Re: Stain on plywood under EPOXY (WAS polyester)
I caught something on the discovery Channel last night that might be
of interest to the whole community. Just in passing as they were
discussing the Titanic, they mentioned that the items that last best
after almost 100 years underwater where shoes, purses, belts and
other things made from leather. Maybe we should start sheathing our
boats with leather so they will last longer.....hehehehe
Fair Windas and Smooth Sailing
JJ
of interest to the whole community. Just in passing as they were
discussing the Titanic, they mentioned that the items that last best
after almost 100 years underwater where shoes, purses, belts and
other things made from leather. Maybe we should start sheathing our
boats with leather so they will last longer.....hehehehe
Fair Windas and Smooth Sailing
JJ
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
>
> I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe
dye,
> tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off
some
> chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and
thwarts
> in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered
with
> epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs
with
> a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
>
>
> David wrote:
>
> >I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed
that
> >most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
> >there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
> >after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results
leave
> >us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample
of
> >stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
> >allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it
representative
> >of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
> >
> >
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Clyde Wisner <clydewis@...> wrote:
>with
> Forgot to mention "brown" leather shoe dye vs polish and tolulene is a
> very hot solvent. Clyde
> Clyde Wisner wrote:
>
> >I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye,
> >tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
> >chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
> >in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
> >epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs
> >a lot of time in open sunlight. Clydedead horses
> >
> >
> >David wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
> >>most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
> >>there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
> >>after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
> >>us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
> >>stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
> >>allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
> >>of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >Bolger rules!!!
> >- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> >- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> >- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'posts
> >- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> >- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Forgot to mention "brown" leather shoe dye vs polish and tolulene is a
very hot solvent. Clyde
Clyde Wisner wrote:
very hot solvent. Clyde
Clyde Wisner wrote:
>I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
>chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
>in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
>epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs with
>a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
>
>
>David wrote:
>
>
>
>>I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
>>most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
>>there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
>>after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
>>us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
>>stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
>>allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
>>of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
>- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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I almost hate to admit this but once I spilled some leather shoe dye,
tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs with
a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
David wrote:
tolulene based, (spelling may be wrong) and never got it all off some
chairlegs. Later I got some more and staimed the transome and thwarts
in my Wine Glass Wherry. Made okume in to dark mahagony, covered with
epoxy and the transome with glass also. This has held up for 10 yrs with
a lot of time in open sunlight. Clyde
David wrote:
>I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
>most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
>there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
>after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
>us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
>stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
>allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
>of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
>
>
Jon,
An excellent suggestion (what else would one expect from a sternwheel
fan and an Oregon boy) <LOL> That process is called "toning". You
apply tinted topcoat (in this case varnish) until the desired color &
tone are achieved. Subsequent coats of varnish are applied untinted.
The only issue then becomes the one of later maintainance & touchups.
The more clear layers on top of the tinted ones the better. Then if
you keep up the brightwork maintainance, hopefully you can avoid
trying to match color due to a scuff or such that penetrates into the
tinted coats. Color matching a toned finish is Very Difficult. If a
bunch of repairs are made, it can end up looking a bit like a
splotchy attempt at a camo finish <G> If the brightwork is babied a
little in use, and regularly refreshed (see Ms. Witt's books for
details), such an approach could work quite well.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"In a consumer society, there are inevitably two kinds of slaves: the
prisoners of addiction, and the prisoners of envy" -- Ivan Illich
*******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
wrote:
An excellent suggestion (what else would one expect from a sternwheel
fan and an Oregon boy) <LOL> That process is called "toning". You
apply tinted topcoat (in this case varnish) until the desired color &
tone are achieved. Subsequent coats of varnish are applied untinted.
The only issue then becomes the one of later maintainance & touchups.
The more clear layers on top of the tinted ones the better. Then if
you keep up the brightwork maintainance, hopefully you can avoid
trying to match color due to a scuff or such that penetrates into the
tinted coats. Color matching a toned finish is Very Difficult. If a
bunch of repairs are made, it can end up looking a bit like a
splotchy attempt at a camo finish <G> If the brightwork is babied a
little in use, and regularly refreshed (see Ms. Witt's books for
details), such an approach could work quite well.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"In a consumer society, there are inevitably two kinds of slaves: the
prisoners of addiction, and the prisoners of envy" -- Ivan Illich
*******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
wrote:
>
> A solution may be to add a stain pigment to your varnish over the
> glass to give it the desired color.
>
> Jon
A solution may be to add a stain pigment to your varnish over the
glass to give it the desired color.
Jon
glass to give it the desired color.
Jon
>staining
> >From: "jjoven_49" <hoz49@...>
> >Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: [bolger] Re: Stain on plywood under EPOXY (WAS polyester)
> >Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:26:13 -0000
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering
> >it
> >it. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that
> >
> >was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The
> >
> >oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.
> >
> > >
> >
> > > Regards,
> >
> > > Frank Coletta
> >
> > > Auburn, WA
Thank you for the information.
>From: "jjoven_49" <hoz49@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Re: Stain on plywood under EPOXY (WAS polyester)
>Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2006 16:26:13 -0000
>
>
>
>
>
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining
>
>it.� I am� using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth.� I learned that it
>
>was necessary to� use water-based stain for epoxy resin.� The
>
>oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.�
>
> >
>
> > Regards,
>
> > Frank Coletta
>
> > Auburn, WA
>
>
>
>
>
>Not so, read West System epoxy over stains adhesion test:
>
>
>
>http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread
>
>
>
>With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!� Please!
>
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
>horses
>
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
>(978) 282-1349
>
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I'm gonna jump in here again. It's true that the West test showed that
most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
all? Some worked only after a longer than normal drytime - I'd guess
to allow more of the volatile materials which were impeding adhesion
to outgas. Are the remaining volatiles going to compromise the
long-term adhesion? Would other brands or formulations of epoxy
experience different results? Better? Worse?
My conclusion - even after being reminded of the West test results -
is the same. If you want to be safe using stain in your composite
schedule, use a dyestain. Safest is one in water (though that means
dealing with the minor irritation of grain raising). A close second
for safety would be the dyestain in alcohol. Smartest of all might be
no stain at all. Then, there are no subsequent color-matching issues -
if (when?) a bit of touchup to the finish is required.
This is just one person's perspective - heavily colored by a distaste
for redoing tasks, and a severe lack of time for maintainance. I'd
rather be on the water. If you have more time & inclination to putter,
and don't mind the prospect of possibly cleaning up a messy experiment
- cause you've learned something from it - oil stain might work fine
for you.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"As I said before, I never repeat myself"
******************
most of the oil stains did work under West System epoxy. However...
there were issues. Some brands worked with minimal dry time, some
after extensive drytime. One worked not at all. So the results leave
us with a partial answer regarding oil stains. Of the small sample of
stains tested (less than a dozen IIRC) we know at least one did not
allow the epoxy/cloth composite to adhere well. Is it representative
of a larger group of oil stains (not tested) that would not work at
all? Some worked only after a longer than normal drytime - I'd guess
to allow more of the volatile materials which were impeding adhesion
to outgas. Are the remaining volatiles going to compromise the
long-term adhesion? Would other brands or formulations of epoxy
experience different results? Better? Worse?
My conclusion - even after being reminded of the West test results -
is the same. If you want to be safe using stain in your composite
schedule, use a dyestain. Safest is one in water (though that means
dealing with the minor irritation of grain raising). A close second
for safety would be the dyestain in alcohol. Smartest of all might be
no stain at all. Then, there are no subsequent color-matching issues -
if (when?) a bit of touchup to the finish is required.
This is just one person's perspective - heavily colored by a distaste
for redoing tasks, and a severe lack of time for maintainance. I'd
rather be on the water. If you have more time & inclination to putter,
and don't mind the prospect of possibly cleaning up a messy experiment
- cause you've learned something from it - oil stain might work fine
for you.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR.
"As I said before, I never repeat myself"
******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "jjoven_49" <hoz49@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@> wrote:
>
> > I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining
> it. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that
it was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The
> oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Frank Coletta
> > Auburn, WA
>***********************
>
> Not so, read West System epoxy over stains adhesion test:>
>http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread
>
> With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "FRANK Coletta" <coletta_j@...> wrote:
was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The
oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.
http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread
With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
> I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering stainingit. I am using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it
was necessary to use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The
oil-based stain would either not > stick or degrade the epoxy.
>Not so, read West System epoxy over stains adhesion test:
> Regards,
> Frank Coletta
> Auburn, WA
http://www.boatbuilding.net/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/1252240&mode=thread
With adequate drying time oil based stains work well too.
Bobby,
I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining it. I am
using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it was necessary to
use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The oil-based stain would either not
stick or degrade the epoxy. I am not sure if that also applies to polyester
resin.
Regards,
Frank Coletta
Auburn, WA
I am building a strip built dinghy and I was considering staining it. I am
using epoxy resin and fiberglass cloth. I learned that it was necessary to
use water-based stain for epoxy resin. The oil-based stain would either not
stick or degrade the epoxy. I am not sure if that also applies to polyester
resin.
Regards,
Frank Coletta
Auburn, WA
>From: "txsailor37" <txsailor37@...>
>Reply-To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [bolger] Stain on plywood under polyester
>Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 04:06:56 -0000
>
>
>
>
>
>I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I was
>
>considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester resin)
>
>and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish.�� Does anyone see
>
>a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a stain???��
>
>Is there a water based stain?� Oil based? .... I am not sure as to what
>
>would work best under� the polyester resin.�� I would appreciate any
>
>help.
>
>
>
>Thanks Bobby
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Bolger rules!!!
>
>- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!!� Please!
>
>- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
>horses
>
>- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
>
>- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
>
>- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
>(978) 282-1349
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "txsailor37" <txsailor37@...> wrote:
finish tones I want. Use an external varnish with UV inhibitors that
is compitable with polyester resin.
Be sure to remove any waxes from the polyester - or amines if you
choose epoxy - before varnishing.
Nels
>was
> I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I
> considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyesterresin)
> and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish. Does anyonesee
> a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in astain???
> Is there a water based stain? Oil based? .... I am not sure as towhat
> would work best under the polyester resin. I would appreciate anyI would skip the staining and choose a top varnish that creates the
> help.
>
> Thanks Bobby
finish tones I want. Use an external varnish with UV inhibitors that
is compitable with polyester resin.
Be sure to remove any waxes from the polyester - or amines if you
choose epoxy - before varnishing.
Nels
Bobby,
I've been a professional woodworker for (mumble, mumble) decades, and
currently own a small architectural millwork shop. One thing I've
learned is that finishing systems - or any mixing of chemicals - can
be finicky to the point of being disasterous. I have no firm evidence
that such a finish schedule as you're describing wouldn't work, but
I'm skeptical. You don't say: what wood you'd be staining; what type
of stain you'd be using; what weight fiberglass cloth; which polyester
resin (I won't restart the discussion about polyester vs. epoxy - but,
again, I'm skeptical); etc. In these situations, the details are
important.
So, I see two choices. First, do a bit of research to establish that
your scheme will work... or how it needs to be modified to work.
Second, assume it'll be fine, and proceed - knowing that you may be
making a big mess to either live with or clean up. It may turn out to
be good for decades, I truly don't know - but my "watch out" bone is
twitching.
Well then, Mr. Opinionated... what would you do? OK, the biggest
concern is the stain making it difficult for your cloth/resin to stick
to the wood. I'd either skip it, or use a dye-stain (in either alcohol
or water). Oil based stain would be my very distant last choice.
Either way, I'd let it dry for a long time. Days. Second concern is
the polyester resin. It's not known for adhering well in applications
such as yours. Any stain you use has the potential to further degrade
the adhesion. I'd use epoxy resin. There's more, but you can research
by reading back thru the previous posts if you want to. Or, read Jim
Michalak's newsletters. Or ask the same question at other forums.
Or... just go for it. Whatever you choose, good luck!
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Of the live mariners, there are but two categores; the novices and
the pessimists"
*******************
I've been a professional woodworker for (mumble, mumble) decades, and
currently own a small architectural millwork shop. One thing I've
learned is that finishing systems - or any mixing of chemicals - can
be finicky to the point of being disasterous. I have no firm evidence
that such a finish schedule as you're describing wouldn't work, but
I'm skeptical. You don't say: what wood you'd be staining; what type
of stain you'd be using; what weight fiberglass cloth; which polyester
resin (I won't restart the discussion about polyester vs. epoxy - but,
again, I'm skeptical); etc. In these situations, the details are
important.
So, I see two choices. First, do a bit of research to establish that
your scheme will work... or how it needs to be modified to work.
Second, assume it'll be fine, and proceed - knowing that you may be
making a big mess to either live with or clean up. It may turn out to
be good for decades, I truly don't know - but my "watch out" bone is
twitching.
Well then, Mr. Opinionated... what would you do? OK, the biggest
concern is the stain making it difficult for your cloth/resin to stick
to the wood. I'd either skip it, or use a dye-stain (in either alcohol
or water). Oil based stain would be my very distant last choice.
Either way, I'd let it dry for a long time. Days. Second concern is
the polyester resin. It's not known for adhering well in applications
such as yours. Any stain you use has the potential to further degrade
the adhesion. I'd use epoxy resin. There's more, but you can research
by reading back thru the previous posts if you want to. Or, read Jim
Michalak's newsletters. Or ask the same question at other forums.
Or... just go for it. Whatever you choose, good luck!
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Of the live mariners, there are but two categores; the novices and
the pessimists"
*******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "txsailor37" <txsailor37@...> wrote:
>
> I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I
was considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester
resin) and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish. Does
anyone see a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a
stain???
> Is there a water based stain? Oil based? .... I am not sure as to
what would work best under the polyester resin. I would appreciate
any help.
>
> Thanks Bobby
I am planning on getting the deck down on my Bobcat this weekend. I was
considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester resin)
and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish. Does anyone see
a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a stain???
Is there a water based stain? Oil based? .... I am not sure as to what
would work best under the polyester resin. I would appreciate any
help.
Thanks Bobby
considering staining the wood, then glassing it (with polyester resin)
and finishing it with a marine (or exterior) varnish. Does anyone see
a problem with this and if not, what should I look for in a stain???
Is there a water based stain? Oil based? .... I am not sure as to what
would work best under the polyester resin. I would appreciate any
help.
Thanks Bobby