A subsequent owner had her out in Charleston Harbor under a sprit sail in 15 to 20 mph wind and claims he was exhilerated, but not concerned. There are pictures in a WoodenBoat article which shows Payson rowing her while standing. It was certainly stable enough to be comfortable--not tiddly at all.
If you're interested in a Swampscot type dory, there is the Bolger Sweet Pea; Ian Oughtred dory plans are marketed by WoodenBoat; and I believe plans for Pete Culler's Dancing Feather are still available. Finally, I note that Roger Crawford (builder of the lovely fg Melon Seed) is now building a fg gunning dory.
John T
For alongshore work, Dories became round sided and ecolved into Swampscott dories and a variation, the gunning dory. These boats have much more initial stability. Get a copy of John Garners The Dory Book for a scholorly study of various dory types.
I have hands on experience with two round bottomed dories. The first was a gunning dory which a rented from an outfit in southern Connecticut that was renting various traditional boats about 25 years ago. I believe it was built to the plans in The Dory Book and it was pleasant and comfortable to row in calm water. I was able to move around in it without any sudden lurches.
I built a PCB Sweet Pea which Payson calls a Pea Pod, but whose lines are much closer to a gunning dory than a Pea Pod. Mine rowed easily and handled large, confused motorboat wakes without any problems. A subsequent owner had her out in Charleston Harbor under a sprit sail in 15 to 20 mph wind and claims he was exhilerated, but not concerned. There are pictures in a WoodenBoat article which shows Payson rowing her while standing. It was certainly stable enough to be comfortable--not tiddly at all.
If you're interested in a Swampscot type dory, there is the Bolger Sweet Pea; Ian Oughtred dory plans are marketed by WoodenBoat; and I believe plans for Pete Culler's Dancing Feather are still available. Finally, I note that Roger Crawford (builder of the lovely fg Melon Seed) is now building a fg gunning dory.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley Cox
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 8:16 PM
Subject: [bolger] dories, not necessarily 100% on bolger topic
I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one. Would
anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on water
with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would love
to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to build
one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring, but
all opinions would be most appreciated.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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To be fair, not all dories were designed to be deck-shipped, though
that was the practice with the schooner driven handlining practice.
Lots of dories were used for inshore fishing, hauling supplies, etc
and were not necessarily designed to be stacked. Some had some form
of sail, some not.
Bryant
that was the practice with the schooner driven handlining practice.
Lots of dories were used for inshore fishing, hauling supplies, etc
and were not necessarily designed to be stacked. Some had some form
of sail, some not.
Bryant
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> Also, dorys have the quality that they can be stored compactly in a
> stack so they can be carried easily on the deck of a fishing boat,
> from the harbor to the offshore fishing banks. An essential quality,
> if you need it, if not, other [sometime better] shaped boats become
> possible.
>
3/15/06, Wesley Cox>
I like dorys too, though they don't do everything well.
Fundamentally you should start by asking what you want the boat to do,
then research and choose a boat that does that task best.
Identify the task, then chose the boat.
...works better than...
Chose the boat, then fit it to the task.
BTW, Wikipedia has several articles about the different types of
dorys, an interesting read.
I like dorys too, though they don't do everything well.
Fundamentally you should start by asking what you want the boat to do,
then research and choose a boat that does that task best.
Identify the task, then chose the boat.
...works better than...
Chose the boat, then fit it to the task.
BTW, Wikipedia has several articles about the different types of
dorys, an interesting read.
Your ballast was just gear? Do you recall how high the seats were? I
understand the importance of keeping my own weight as low as possible,
but as I get older I find myself wanting boat seats no lower than is
necessary.
The camping and freedom you describe sounds wonderful. Maybe I can get
my wife to work harder and send me funds so I don't have the money
issues you had...
JJ Johnson wrote:
understand the importance of keeping my own weight as low as possible,
but as I get older I find myself wanting boat seats no lower than is
necessary.
The camping and freedom you describe sounds wonderful. Maybe I can get
my wife to work harder and send me funds so I don't have the money
issues you had...
JJ Johnson wrote:
>Years ago, when I was much younger, I took an extended vacation from
>the rat-race of the working world. I had a 24 foot Tomb-stone dory or
>as we called it the a grand-banks dory. I had fitted it with a crab-
>claw sail and a 3 hp British Seagull outboard for getting home when the
>wind died. The initial sea trials almost made me cut it into fire wood
>it was so tender. It never did throw me into the briny deep but it sure
>gave it a great try. Guess I was just lucky. Anyway a local "OLE' SALT"
>convienced me to give a try with ballast in the bottom. WOW, a totally
>different boat, fast under sail or power, very stable, and would almost
>make wind speed in a gentle breeze. I never took it out into blue water
>but I could have. I was crossing Matagorda Bay in South Texas and was
>caught by an early winter front with winds that seemed to be super
>sonic but were probably no more than 60 knots, out of the NW. The waves
>went from 1-2 feet to 5 - 6 ft chop in a matter of minutes, but my
>little dory took them in stride as if she had been just waiting to show
>off her stuff. The little boat never did scare me after she was loaded
>with gear. I spent 6 months enjoying freedom that is very scarce in
>todays world. If I had not run out of money I'd still be out there
>having a ball, enjoying the freedom GOD gave us but we have given away
>to to the time-clock. The only advice I'll give is; if you want a very
>sea worthy boat with a look that will turn heads every where you go,
>build a dory. Then try not to show off to much when the waether turns
>bad.
>
>Cheers
>JJ
>
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
>
>>I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
>>than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one.
>>
>>
>Would
>
>
>>anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on
>>
>>
>water
>
>
>>with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
>>worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would
>>
>>
>love
>
>
>>to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to
>>
>>
>build
>
>
>>one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring,
>>
>>
>but
>
>
>>all opinions would be most appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Noted :). I've seen the same effect with my own scale models. A single
chine boat flips the scale weight mini-me if "I" venture much from the
center line. A double chine boat of otherwise the same dimensions has
the problem much less.
Eric OHiggins wrote:
chine boat flips the scale weight mini-me if "I" venture much from the
center line. A double chine boat of otherwise the same dimensions has
the problem much less.
Eric OHiggins wrote:
> I built a Bolger Light Dory quick and dirty because
>I wanted a good-rowing boat really fast. It was a
>wonderful boat in many ways, but it did have some
>flaws.
> For reasons of abject stupidity I didn't double the
>bottom planking as the plans specified so the dory
>corkiness was exacerbated. It took me several weeks
>to train my backside NOT to try and hold the boat
>level -- it would roll to 15 degrees each side quicker
>than I could react and then head back the other way
>once it had buried enough of it chine. If I just sat
>there on the centreline like a bag of sand it looked
>after itself and floated over 2-3 foot beam seas like
>a gull.
> My neighbors who borrowed my boat thought it was a
>death-trap and complained far and wide. One famous
>toss-pot, old Down East Ian, took bets that he could
>row it standing up as if it was a peapod which it sure
>as heck wasn't.
> We all gathered on the day, put the money in a hat,
>and watched Ian row back and forth, a cigarette
>dangling from his lip and at least three sheets to the
>wind. But he surely could row a light dory standing
>up!
> Ian's dog Molly caught the excitement and swam out
>to the boat and lifted one paw to the gunnel
>amidships. The boat threw him right over the dog and
>into the water shouting, "No, Molly,no!"
> Somewhere, Bolger warns that a dory will throw you
>out and roll back upright without shipping a drop, and
>that's exactly what happened to Ian. Good news, as
>was the fact that we hadn't let Ian keep the money in
>HIS hat.
>
>
>--- Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've been fascinated a long time by dories,
>>multi-chine ones more so
>>than single chine, but have never used one or even
>>been in one. Would
>>anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone
>>transom dory on water
>>with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions
>>on their sea
>>worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're
>>great but I would love
>>to hear opinions from someone with experience before
>>deciding to build
>>one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more
>>than motoring, but
>>all opinions would be most appreciated.
>>
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thanks. Will do.
Jamie Orr wrote:
Jamie Orr wrote:
>Hi
>
>I don't have any direct experience in dories, but if you go to the
>Openboat group on Yahoo, there's someone called malcolmf who posts
>there. He has a fibreglass Swampscott (multichine) dory and can tell
>you all you want about rowing, sailing and cruising it. Searching the
>membership list will find him, or check recent posts.
>
>Good luck
>
>Jamie
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
>
>>I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
>>than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one.
>>
>>
>Would
>
>
>>anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on
>>
>>
>water
>
>
>>with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
>>worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would
>>
>>
>love
>
>
>>to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to
>>
>>
>build
>
>
>>one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring,
>>
>>
>but
>
>
>>all opinions would be most appreciated.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Years ago, when I was much younger, I took an extended vacation from
the rat-race of the working world. I had a 24 foot Tomb-stone dory or
as we called it the a grand-banks dory. I had fitted it with a crab-
claw sail and a 3 hp British Seagull outboard for getting home when the
wind died. The initial sea trials almost made me cut it into fire wood
it was so tender. It never did throw me into the briny deep but it sure
gave it a great try. Guess I was just lucky. Anyway a local "OLE' SALT"
convienced me to give a try with ballast in the bottom. WOW, a totally
different boat, fast under sail or power, very stable, and would almost
make wind speed in a gentle breeze. I never took it out into blue water
but I could have. I was crossing Matagorda Bay in South Texas and was
caught by an early winter front with winds that seemed to be super
sonic but were probably no more than 60 knots, out of the NW. The waves
went from 1-2 feet to 5 - 6 ft chop in a matter of minutes, but my
little dory took them in stride as if she had been just waiting to show
off her stuff. The little boat never did scare me after she was loaded
with gear. I spent 6 months enjoying freedom that is very scarce in
todays world. If I had not run out of money I'd still be out there
having a ball, enjoying the freedom GOD gave us but we have given away
to to the time-clock. The only advice I'll give is; if you want a very
sea worthy boat with a look that will turn heads every where you go,
build a dory. Then try not to show off to much when the waether turns
bad.
Cheers
JJ
the rat-race of the working world. I had a 24 foot Tomb-stone dory or
as we called it the a grand-banks dory. I had fitted it with a crab-
claw sail and a 3 hp British Seagull outboard for getting home when the
wind died. The initial sea trials almost made me cut it into fire wood
it was so tender. It never did throw me into the briny deep but it sure
gave it a great try. Guess I was just lucky. Anyway a local "OLE' SALT"
convienced me to give a try with ballast in the bottom. WOW, a totally
different boat, fast under sail or power, very stable, and would almost
make wind speed in a gentle breeze. I never took it out into blue water
but I could have. I was crossing Matagorda Bay in South Texas and was
caught by an early winter front with winds that seemed to be super
sonic but were probably no more than 60 knots, out of the NW. The waves
went from 1-2 feet to 5 - 6 ft chop in a matter of minutes, but my
little dory took them in stride as if she had been just waiting to show
off her stuff. The little boat never did scare me after she was loaded
with gear. I spent 6 months enjoying freedom that is very scarce in
todays world. If I had not run out of money I'd still be out there
having a ball, enjoying the freedom GOD gave us but we have given away
to to the time-clock. The only advice I'll give is; if you want a very
sea worthy boat with a look that will turn heads every where you go,
build a dory. Then try not to show off to much when the waether turns
bad.
Cheers
JJ
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
> I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
> than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one.
Would
> anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on
water
> with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
> worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would
love
> to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to
build
> one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring,
but
> all opinions would be most appreciated.
>
I built a Bolger Light Dory quick and dirty because
I wanted a good-rowing boat really fast. It was a
wonderful boat in many ways, but it did have some
flaws.
For reasons of abject stupidity I didn't double the
bottom planking as the plans specified so the dory
corkiness was exacerbated. It took me several weeks
to train my backside NOT to try and hold the boat
level -- it would roll to 15 degrees each side quicker
than I could react and then head back the other way
once it had buried enough of it chine. If I just sat
there on the centreline like a bag of sand it looked
after itself and floated over 2-3 foot beam seas like
a gull.
My neighbors who borrowed my boat thought it was a
death-trap and complained far and wide. One famous
toss-pot, old Down East Ian, took bets that he could
row it standing up as if it was a peapod which it sure
as heck wasn't.
We all gathered on the day, put the money in a hat,
and watched Ian row back and forth, a cigarette
dangling from his lip and at least three sheets to the
wind. But he surely could row a light dory standing
up!
Ian's dog Molly caught the excitement and swam out
to the boat and lifted one paw to the gunnel
amidships. The boat threw him right over the dog and
into the water shouting, "No, Molly,no!"
Somewhere, Bolger warns that a dory will throw you
out and roll back upright without shipping a drop, and
that's exactly what happened to Ian. Good news, as
was the fact that we hadn't let Ian keep the money in
HIS hat.
--- Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
I wanted a good-rowing boat really fast. It was a
wonderful boat in many ways, but it did have some
flaws.
For reasons of abject stupidity I didn't double the
bottom planking as the plans specified so the dory
corkiness was exacerbated. It took me several weeks
to train my backside NOT to try and hold the boat
level -- it would roll to 15 degrees each side quicker
than I could react and then head back the other way
once it had buried enough of it chine. If I just sat
there on the centreline like a bag of sand it looked
after itself and floated over 2-3 foot beam seas like
a gull.
My neighbors who borrowed my boat thought it was a
death-trap and complained far and wide. One famous
toss-pot, old Down East Ian, took bets that he could
row it standing up as if it was a peapod which it sure
as heck wasn't.
We all gathered on the day, put the money in a hat,
and watched Ian row back and forth, a cigarette
dangling from his lip and at least three sheets to the
wind. But he surely could row a light dory standing
up!
Ian's dog Molly caught the excitement and swam out
to the boat and lifted one paw to the gunnel
amidships. The boat threw him right over the dog and
into the water shouting, "No, Molly,no!"
Somewhere, Bolger warns that a dory will throw you
out and roll back upright without shipping a drop, and
that's exactly what happened to Ian. Good news, as
was the fact that we hadn't let Ian keep the money in
HIS hat.
--- Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
> I've been fascinated a long time by dories,__________________________________________________
> multi-chine ones more so
> than single chine, but have never used one or even
> been in one. Would
> anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone
> transom dory on water
> with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions
> on their sea
> worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're
> great but I would love
> to hear opinions from someone with experience before
> deciding to build
> one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more
> than motoring, but
> all opinions would be most appreciated.
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Hi
I don't have any direct experience in dories, but if you go to the
Openboat group on Yahoo, there's someone called malcolmf who posts
there. He has a fibreglass Swampscott (multichine) dory and can tell
you all you want about rowing, sailing and cruising it. Searching the
membership list will find him, or check recent posts.
Good luck
Jamie
I don't have any direct experience in dories, but if you go to the
Openboat group on Yahoo, there's someone called malcolmf who posts
there. He has a fibreglass Swampscott (multichine) dory and can tell
you all you want about rowing, sailing and cruising it. Searching the
membership list will find him, or check recent posts.
Good luck
Jamie
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Wesley Cox <inspirfe@...> wrote:
>
> I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
> than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one.
Would
> anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on
water
> with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
> worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would
love
> to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to
build
> one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring,
but
> all opinions would be most appreciated.
>
Also, dorys have the quality that they can be stored compactly in a
stack so they can be carried easily on the deck of a fishing boat,
from the harbor to the offshore fishing banks. An essential quality,
if you need it, if not, other [sometime better] shaped boats become
possible.
stack so they can be carried easily on the deck of a fishing boat,
from the harbor to the offshore fishing banks. An essential quality,
if you need it, if not, other [sometime better] shaped boats become
possible.
> with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their seaDory fans might tend to omit that, unless your weight is kept down
> worthiness?
>Everything I've read is that they're great
low, dories can be tender and prone to dumping you out. Also, as I
understand it, the big reason for the dory style of boat is for people
that need to carry heavy loads of cargo, [codfish, for instance]. A
fully loaded dory is very stable, an empty dory is tender and tippy.
I've been fascinated a long time by dories, multi-chine ones more so
than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one. Would
anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on water
with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would love
to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to build
one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring, but
all opinions would be most appreciated.
than single chine, but have never used one or even been in one. Would
anyone with first hand experience in a tombstone transom dory on water
with 2-3 foot chop (or bigger) care to give opinions on their sea
worthiness? Everything I've read is that they're great but I would love
to hear opinions from someone with experience before deciding to build
one. My interests lie with rowing and sailing more than motoring, but
all opinions would be most appreciated.
Hi Graeme
This looks like might work:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/islesdesign/swallowdale.html
"The hull form of the Swallowdale 15 is that of a traditional dory-
skiff and like all dory style boats is relatively narrow at the
waterline with very flared sides. The narrow waterline beam allows her
to row and sail easily while disturbing the water hardly at all. As
she begins to heel, however, the flaring sides increase the waterline
beam and stability quickly resulting in a degree of seaworthiness that
surprises many - one Swallowdale 15 owner revels in teasing his local
yacht club members by sailing her after they have retired "due to
weather".
This looks like might work:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/islesdesign/swallowdale.html
"The hull form of the Swallowdale 15 is that of a traditional dory-
skiff and like all dory style boats is relatively narrow at the
waterline with very flared sides. The narrow waterline beam allows her
to row and sail easily while disturbing the water hardly at all. As
she begins to heel, however, the flaring sides increase the waterline
beam and stability quickly resulting in a degree of seaworthiness that
surprises many - one Swallowdale 15 owner revels in teasing his local
yacht club members by sailing her after they have retired "due to
weather".
On 3/12/06, graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
which weights perhaps 70 pounds. But a 500 pound Camper
would not row as fast.
> Thanks for the info Doug. It seems what Jim Michalak says about3-4 mph is true for lightweight rowboats, like my Michalak 'Roar',
> rowable boats propelled by a single oarsman getting about 3-4mph in
> calm conditions without heroic athletic effort holds up. That should
> make for pleasant exercise. I'll have another look at Camper.
which weights perhaps 70 pounds. But a 500 pound Camper
would not row as fast.
I'm sure Bolger meant working Banks dories like were carried on fishing
schooners, heavily built boats with high sides intended to carry a big
load. Bolger's light dories are only very distantly related to Banks
dories. Rowing a Banks dory for recreationwould be like driving a truck
for fun. <g> Banks dories have narrow bottoms and get their load carrying
ability from their high flaring sides.
schooners, heavily built boats with high sides intended to carry a big
load. Bolger's light dories are only very distantly related to Banks
dories. Rowing a Banks dory for recreationwould be like driving a truck
for fun. <g> Banks dories have narrow bottoms and get their load carrying
ability from their high flaring sides.
On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 00:00:37 -0800, graeme wrote:
> ...
> Isn't the Light Dory Type a Banks Dory type? When he mentions
> masochism in regard to the Banks is he refering to tippiness, or to
> a wide fat bottom on a load carying, sea going, working kind?
> ...
--
John <jkohnen@...>
The only way to keep your health is to eat what you don't want, drink what
you don't like, and do what you'd rather not. <Mark Twain>
Thanks for the info Doug. It seems what Jim Michalak says about
rowable boats propelled by a single oarsman getting about 3-4mph in
calm conditions without heroic athletic effort holds up. That should
make for pleasant exercise. I'll have another look at Camper. Has
one been built?
I have just had a read of the Duckworks online sample MAIB and was
interested to read Bolger's thoughts on contemporary rowing and
rowboats and appreciate a little better why he might like to work a
rowing proposition into some of his sailboats,
"It's easy to forget nowadays how low recreational rowing sank 30
and 40 years ago. Even now it isn't appreciated as it should be.
The swarming comeback of kayaking is something to applaud, but a
good pulling boat can do a lot of things no kayak can. I wish,
though, that so much of rowing didn't revolve around competition and
exploits like ocean rowing. The beauty of rowing is that it can
lend itself to relaxation and tranquility. Perhaps as kayakers are
aging and the ability to just scratch your abused bottom or even
being able to relieve yourself without risking capsize becomes more
urgent, perhaps then rowboats of all flavors will again become
more commonplace.
Whether as plush and costly as Spur, or as portable as Spur II, or
as rapidly buildable as our Gloucester Light Dory, as long as you
can take your picnic, dog, and a friend or two with you, a one
manpower craft offers lots of opportunities for fun a memories. Read
Henry David Thoreau's A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers for
a quiet taste. No racing numbers here!And stay away from Banks
Dories and the like unless you are into masochism and want to make
sure none of your friends will ever want row again." p29 MAIB V21
#19; February 15, 2004;
Isn't the Light Dory Type a Banks Dory type? When he mentions
masochism in regard to the Banks is he refering to tippiness, or to
a wide fat bottom on a load carying, sea going, working kind?
Graeme
rowable boats propelled by a single oarsman getting about 3-4mph in
calm conditions without heroic athletic effort holds up. That should
make for pleasant exercise. I'll have another look at Camper. Has
one been built?
I have just had a read of the Duckworks online sample MAIB and was
interested to read Bolger's thoughts on contemporary rowing and
rowboats and appreciate a little better why he might like to work a
rowing proposition into some of his sailboats,
"It's easy to forget nowadays how low recreational rowing sank 30
and 40 years ago. Even now it isn't appreciated as it should be.
The swarming comeback of kayaking is something to applaud, but a
good pulling boat can do a lot of things no kayak can. I wish,
though, that so much of rowing didn't revolve around competition and
exploits like ocean rowing. The beauty of rowing is that it can
lend itself to relaxation and tranquility. Perhaps as kayakers are
aging and the ability to just scratch your abused bottom or even
being able to relieve yourself without risking capsize becomes more
urgent, perhaps then rowboats of all flavors will again become
more commonplace.
Whether as plush and costly as Spur, or as portable as Spur II, or
as rapidly buildable as our Gloucester Light Dory, as long as you
can take your picnic, dog, and a friend or two with you, a one
manpower craft offers lots of opportunities for fun a memories. Read
Henry David Thoreau's A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers for
a quiet taste. No racing numbers here!And stay away from Banks
Dories and the like unless you are into masochism and want to make
sure none of your friends will ever want row again." p29 MAIB V21
#19; February 15, 2004;
Isn't the Light Dory Type a Banks Dory type? When he mentions
masochism in regard to the Banks is he refering to tippiness, or to
a wide fat bottom on a load carying, sea going, working kind?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@...> wrote:
>
> I can row Birdwatcher 3 mph (by GPS) with discount store 7' oars,
for
> an hour at a time, not really working hard. This is in calm
water.
> Camper should not be much different.
>
> Doug
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would
allow
> > better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar.
These
> > boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low wind
conditions.
> > IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion to
Birdwatcher
> > etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches
(100
> > miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.
> >
> > How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
> > lengthy periods in good conditions?
> >
> > Graeme
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
> > <jtrussell2@> wrote:
> >
> > > Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper.
> >
>
What I know about Harbinger is a) she is very pretty and b) PCB wrote that she was intended to be sailed and rowd. I believe there was an article on using a Harbinger for open boat/dinghy cruising many years ago and at least one Harbinger has been strip built. I agree that catboats are a lot more boat than their length suggests and that Harbinger is a complicated project--much more complicated than an instant boat. It would make a pretty good row/sail cruiser and it is certainly pretty.....
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: baysidewoodenboats
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 5:38 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Instant Cruising Sailing Rowboat. Any for semi-protected water?
John,
I built a Bolger "Harbinger" a few years back for a local customer.
As she was to be a trailer boat, I suggested (with PCB's approval)
that she be built strip/diagonal from 7mm WRC strip followed by two
diagonal layers of 3mm Hoop Pine marine ply. That resulted in a hull
shell of a tiny fraction over 1/2 inch thickness.
"Harbinger" is a magnificant design, and is far more boat in three
dimensions than the plans suggest. Her performance under sail is
that of a thoroughbred - light on the tiller at normal angles of
heel, soft into a head sea, dry beyond anything I've experienced in
that size range, fast, and above all, beautiful.
However, she is a lot of boat - both to build and to trail. Also,
for anyone who thinks of building her, brush up on your lofting
skills - she has more beautiful curves than most, and she deserves
to be built properly.
In response to a request, I will be submitting a series of photos of
her (during and after construction) to Chuck and Sandra Leinweber's
Duckworks Magazine www.duckworksmagazine.com where a similar photo
series was recently published showing a pair of Bolger "Hope"s which
I built. I'm snowed under with work, and so it will be a little
while before I get the photos sorted.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> 1 Re instant sail row boats. Most instant boats are designed in
an envelope dictated by the 16 ft plank which results from butting
two 4x8 ft plywood panels together. This allows a 15 to15 1/2 ft
long boat. The "seaworthiness" of a boat this size is somewhat
limited.
>
> 2 In order to sail upwind, there must be enough form stability in
the hull shape to resist the heeling effect of the wind on the
sail. Boats with a very narrow water line (like a dory) simply do
not have this form stability. (Check out Paul Gartside's web site
(www.gartsideboats.com) and compare Flashboat and Bob to the row-
sail skiff #147 to see the difference.) I believe PCB's statement
was something very close to, "You can modify a dory to sail if you
want, but I'll have no part of it."
>
> 3 If you want to sail something that looks like a Dory, suggest
you look ar a Swampscott or Gunning dory. These combine the flat
dory bottom with round sides which provide the form stability to
sail. Examples include PCB's Sweet Pea (though if I built another, I
would abandon his "slipping keel" for a centerboard or daggerboard)
or Ian Oughtred's dories (plans from Woodenboat).
>
> 4 At some point, you have to decide if you want a boat which is a
rowing boat with sailing capabilities or a sailing boat with rowing
capabilities. IMHO, Camper falls in the latter category,
particularly for a single rower. I would guess that Camper rows
more easily than a Dovekie, but Dovekies aren't pulling boats. If
the wind dies and you are 2 to 3 miles from where you want to go,
you can get there in an hour or so, if you drop the mast (wind
resistance is significant) and raise the leeboards and rudder (drag
provided by these is major). All of this assumes you aren't bucking
a tide or current, and I note that nearly all Dovekies have
outboards these days.
>
> It is unfortunate that you are locked into stitch and glue
construction; PCB's Harbinger seems to be about what you think you
want, but is either carvel or strip planked.
>
> Have fun.
>
> John T
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: graeme19121984
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:13 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Instant Cruising Sailing Rowboat. Any for
semi-protected water?
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would
allow
> better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar.
These
> boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low wind
conditions.
> IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion to
Birdwatcher
> etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches
(100
> miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.
>
> How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
> lengthy periods in good conditions?
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
> <jtrussell2@> wrote:
>
> > Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Boating magazine Alaska outdoors Boating
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>
>
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>
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS Alaska outdoors Boating safety Boating magazine
Great outdoors
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
John,
I built a Bolger "Harbinger" a few years back for a local customer.
As she was to be a trailer boat, I suggested (with PCB's approval)
that she be built strip/diagonal from 7mm WRC strip followed by two
diagonal layers of 3mm Hoop Pine marine ply. That resulted in a hull
shell of a tiny fraction over 1/2 inch thickness.
"Harbinger" is a magnificant design, and is far more boat in three
dimensions than the plans suggest. Her performance under sail is
that of a thoroughbred - light on the tiller at normal angles of
heel, soft into a head sea, dry beyond anything I've experienced in
that size range, fast, and above all, beautiful.
However, she is a lot of boat - both to build and to trail. Also,
for anyone who thinks of building her, brush up on your lofting
skills - she has more beautiful curves than most, and she deserves
to be built properly.
In response to a request, I will be submitting a series of photos of
her (during and after construction) to Chuck and Sandra Leinweber's
Duckworks Magazine www.duckworksmagazine.com where a similar photo
series was recently published showing a pair of Bolger "Hope"s which
I built. I'm snowed under with work, and so it will be a little
while before I get the photos sorted.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
two 4x8 ft plywood panels together. This allows a 15 to15 1/2 ft
long boat. The "seaworthiness" of a boat this size is somewhat
limited.
sail. Boats with a very narrow water line (like a dory) simply do
not have this form stability. (Check out Paul Gartside's web site
(www.gartsideboats.com) and compare Flashboat and Bob to the row-
sail skiff #147 to see the difference.) I believe PCB's statement
was something very close to, "You can modify a dory to sail if you
want, but I'll have no part of it."
dory bottom with round sides which provide the form stability to
sail. Examples include PCB's Sweet Pea (though if I built another, I
would abandon his "slipping keel" for a centerboard or daggerboard)
or Ian Oughtred's dories (plans from Woodenboat).
capabilities. IMHO, Camper falls in the latter category,
particularly for a single rower. I would guess that Camper rows
more easily than a Dovekie, but Dovekies aren't pulling boats. If
the wind dies and you are 2 to 3 miles from where you want to go,
you can get there in an hour or so, if you drop the mast (wind
resistance is significant) and raise the leeboards and rudder (drag
provided by these is major). All of this assumes you aren't bucking
a tide or current, and I note that nearly all Dovekies have
outboards these days.
want, but is either carvel or strip planked.
I built a Bolger "Harbinger" a few years back for a local customer.
As she was to be a trailer boat, I suggested (with PCB's approval)
that she be built strip/diagonal from 7mm WRC strip followed by two
diagonal layers of 3mm Hoop Pine marine ply. That resulted in a hull
shell of a tiny fraction over 1/2 inch thickness.
"Harbinger" is a magnificant design, and is far more boat in three
dimensions than the plans suggest. Her performance under sail is
that of a thoroughbred - light on the tiller at normal angles of
heel, soft into a head sea, dry beyond anything I've experienced in
that size range, fast, and above all, beautiful.
However, she is a lot of boat - both to build and to trail. Also,
for anyone who thinks of building her, brush up on your lofting
skills - she has more beautiful curves than most, and she deserves
to be built properly.
In response to a request, I will be submitting a series of photos of
her (during and after construction) to Chuck and Sandra Leinweber's
Duckworks Magazine www.duckworksmagazine.com where a similar photo
series was recently published showing a pair of Bolger "Hope"s which
I built. I'm snowed under with work, and so it will be a little
while before I get the photos sorted.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>an envelope dictated by the 16 ft plank which results from butting
> 1 Re instant sail row boats. Most instant boats are designed in
two 4x8 ft plywood panels together. This allows a 15 to15 1/2 ft
long boat. The "seaworthiness" of a boat this size is somewhat
limited.
>the hull shape to resist the heeling effect of the wind on the
> 2 In order to sail upwind, there must be enough form stability in
sail. Boats with a very narrow water line (like a dory) simply do
not have this form stability. (Check out Paul Gartside's web site
(www.gartsideboats.com) and compare Flashboat and Bob to the row-
sail skiff #147 to see the difference.) I believe PCB's statement
was something very close to, "You can modify a dory to sail if you
want, but I'll have no part of it."
>you look ar a Swampscott or Gunning dory. These combine the flat
> 3 If you want to sail something that looks like a Dory, suggest
dory bottom with round sides which provide the form stability to
sail. Examples include PCB's Sweet Pea (though if I built another, I
would abandon his "slipping keel" for a centerboard or daggerboard)
or Ian Oughtred's dories (plans from Woodenboat).
>rowing boat with sailing capabilities or a sailing boat with rowing
> 4 At some point, you have to decide if you want a boat which is a
capabilities. IMHO, Camper falls in the latter category,
particularly for a single rower. I would guess that Camper rows
more easily than a Dovekie, but Dovekies aren't pulling boats. If
the wind dies and you are 2 to 3 miles from where you want to go,
you can get there in an hour or so, if you drop the mast (wind
resistance is significant) and raise the leeboards and rudder (drag
provided by these is major). All of this assumes you aren't bucking
a tide or current, and I note that nearly all Dovekies have
outboards these days.
>construction; PCB's Harbinger seems to be about what you think you
> It is unfortunate that you are locked into stitch and glue
want, but is either carvel or strip planked.
>semi-protected water?
> Have fun.
>
> John T
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: graeme19121984
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:13 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Instant Cruising Sailing Rowboat. Any for
>allow
>
> Hi John,
>
> I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would
> better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar.These
> boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low windconditions.
> IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion toBirdwatcher
> etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches(100
> miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.flogging dead horses
>
> How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
> lengthy periods in good conditions?
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
> <jtrussell2@> wrote:
>
> > Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper.
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snipaway
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.comsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-
>safety
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Boating magazine Alaska outdoors Boating
> Great outdoors-----------
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>3/8/2006
>
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> Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.1/277 - Release Date:
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
1 Re instant sail row boats. Most instant boats are designed in an envelope dictated by the 16 ft plank which results from butting two 4x8 ft plywood panels together. This allows a 15 to15 1/2 ft long boat. The "seaworthiness" of a boat this size is somewhat limited.
2 In order to sail upwind, there must be enough form stability in the hull shape to resist the heeling effect of the wind on the sail. Boats with a very narrow water line (like a dory) simply do not have this form stability. (Check out Paul Gartside's web site (www.gartsideboats.com) and compare Flashboat and Bob to the row-sail skiff #147 to see the difference.) I believe PCB's statement was something very close to, "You can modify a dory to sail if you want, but I'll have no part of it."
3 If you want to sail something that looks like a Dory, suggest you look ar a Swampscott or Gunning dory. These combine the flat dory bottom with round sides which provide the form stability to sail. Examples include PCB's Sweet Pea (though if I built another, I would abandon his "slipping keel" for a centerboard or daggerboard) or Ian Oughtred's dories (plans from Woodenboat).
4 At some point, you have to decide if you want a boat which is a rowing boat with sailing capabilities or a sailing boat with rowing capabilities. IMHO, Camper falls in the latter category, particularly for a single rower. I would guess that Camper rows more easily than a Dovekie, but Dovekies aren't pulling boats. If the wind dies and you are 2 to 3 miles from where you want to go, you can get there in an hour or so, if you drop the mast (wind resistance is significant) and raise the leeboards and rudder (drag provided by these is major). All of this assumes you aren't bucking a tide or current, and I note that nearly all Dovekies have outboards these days.
It is unfortunate that you are locked into stitch and glue construction; PCB's Harbinger seems to be about what you think you want, but is either carvel or strip planked.
Have fun.
John T
2 In order to sail upwind, there must be enough form stability in the hull shape to resist the heeling effect of the wind on the sail. Boats with a very narrow water line (like a dory) simply do not have this form stability. (Check out Paul Gartside's web site (www.gartsideboats.com) and compare Flashboat and Bob to the row-sail skiff #147 to see the difference.) I believe PCB's statement was something very close to, "You can modify a dory to sail if you want, but I'll have no part of it."
3 If you want to sail something that looks like a Dory, suggest you look ar a Swampscott or Gunning dory. These combine the flat dory bottom with round sides which provide the form stability to sail. Examples include PCB's Sweet Pea (though if I built another, I would abandon his "slipping keel" for a centerboard or daggerboard) or Ian Oughtred's dories (plans from Woodenboat).
4 At some point, you have to decide if you want a boat which is a rowing boat with sailing capabilities or a sailing boat with rowing capabilities. IMHO, Camper falls in the latter category, particularly for a single rower. I would guess that Camper rows more easily than a Dovekie, but Dovekies aren't pulling boats. If the wind dies and you are 2 to 3 miles from where you want to go, you can get there in an hour or so, if you drop the mast (wind resistance is significant) and raise the leeboards and rudder (drag provided by these is major). All of this assumes you aren't bucking a tide or current, and I note that nearly all Dovekies have outboards these days.
It is unfortunate that you are locked into stitch and glue construction; PCB's Harbinger seems to be about what you think you want, but is either carvel or strip planked.
Have fun.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: graeme19121984
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 2:13 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Instant Cruising Sailing Rowboat. Any for semi-protected water?
Hi John,
I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would allow
better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar. These
boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low wind conditions.
IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion to Birdwatcher
etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches (100
miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.
How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
lengthy periods in good conditions?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
> Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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I can row Birdwatcher 3 mph (by GPS) with discount store 7' oars, for
an hour at a time, not really working hard. This is in calm water.
Camper should not be much different.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
an hour at a time, not really working hard. This is in calm water.
Camper should not be much different.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would allow
> better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar. These
> boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low wind conditions.
> IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion to Birdwatcher
> etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches (100
> miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.
>
> How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
> lengthy periods in good conditions?
>
> Graeme
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
> <jtrussell2@> wrote:
>
> > Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper.
>
Hi John,
I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would allow
better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar. These
boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low wind conditions.
IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion to Birdwatcher
etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches (100
miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.
How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
lengthy periods in good conditions?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
I think Camper primarily is a sailboat. The two rowers would allow
better going under oars than Birdwatcher, Anhinga, and similar. These
boats, I'm sure, can manouvre well under oars in low wind conditions.
IIRC a builder of Centennial ll, similar in proportion to Birdwatcher
etc, reported that he rowed her for some quite lengthy stretches (100
miles, or so?) at around 2kts in good conditions.
How fast do you think a single oarsman could propel Camper, for
lengthy periods in good conditions?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
> Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper.
I think this one would be good in semi-protected water, and got the
plans, but like Michalak I don't know that you would really want to
row her far. She is a sailboat that could be rowed. She has a narrow
dory-like bottom plank, but may be too heavy, wide, and subject to too
much windage. However, she will take more crew, and you could take
turns to row.
Graeme
plans, but like Michalak I don't know that you would really want to
row her far. She is a sailboat that could be rowed. She has a narrow
dory-like bottom plank, but may be too heavy, wide, and subject to too
much windage. However, she will take more crew, and you could take
turns to row.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> Another interesting design is here:
>
>http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/new.cfm
>
> and cursor down to the "Oaracle Upgrades" link.
Doug,
she was built. I think a picture of her rigged without crew moored on
the water is posted in one of the groups someplace. Reported to be
lively and wet. At the time there were some comments how high she sat
in the water and whether or not she might be sitting on a snag, or
whether she needed ballast. It maybe she just had so much rocker to
float her large crew. The rocker also lightly provided the necessary
mechanical advantage to fix the sponsons to. She could be sailed with
a reduced rig, but I think she would be labourious to row solo.
Perhaps she could be scaled down, or Peero could be scaled up with
sponsons.
Graeme
she was built. I think a picture of her rigged without crew moored on
the water is posted in one of the groups someplace. Reported to be
lively and wet. At the time there were some comments how high she sat
in the water and whether or not she might be sitting on a snag, or
whether she needed ballast. It maybe she just had so much rocker to
float her large crew. The rocker also lightly provided the necessary
mechanical advantage to fix the sponsons to. She could be sailed with
a reduced rig, but I think she would be labourious to row solo.
Perhaps she could be scaled down, or Peero could be scaled up with
sponsons.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@...> wrote:
> The narrow rowing hull with sponsons for power to carry sail has
>been done (at least designed) before. See the Gloucester Yawl in
>Small Boats, p48. It was designed for a large crew with 21' LOA,
>but the concept might scale down acceptably.
>Doug
I'm not sure what you are envisioning as a rowing/sailing dory with
outriggers, but if you are imagining the oars going over the amas, I have
some experience with that. I had an outrigger canoe, 14' long, with just
one outrigger and rowed it with 9' 9"oars with a 5' spread between oarlocks.
The overall beam of the whole boat was 5'. The oar on the outrigger side
was held by a fore and aft piece of wood between the crossarms, and the one
on the other side was on a frame that extended out over the water. The ama
(outrigger float) was small and low to the water, about 6" wide and 6" tall,
flat bottomed, with about 2" in the water. The crossarms were spread about
7' apart. The oar just grazed across the top of the ama when the blade was
in the water. The main hull was only 14" wide. If you made a dory into a
trimaran like this, your overall beam would be about 9' which should give
you good stability for sailing, but the amas have to be close to the water
where the oar sweeps over them. This paricular outrigger was V bottom
which gave good directional stability, so it rowed pretty well for being
assymetrical. I used a sliding seat.
Gary
outriggers, but if you are imagining the oars going over the amas, I have
some experience with that. I had an outrigger canoe, 14' long, with just
one outrigger and rowed it with 9' 9"oars with a 5' spread between oarlocks.
The overall beam of the whole boat was 5'. The oar on the outrigger side
was held by a fore and aft piece of wood between the crossarms, and the one
on the other side was on a frame that extended out over the water. The ama
(outrigger float) was small and low to the water, about 6" wide and 6" tall,
flat bottomed, with about 2" in the water. The crossarms were spread about
7' apart. The oar just grazed across the top of the ama when the blade was
in the water. The main hull was only 14" wide. If you made a dory into a
trimaran like this, your overall beam would be about 9' which should give
you good stability for sailing, but the amas have to be close to the water
where the oar sweeps over them. This paricular outrigger was V bottom
which gave good directional stability, so it rowed pretty well for being
assymetrical. I used a sliding seat.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
> At HHPayson & Co's home page there is a link to Dynamite Payson that
> shows a picture of him in profile rowing a Gloucester Gull Dory
> just at the commencement of the recovery stroke. It seems that
> outrigger beams would not interfere with the oars:
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@...> wrote:http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger5/photos/view/4db5?b=1
>
> I built a Dolphin as a pure rowboat back in the 80's. I posted a
>picture of it in Bolger 5 photos,
> It was built of 3/8" Airex foam, glass and epoxy and weighed aboutHi Gary,
>100 lbs.....
thanks for sharing that picture of Dolphin it gives me a much better
appreciation of her lines. Very nice boat. Bolger said she would
have good capacity for up to four or five and I can see the space.
Wow, two people would put her at her designed line yet you saved
300lbs off her designed weight.
> I like the idea of the dory with an outrigger, but what would youI'm not at all sure. I can't do the numbers for this, just thought
>do with the outrigger if you want to switch to rowing when the wind
>dies? Would it be small enough to bring aboard? How about a double
>outrigger with the amas both out of the water when the boat is
>level.
experiment, so if possible I'd like to know if it's been tried
before. I guess I'd look up some figures such as how much power
would be needed to drive the hull around S/L=1 (4kts?), work out the
minimum sail size for around 10kts windspeed, the heeling force, and
so roughly the displacement of the floats required to counter that
(but not to fly the hull!). I'd have to build a test bed and try
various things. For instance the outriggers might present so little
water resistance that they could be left deployed when rowing. On
the other hand if rowing other than across wind they might present
too much wind resistance when deployed.
>Actuallly they could be more like sponsons, close to the hull, withPerhaps in rougher water you could have the "sponsons" in close, and
>the oarlocks on them, at about 5' beam over all, catch you if you
>heel too far, and make a hiking seat for sailing to help keep the
>boat level. It is something I'd like to try some day.
in smother water you could have them out ( I can imagine certain
steep waves so out of phase with the extended float in wind against
current situations that taken on the beam the hull may be rolled too
deeply.).
>You could call it "Sacrilege". It's a good thing in Bolger'sI like that.
>world. ;-)
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
a very good design for sailing. The bottom is just too narrow. And
almost any other alternative is not really off-shore capable.
Here is one I have admired that comes close:
http://www.clcboats.com/boats/skerry.php
Nels
wrote:
> Thanks Nels.I agree with you on both points. I really don't think a rowing dory is
> I think the CSD 16' Pirogue may be limited to protected waters only.
> I had thought of her, even got the plans from PCB, as I'd been
> thoroughly warned off by his various remarks about sailing a rowing
> (or any?) dory.
>
a very good design for sailing. The bottom is just too narrow. And
almost any other alternative is not really off-shore capable.
Here is one I have admired that comes close:
http://www.clcboats.com/boats/skerry.php
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
I think the CSD 16' Pirogue may be limited to protected waters only.
I had thought of her, even got the plans from PCB, as I'd been
thoroughly warned off by his various remarks about sailing a rowing
(or any?) dory.
I'm not so sure now he's been so adamant on that point. He may be
more concerned with forestalling cricism from those who would expect
a sailing performance different to what the simple dory shape
delivers.
He has designed a sailing version for a commercial builder of his
rowing dory type. PCB was pleased with its performance, but
potential buyers were not pleased with her looks, nor heel under
sail, nor the added cost to rig for sail. He later came out with
Featherwind, then Surf (etc), as the sailing type optimised for that
public, and amateur builders.
Other designers have added sailing (and motor) rigs to his light
dory type, with results displeasing to Bolger, though he suggests
that one with a very small lugsail and an oar for lateral resistance
may be the way to go (without his involvement). He notes on the plan
for the Stretched Light Dory (available from HHP) that, without his
cooperation, it is possible to rig to sail. I think he may be
implying that her extra length may provide enough stiffness for a
small sail.
His own design used the usual sailing rig, but relied on a widened
bottom and heavy steel centreboard, and other changes, for
stiffness. Why not use outriggers? They're light, dont clutter the
inside, and could easily provide sufficient stiffness for a larger
sail resulting in better sailing when wanted. There should be an
optimal arrangement so as to least interfere with the rowing.
At HHPayson & Co's home page there is a link to Dynamite Payson that
shows a picture of him in profile rowing a Gloucester Gull Dory
just at the commencement of the recovery stroke. It seems that
outrigger beams would not interfere with the oars:
http://www.instantboats.com/dynamite.htm
http://www.instantboats.com/images/whead600.jpg
The stretched dory under sail would likely go faster, easier, but
how would a solo oarsperson feel about an extended row in her
compared to the regular size. For instance does increased windage
present too much difficulty?
PCB has designed a number of proas, trimarans, and catamarans, some
with v-ed hulls and some flat bottomed, for the most part, AFAIK,
primarily for sail propulsion.
Graeme
> ...You might consider.. the CSD Piroque...Thanks Nels.
I think the CSD 16' Pirogue may be limited to protected waters only.
I had thought of her, even got the plans from PCB, as I'd been
thoroughly warned off by his various remarks about sailing a rowing
(or any?) dory.
I'm not so sure now he's been so adamant on that point. He may be
more concerned with forestalling cricism from those who would expect
a sailing performance different to what the simple dory shape
delivers.
He has designed a sailing version for a commercial builder of his
rowing dory type. PCB was pleased with its performance, but
potential buyers were not pleased with her looks, nor heel under
sail, nor the added cost to rig for sail. He later came out with
Featherwind, then Surf (etc), as the sailing type optimised for that
public, and amateur builders.
Other designers have added sailing (and motor) rigs to his light
dory type, with results displeasing to Bolger, though he suggests
that one with a very small lugsail and an oar for lateral resistance
may be the way to go (without his involvement). He notes on the plan
for the Stretched Light Dory (available from HHP) that, without his
cooperation, it is possible to rig to sail. I think he may be
implying that her extra length may provide enough stiffness for a
small sail.
His own design used the usual sailing rig, but relied on a widened
bottom and heavy steel centreboard, and other changes, for
stiffness. Why not use outriggers? They're light, dont clutter the
inside, and could easily provide sufficient stiffness for a larger
sail resulting in better sailing when wanted. There should be an
optimal arrangement so as to least interfere with the rowing.
At HHPayson & Co's home page there is a link to Dynamite Payson that
shows a picture of him in profile rowing a Gloucester Gull Dory
just at the commencement of the recovery stroke. It seems that
outrigger beams would not interfere with the oars:
http://www.instantboats.com/dynamite.htm
http://www.instantboats.com/images/whead600.jpg
The stretched dory under sail would likely go faster, easier, but
how would a solo oarsperson feel about an extended row in her
compared to the regular size. For instance does increased windage
present too much difficulty?
PCB has designed a number of proas, trimarans, and catamarans, some
with v-ed hulls and some flat bottomed, for the most part, AFAIK,
primarily for sail propulsion.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
or less "capsize proof". IMOH, it would be a more useful boat
without the railings shown and with a slightly less complex glass
house shape, but those are personal choice. Whether you want to
row from inside the cabin in warm weather (Camper was designed for
cruising on the cool, often rainy waters of Puget Sound) is another
matter, but Camper offers more seaworthiness than you are likely to
find in an open boat, and the shelter and dry sleeping space are
attractive.
It does include a boom vang strut and an anti-slap bow anc cathead
like BWII and a few other refinements. I posted a couple of
additional illustrations at the cartoons location. Complete write-up
in BDQ #47 I think.
This enclosure would be hot rowing in a humid tropical climate and
no wind I would guess.
Nels
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>is a flat iron skiff with a Birdwatcher cabin which renders it more
> Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper. Camper
or less "capsize proof". IMOH, it would be a more useful boat
without the railings shown and with a slightly less complex glass
house shape, but those are personal choice. Whether you want to
row from inside the cabin in warm weather (Camper was designed for
cruising on the cool, often rainy waters of Puget Sound) is another
matter, but Camper offers more seaworthiness than you are likely to
find in an open boat, and the shelter and dry sleeping space are
attractive.
>Camper plans were upgraded in 2004 and no longer show the railings:-)
It does include a boom vang strut and an anti-slap bow anc cathead
like BWII and a few other refinements. I posted a couple of
additional illustrations at the cartoons location. Complete write-up
in BDQ #47 I think.
This enclosure would be hot rowing in a humid tropical climate and
no wind I would guess.
Nels
Another PCB design which combines oars and sail is Camper. Camper is a flat iron skiff with a Birdwatcher cabin which renders it more or less "capsize proof". IMOH, it would be a more useful boat without the railings shown and with a slightly less complex glass house shape, but those are personal choice. Whether you want to row from inside the cabin in warm weather (Camper was designed for cruising on the cool, often rainy waters of Puget Sound) is another matter, but Camper offers more seaworthiness than you are likely to find in an open boat, and the shelter and dry sleeping space are attractive.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Nels
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 4:24 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Instant Cruisung Sailing Rowboat. Any for semi-protected water?
Another interesting design is here:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/new.cfm
and cursor down to the "Oaracle Upgrades" link.
This boat is currently involved in the Everglades Challenge race,
with Chuck the Duck and Gary Blankenship crewing.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@...> wrote:
>
> The narrow rowing hull with sponsons for power to carry sail has
been
> done (at least designed) before. See the Gloucester Yawl in Small
> Boats, p48. It was designed for a large crew with 21' LOA, but the
> concept might scale down acceptably.
>
> Doug
>
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.2/274 - Release Date: 3/3/2006
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Another interesting design is here:
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/new.cfm
and cursor down to the "Oaracle Upgrades" link.
This boat is currently involved in the Everglades Challenge race,
with Chuck the Duck and Gary Blankenship crewing.
Nels
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/new.cfm
and cursor down to the "Oaracle Upgrades" link.
This boat is currently involved in the Everglades Challenge race,
with Chuck the Duck and Gary Blankenship crewing.
Nels
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "oarmandt" <oarman89@...> wrote:
>
> The narrow rowing hull with sponsons for power to carry sail has
been
> done (at least designed) before. See the Gloucester Yawl in Small
> Boats, p48. It was designed for a large crew with 21' LOA, but the
> concept might scale down acceptably.
>
> Doug
>
The narrow rowing hull with sponsons for power to carry sail has been
done (at least designed) before. See the Gloucester Yawl in Small
Boats, p48. It was designed for a large crew with 21' LOA, but the
concept might scale down acceptably.
Doug
done (at least designed) before. See the Gloucester Yawl in Small
Boats, p48. It was designed for a large crew with 21' LOA, but the
concept might scale down acceptably.
Doug
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Lepak" <gnjlepak@...> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of the dory with an outrigger, but what would you do
with
> the outrigger if you want to switch to rowing when the wind dies?
Would it
> be small enough to bring aboard? How about a double outrigger with
the
> amas both out of the water when the boat is level. Actuallly they
could be
> more like sponsons, close to the hull, with the oarlocks on them, at
about
> 5' beam over all, catch you if you heel too far, and make a hiking
seat for
> sailing to help keep the boat level. It is something I'd like to
try some
> day. You could call it "Sacrilege". It's a good thing in Bolger's
world.
> ;-)
> Gary
> Port Angeles, WA, USA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
> . I do have Small Boats though, and a "non-
> > instant" boat there that may suit is Dolphin. Borderline for
> > a sole oarsperson, however a first-class surfboat for two.
>
I built a Dolphin as a pure rowboat back in the 80's. I posted a picture of
it in Bolger 5 photos,
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger5/photos/view/4db5?b=1
It was built of 3/8" Airex foam, glass and epoxy and weighed about 100 lbs.
It was so light we had to carry a water jug to balance a single oarsman. It
rowed great with two, either together or taking turns. It had a huge
capacity and would probably make a good camp cruiser, but of course was time
consuming to build, requiring lofting and building a male mold. I think it
would make a good sailboat with a small stowable rig, sprit or lug, kickup
rudder and leeboard. We rowed it in the San Juan Islands of the Pacific
Northwest and San Francisco bay.
I like the idea of the dory with an outrigger, but what would you do with
the outrigger if you want to switch to rowing when the wind dies? Would it
be small enough to bring aboard? How about a double outrigger with the
amas both out of the water when the boat is level. Actuallly they could be
more like sponsons, close to the hull, with the oarlocks on them, at about
5' beam over all, catch you if you heel too far, and make a hiking seat for
sailing to help keep the boat level. It is something I'd like to try some
day. You could call it "Sacrilege". It's a good thing in Bolger's world.
;-)
Gary
Port Angeles, WA, USA
it in Bolger 5 photos,
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger5/photos/view/4db5?b=1
It was built of 3/8" Airex foam, glass and epoxy and weighed about 100 lbs.
It was so light we had to carry a water jug to balance a single oarsman. It
rowed great with two, either together or taking turns. It had a huge
capacity and would probably make a good camp cruiser, but of course was time
consuming to build, requiring lofting and building a male mold. I think it
would make a good sailboat with a small stowable rig, sprit or lug, kickup
rudder and leeboard. We rowed it in the San Juan Islands of the Pacific
Northwest and San Francisco bay.
I like the idea of the dory with an outrigger, but what would you do with
the outrigger if you want to switch to rowing when the wind dies? Would it
be small enough to bring aboard? How about a double outrigger with the
amas both out of the water when the boat is level. Actuallly they could be
more like sponsons, close to the hull, with the oarlocks on them, at about
5' beam over all, catch you if you heel too far, and make a hiking seat for
sailing to help keep the boat level. It is something I'd like to try some
day. You could call it "Sacrilege". It's a good thing in Bolger's world.
;-)
Gary
Port Angeles, WA, USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
. I do have Small Boats though, and a "non-
> instant" boat there that may suit is Dolphin. Borderline for
> a sole oarsperson, however a first-class surfboat for two.
The absolutely crucial spec here is for a Rowboat that may be
satisfactorily sailed. Conversely, plenty of Sailboats, small and
large, can be moved along by oar with more or less difficulty, if
necessary, and if conditions permit.
I'm still looking for a copy of Different Boats, Peter, though I
think in one of the Bolger groups there is a file on Felucca and
I'll have to search for it. I do have Small Boats though, and a "non-
instant" boat there that may suit is Dolphin. Borderline for
a sole oarsperson, however a first-class surfboat for two. She
can sail, and PCB's comments are spot on (pp43 & 44) about the
design trade-offs of rowing and sailing, especially where he says
the least concession made that works against rowing will lose her as
a pleasant rowing boat (not surprising for someone who has rowing
ethics). When rowing the boat has to glide, and this may go against
the Japanese Beachcruiser, probably meant to be rowed only a short
way while traversing the shore boundary, and done standing. The
Navigator is a capable sailing dinghy cruiser, perhaps more for
rowing is the Walkabout. There are lots of designs out there no
doubt. Contemporary ones and those from the past, and in all degrees
of construction complexity. I'd like to keep it very simple; and if
at all possible even relatively instant.
May I raise a proposition? Warning, some may think it sacrilege. In
order to fit a sail to a light dory could not an outrigger also be
fitted to provide high form stability? Remember, this is for semi-
protected water. The dory would lose the seakeeping ability it
derives from its great ability to pitch and roll, but the flare and
high ends should keep her fairly dry. The outrigger float would have
little resistance, and, as per PCB regarding Dolphin, an unshipped
clip-on or pivoting lee-board would leave the dory hull with only
her inherent resistance. Gunnels could be beefed up and so the
centre thwart removed to allow a lie down.
Lots of canoe designs have done this, but they are paddle sailed. I
don't think I've ever seen a design offered that has these
attributes in a slender rowing boat, perhaps it's a cultural thing.
It could be demountable, and car topped. Long Dory might provide
better placement for the outrigger beams without them needing to be
right at the ends to clear the working oars. This positioning some
way in from the ends gives wider spread athwartships of the
fastening points across the gunnels allowing a stronger coupling.
Graeme
satisfactorily sailed. Conversely, plenty of Sailboats, small and
large, can be moved along by oar with more or less difficulty, if
necessary, and if conditions permit.
I'm still looking for a copy of Different Boats, Peter, though I
think in one of the Bolger groups there is a file on Felucca and
I'll have to search for it. I do have Small Boats though, and a "non-
instant" boat there that may suit is Dolphin. Borderline for
a sole oarsperson, however a first-class surfboat for two. She
can sail, and PCB's comments are spot on (pp43 & 44) about the
design trade-offs of rowing and sailing, especially where he says
the least concession made that works against rowing will lose her as
a pleasant rowing boat (not surprising for someone who has rowing
ethics). When rowing the boat has to glide, and this may go against
the Japanese Beachcruiser, probably meant to be rowed only a short
way while traversing the shore boundary, and done standing. The
Navigator is a capable sailing dinghy cruiser, perhaps more for
rowing is the Walkabout. There are lots of designs out there no
doubt. Contemporary ones and those from the past, and in all degrees
of construction complexity. I'd like to keep it very simple; and if
at all possible even relatively instant.
May I raise a proposition? Warning, some may think it sacrilege. In
order to fit a sail to a light dory could not an outrigger also be
fitted to provide high form stability? Remember, this is for semi-
protected water. The dory would lose the seakeeping ability it
derives from its great ability to pitch and roll, but the flare and
high ends should keep her fairly dry. The outrigger float would have
little resistance, and, as per PCB regarding Dolphin, an unshipped
clip-on or pivoting lee-board would leave the dory hull with only
her inherent resistance. Gunnels could be beefed up and so the
centre thwart removed to allow a lie down.
Lots of canoe designs have done this, but they are paddle sailed. I
don't think I've ever seen a design offered that has these
attributes in a slender rowing boat, perhaps it's a cultural thing.
It could be demountable, and car topped. Long Dory might provide
better placement for the outrigger beams without them needing to be
right at the ends to clear the working oars. This positioning some
way in from the ends gives wider spread athwartships of the
fastening points across the gunnels allowing a stronger coupling.
Graeme
As a way of getting a handle on the possible and the impossible, take
a look at the PCB "non-instant" designs for this spec. I think the
best fit is the Prince William Sound Yawl in Different Boats. The
cold-molded construction lets the boat have some really nice features
such as the combination of flat bottom and easy entrance. The Felucca
in the following chapter is also worth a look, but I think I remember
some reports of sea trials that would not encourage me to take her
out in a seaway.
Another boat definitely intended for the sort of use you describe is
the Japanese Beach Cruiser (BWAOM). Once you get past the idea of the
pram bow, you can see she should do quite well. The construction,
though not instant, should be quickish.
One more design to look at for inspiration is John Welsford's
Navigator. Under sail, and for camping, this is very much the boat
you want, but it's worth noting that most owners fit an outboard and
the construction is complex, though accessbile for beginners. It
shows have far a real beach cruiser is from a light rowboat.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/navigator/index.htm
a look at the PCB "non-instant" designs for this spec. I think the
best fit is the Prince William Sound Yawl in Different Boats. The
cold-molded construction lets the boat have some really nice features
such as the combination of flat bottom and easy entrance. The Felucca
in the following chapter is also worth a look, but I think I remember
some reports of sea trials that would not encourage me to take her
out in a seaway.
Another boat definitely intended for the sort of use you describe is
the Japanese Beach Cruiser (BWAOM). Once you get past the idea of the
pram bow, you can see she should do quite well. The construction,
though not instant, should be quickish.
One more design to look at for inspiration is John Welsford's
Navigator. Under sail, and for camping, this is very much the boat
you want, but it's worth noting that most owners fit an outboard and
the construction is complex, though accessbile for beginners. It
shows have far a real beach cruiser is from a light rowboat.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/navigator/index.htm
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
You might consider contacting Steve Hansen and get his impressions
of the CSD Piroque which became one of his favorite boats for
messing about in. He stretched the design to 19'6" and rowed it with
9' oars.
The plans are complete with simple out-riggers for rowing, as well
as a small sail plan, rudder and leeboard. It can also be paddled
with either a single or double paddle. He also used an electric
motor. Of course it does not plane.
http://www.belljar.net/wilywater.htm
Photo of one sailing with two aboard. In the files section in CSD
16' Pirogue
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CSD%2016%27%20Pirogue/
Nels
wrote:
>Hi Graeme,
> A good "instant" sailing rowboat for touring and semi-protected
> waters? Mainly solo, quick to launch, easy to transport, some
> overnighting. "Sweet Pea", or "Gypsy"?
>
You might consider contacting Steve Hansen and get his impressions
of the CSD Piroque which became one of his favorite boats for
messing about in. He stretched the design to 19'6" and rowed it with
9' oars.
The plans are complete with simple out-riggers for rowing, as well
as a small sail plan, rudder and leeboard. It can also be paddled
with either a single or double paddle. He also used an electric
motor. Of course it does not plane.
http://www.belljar.net/wilywater.htm
Photo of one sailing with two aboard. In the files section in CSD
16' Pirogue
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CSD%2016%27%20Pirogue/
Nels
Hi Peter,
thanks for your thoughts on this. Bolger says it's easier to start
with a sailboat and add oars than to start with a rowboat and rig it
for sail. The oars aren't a lot to carry in the sailboat and so the
sailing performance doesn't suffer, but the wide bottom may make
rowing a drag. I don't necessarily want nor expect a rowboat that's
not a drag under oars to perform under sail anywhere near as good as
a good sailboat (or powerboat), but I would expect her to speed up a
little under sail. I think asking for this kind of perfomance of a
boat in rougher semi-protected waters is a much greater demand than
the same requirement for smoother protected water. Furthermore,
going for a bit of a cruise and overnighting asks for a lot more
such as seaworthiness, stowage and a sleep spot. PCB has many
designs that may be considered for the latter if the requirement for
her to be pleasurable and sustain, say 3mph, for a few hours under
oars is removed. It is a big ask of a simple boat. One I think can
handle it with a few small mods such as extra floatation, and
increased lateral plane is Sweet Pea. She wouldn't plane but the
sailing would be purposeful and pleasant I expect.
Planing sailing performance can be wrung from the lightly built
Gypsy, but as you say it is not comfortable as she planes on her
bilge strake, and this would likely not be wanted on a
rowing/sailing cruise. She would be loaded more and sailed more
conservatively. Her good performance under oars is what sets her
apart, and handled conservatively she might give a relatively dry
ride.
Drier than Thomaston Galley which PCB says is a nasty business
rowing to windward in open water. He says she is strictly for
protected water though can be trimmed to handle a "tolerable" chop.
I agree with you when you say "She also has an open interior... she
has about the best hull shape for what you describe. You could give
her some decking forward, and build one seat on the rail if you
wanted to do some customization. If so, you might want to think
about a rig with a mast more easily stepped and struck..." With
these mods she may well equal a modified Gypsy. (By the way, rowboat
designs of Jim Michalak, like Robote, have very nearly the same
waterline width as TG yet he says they are too narrow for added
sail. A rig with a low centre of effort may do, and their plumb
sides would make modifications like decking and increased freeboard
easy.)
The V-bottom cat boat was Cartoon 40, see BolgerCartoons. PCB
suggested 12' oars wuld be best if their stowing could be figured. I
think rowing might not be pleasureable, but PCB didn't think there
would be too many times when it would not be under sail.
Some do dinghy cruise D4s sabots and the like, and the Cartopper
could be adapted I'm sure. However, she may be a little slow under
oars. Joe Henry designed Flaquita in part to get more speed than his
Cartopper gave.
cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
thanks for your thoughts on this. Bolger says it's easier to start
with a sailboat and add oars than to start with a rowboat and rig it
for sail. The oars aren't a lot to carry in the sailboat and so the
sailing performance doesn't suffer, but the wide bottom may make
rowing a drag. I don't necessarily want nor expect a rowboat that's
not a drag under oars to perform under sail anywhere near as good as
a good sailboat (or powerboat), but I would expect her to speed up a
little under sail. I think asking for this kind of perfomance of a
boat in rougher semi-protected waters is a much greater demand than
the same requirement for smoother protected water. Furthermore,
going for a bit of a cruise and overnighting asks for a lot more
such as seaworthiness, stowage and a sleep spot. PCB has many
designs that may be considered for the latter if the requirement for
her to be pleasurable and sustain, say 3mph, for a few hours under
oars is removed. It is a big ask of a simple boat. One I think can
handle it with a few small mods such as extra floatation, and
increased lateral plane is Sweet Pea. She wouldn't plane but the
sailing would be purposeful and pleasant I expect.
Planing sailing performance can be wrung from the lightly built
Gypsy, but as you say it is not comfortable as she planes on her
bilge strake, and this would likely not be wanted on a
rowing/sailing cruise. She would be loaded more and sailed more
conservatively. Her good performance under oars is what sets her
apart, and handled conservatively she might give a relatively dry
ride.
Drier than Thomaston Galley which PCB says is a nasty business
rowing to windward in open water. He says she is strictly for
protected water though can be trimmed to handle a "tolerable" chop.
I agree with you when you say "She also has an open interior... she
has about the best hull shape for what you describe. You could give
her some decking forward, and build one seat on the rail if you
wanted to do some customization. If so, you might want to think
about a rig with a mast more easily stepped and struck..." With
these mods she may well equal a modified Gypsy. (By the way, rowboat
designs of Jim Michalak, like Robote, have very nearly the same
waterline width as TG yet he says they are too narrow for added
sail. A rig with a low centre of effort may do, and their plumb
sides would make modifications like decking and increased freeboard
easy.)
The V-bottom cat boat was Cartoon 40, see BolgerCartoons. PCB
suggested 12' oars wuld be best if their stowing could be figured. I
think rowing might not be pleasureable, but PCB didn't think there
would be too many times when it would not be under sail.
Some do dinghy cruise D4s sabots and the like, and the Cartopper
could be adapted I'm sure. However, she may be a little slow under
oars. Joe Henry designed Flaquita in part to get more speed than his
Cartopper gave.
cheers
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
wrote:
>asking
>
> You ask an interesting question. I do wonder if you are either
> too much of simple boat, or asking too little of the sailor. Thedesigned
> seaworthiness of any small craft is mostly a matter of handling and
> caution. However, to the merits...
>
> There are very few of Bolger's small boats that are actually
> to plane. Some do, of course. Mostly, he like to design so that therail in
> crew is sitting on the bottom of the boat in greater comfort and
> possibly greater safety, but this means that you don't generate the
> power needed for to plane quite so easily. Gypsy is a good
> illustration. The hull will fly but the crew has to sit on the
> great discomfort.would
>
> I think you sell the Thomaston Galley short on seaworthiness. I
> guess she can take anything a Gypsy can, especially since she'sup.
> partially decked. She also has an open interior. As you noted, the
> structure needed for Gypsy's taped construction sort of fills her
> I think she has about the best hull shape for what you describe.You
> could give her some decking forward, and build one seat on therail if
> you wanted to do some customization. If so, you might want to thinkBoat
> about a rig with a mast more easily stepped and struck.
>
> Bolger designed a V-bottom catboat of about 15' during the Small
> Journal days. As I recall, it was published as a "familydaysailor",
> and Gary Blankenship built a stretched version. It won't planeeasily
> though since it has a lot of rocker. The Catfish Beachcruiser looksseemed
> good from a camping point of view, though the cabin has always
> a bit odd. Bolger did design a pure catboat deck for this hull,like a
> bigger Tinycat. These boats are probably out of the oar class intothe
> 2hp OB class, though.http://www.instantboats.com/boats.htmlfor
>
> Have you thought about Cartopper? I suppose she's a little small
> your wish list.
>
> Peter
>
You ask an interesting question. I do wonder if you are either asking
too much of simple boat, or asking too little of the sailor. The
seaworthiness of any small craft is mostly a matter of handling and
caution. However, to the merits...
There are very few of Bolger's small boats that are actually designed
to plane. Some do, of course. Mostly, he like to design so that the
crew is sitting on the bottom of the boat in greater comfort and
possibly greater safety, but this means that you don't generate the
power needed for to plane quite so easily. Gypsy is a good
illustration. The hull will fly but the crew has to sit on the rail in
great discomfort.
I think you sell the Thomaston Galley short on seaworthiness. I would
guess she can take anything a Gypsy can, especially since she's
partially decked. She also has an open interior. As you noted, the
structure needed for Gypsy's taped construction sort of fills her up.
I think she has about the best hull shape for what you describe. You
could give her some decking forward, and build one seat on the rail if
you wanted to do some customization. If so, you might want to think
about a rig with a mast more easily stepped and struck.
Bolger designed a V-bottom catboat of about 15' during the Small Boat
Journal days. As I recall, it was published as a "family daysailor",
and Gary Blankenship built a stretched version. It won't plane easily
though since it has a lot of rocker. The Catfish Beachcruiser looks
good from a camping point of view, though the cabin has always seemed
a bit odd. Bolger did design a pure catboat deck for this hull, like a
bigger Tinycat. These boats are probably out of the oar class into the
2hp OB class, though.http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html
Have you thought about Cartopper? I suppose she's a little small for
your wish list.
Peter
too much of simple boat, or asking too little of the sailor. The
seaworthiness of any small craft is mostly a matter of handling and
caution. However, to the merits...
There are very few of Bolger's small boats that are actually designed
to plane. Some do, of course. Mostly, he like to design so that the
crew is sitting on the bottom of the boat in greater comfort and
possibly greater safety, but this means that you don't generate the
power needed for to plane quite so easily. Gypsy is a good
illustration. The hull will fly but the crew has to sit on the rail in
great discomfort.
I think you sell the Thomaston Galley short on seaworthiness. I would
guess she can take anything a Gypsy can, especially since she's
partially decked. She also has an open interior. As you noted, the
structure needed for Gypsy's taped construction sort of fills her up.
I think she has about the best hull shape for what you describe. You
could give her some decking forward, and build one seat on the rail if
you wanted to do some customization. If so, you might want to think
about a rig with a mast more easily stepped and struck.
Bolger designed a V-bottom catboat of about 15' during the Small Boat
Journal days. As I recall, it was published as a "family daysailor",
and Gary Blankenship built a stretched version. It won't plane easily
though since it has a lot of rocker. The Catfish Beachcruiser looks
good from a camping point of view, though the cabin has always seemed
a bit odd. Bolger did design a pure catboat deck for this hull, like a
bigger Tinycat. These boats are probably out of the oar class into the
2hp OB class, though.http://www.instantboats.com/boats.html
Have you thought about Cartopper? I suppose she's a little small for
your wish list.
Peter
A good "instant" sailing rowboat for touring and semi-protected
waters? Mainly solo, quick to launch, easy to transport, some
overnighting. "Sweet Pea", or "Gypsy"?
Looking at designs for construction methods similar to those offered
by H H Payson, Bolger says the Light Dory is outright dangerous if
arranged for sail. The "Featherwind" is a sailing version of the
Light Dory Type. The "Featherwind" is designed to sail, but at 43.5
inches Bolger says "she's too wide on the bottom to be a really good
row boat". "Pirate Racer" at 39 inches on the bottom is mostly for
sailing. Some narrower on the bottom include instant
boats "Teal", "Surf", and "Zephyr", and these may be reasonable row
boats, I dunno. "Thomaston Galley" and "June Bug" like the others
may do, though only for protected water. "CSD Skiff" (aka "Perfect")
is mainly a sailer.
"Sweet Pea" may suit. She should be okay on semi-protected water.
There are various ways camping may be arranged. Bolger says he
didn't totally spoil her for rowing when fitting a sailing rig, as
often happens.
"Gypsy" is for protected water and not easily camped in. However,
she is a rowboat that sails well and I can't help thinking that with
a few tweaks here and there, well, maybe...
When Milton I Patrie of Louisville, Kentucky, wrote to Small Boat
Journal (#64 December/January 1989) requesting a 14' planing cat or
sloop for someone past 60, that might even form the basis for a
small racing class, Bolger responded with Cartoon 40.
Among Milton's requirements were: planing, centre board in
preference to daggerboard, deep cockpit and wide side decks as
opposed to Sunfish types; and a moored boat that's easier rigged
than erecting and dismantling a sleeved rig for each sail, which
really gives the game away. He was looking for a "Laser"
alternative. I think this is what Bolger understood too. Bolger
thought first of 14' 11 1/2" Gypsy, "an open boat designed with a
heavy emphasis on rowing", as Milton wanted oar auxilliary, and Dan
Segal had been at him to design a decked version since demonstrating
under sail Gypsy would plane spectacularly. Dan wanted only narrow
side decks for more comfortable hiking. However, Milton wanted a
boat with enough fore, aft, and wide side decking not only for
comfort, but with a tarp over the boom to keep rainwater out of a
boat left moored.
Bolger tried to adapt Gypsy to have large rain-shedding decks to
suit Milton in various ways. He found it would not work. He tried
double angled rudders and bilgeboards (retracting), and a Cartopper
type small centreboard forward with large rudder. In the end he
reappraised the request, and designeed "Cartoon 40".
First up, in addittion to modifying Gypsy to have wide rainshedding
Decks he had also wanted to make the cockpit so narrow that Gypsy
would float on her side when capsised, and looked first at the
layout with this in mind. (I have it in mind that Bolger was
thinking of the side decked daysailers of yester-year rather than
the decks being the top of sealed side bouyancy chambers.) He found
that a centreboard made the narrow cockpit impractical, and if
offset its emergence through the bilge panel caused excessive drag.
Unlike a centreboard it would appear that the daggerboard, even
offset more to one side, would not be an impediment to having wide
decks. (Pictures available of versions of Gypsy with added side
decks show mostly only narrow ones. This is what Bolger advised in
reply to an enquiry in Small Boat Journal #67 June/July 1989 . He
said 6 to 8 inches; though it seems here he was thinking of sealed
bouyancy below the deck of a dry sailer and not a moored rain
shedder. ) If the cockpit were just wide enough to sit in it ought
provide a snug space in which to camp also. Dan Segal observed that
sidedecks would "make the boat rigid enough to eliminate all the
irritating structure that cluttered up the inside". If intended for
solo use the cockpit could be so shortened as to allow a hard hatch
cover which would be stored on the after deck after the fashion of
some touring sneak-boxes of yester-year, like Nathaniel Bishop's
http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nhb/GIF/S014.GIF
http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nhb/SB.HTM
If Milton had of been happy with a daggerboard I wonder if Cartoon
40 would ever have eventuated? I wonder more though how Bolger would
have re-drawn Gypsy?
Are there any other good "instant" Bolger sailing rowboats for
touring and semi-protected waters? Mainly solo, quick to launch,
easy to transport, some overnighting?
Cheers
Graeme
waters? Mainly solo, quick to launch, easy to transport, some
overnighting. "Sweet Pea", or "Gypsy"?
Looking at designs for construction methods similar to those offered
by H H Payson, Bolger says the Light Dory is outright dangerous if
arranged for sail. The "Featherwind" is a sailing version of the
Light Dory Type. The "Featherwind" is designed to sail, but at 43.5
inches Bolger says "she's too wide on the bottom to be a really good
row boat". "Pirate Racer" at 39 inches on the bottom is mostly for
sailing. Some narrower on the bottom include instant
boats "Teal", "Surf", and "Zephyr", and these may be reasonable row
boats, I dunno. "Thomaston Galley" and "June Bug" like the others
may do, though only for protected water. "CSD Skiff" (aka "Perfect")
is mainly a sailer.
"Sweet Pea" may suit. She should be okay on semi-protected water.
There are various ways camping may be arranged. Bolger says he
didn't totally spoil her for rowing when fitting a sailing rig, as
often happens.
"Gypsy" is for protected water and not easily camped in. However,
she is a rowboat that sails well and I can't help thinking that with
a few tweaks here and there, well, maybe...
When Milton I Patrie of Louisville, Kentucky, wrote to Small Boat
Journal (#64 December/January 1989) requesting a 14' planing cat or
sloop for someone past 60, that might even form the basis for a
small racing class, Bolger responded with Cartoon 40.
Among Milton's requirements were: planing, centre board in
preference to daggerboard, deep cockpit and wide side decks as
opposed to Sunfish types; and a moored boat that's easier rigged
than erecting and dismantling a sleeved rig for each sail, which
really gives the game away. He was looking for a "Laser"
alternative. I think this is what Bolger understood too. Bolger
thought first of 14' 11 1/2" Gypsy, "an open boat designed with a
heavy emphasis on rowing", as Milton wanted oar auxilliary, and Dan
Segal had been at him to design a decked version since demonstrating
under sail Gypsy would plane spectacularly. Dan wanted only narrow
side decks for more comfortable hiking. However, Milton wanted a
boat with enough fore, aft, and wide side decking not only for
comfort, but with a tarp over the boom to keep rainwater out of a
boat left moored.
Bolger tried to adapt Gypsy to have large rain-shedding decks to
suit Milton in various ways. He found it would not work. He tried
double angled rudders and bilgeboards (retracting), and a Cartopper
type small centreboard forward with large rudder. In the end he
reappraised the request, and designeed "Cartoon 40".
First up, in addittion to modifying Gypsy to have wide rainshedding
Decks he had also wanted to make the cockpit so narrow that Gypsy
would float on her side when capsised, and looked first at the
layout with this in mind. (I have it in mind that Bolger was
thinking of the side decked daysailers of yester-year rather than
the decks being the top of sealed side bouyancy chambers.) He found
that a centreboard made the narrow cockpit impractical, and if
offset its emergence through the bilge panel caused excessive drag.
Unlike a centreboard it would appear that the daggerboard, even
offset more to one side, would not be an impediment to having wide
decks. (Pictures available of versions of Gypsy with added side
decks show mostly only narrow ones. This is what Bolger advised in
reply to an enquiry in Small Boat Journal #67 June/July 1989 . He
said 6 to 8 inches; though it seems here he was thinking of sealed
bouyancy below the deck of a dry sailer and not a moored rain
shedder. ) If the cockpit were just wide enough to sit in it ought
provide a snug space in which to camp also. Dan Segal observed that
sidedecks would "make the boat rigid enough to eliminate all the
irritating structure that cluttered up the inside". If intended for
solo use the cockpit could be so shortened as to allow a hard hatch
cover which would be stored on the after deck after the fashion of
some touring sneak-boxes of yester-year, like Nathaniel Bishop's
http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nhb/GIF/S014.GIF
http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nhb/SB.HTM
If Milton had of been happy with a daggerboard I wonder if Cartoon
40 would ever have eventuated? I wonder more though how Bolger would
have re-drawn Gypsy?
Are there any other good "instant" Bolger sailing rowboats for
touring and semi-protected waters? Mainly solo, quick to launch,
easy to transport, some overnighting?
Cheers
Graeme