Re: [bolger] Eeek!........Bruce Hallman started this one.
If anyone's hankering after a ply conversion...
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#YAMATO
It's both beamier than Sucher's smaller model and wider on the bottom
with less deadrise, yet it definitely has the flavor.
Mark
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#YAMATO
It's both beamier than Sucher's smaller model and wider on the bottom
with less deadrise, yet it definitely has the flavor.
Mark
On Mar 17, 2006, at 7:08 AM, John Kohnen wrote:
>
> Harry Sucher has a chapter on modern Yamato boats in Simplified
> Boatbuilding: V-Bottom Boats. Here are a couple of them:
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato25.gif
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato32.gif
>
>
>
>
If anyone's hankering for a ply conversion...
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#YAMATO
It's both beamier than Sucher's smaller model and wider on the bottom
with less deadrise, yet it definitely has the flavor.
Mark
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#YAMATO
It's both beamier than Sucher's smaller model and wider on the bottom
with less deadrise, yet it definitely has the flavor.
Mark
On Mar 17, 2006, at 7:08 AM, John Kohnen wrote:
>
> Harry Sucher has a chapter on modern Yamato boats in Simplified
> Boatbuilding: V-Bottom Boats. Here are a couple of them:
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato25.gif
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato32.gif
>
>
>
>
John,
thanks very much for your comprehesive reply. At about the time I
saw PCB&F's write up of #635 and their mention of Yamato boats I
also saw the sketch of the Selway Fisher 23' Yamato Boat,
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htmand have been a little
puzzled since in reconciling the two apparently differing types.
I see the Yamato boats have the slender dead flat bottom, however
with an amount of rise in the run aft to a squared stern bottom. It
seems if a good spot to work a skul from was not needed, and the
timbers were not so hefty and difficult to bend, then the boats
could easily have the pointy flat bottomed stern too.
Coincidently in my online wanderings the other day I was arrested by
the depiction of an inshore Japanese fishery at Fritz's boat pages.
These boats are smaller, for a different fishery to that of the
Yamato boat no doubt, however their heavy plank construction and bow
seems similar. For the most part they seem to differ too in having,
more or less, a flat bottom and plumb sides fashioned from only
three planks without the additional two Yamato boat keel wing
planks.
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Yachigashira/Yachimain.htm
Yet it may not always be the case as most of the boats depicted by
Fritz seem to be in excellent condition, and may be relatively young
and after a more recent fashion. The most worn, and possibly oldest
and therefore most traditional boat shown is the greenish coloured
one at the upper right on the "Unanswered Questions" page. This
shows, from an outside view, the transom and a little of the aft
bottom. It appears to me that this is most probably a five plank
boat having the Yamato-like two keel wing planks.
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Yachigashira/YachiQuestions.htm
I'd wager Mr Bolger has done some Yamato boat designs, and that
there is some "Yamato" influence in quite a few of his designs.
Graeme
thanks very much for your comprehesive reply. At about the time I
saw PCB&F's write up of #635 and their mention of Yamato boats I
also saw the sketch of the Selway Fisher 23' Yamato Boat,
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htmand have been a little
puzzled since in reconciling the two apparently differing types.
I see the Yamato boats have the slender dead flat bottom, however
with an amount of rise in the run aft to a squared stern bottom. It
seems if a good spot to work a skul from was not needed, and the
timbers were not so hefty and difficult to bend, then the boats
could easily have the pointy flat bottomed stern too.
Coincidently in my online wanderings the other day I was arrested by
the depiction of an inshore Japanese fishery at Fritz's boat pages.
These boats are smaller, for a different fishery to that of the
Yamato boat no doubt, however their heavy plank construction and bow
seems similar. For the most part they seem to differ too in having,
more or less, a flat bottom and plumb sides fashioned from only
three planks without the additional two Yamato boat keel wing
planks.
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Yachigashira/Yachimain.htm
Yet it may not always be the case as most of the boats depicted by
Fritz seem to be in excellent condition, and may be relatively young
and after a more recent fashion. The most worn, and possibly oldest
and therefore most traditional boat shown is the greenish coloured
one at the upper right on the "Unanswered Questions" page. This
shows, from an outside view, the transom and a little of the aft
bottom. It appears to me that this is most probably a five plank
boat having the Yamato-like two keel wing planks.
http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Yachigashira/YachiQuestions.htm
I'd wager Mr Bolger has done some Yamato boat designs, and that
there is some "Yamato" influence in quite a few of his designs.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:46:42 -0800, graeme wrote:
>
> > ...
> > They mention that the cutwater can be traced into antiquity on
> > traditional Japanese Yamato boats.
> > ...
> > Does anyone know if the Yamato boats also had the dead flat
bottom
> > pointy stern?
> > ...
>
> Harry Sucher has a chapter on modern Yamato boats in Simplified
> Boatbuilding: V-Bottom Boats. Here are a couple of them:
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato25.gif
>
>http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato32.gif
>
> "The Yamato boats of Japan, and the Sampans of the Hawaiian
Islands and the South Seas that are derived from them, have many
useful characteristics that could be of interest to practical
boatmen of the Western world. Developed by practical boatmen and
empirical builders through a trial-and-error process dictated by the
stern demands of hard service, these launches represent an excellent
compromise of both economy in building and upkeep, and in seakeeping
ability."The primitive origin of the Yamato boat was a dugout canoe
fashioned from large trees which were once plentiful on the islands
of Japan...
>... "In the fourteenth century, the supply of large trees became
exhausted and the native builders subsequently developed a canoe of
similar size made from thick planks...
>..."A distinctive feature of the Yamato boats is the structure at
the transom. In the traditionally built hulls, the side and wing
planks are extended aft of the transom some 18 to 24 inches on the
average, according to the size of the boat. As the bottom plank
ends at the bottom of the transom, an aperture is left through the
bottom to accommodate a sculling oar which has its fulcrum in a
notched beam across the top of the transom. The inner edges of the
wing plank are usually cut away somewhat to widen the opening, and
the after end is left open...
>... This produces an easy driving hull as there is little drag in
the stern sections
even under varying conditions of loading...
>... "The Yamato boats have been built to this system for centuries,
with but slight variations on the part of individual builders or
perhaps to the dictates of local areas. In recent years a growing
shortage of the wide planks formerly used has necessitated the
incorporation of
somewhat narrower stock. This entails dealing or edge fastening to
build up the material to the correct width, the construction then
proceeding in the usual manner. The heavy construction results in a
very durable and long lasting hull, and many of the boats have been
in constant use for 100 years or more, finally having been converted
to power. The native builders do not appear to wish to compromise
the excessive weight in the hull to easier beaching that a light
hull could afford...
...As a fine-lined displacement hull with a lack of bearing
aft, the speed capabilities are moderate, and low powered, single
cylinder engines are sufficient to drive them up to their terminal
hull speed of 5-to-7 knots."
> John <jkohnen@...>
> A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on.
<William
> Burroughs>
>
On Thu, 16 Mar 2006 20:46:42 -0800, graeme wrote:
Boatbuilding: V-Bottom Boats. Here are a couple of them:
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato25.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato32.gif
"The Yamato boats of Japan, and the Sampans of the Hawaiian Islands and
the South Seas that are derived from them, have many useful
characteristics that could be of interest to practical boatmen of the
Western world. Developed by practical boatmen and empirical builders
through a trial-and-error process dictated by the stern demands of hard
service, these launches represent an excellent compromise of both economy
in building and upkeep, and in seakeeping ability.
"The primitive origin of the Yamato boat was a dugout canoe fashioned from
large trees which were once plentiful on the islands of Japan. These craft
were built in various sizes from 14 to 26 feet in length, the beam or
girth varying as to the diameter of the log selected. The smaller canoes
were propelled by sculls or paddles, but the larger types were often
fitted with one or two masts carrying lug-type sails of woven matting. The
rig was made readily demountable, as the canoes were used as beach boats
and were launched through the surf.
"In the fourteenth century, the supply of large trees became exhausted and
the native builders subsequently developed a canoe of similar size made
from thick planks. The form of these hulls was at variance with the
trough-like dugouts, as the thick plank could not be worked into sharp
bends. The result was a rather spindle-shaped hull of narrow beam. The
V-bottom form was no doubt selected as being more able for offshore work
than a simpler flat-bottom type, and more suitable for handling through
the surf. Its ultimate shape was, of course, determined by the developed
form of its planking.
"The actual form of these boats was determined by the use of five very
wide single planks that varied in dimensions of 1 1/4 to 2 inches net
thickness and 18 to 24 inches in width, according to the size of the hull,
which was built in similar sizes as the parent Yamato dugout. Each side
has a sheer plank that stands nearly vertical, with a wing plank below
that forms the turn of the bilge (Figure 105). The keel plank is common to
both sides and laid on the flat, its forward end tapering to a point where
it engages the heel of the stem. The latter is straight and set at a
strong rake, accommodating the developed shape of the side and wing
planking in a natural sweep. The similarity here to the American Northern
skipjack form is notable, except that the Oriental builders fashioned an
even easier bend by the sharply raked stem, although the beam forward is
much more narrow than when formed with a plumb stem. Both of these forms
impose a high chine configuration.
"A distinctive feature of the Yamato boats is the structure at the
transom. In the traditionally built hulls, the side and wing planks are
extended aft of the transom some 18 to 24 inches on the average, according
to the size of the boat. As the bottom plank ends at the bottom of the
transom, an aperture is left through the bottom to accommodate a sculling
oar which has its fulcrum in a notched beam across the top of the transom.
The inner edges of the wing plank are usually cut away somewhat to widen
the opening, and the after end is left open.
"Another characteristic feature of the Yamato boat is the fitting of three
or four or more heavy thwarts across the beam that extend outboard from 12
to 24 inches on either side. These appear to have been fitted to carry the
poles used in the pole and line fishing these boats principally engaged
in, and compensate somewhat for the narrow beam of the boats in providing
useful storage space. The thwarts are fitted with short upright pegs at
their outer ends to keep the poles from falling off. In most cases the
thwarts are tapered or rounded to a smaller diameter at their outer ends
from about the edges of the gunwales to lower their outboard weight and
for better appearance.
"While the older types of planked Yamato boats were fitted for sculling,
the larger types were fitted with one or two short masts and lug sails of
woven matting as in the case of the earlier dugout canoes.
"In building, the hulls are set up in an upright position on a heavy
building form, and the heavy planks are sprung into position with the aid
of props, stays, and chains which are used in conjunction with levers. The
keel is fashioned first, and is actually in two pieces, the after section
being set at a shallow angle to rise toward the transom. This produces an
easy driving hull as there is little drag in the stern sections even under
varying conditions of loading. A stopwater is required in this joint, but
sometimes where very heavy plank is used a mortise joint is formed in
place of any fastenings. A similar condition exists forward, where the
heel of the stem may have a like fitting. As the heavy plank possesses
great longitudinal rigidity, most builders dispense with a full framing
system. A few floors were placed at intervals in the bottom to act as
braces for the wing planks, and a few side frames are fitted in the form
of cleats to brace bulkheads that subdivide the interior into fish holds
and storage spaces. A fair degree of manual skill is required in
edge-fastening the outer planks, as no chine stringers appear to have been
fitted in either the older examples or contemporary craft.
"The Yamato boats have been built to this system for centuries, with but
slight variations on the part of individual builders or perhaps to the
dictates of local areas. In recent years a growing shortage of the wide
planks formerly used has necessitated the incorporation of somewhat
narrower stock. This entails dealing or edge fastening to build up the
material to the correct width, the construction then proceeding in the
usual manner. The heavy construction results in a very durable and long
lasting hull, and many of the boats have been in constant use for 100
years or more, finally having been converted to power. The native builders
do not appear to wish to compromise the excessive weight in the hull to
easier beaching that a light hull could afford.
"With the coming of power in the twentieth century, many of the old hulls
were fitted with engines. After 1920, most new boats were built as power
launches. As a fine-lined displacement hull with a lack of bearing aft,
the speed capabilities are moderate, and low powered, single cylinder
engines are sufficient to drive them up to their terminal hull speed of
5-to-7 knots."
--
John <jkohnen@...>
A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on. <William
Burroughs>
> ...Harry Sucher has a chapter on modern Yamato boats in Simplified
> They mention that the cutwater can be traced into antiquity on
> traditional Japanese Yamato boats.
> ...
> Does anyone know if the Yamato boats also had the dead flat bottom
> pointy stern?
> ...
Boatbuilding: V-Bottom Boats. Here are a couple of them:
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato25.gif
http://www.boat-links.com/images/Yamato32.gif
"The Yamato boats of Japan, and the Sampans of the Hawaiian Islands and
the South Seas that are derived from them, have many useful
characteristics that could be of interest to practical boatmen of the
Western world. Developed by practical boatmen and empirical builders
through a trial-and-error process dictated by the stern demands of hard
service, these launches represent an excellent compromise of both economy
in building and upkeep, and in seakeeping ability.
"The primitive origin of the Yamato boat was a dugout canoe fashioned from
large trees which were once plentiful on the islands of Japan. These craft
were built in various sizes from 14 to 26 feet in length, the beam or
girth varying as to the diameter of the log selected. The smaller canoes
were propelled by sculls or paddles, but the larger types were often
fitted with one or two masts carrying lug-type sails of woven matting. The
rig was made readily demountable, as the canoes were used as beach boats
and were launched through the surf.
"In the fourteenth century, the supply of large trees became exhausted and
the native builders subsequently developed a canoe of similar size made
from thick planks. The form of these hulls was at variance with the
trough-like dugouts, as the thick plank could not be worked into sharp
bends. The result was a rather spindle-shaped hull of narrow beam. The
V-bottom form was no doubt selected as being more able for offshore work
than a simpler flat-bottom type, and more suitable for handling through
the surf. Its ultimate shape was, of course, determined by the developed
form of its planking.
"The actual form of these boats was determined by the use of five very
wide single planks that varied in dimensions of 1 1/4 to 2 inches net
thickness and 18 to 24 inches in width, according to the size of the hull,
which was built in similar sizes as the parent Yamato dugout. Each side
has a sheer plank that stands nearly vertical, with a wing plank below
that forms the turn of the bilge (Figure 105). The keel plank is common to
both sides and laid on the flat, its forward end tapering to a point where
it engages the heel of the stem. The latter is straight and set at a
strong rake, accommodating the developed shape of the side and wing
planking in a natural sweep. The similarity here to the American Northern
skipjack form is notable, except that the Oriental builders fashioned an
even easier bend by the sharply raked stem, although the beam forward is
much more narrow than when formed with a plumb stem. Both of these forms
impose a high chine configuration.
"A distinctive feature of the Yamato boats is the structure at the
transom. In the traditionally built hulls, the side and wing planks are
extended aft of the transom some 18 to 24 inches on the average, according
to the size of the boat. As the bottom plank ends at the bottom of the
transom, an aperture is left through the bottom to accommodate a sculling
oar which has its fulcrum in a notched beam across the top of the transom.
The inner edges of the wing plank are usually cut away somewhat to widen
the opening, and the after end is left open.
"Another characteristic feature of the Yamato boat is the fitting of three
or four or more heavy thwarts across the beam that extend outboard from 12
to 24 inches on either side. These appear to have been fitted to carry the
poles used in the pole and line fishing these boats principally engaged
in, and compensate somewhat for the narrow beam of the boats in providing
useful storage space. The thwarts are fitted with short upright pegs at
their outer ends to keep the poles from falling off. In most cases the
thwarts are tapered or rounded to a smaller diameter at their outer ends
from about the edges of the gunwales to lower their outboard weight and
for better appearance.
"While the older types of planked Yamato boats were fitted for sculling,
the larger types were fitted with one or two short masts and lug sails of
woven matting as in the case of the earlier dugout canoes.
"In building, the hulls are set up in an upright position on a heavy
building form, and the heavy planks are sprung into position with the aid
of props, stays, and chains which are used in conjunction with levers. The
keel is fashioned first, and is actually in two pieces, the after section
being set at a shallow angle to rise toward the transom. This produces an
easy driving hull as there is little drag in the stern sections even under
varying conditions of loading. A stopwater is required in this joint, but
sometimes where very heavy plank is used a mortise joint is formed in
place of any fastenings. A similar condition exists forward, where the
heel of the stem may have a like fitting. As the heavy plank possesses
great longitudinal rigidity, most builders dispense with a full framing
system. A few floors were placed at intervals in the bottom to act as
braces for the wing planks, and a few side frames are fitted in the form
of cleats to brace bulkheads that subdivide the interior into fish holds
and storage spaces. A fair degree of manual skill is required in
edge-fastening the outer planks, as no chine stringers appear to have been
fitted in either the older examples or contemporary craft.
"The Yamato boats have been built to this system for centuries, with but
slight variations on the part of individual builders or perhaps to the
dictates of local areas. In recent years a growing shortage of the wide
planks formerly used has necessitated the incorporation of somewhat
narrower stock. This entails dealing or edge fastening to build up the
material to the correct width, the construction then proceeding in the
usual manner. The heavy construction results in a very durable and long
lasting hull, and many of the boats have been in constant use for 100
years or more, finally having been converted to power. The native builders
do not appear to wish to compromise the excessive weight in the hull to
easier beaching that a light hull could afford.
"With the coming of power in the twentieth century, many of the old hulls
were fitted with engines. After 1920, most new boats were built as power
launches. As a fine-lined displacement hull with a lack of bearing aft,
the speed capabilities are moderate, and low powered, single cylinder
engines are sufficient to drive them up to their terminal hull speed of
5-to-7 knots."
--
John <jkohnen@...>
A paranoid is a man who knows a little of what's going on. <William
Burroughs>
Hi Mark,
this ability to carry heavy weights might be partly why PCB&F have
the Eeek!-Anhinga-Topaz-Sitka Explorer slender-flat-bottom-pointy-
stern on the heavy steel #635 Col. H.G.Hasler box-keel cutwater. See
bolger_study_plans_only Files at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/
They mention that the cutwater can be traced into antiquity on
traditional Japanese Yamato boats. In the 40% test boat, "Flying
Cloud" Brick, the mentioned benefit of freeing a fat hull from
bogging down in its own waves is attributed to shifting displacement
to the ends. For SitkaExplorer, and Topaz, mentioned benefits
include bouyancy and reduced wave making. #635 is interesting for
its three fold combination of slender-dead-flat-bottom-pointy-stern,
dead rise, and segmental bisecting chine lines.
Col. H. G. Hasler keel L/B = approx 10. Flying Cloud = 6.4.
Does anyone know if the Yamato boats also had the dead flat bottom
pointy stern? Also, is #635 the most recent (1997?) design to have
the rule bending dead flat bottom pointy stern?
Graeme
this ability to carry heavy weights might be partly why PCB&F have
the Eeek!-Anhinga-Topaz-Sitka Explorer slender-flat-bottom-pointy-
stern on the heavy steel #635 Col. H.G.Hasler box-keel cutwater. See
bolger_study_plans_only Files at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/
They mention that the cutwater can be traced into antiquity on
traditional Japanese Yamato boats. In the 40% test boat, "Flying
Cloud" Brick, the mentioned benefit of freeing a fat hull from
bogging down in its own waves is attributed to shifting displacement
to the ends. For SitkaExplorer, and Topaz, mentioned benefits
include bouyancy and reduced wave making. #635 is interesting for
its three fold combination of slender-dead-flat-bottom-pointy-stern,
dead rise, and segmental bisecting chine lines.
Col. H. G. Hasler keel L/B = approx 10. Flying Cloud = 6.4.
Does anyone know if the Yamato boats also had the dead flat bottom
pointy stern? Also, is #635 the most recent (1997?) design to have
the rule bending dead flat bottom pointy stern?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "marka97203" <marka@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, folks:
>
> Just dropped in for awhile and blundered on to your discussion of
my favorite boat!....
> Most any flatty with stern rocker enough to be best w/ electric
power is going to have the
> battery bank smack in the middle of the boat. The beauty of the
Anhinga stern for my
> purpose is in getting them out of the way. Double enders do take
overloading a little
> better than a square stern. The Anhinga shape offers the ability
to carrry heavy weights aft
> yet still have low drag.
Hi, folks:
Just dropped in for awhile and blundered on to your discussion of my favorite boat!
the front to back ventilation under the seats would carry the flow forward into the cabin.
That's quite doable. Before my hard drive crashed I had some of versions of that in Hulls. It
took less fiddling than stretching the Peero to 20'.
Since Anhinga itself is still too big a boat for me to deal with, and since I'm less interested
in sailing than in electric power, I've also got a scheme for a 24 footer with just four foot
beam, more like a 2x Eeek!, but with the sides pared down to just 24" with the sheer line
following the original's rub rail. That's just about a 6 or 8 sheet boat. Maybe as a sectional.
Most any flatty with stern rocker enough to be best w/ electric power is going to have the
battery bank smack in the middle of the boat. The beauty of the Anhinga stern for my
purpose is in getting them out of the way. Double enders do take overloading a little
better than a square stern. The Anhinga shape offers the ability to carrry heavy weights aft
yet still have low drag.
As an easily transported sail boat, she allows getting the water ballast out of the cabin, yet
still pile it on to make up for the weaker quarters of a double ender.
Cheers,
Mark
Just dropped in for awhile and blundered on to your discussion of my favorite boat!
> Perhaps she flooded through the open after hatch?It did flood. A look at the construction plan shows that if the after compartment is flooded,
the front to back ventilation under the seats would carry the flow forward into the cabin.
> Graeme (who sees maybe a 2/3 scale Anhinga in a morphed 2' longerJune Bug
That's quite doable. Before my hard drive crashed I had some of versions of that in Hulls. It
took less fiddling than stretching the Peero to 20'.
Since Anhinga itself is still too big a boat for me to deal with, and since I'm less interested
in sailing than in electric power, I've also got a scheme for a 24 footer with just four foot
beam, more like a 2x Eeek!, but with the sides pared down to just 24" with the sheer line
following the original's rub rail. That's just about a 6 or 8 sheet boat. Maybe as a sectional.
Most any flatty with stern rocker enough to be best w/ electric power is going to have the
battery bank smack in the middle of the boat. The beauty of the Anhinga stern for my
purpose is in getting them out of the way. Double enders do take overloading a little
better than a square stern. The Anhinga shape offers the ability to carrry heavy weights aft
yet still have low drag.
As an easily transported sail boat, she allows getting the water ballast out of the cabin, yet
still pile it on to make up for the weaker quarters of a double ender.
Cheers,
Mark
Well spotted Geoff. Now that is slender! WLBeam of 4ft6ins gives L/B
= 13.77. At his suggested 85ft L/B = 18.88 - proa like. William
Garden doesn't mention the displacement just that she could pack a
good load, anyway 10.2kts at a fuel consumption of 2gallons/hr is
low. I wonder where the flat bottom pointy stern idea originated?
Garden mentions a 60ft Indian dugout canoe: might that be it? Except
that would have rounded bilges, wouldn't it, and Bolger seems to
imply the hard chine helps the rule bending performance?
Graeme
= 13.77. At his suggested 85ft L/B = 18.88 - proa like. William
Garden doesn't mention the displacement just that she could pack a
good load, anyway 10.2kts at a fuel consumption of 2gallons/hr is
low. I wonder where the flat bottom pointy stern idea originated?
Garden mentions a 60ft Indian dugout canoe: might that be it? Except
that would have rounded bilges, wouldn't it, and Bolger seems to
imply the hard chine helps the rule bending performance?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "gc4248" <luvmybeama@...> wrote:
>
> The William Garden "Tlinget" has the flat bottom, pointed stern
design,
> see the files in Bolger 3. Length is 62', beam is 7' 6" with
flared
> sides, so L/B on its bottom approaches 10:1!
>
> Geoff
>
The William Garden "Tlinget" has the flat bottom, pointed stern design,
see the files in Bolger 3. Length is 62', beam is 7' 6" with flared
sides, so L/B on its bottom approaches 10:1!
Geoff
see the files in Bolger 3. Length is 62', beam is 7' 6" with flared
sides, so L/B on its bottom approaches 10:1!
Geoff
>http://tinyurl.com/9s7frGood enough proof for me, thanks.
Done & dusted as far as I can tell. Jim Michalak hadn't taken it off
his site when I last looked. It's been there quite a while. He
doesn't just mention, but states in the first person: "... Phil's
theory starts with the idea that the boat is crashing through a sea
of frozen peas.."
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2000/0401/index.htm#HULL
%
20SHAPING
or to save pasting try
http://tinyurl.com/9s7fr
&
"...once he sent me an article about hull shaping that he was trying
to get published... THE HULL SHAPING THEORY THAT WOODENBOAT REFUSED
TO PRINT!!!
AFLOAT ON SEAS OF PEAS...
This is Phil Bolger theory..." & etc.
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2004/0901/index.htm#Hull
%
20Shaping2
or
http://tinyurl.com/bnks4
Gary Blankenship also reported reading a draft article shown him by
PCB concerning this (at around the same time JM saw it).
And to reiterate, SOP is a visualisation technique. It is not
the "in-the-body-plan-view-the-chine-line-bisects-angle-of-bottom-
and-sides-lines", as typified in the advanced sharpies, which is but
one derivative of Boger flow theory that can be understood by the
SOP technique.
His advanced sharpie ideas, mainly for heeling displacement hulls,
go back some time. Jim Michalak and myself were at best still only
in short pants. In fact the ideas may predate us entirely. What
really interests me now is PCB&F's more recent claims for the "deep-
pointy-sterned-dead-flat-bottomed-slender-shallow" hull (DPSDFBSS),
its developmental history, and its visualisation using SOP.
I think there is reason to believe DPSDFBSS has some history in
boats like Eeek!, the Sneakeasy type, and some States class
powerboats.
I think the "dead-flat-bottom" bit means it's kind of planing at
rest, and it's not shoving any peas about here. The "deep-pointy-
stern" bit minimises wave drag. The "slender" bit means not so many
peas are pushed aside, and that is done gently (PCB&F say "slender"
for L/B's above 5.1). The "shallow" bit is perhaps the most
important, and means that the pea pressure at the chine is low - not
so many peas have to pass around the chine and under the hull - the
peas at the sides can rise up in a quite small wave on each side
that are eased into subsiding as they rejoin at the pointy stern.
Bolger has said many times that deep hulls make large waves - they
shove a lot of peas to the side. He has said a long boat can be of a
coarse model and rig and still go at good speed. About Topaz and
Sitka Explorer hull types he now says more in the same vein.
What more can be seen using peas?
Graeme
his site when I last looked. It's been there quite a while. He
doesn't just mention, but states in the first person: "... Phil's
theory starts with the idea that the boat is crashing through a sea
of frozen peas.."
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2000/0401/index.htm#HULL
%
20SHAPING
or to save pasting try
http://tinyurl.com/9s7fr
&
"...once he sent me an article about hull shaping that he was trying
to get published... THE HULL SHAPING THEORY THAT WOODENBOAT REFUSED
TO PRINT!!!
AFLOAT ON SEAS OF PEAS...
This is Phil Bolger theory..." & etc.
http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/2004/0901/index.htm#Hull
%
20Shaping2
or
http://tinyurl.com/bnks4
Gary Blankenship also reported reading a draft article shown him by
PCB concerning this (at around the same time JM saw it).
And to reiterate, SOP is a visualisation technique. It is not
the "in-the-body-plan-view-the-chine-line-bisects-angle-of-bottom-
and-sides-lines", as typified in the advanced sharpies, which is but
one derivative of Boger flow theory that can be understood by the
SOP technique.
His advanced sharpie ideas, mainly for heeling displacement hulls,
go back some time. Jim Michalak and myself were at best still only
in short pants. In fact the ideas may predate us entirely. What
really interests me now is PCB&F's more recent claims for the "deep-
pointy-sterned-dead-flat-bottomed-slender-shallow" hull (DPSDFBSS),
its developmental history, and its visualisation using SOP.
I think there is reason to believe DPSDFBSS has some history in
boats like Eeek!, the Sneakeasy type, and some States class
powerboats.
I think the "dead-flat-bottom" bit means it's kind of planing at
rest, and it's not shoving any peas about here. The "deep-pointy-
stern" bit minimises wave drag. The "slender" bit means not so many
peas are pushed aside, and that is done gently (PCB&F say "slender"
for L/B's above 5.1). The "shallow" bit is perhaps the most
important, and means that the pea pressure at the chine is low - not
so many peas have to pass around the chine and under the hull - the
peas at the sides can rise up in a quite small wave on each side
that are eased into subsiding as they rejoin at the pointy stern.
Bolger has said many times that deep hulls make large waves - they
shove a lot of peas to the side. He has said a long boat can be of a
coarse model and rig and still go at good speed. About Topaz and
Sitka Explorer hull types he now says more in the same vein.
What more can be seen using peas?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> > I wonder if Bolger got away from this hull-shape after developing
> > his "seas of peas" theory?
> > Nels
>
> FWIW, if I am not mistaken, no one has actually reported ever
actually
> reading anything from Phil Bolger that uses the words 'seas of
peas'.
> The last I remember is that someone was pretty sure that it was
> mentioned long ago in a personal letter (since gone missing) from
PCB
> to Jim Michalak, is that confirmed? I would love to read that
> writing, but I am still looking for it. Until I actually see it, I
> consider that this might be a myth.
>
> I wonder if Bolger got away from this hull-shape after developingFWIW, if I am not mistaken, no one has actually reported ever actually
> his "seas of peas" theory?
> Nels
reading anything from Phil Bolger that uses the words 'seas of peas'.
The last I remember is that someone was pretty sure that it was
mentioned long ago in a personal letter (since gone missing) from PCB
to Jim Michalak, is that confirmed? I would love to read that
writing, but I am still looking for it. Until I actually see it, I
consider that this might be a myth.
I think they come after. "Seas of Peas" drag a stern wave at higher
speeds.
Graeme
speeds.
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
> I wonder if Bolger got away from this hull-shape after developing
> his "seas of peas" theory?
>
> Nels
>
graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...> wrote: Another rockerless sterned double ender is Sitka Explorer at WLL 37'
4", BDWL 7' 2", L/B=5.2
So it maybe: Anhinga ~~> Topaz -> Sitka Explorer.?
PCB&F say about Sitka Explorer that "...the pointed stern
functionally offers WL length without the wetted surface, weight,
necessary construction effort and dynamic bulk (in following seas
for instance) of a traditional transom... It combines her narrow
fore and aft powerplant/drive assembly on a dead straight weight
carrying bottom with a... a sharp edged chine... The water flow
along this stern/aft-midsection should be efficient both at
displacement speeds and the intermediary stage before full planing,
which would only happen far beyond her target speed of 10kts. In
this rule bending hull, as indicated by her truly shallow draft, she
needs no further water plane area available from a square transom
approach..."
Graeme (who sees maybe a 2/3 scale Anhinga in a morphed 2' longer
June Bug)
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4", BDWL 7' 2", L/B=5.2
So it maybe: Anhinga ~~> Topaz -> Sitka Explorer.?
PCB&F say about Sitka Explorer that "...the pointed stern
functionally offers WL length without the wetted surface, weight,
necessary construction effort and dynamic bulk (in following seas
for instance) of a traditional transom... It combines her narrow
fore and aft powerplant/drive assembly on a dead straight weight
carrying bottom with a... a sharp edged chine... The water flow
along this stern/aft-midsection should be efficient both at
displacement speeds and the intermediary stage before full planing,
which would only happen far beyond her target speed of 10kts. In
this rule bending hull, as indicated by her truly shallow draft, she
needs no further water plane area available from a square transom
approach..."
Graeme (who sees maybe a 2/3 scale Anhinga in a morphed 2' longer
June Bug)
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"<graeme19121984@...>
>wrote:Bolger rules!!!
> Someone say Anhinga?
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@>
> >wrote:
> >...Haven't seen any other rockerless sterned double enders from
>>him (or anyone else) so was it a failure or just not successful
>>enough to be pursued?...
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS
Boating safety Boating magazine Alaska outdoors Great outdoors
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
wrote:
The file "Midsect.gif" shows a wonderfully detailed diagram for
making oarport covers. Also the water ballast tanks, which look
rather complicated as there are drains and air vents of some kind
below them.
In fact when you study all the details - it is a rather more
complicated build than at first glance.
I wonder if Bolger got away from this hull-shape after developing
his "seas of peas" theory?
Nels
wrote:
>for
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@> wrote:
> > I just can't imagine Anhinga tripping, and staying on her side
> > more than a moment with that water ballast! Something ismissing
> >from that story.in
>
> Perhaps she flooded through the open after hatch?
>
> > By the way, a boat like Anhinga would deserve quick and dirty
> > 'super-economy' construction. With CDX plywood, no fiberglass or
> > paint, air powered staple fasteners, etc.. You could build her
> aplus
> > month, guessing now....16 sheets of 1/4 plywood? $500 bucks,
> > sails. To get a boat with a three or five year lifespan, lotsof
> fun, ending with a bonfire party on the beach.of
>
> Now, if I already had the long trailer.... lots of fun, in a work
> art!Looks like all the information to build one is in the cartoons files.
>
> Graeme
>
The file "Midsect.gif" shows a wonderfully detailed diagram for
making oarport covers. Also the water ballast tanks, which look
rather complicated as there are drains and air vents of some kind
below them.
In fact when you study all the details - it is a rather more
complicated build than at first glance.
I wonder if Bolger got away from this hull-shape after developing
his "seas of peas" theory?
Nels
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:Perhaps she flooded through the open after hatch?
> I just can't imagine Anhinga tripping, and staying on her side for
> more than a moment with that water ballast! Something is missing
>from that story.
> By the way, a boat like Anhinga would deserve quick and dirtya
> 'super-economy' construction. With CDX plywood, no fiberglass or
> paint, air powered staple fasteners, etc.. You could build her in
> month, guessing now....16 sheets of 1/4 plywood? $500 bucks, plusfun, ending with a bonfire party on the beach.
> sails. To get a boat with a three or five year lifespan, lots of
Now, if I already had the long trailer.... lots of fun, in a work of
art!
Graeme
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:The group design listing has MAIB V# 6No11
> Anhinga is in which book?
> HJ
Graeme
Anhinga is in which book?
HJ
Bruce Hallman wrote:
HJ
Bruce Hallman wrote:
>> that "Sandy Bottoms" a #484 Anhinga (see BoolgerCartoons files) was
>> built though not to plan ... She tripped and
>> flooded through the aft compartment.
>>
>
> I just can't imagine Anhinga tripping, and staying on her side for
> more than a moment with that water ballast! Something is missing from
> that story.
>
> By the way, a boat like Anhinga would deserve quick and dirty
> 'super-economy' construction. With CDX plywood, no fiberglass or
> paint, air powered staple fasteners, etc.. You could build her in a
> month, guessing now....16 sheets of 1/4 plywood? $500 bucks, plus
> sails. To get a boat with a three or five year lifespan, lots of fun,
> ending with a bonfire party on the beach.
>
>
> that "Sandy Bottoms" a #484 Anhinga (see BoolgerCartoons files) wasI just can't imagine Anhinga tripping, and staying on her side for
> built though not to plan ... She tripped and
> flooded through the aft compartment.
more than a moment with that water ballast! Something is missing from
that story.
By the way, a boat like Anhinga would deserve quick and dirty
'super-economy' construction. With CDX plywood, no fiberglass or
paint, air powered staple fasteners, etc.. You could build her in a
month, guessing now....16 sheets of 1/4 plywood? $500 bucks, plus
sails. To get a boat with a three or five year lifespan, lots of fun,
ending with a bonfire party on the beach.
Another rockerless sterned double ender is Sitka Explorer at WLL 37'
4", BDWL 7' 2", L/B=5.2
So it maybe: Anhinga ~~> Topaz -> Sitka Explorer.?
PCB&F say about Sitka Explorer that "...the pointed stern
functionally offers WL length without the wetted surface, weight,
necessary construction effort and dynamic bulk (in following seas
for instance) of a traditional transom... It combines her narrow
fore and aft powerplant/drive assembly on a dead straight weight
carrying bottom with a... a sharp edged chine... The water flow
along this stern/aft-midsection should be efficient both at
displacement speeds and the intermediary stage before full planing,
which would only happen far beyond her target speed of 10kts. In
this rule bending hull, as indicated by her truly shallow draft, she
needs no further water plane area available from a square transom
approach..."
Graeme (who sees maybe a 2/3 scale Anhinga in a morphed 2' longer
June Bug)
4", BDWL 7' 2", L/B=5.2
So it maybe: Anhinga ~~> Topaz -> Sitka Explorer.?
PCB&F say about Sitka Explorer that "...the pointed stern
functionally offers WL length without the wetted surface, weight,
necessary construction effort and dynamic bulk (in following seas
for instance) of a traditional transom... It combines her narrow
fore and aft powerplant/drive assembly on a dead straight weight
carrying bottom with a... a sharp edged chine... The water flow
along this stern/aft-midsection should be efficient both at
displacement speeds and the intermediary stage before full planing,
which would only happen far beyond her target speed of 10kts. In
this rule bending hull, as indicated by her truly shallow draft, she
needs no further water plane area available from a square transom
approach..."
Graeme (who sees maybe a 2/3 scale Anhinga in a morphed 2' longer
June Bug)
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984"<graeme19121984@...>
>wrote:
> Someone say Anhinga?
> >--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@>
> >wrote:
> >...Haven't seen any other rockerless sterned double enders from
>>him (or anyone else) so was it a failure or just not successful
>>enough to be pursued?...
Someone say Anhinga?
finished plans for the 36' Economy Seagoing Cruiser; that Bolger has
said Eeek! was not much of a boat, but that its performance was
enough to suggest that the larger versions could satisfy;
that "Sandy Bottoms" a #484 Anhinga (see BoolgerCartoons files) was
built though not to plan and with consequent problems (yawl rig,
midships step fins [aka Paradox chine runners?]. She tripped and
flooded through the aft compartment. Anhinga may suffer similarly to
the original Martha Jane from lack of aft bouyancy due to
surprisingly low working freeboard. Sponsons for offshore?
In 2004 PCB wrote me that Eeek! #407 plans are not available as it
was purely a "test article", that plans of Anhinga #484 @ $200 are,
but they consider the design, though aesthetically attractive and
***_quite workable_***, to be technically obsolete, due to the
superior qualities of Birdwatcher #496.
I'd an idea that the rockerless bottom with deep pointed stern was
reminiscent of some dory designs where the deep pointed stern
dispences with the need for a skeg. However it may be, as Mark
said, the idea of the deep pointed stern is that it will gain more
in capacity than it loses in drag and wave making. Mark said look at
Topaz for another version of a deep pointed stern.
Topaz.
In discussing Topaz (see BolgerCartoons), PCB says Topaz will spend
most of her time at displacement or semi-displacement speeds... her
unorthodox stern has good flow characteristics.... He says Topaz's
stern configuration should be a more viable and attractive solution
than most. In conjunction with her overall slender shallow shape, it
can offer both a straight run for easy semi-displacement speed
behaviour and a clean flow along her tucked-in stern when she's just
sliding along at six knots. Anhinga sailing may get 4+?. (As for the
bow treatments? Maybe Anhinga under sail, and upright under oars,
probably doesn't require the "Vee" shape of the forefoot that allows
Topaz soft running at her powered displacement and semi-displacement
speeds.)
Does this:
Topaz Cruiser - Topaz Spyder #650-2:(Dimensions overall 31'4"x7'4")
..........................***LWL28'10" x BDWL 6'2" NB:___L/B=4.6***
{
Anhinga.........................: 23'3" x 5'.......NB:___L/B=4.6***
Economy Seagoing Cruiser........: 34'6" x 6'6"...........L/B 5.3
{?
Eeek!...........................: 11'6" x 2'.............L/B 5.7
mean this:
Eeek! -> Anhinga -> Economy Cruiser ~~~>(Topaz)
(and what of : Peero -> Martha Jane -> Loose Moose2)
?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>
wrote:
>--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>FWIW. I have it ( from Mark - are you there Mark?) that there are
>wrote:
>
> OK so now that eek! has been brought up.....
> What happened to the idea of the 34' "quick and dirty" offshore
> cruiser idea that eek was meant to test? In the write up (30 odd
> boats) bolger said eek had few vices.....does that mean he would
>feel comfortable with the 300% version proposed in the book?
>Haven't seen any other rockerless sterned double enders from him
>(or anyone else) so was it a failure or just not successful enough
>to be pursued?
>Jason
finished plans for the 36' Economy Seagoing Cruiser; that Bolger has
said Eeek! was not much of a boat, but that its performance was
enough to suggest that the larger versions could satisfy;
that "Sandy Bottoms" a #484 Anhinga (see BoolgerCartoons files) was
built though not to plan and with consequent problems (yawl rig,
midships step fins [aka Paradox chine runners?]. She tripped and
flooded through the aft compartment. Anhinga may suffer similarly to
the original Martha Jane from lack of aft bouyancy due to
surprisingly low working freeboard. Sponsons for offshore?
In 2004 PCB wrote me that Eeek! #407 plans are not available as it
was purely a "test article", that plans of Anhinga #484 @ $200 are,
but they consider the design, though aesthetically attractive and
***_quite workable_***, to be technically obsolete, due to the
superior qualities of Birdwatcher #496.
I'd an idea that the rockerless bottom with deep pointed stern was
reminiscent of some dory designs where the deep pointed stern
dispences with the need for a skeg. However it may be, as Mark
said, the idea of the deep pointed stern is that it will gain more
in capacity than it loses in drag and wave making. Mark said look at
Topaz for another version of a deep pointed stern.
Topaz.
In discussing Topaz (see BolgerCartoons), PCB says Topaz will spend
most of her time at displacement or semi-displacement speeds... her
unorthodox stern has good flow characteristics.... He says Topaz's
stern configuration should be a more viable and attractive solution
than most. In conjunction with her overall slender shallow shape, it
can offer both a straight run for easy semi-displacement speed
behaviour and a clean flow along her tucked-in stern when she's just
sliding along at six knots. Anhinga sailing may get 4+?. (As for the
bow treatments? Maybe Anhinga under sail, and upright under oars,
probably doesn't require the "Vee" shape of the forefoot that allows
Topaz soft running at her powered displacement and semi-displacement
speeds.)
Does this:
Topaz Cruiser - Topaz Spyder #650-2:(Dimensions overall 31'4"x7'4")
..........................***LWL28'10" x BDWL 6'2" NB:___L/B=4.6***
{
Anhinga.........................: 23'3" x 5'.......NB:___L/B=4.6***
Economy Seagoing Cruiser........: 34'6" x 6'6"...........L/B 5.3
{?
Eeek!...........................: 11'6" x 2'.............L/B 5.7
mean this:
Eeek! -> Anhinga -> Economy Cruiser ~~~>(Topaz)
(and what of : Peero -> Martha Jane -> Loose Moose2)
?
Graeme
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Stancil" <jasonstancil@...>
wrote:
>archives.
> Thanks,
> Bruce i read about a jazillion old posts from 2001 on eek and the
> antigua(?) or whatever, the 24 footer. So much stuff in the
> Jason
>
Thanks,
Bruce i read about a jazillion old posts from 2001 on eek and the
antigua(?) or whatever, the 24 footer. So much stuff in the archives.
Jason
Bruce i read about a jazillion old posts from 2001 on eek and the
antigua(?) or whatever, the 24 footer. So much stuff in the archives.
Jason
On 3/3/06, Jason Stancil <jasonstancil@...> wrote:
group about it, about four years back.
> OK so now that eek! has been brought up.....At least one Anhinga was built. There is a discussion thread on this
> What happened to the idea of the 34' "quick and dirty" offshore
> cruiser idea that eek was meant to test?
group about it, about four years back.
OK so now that eek! has been brought up.....
What happened to the idea of the 34' "quick and dirty" offshore
cruiser idea that eek was meant to test? In the write up (30 odd
boats) bolger said eek had few vices.....does that mean he would feel
comfortable with the 300% version proposed in the book? Haven't seen
any other rockerless sterned double enders from him (or anyone else)
so was it a failure or just not successful enough to be pursued?
Jason
What happened to the idea of the 34' "quick and dirty" offshore
cruiser idea that eek was meant to test? In the write up (30 odd
boats) bolger said eek had few vices.....does that mean he would feel
comfortable with the 300% version proposed in the book? Haven't seen
any other rockerless sterned double enders from him (or anyone else)
so was it a failure or just not successful enough to be pursued?
Jason