Re: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
It wasn't "bird's mouth" aka Noble System, but I made the mast for my dinghy
from construction grade Sitka spruce. Lots of knots which I cut out and
replaced with epoxy'd in chunks before shaping the pieces.
I'm figuring on using Douglas fir for the Chebacco mast. The article I read
gave a formula for adjusting the stave thickness as a function of the wood.
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
from construction grade Sitka spruce. Lots of knots which I cut out and
replaced with epoxy'd in chunks before shaping the pieces.
I'm figuring on using Douglas fir for the Chebacco mast. The article I read
gave a formula for adjusting the stave thickness as a function of the wood.
> Stave thickness:derbyrm@...
> between 0.1 and 0.2 x spar diameter - (bigger for big boats)
> (0.2 for spruce, 0.15 for Douglas Fir)
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 1:06 PM
Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
> what's the preferred wood for making birds mouth masts? I'm having a hard
> time finding good straight-grained wood here on the east coast; have done
> the 3 minor spars for my Micro out of fir, but it seems rather heavy for
> the
> 26' main mast (am going to the trouble of birdsmouth for lightness after
> all!) so I've been holding off on it.
> Woodenboat article some years ago recommended red pine, but that seems
> hard
> to find here on the Cape - everyone deals in white pine and I'm generally
> not impressed with the quality. I can get good red cedar but it seems too
> brittle for a mast.
>
> Paul L.
>
>
>
>
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I've been looking around lumberyards lately and have found that they
seem to be carrying a better grade of dimensional lumber for a higher
price. Home Depot gets all the bottom feeders. I've seen lots of
boards that were pretty straight and not too many knots, some probably
good enough for spars. The wider, longer boards tend to be better.
However, it's improtant to store the lumber straight, even if just for
a few days, as the stuff is not dry enough. I left a couple of 2X4's
that were perfectly straight in my car for a few days, and they
stopped being straight. Another wood to investigate is Port Orford
Cedar, though I suspect Doug fir is a better deal. The stuff is gorgeous.
(Speaking of POC, straight lumber, etc. Anyone in Boston area feel
like not making their own oars, paddles, etc.?)
seem to be carrying a better grade of dimensional lumber for a higher
price. Home Depot gets all the bottom feeders. I've seen lots of
boards that were pretty straight and not too many knots, some probably
good enough for spars. The wider, longer boards tend to be better.
However, it's improtant to store the lumber straight, even if just for
a few days, as the stuff is not dry enough. I left a couple of 2X4's
that were perfectly straight in my car for a few days, and they
stopped being straight. Another wood to investigate is Port Orford
Cedar, though I suspect Doug fir is a better deal. The stuff is gorgeous.
(Speaking of POC, straight lumber, etc. Anyone in Boston area feel
like not making their own oars, paddles, etc.?)
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...> wrote:
snip, but have prowled the local
> yards, big and small, and not found any planks even remotely
knot-free or
> straight - same with the dimensional lumber, 2x4's and such. I have
found
> that the quality of all lumber has dropped quite severely over the
years -
> they're growing trees like corn now, and it shows in the quality of what
> gets delivered around here. I could scarf around knots, but I would
have to
> do alot of it with the wood I'm finding; with the DF I know I could rip,
> scarf to length, rout the birdsmouth notch and glue up in pretty short
> order. snip
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Lincoln Ross <lincolnr@...> wrote:
I've made a couple of masts using the birds' mouth and tablesaw
technique. One was a straight taper, and made of almost-clear douglas
fir, 3/4" in eight-foot lengths that had to be scarfed to be long
enough. The other was lightweight at 14', made of 14' 3"x3/4" molding
stock made of hemlock (they said) at Windsor Plywood (our local cabinet
maker supply).
On the straight taper, everything was straightforward: cutting was on a
snapped line from one corner to the appropriate width at the far end,
only I did it freehand and smoothed the cuts with an old Stanley 22"
finishing plane. On the other (factory) edge is where I cut the birds'
mouth on the tablesaw. I had a little jig set up so I could cut the
90-degree cuts on a 60-degree angle, so I could get away with only six
sides, rather than eight. Assembly was two adjacent sides at a time,
laid up with epoxy in a carriage laid out on my garage floor, using ply
scraps into which I had cut a 120-degree notch, then lined up with a
taught wire. After the three parts were set up, I assembled them using
hexagonal clamps cut out of pressed wood and 1/4" plywood. I started
with one piece of wood with a hexagon cut out of it just under the size
of the largest dimension, and six others, each about 1/8" or so smaller
diameter than the previous. Thes I glued together using polyurethane
glue, because when it foamed it filled the very narrow spaces in the
joints.
On the graduated taper, I anticipated some big-time problems that never
materialized. I did more or less all the same things through assembly
of the three pairs, but rather than using the 120-degree carriage
exclusively, I started wire-clamping at the middle and worked to both
ends, using stainless wire I bought at a farm store. They went together
so easily, I did the same thing when I put the three pairs of segments
together: started by wrapping wire at the middle first, then at both
ends, then started at the middle and worked toward each end using wraps
of binders twine (I suppose bunji cords would work.) Same deal with the
glue: epoxy on the pairs, poly on the assembly.
I don't think it's that hard, but then I was just using shade-tree
mechanics to get it together. They're still (each) in one piece, and
one is stored outside in Reno, the other knocks around a garage in
Tacoma, neither gets special treatment, and they both still work.
JR Sloan, Spokane
>Okay, me too.
> Time to go heretical here.
I've made a couple of masts using the birds' mouth and tablesaw
technique. One was a straight taper, and made of almost-clear douglas
fir, 3/4" in eight-foot lengths that had to be scarfed to be long
enough. The other was lightweight at 14', made of 14' 3"x3/4" molding
stock made of hemlock (they said) at Windsor Plywood (our local cabinet
maker supply).
On the straight taper, everything was straightforward: cutting was on a
snapped line from one corner to the appropriate width at the far end,
only I did it freehand and smoothed the cuts with an old Stanley 22"
finishing plane. On the other (factory) edge is where I cut the birds'
mouth on the tablesaw. I had a little jig set up so I could cut the
90-degree cuts on a 60-degree angle, so I could get away with only six
sides, rather than eight. Assembly was two adjacent sides at a time,
laid up with epoxy in a carriage laid out on my garage floor, using ply
scraps into which I had cut a 120-degree notch, then lined up with a
taught wire. After the three parts were set up, I assembled them using
hexagonal clamps cut out of pressed wood and 1/4" plywood. I started
with one piece of wood with a hexagon cut out of it just under the size
of the largest dimension, and six others, each about 1/8" or so smaller
diameter than the previous. Thes I glued together using polyurethane
glue, because when it foamed it filled the very narrow spaces in the
joints.
On the graduated taper, I anticipated some big-time problems that never
materialized. I did more or less all the same things through assembly
of the three pairs, but rather than using the 120-degree carriage
exclusively, I started wire-clamping at the middle and worked to both
ends, using stainless wire I bought at a farm store. They went together
so easily, I did the same thing when I put the three pairs of segments
together: started by wrapping wire at the middle first, then at both
ends, then started at the middle and worked toward each end using wraps
of binders twine (I suppose bunji cords would work.) Same deal with the
glue: epoxy on the pairs, poly on the assembly.
I don't think it's that hard, but then I was just using shade-tree
mechanics to get it together. They're still (each) in one piece, and
one is stored outside in Reno, the other knocks around a garage in
Tacoma, neither gets special treatment, and they both still work.
JR Sloan, Spokane
Thanks, all, for the advice - some very good points;
Nels, the only non-standard element on my mast is that I chose to use one of
the earlier options Bolger offered, which is adding 3' to the mast height
and increasing sail area accordingly, and have added an extra reefing point
to compensate. No tabernacle. So I'll have a 26' mast to step every time I
go out, hence the decision early-on to go with birdsmouth. I did some tests
cutting notches with the tablesaw, convinced myself the router bit would be
worth the investment and bought it and so far have completed the 3 smaller
spars (2 booms, mizzen mast). But the size of the main has given me pause,
quite literally...
I've considered something like what Lincoln mentions, only my thoughts ran
somewhat in reverse - I would do some of the tapering at the upper mast by
taking off more material on the outside with the electric planer, having
adjusted the internal dimensions to accomodate this - the net result would
be the same, thinner walls higher up. Doug fir has the appeal of having
already been used for the booms and the mizzen mast, and I have a good
source for clear, straight-grained boards where they don't mind me picking
thru the stack as long as I leave things as I find them. Lincoln makes a
good point that DF would be more rugged, and this mast will be seeing alot
of handling - I hadn't thought of that aspect.
I have looked into the thick spruce scaffolding planks Peter mentions, in
fact I own 3 of them for shingling my house (an endless source of unwelcome
distraction from getting the boat in the water!), but have prowled the local
yards, big and small, and not found any planks even remotely knot-free or
straight - same with the dimensional lumber, 2x4's and such. I have found
that the quality of all lumber has dropped quite severely over the years -
they're growing trees like corn now, and it shows in the quality of what
gets delivered around here. I could scarf around knots, but I would have to
do alot of it with the wood I'm finding; with the DF I know I could rip,
scarf to length, rout the birdsmouth notch and glue up in pretty short
order. Bottom line is that at 4 years into building this thing, time is the
most scarce commodity of all in my life and I just want to go sailing!
I do have one more stop - a small local sawmill off the beaten track - where
I might find some surprises; gotta swing by there this weekend and see what
options he can offer. Then I'll be buying some wood and laying up my mast
outdoors - 26' is too long to get out of my basement!
Paul L, lifelong Micro builder...
Nels, the only non-standard element on my mast is that I chose to use one of
the earlier options Bolger offered, which is adding 3' to the mast height
and increasing sail area accordingly, and have added an extra reefing point
to compensate. No tabernacle. So I'll have a 26' mast to step every time I
go out, hence the decision early-on to go with birdsmouth. I did some tests
cutting notches with the tablesaw, convinced myself the router bit would be
worth the investment and bought it and so far have completed the 3 smaller
spars (2 booms, mizzen mast). But the size of the main has given me pause,
quite literally...
I've considered something like what Lincoln mentions, only my thoughts ran
somewhat in reverse - I would do some of the tapering at the upper mast by
taking off more material on the outside with the electric planer, having
adjusted the internal dimensions to accomodate this - the net result would
be the same, thinner walls higher up. Doug fir has the appeal of having
already been used for the booms and the mizzen mast, and I have a good
source for clear, straight-grained boards where they don't mind me picking
thru the stack as long as I leave things as I find them. Lincoln makes a
good point that DF would be more rugged, and this mast will be seeing alot
of handling - I hadn't thought of that aspect.
I have looked into the thick spruce scaffolding planks Peter mentions, in
fact I own 3 of them for shingling my house (an endless source of unwelcome
distraction from getting the boat in the water!), but have prowled the local
yards, big and small, and not found any planks even remotely knot-free or
straight - same with the dimensional lumber, 2x4's and such. I have found
that the quality of all lumber has dropped quite severely over the years -
they're growing trees like corn now, and it shows in the quality of what
gets delivered around here. I could scarf around knots, but I would have to
do alot of it with the wood I'm finding; with the DF I know I could rip,
scarf to length, rout the birdsmouth notch and glue up in pretty short
order. Bottom line is that at 4 years into building this thing, time is the
most scarce commodity of all in my life and I just want to go sailing!
I do have one more stop - a small local sawmill off the beaten track - where
I might find some surprises; gotta swing by there this weekend and see what
options he can offer. Then I'll be buying some wood and laying up my mast
outdoors - 26' is too long to get out of my basement!
Paul L, lifelong Micro builder...
I also remember seeing a table of characteristics comparing spruces,
and there were several that had strength and weight characteristics
more or less equal to Sitka spruce, but that Sitka has superior
holding power for fastenings. That's important for a mast with the
stays fastened with screwed on tangs, but not important for a
Bolger-type free standing mast.
Peter V.
and there were several that had strength and weight characteristics
more or less equal to Sitka spruce, but that Sitka has superior
holding power for fastenings. That's important for a mast with the
stays fastened with screwed on tangs, but not important for a
Bolger-type free standing mast.
Peter V.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...> wrote:
Good to hear that you are in the spar making stage, and not too
soon either,with summer looming ever larger on the season horizon!
Eastern White spruce is very nice stuff to work with and a good
source for it,at least up here,are construction companies,especially
those who do alot of scaffolding work like masons.Those
long,wide,thick and often ungainly "boards", used to provided the
flat work platform the men walk on up in the staging,are E.spruce.
Now I'm not suggesting you engage in any late nite five finger
discount activity but rather just going to the companies and
offering to "buy" a few of their older used boards. Sometimes
they'll happily let you take away a few for free,particularly if
they are in a zone requiring special permits for dumping.If they
won't sell,just ask them where they buy their stuff from.
Either way, it will be cheap and yes the boards may look all
grey and weathered to hell BUT they are close to 3" thick,12" to 14"
wide and sometimes up to 20' long! Hopefully you know someone with a
planer and jointer along with a table saw.:-)
In a matter of a couple of hours,you'd be able to dress all this
stuff down to some really sweet bits with virtually NO KNOTS and
straight grained not to mentioned very dry!
The best stuff however would be to get yer mitts on some Quebec
Northern Black Spruce....yummy! Some tight little knots(smaller then
a dime) but anular rings so close together that a cross section
looks almost"brown". Built the solid round spars on a past Elver
with this stuff and was truly impressed.Comes dirt cheap too when
scrounging around the back lots of older lumber yards,like under
$100.00 for two mast,a boomkin and one bowsprit!
Stay away from the big box type stores and drive out to the
country to visit(patronize) a small private lumberyard/mill. I
suspect the owner will be a wealth of information and not rip you
off with junk lumber........or at least I hope he doesn't!
Anyway, not sure how useful any of this is to you, but continued
best wishes for a happy launch this summer!!!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, looking forward to some pictures of the launching
too!,from along the shores of the Spring time St.Lawrence where the
ice breaker came through the Seaway just last Friday,YIPPEE!!!!!
>figured
> I asked this the other day, but didn't get a rise out of anyone so
> I'd repost under its own heading - what wood do people like to usefor
> birdsmouth spars?Hi Paul,
>
> thanks
>
> Paul L.
Good to hear that you are in the spar making stage, and not too
soon either,with summer looming ever larger on the season horizon!
Eastern White spruce is very nice stuff to work with and a good
source for it,at least up here,are construction companies,especially
those who do alot of scaffolding work like masons.Those
long,wide,thick and often ungainly "boards", used to provided the
flat work platform the men walk on up in the staging,are E.spruce.
Now I'm not suggesting you engage in any late nite five finger
discount activity but rather just going to the companies and
offering to "buy" a few of their older used boards. Sometimes
they'll happily let you take away a few for free,particularly if
they are in a zone requiring special permits for dumping.If they
won't sell,just ask them where they buy their stuff from.
Either way, it will be cheap and yes the boards may look all
grey and weathered to hell BUT they are close to 3" thick,12" to 14"
wide and sometimes up to 20' long! Hopefully you know someone with a
planer and jointer along with a table saw.:-)
In a matter of a couple of hours,you'd be able to dress all this
stuff down to some really sweet bits with virtually NO KNOTS and
straight grained not to mentioned very dry!
The best stuff however would be to get yer mitts on some Quebec
Northern Black Spruce....yummy! Some tight little knots(smaller then
a dime) but anular rings so close together that a cross section
looks almost"brown". Built the solid round spars on a past Elver
with this stuff and was truly impressed.Comes dirt cheap too when
scrounging around the back lots of older lumber yards,like under
$100.00 for two mast,a boomkin and one bowsprit!
Stay away from the big box type stores and drive out to the
country to visit(patronize) a small private lumberyard/mill. I
suspect the owner will be a wealth of information and not rip you
off with junk lumber........or at least I hope he doesn't!
Anyway, not sure how useful any of this is to you, but continued
best wishes for a happy launch this summer!!!
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan, looking forward to some pictures of the launching
too!,from along the shores of the Spring time St.Lawrence where the
ice breaker came through the Seaway just last Friday,YIPPEE!!!!!
I like spruce for spars of any kind, it's light and strong. It's
softer than fir so may need protection, but no need to add that
until you see some wear happening. I get mine from ordinary
lumberyards, it was Home Depot last time. Sitka would be very nice,
but any lumnberyard spruce has the same characteristics, only less
so. Pick out the best you can find and work around the knots, I had
to cut and scarf to get rid of the worst. I did this before
machining the individual pieces.
Jamie
softer than fir so may need protection, but no need to add that
until you see some wear happening. I get mine from ordinary
lumberyards, it was Home Depot last time. Sitka would be very nice,
but any lumnberyard spruce has the same characteristics, only less
so. Pick out the best you can find and work around the knots, I had
to cut and scarf to get rid of the worst. I did this before
machining the individual pieces.
Jamie
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...> wrote:
>
> I asked this the other day, but didn't get a rise out of anyone so
figured
> I'd repost under its own heading - what wood do people like to use
for
> birdsmouth spars?
>
> thanks
>
> Paul L.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of
> John and Kathy Trussell
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:05 PM
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
>
>
> Hose clamps and electrical ties work. Get a copy of The Rigger's
Apprentice
> by Brion Toss and learn to tie a constricter knot. This will
allow you to
> use twine to clamp (can't get much cheaper) and there are a lot of
> applications for the knot in rope work and emergency repairs.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: baysidewoodenboats
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:50 AM
> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
>
>
> David,
>
> All of the spars I've made have been tapered, with the majority
> being double-tapered. The process is really very simple.
> Firstly I determine the maximum diameter of the spar. From that I
> calculate the width of the stave required, and cut eight at that
> width.
>
> Next I cut the bird's mouth on all eight parallel sided staves.
>
> Then I calculate the stave width required to produce the
diameter at
> intermediate points (I usually divide the spar up into six equal
> length segments - in the case of masts it is usually six equal
> segments plus a seventh at the length required to go from the
step
> to the partners).
>
> Clamp one stave to a long bench or other arrangement which will
keep
> it absolutely straight and mark stave width offsets from the
> previous calculation. Mark these so that the waste will be cut
from
> the flat (i.e. non-bird's mouth) edge. Join the offsets with a
> batten and cut to the line on a bandsaw (or use a jigsaw if you
> don't have a bandsaw).
>
> Use this as a master to mark the remaining seven staves.
>
> For clamping I used to use stainless steel automotive hose
clamps,
> but now I almost always use plastic cable-ties. Cable-ties can be
> ganged together to produce the length required to get around the
> circumference of larger spars. I frequently use seventy or eighty
> ties on a sixteen foot spar. The cumulative clamping force is
> substantial.
>
> Somebody on this forum recently was discussing PCB's
specification
> of internally V cut plugs. I put these in all of my masts and
some
> yards - Just calculate the internal dimensions of the octagonal
hole
> in the spar and mark and cut the required size plug. Remember,
this
> octagonal plug will most often be tapered (or even double
tapered)
> as well. Cut the internal V and glue into position during
assembly
> of the spar.
>
> I know this sounds complicated, but believe me when I tell you
that
> it is easier to do than to write about! The key to the process is
> attention to detail, and being organised when it comes time to
glue
> up.
>
> After curing, I pour liquid epoxy into the spar at the remaining
> open end and slosh it around (in a methodical way) before pouring
> the remainder out into a container for re-use - I pour the
sealing
> solution through the spar three times. After that has partially
> cured, I glue in the remaining (usually tip) plug.
>
> Then the fun really starts - cut off the spurs to produce a
smooth
> eight-sided spar. Then plane to sixteen sides, then to thirty-two
> sides, and finally sand with a long board to a round section. To
> save labour, I sometimes talk people into an octagonal finished
> product - that really cuts down the cost and I think they look
fine.
>
> Sorry for the long posting.
>
> Ross Lillistone
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
> >
> > Ross,
> >
> > As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this
> type of
> > joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative
planter
> > covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I
> thought
> > I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not
worth
> > it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath
mast
> > that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the
> rest
> > of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
> > configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff"
> we're
> > currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying
this,
> > but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up
being
> a
> > bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to
build in
> a
> > soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any
> thoughts? Am
> > I totally daft, you reckon?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > David Graybeal
> > Portland, OR
> >
> > "It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good
> construction'
> > is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
> > methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best
> suited
> > to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic
view
> of
> > the requirements of it's use and life that are to be
expected" --
> > Howard Chapelle
> >
> > ************
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats"
<lillistone@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
> > > probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a
router to
> cut
> > > the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've
cut
> the
> > > bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade
set
> to
> > > cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts
the
> > > whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I
find
> it
> > > to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a
router.
> > >
> > > Ross Lillistone
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip
away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
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>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
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On 3/22/06, derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
lumber. Where ultra light weight yards are required, the PB&F diamond
shaped cross section box yards, like with Fiji, Yonder would be
economical in materials and light weight too.
> If price is not a consideration,$20 a board foot! I will keep culling through the Home Depot framing
>http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/sprucesparstock.php
> This is a good outfit.
lumber. Where ultra light weight yards are required, the PB&F diamond
shaped cross section box yards, like with Fiji, Yonder would be
economical in materials and light weight too.
Time to go heretical here. If you hold the outside diameter of the mast
fixed, but can thin out the inside a bit, then I'd bet doug fir would be
a very good choice. Plus, you can get clear fir without busting the
bank. I don't know if it comes with a special stain made from baby owl
blood or not. It's true that you can get a higher strength to weight
ratio with lighter wood like spruce, but only if you increase the
diameter. There'a a lot to be said for HARD wood on a mast, so that it
doesn't get beat up too much. Just so the wood isn't so hard that, when
you thin out the wall to make up for the increased strength, it isn't so
thin it buckles. That seems unlikely with birdsmouth. When you thin it
out some, then your dense wood is, on the average, at a larger diameter,
so it becomes more structurally efficient. I wonder how sugar maple
holds up in marine environments? I used to have a radio controlled
glider with an unkillable wing whose spars were made out of maple. It
made the starter motor on the winch sound like it was hooked up to a
locomotive engine. I'd be tempted to do REALLY light wood, like western
red cedar, just to hold shape, then add unidirectional carbon fiber and
outer layer of kevlar or glass cloth to protect it. But then, I've been
playing with that stuff lately.
fixed, but can thin out the inside a bit, then I'd bet doug fir would be
a very good choice. Plus, you can get clear fir without busting the
bank. I don't know if it comes with a special stain made from baby owl
blood or not. It's true that you can get a higher strength to weight
ratio with lighter wood like spruce, but only if you increase the
diameter. There'a a lot to be said for HARD wood on a mast, so that it
doesn't get beat up too much. Just so the wood isn't so hard that, when
you thin out the wall to make up for the increased strength, it isn't so
thin it buckles. That seems unlikely with birdsmouth. When you thin it
out some, then your dense wood is, on the average, at a larger diameter,
so it becomes more structurally efficient. I wonder how sugar maple
holds up in marine environments? I used to have a radio controlled
glider with an unkillable wing whose spars were made out of maple. It
made the starter motor on the winch sound like it was hooked up to a
locomotive engine. I'd be tempted to do REALLY light wood, like western
red cedar, just to hold shape, then add unidirectional carbon fiber and
outer layer of kevlar or glass cloth to protect it. But then, I've been
playing with that stuff lately.
I'm not positive, but I think that Eastern White Cedar was pretty much
wiped out by the boat building industry in the early part of the last
century (or the last part of the previous one). I remember reading once
that the Great Dismal Swamp has the last stand of Eastern White Cedar.
Patrick
Nels wrote:
wiped out by the boat building industry in the early part of the last
century (or the last part of the previous one). I remember reading once
that the Great Dismal Swamp has the last stand of Eastern White Cedar.
Patrick
Nels wrote:
>What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the Western Red
>variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?
>
>Nels
>
> What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the Western RedSomewhere Bolger remarks about a boomkin that it bent considerably
> variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?
"having been built of cedar to dimensions meant for fir." From which I
infer that cedar is more flexible. Cedars are used in hull constuction
of the Beetle cats, I believe, but I'm sure for what parts. Perhaps
the planking.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...> wrote:
Are you building to original plans or considering the taberncle
option, which Bolger recently offered?
If you taper the mast according to the design, the weight aloft is
not a major concern regarding the inherent stability of the Micro
hull. But that spar is a bit clumsy to handle if stepping it alone.
Then there is the option shown on page 228 of BWAOM, which seems to
me superior to the orignal Micro set-up.
Nels
>Western Red
>
> >What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the
> >variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?and it is
>
> maybe a bit stronger, but the stuff I've worked with was not
> straight-grained at all and had a fair number of tiny knots...
>
> I'll probably go with Doug Fir - at least I know what I'm getting,
> strong, if a little heavy.Hi Paul,
>
>
> - Paul
Are you building to original plans or considering the taberncle
option, which Bolger recently offered?
If you taper the mast according to the design, the weight aloft is
not a major concern regarding the inherent stability of the Micro
hull. But that spar is a bit clumsy to handle if stepping it alone.
Then there is the option shown on page 228 of BWAOM, which seems to
me superior to the orignal Micro set-up.
Nels
If price is not a consideration,
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/sprucesparstock.php
This is a good outfit.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/wppages/sprucesparstock.php
This is a good outfit.
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nels" <arvent@...>
To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 3:19 PM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Best wood for birdsmouth spars?
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>>
>> Shaw and Tenney say "Eastern White Spruce" is the best. I would guess
>> one needs to be on a first name basis with his sawyer to get be sure
>> that was really what one was getting.
>>http://www.shawandtenney.com/masts-and-spars.htm
>>
> Yes that is what I thought it was called, but when I did a google I
> could find nothing that related. I believe the white spruce often gets
> mixed in with the white pine, and made into regular lumber.
>
> It may be more common in Maine, Quebec and New Brunswick if you can
> get in touch with a mill that knows what it is doing.
>
> Also I think it has been negatively impacted by the spruce budworm and
> acid rain.
>
> What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the Western Red
> variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?
>
> Nels
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
> horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
> (978) 282-1349
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>
Peter,
It gets a little confusing, because Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menzeisii
- which translates as False Hemlock, IIRC) is not - botanically
speaking - a fir. Nor a hemlock. It's usually classified as a pine.
Much of the world knows it as Oregon Pine.
Do you feel smarter yet? Or, like me, just confused?
The bottom line for spars, as I understand it, is this: Doug Fir is
strong, and not too awful heavy; Sitka Spruce (or E. White) is not
quite as strong, but quite a bit lighter. Therefore the Spruce is the
preferred option because of it's high strength/weight ratio.
Minimizing the weight aloft (and especially if a mast has to be
stepped at each launch) is generally a good thing.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Always happy to share my ignorance, there's plenty to go around"
*******************
It gets a little confusing, because Douglas Fir (Pseudotsuga menzeisii
- which translates as False Hemlock, IIRC) is not - botanically
speaking - a fir. Nor a hemlock. It's usually classified as a pine.
Much of the world knows it as Oregon Pine.
Do you feel smarter yet? Or, like me, just confused?
The bottom line for spars, as I understand it, is this: Doug Fir is
strong, and not too awful heavy; Sitka Spruce (or E. White) is not
quite as strong, but quite a bit lighter. Therefore the Spruce is the
preferred option because of it's high strength/weight ratio.
Minimizing the weight aloft (and especially if a mast has to be
stepped at each launch) is generally a good thing.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Always happy to share my ignorance, there's plenty to go around"
*******************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
>
> Shaw and Tenney say "Eastern White Spruce" is the best. I would guess
> one needs to be on a first name basis with his sawyer to get be sure
> that was really what one was getting.
>http://www.shawandtenney.com/masts-and-spars.htm
>
> Keep in mind that PCB usually designs home-built masts with "fir" in
> mind. I have always assumed that he meant some eastern variety but
> that Douglas Fir was acceptable. A hollow mast gets a bit more
> diameter than a solid one, but not much. I think the computations
> usually work out to about 10%, e.g 3 3/8 inches instead of 3 inches.
>
> Peter
>What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the Western Redmaybe a bit stronger, but the stuff I've worked with was not
>variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?
straight-grained at all and had a fair number of tiny knots...
I'll probably go with Doug Fir - at least I know what I'm getting, and it is
strong, if a little heavy.
- Paul
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
could find nothing that related. I believe the white spruce often gets
mixed in with the white pine, and made into regular lumber.
It may be more common in Maine, Quebec and New Brunswick if you can
get in touch with a mill that knows what it is doing.
Also I think it has been negatively impacted by the spruce budworm and
acid rain.
What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the Western Red
variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?
Nels
>Yes that is what I thought it was called, but when I did a google I
> Shaw and Tenney say "Eastern White Spruce" is the best. I would guess
> one needs to be on a first name basis with his sawyer to get be sure
> that was really what one was getting.
>http://www.shawandtenney.com/masts-and-spars.htm
>
could find nothing that related. I believe the white spruce often gets
mixed in with the white pine, and made into regular lumber.
It may be more common in Maine, Quebec and New Brunswick if you can
get in touch with a mill that knows what it is doing.
Also I think it has been negatively impacted by the spruce budworm and
acid rain.
What about Eastern White Cedar? I am only familar with the Western Red
variety. Is the Eastern White not stronger?
Nels
Shaw and Tenney say "Eastern White Spruce" is the best. I would guess
one needs to be on a first name basis with his sawyer to get be sure
that was really what one was getting.
http://www.shawandtenney.com/masts-and-spars.htm
Keep in mind that PCB usually designs home-built masts with "fir" in
mind. I have always assumed that he meant some eastern variety but
that Douglas Fir was acceptable. A hollow mast gets a bit more
diameter than a solid one, but not much. I think the computations
usually work out to about 10%, e.g 3 3/8 inches instead of 3 inches.
Peter
one needs to be on a first name basis with his sawyer to get be sure
that was really what one was getting.
http://www.shawandtenney.com/masts-and-spars.htm
Keep in mind that PCB usually designs home-built masts with "fir" in
mind. I have always assumed that he meant some eastern variety but
that Douglas Fir was acceptable. A hollow mast gets a bit more
diameter than a solid one, but not much. I think the computations
usually work out to about 10%, e.g 3 3/8 inches instead of 3 inches.
Peter
Thanks Nels, I missed that but just went back and picked it up. Thanks to
Rick Bedard for answering the question I didn't ask, the weight.
My first 3 smaller spars are all glued up out of doug fir, but I was
concered the DF might be too heavy for the 26-foot mainmast; now armed with
this info I can confidently stroll into my local yard on Saturday and pick
up the wood I need - I'm already quite familiar with their DF stack!
this forum is great!
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Nels
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 1:41 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Best wood for birdsmouth spars?
Rick Bedard for answering the question I didn't ask, the weight.
My first 3 smaller spars are all glued up out of doug fir, but I was
concered the DF might be too heavy for the 26-foot mainmast; now armed with
this info I can confidently stroll into my local yard on Saturday and pick
up the wood I need - I'm already quite familiar with their DF stack!
this forum is great!
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Nels
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 1:41 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Best wood for birdsmouth spars?
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...> wrote:
>
> I asked this the other day, but didn't get a rise out of anyone so
figured
> I'd repost under its own heading - what wood do people like to use
for
> birdsmouth spars?
>
> thanks
>
> Paul L.
>
Hi Paul,
I thought I saw a post that answered your enquiry. Someone made a BM
mast that weighed in at 19 pounds from clear fir. That sounded great
to me!
Lestat's mast is made in the pescribed manner, from an eastern
spruce variety that is considered to be excellent - much
traditionally used for spars. But I don't know the exact name for
it. Not as light as Sitka spruce but just as strong, if not
stronger.
That would be my first choice and Douglas fir as the next choice.
You don't need the staves going the full length. Proper scarfs do
not take away from the overall strength if the wood is clear.
Nels
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
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- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Lefebvre" <paul@...> wrote:
I thought I saw a post that answered your enquiry. Someone made a BM
mast that weighed in at 19 pounds from clear fir. That sounded great
to me!
Lestat's mast is made in the pescribed manner, from an eastern
spruce variety that is considered to be excellent - much
traditionally used for spars. But I don't know the exact name for
it. Not as light as Sitka spruce but just as strong, if not
stronger.
That would be my first choice and Douglas fir as the next choice.
You don't need the staves going the full length. Proper scarfs do
not take away from the overall strength if the wood is clear.
Nels
>figured
> I asked this the other day, but didn't get a rise out of anyone so
> I'd repost under its own heading - what wood do people like to usefor
> birdsmouth spars?Hi Paul,
>
> thanks
>
> Paul L.
>
I thought I saw a post that answered your enquiry. Someone made a BM
mast that weighed in at 19 pounds from clear fir. That sounded great
to me!
Lestat's mast is made in the pescribed manner, from an eastern
spruce variety that is considered to be excellent - much
traditionally used for spars. But I don't know the exact name for
it. Not as light as Sitka spruce but just as strong, if not
stronger.
That would be my first choice and Douglas fir as the next choice.
You don't need the staves going the full length. Proper scarfs do
not take away from the overall strength if the wood is clear.
Nels
I asked this the other day, but didn't get a rise out of anyone so figured
I'd repost under its own heading - what wood do people like to use for
birdsmouth spars?
thanks
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
John and Kathy Trussell
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:05 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
Hose clamps and electrical ties work. Get a copy of The Rigger's Apprentice
by Brion Toss and learn to tie a constricter knot. This will allow you to
use twine to clamp (can't get much cheaper) and there are a lot of
applications for the knot in rope work and emergency repairs.
John T
I'd repost under its own heading - what wood do people like to use for
birdsmouth spars?
thanks
Paul L.
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
John and Kathy Trussell
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:05 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
Hose clamps and electrical ties work. Get a copy of The Rigger's Apprentice
by Brion Toss and learn to tie a constricter knot. This will allow you to
use twine to clamp (can't get much cheaper) and there are a lot of
applications for the knot in rope work and emergency repairs.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: baysidewoodenboats
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
David,
All of the spars I've made have been tapered, with the majority
being double-tapered. The process is really very simple.
Firstly I determine the maximum diameter of the spar. From that I
calculate the width of the stave required, and cut eight at that
width.
Next I cut the bird's mouth on all eight parallel sided staves.
Then I calculate the stave width required to produce the diameter at
intermediate points (I usually divide the spar up into six equal
length segments - in the case of masts it is usually six equal
segments plus a seventh at the length required to go from the step
to the partners).
Clamp one stave to a long bench or other arrangement which will keep
it absolutely straight and mark stave width offsets from the
previous calculation. Mark these so that the waste will be cut from
the flat (i.e. non-bird's mouth) edge. Join the offsets with a
batten and cut to the line on a bandsaw (or use a jigsaw if you
don't have a bandsaw).
Use this as a master to mark the remaining seven staves.
For clamping I used to use stainless steel automotive hose clamps,
but now I almost always use plastic cable-ties. Cable-ties can be
ganged together to produce the length required to get around the
circumference of larger spars. I frequently use seventy or eighty
ties on a sixteen foot spar. The cumulative clamping force is
substantial.
Somebody on this forum recently was discussing PCB's specification
of internally V cut plugs. I put these in all of my masts and some
yards - Just calculate the internal dimensions of the octagonal hole
in the spar and mark and cut the required size plug. Remember, this
octagonal plug will most often be tapered (or even double tapered)
as well. Cut the internal V and glue into position during assembly
of the spar.
I know this sounds complicated, but believe me when I tell you that
it is easier to do than to write about! The key to the process is
attention to detail, and being organised when it comes time to glue
up.
After curing, I pour liquid epoxy into the spar at the remaining
open end and slosh it around (in a methodical way) before pouring
the remainder out into a container for re-use - I pour the sealing
solution through the spar three times. After that has partially
cured, I glue in the remaining (usually tip) plug.
Then the fun really starts - cut off the spurs to produce a smooth
eight-sided spar. Then plane to sixteen sides, then to thirty-two
sides, and finally sand with a long board to a round section. To
save labour, I sometimes talk people into an octagonal finished
product - that really cuts down the cost and I think they look fine.
Sorry for the long posting.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Ross,
>
> As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this
type of
> joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
> covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I
thought
> I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
> it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
> that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the
rest
> of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
> configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff"
we're
> currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
> but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being
a
> bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in
a
> soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any
thoughts? Am
> I totally daft, you reckon?
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good
construction'
> is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
> methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best
suited
> to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view
of
> the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
> Howard Chapelle
>
> ************
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
> > probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to
cut
> > the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut
the
> > bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set
to
> > cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
> > whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find
it
> > to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
> >
> > Ross Lillistone
>
Bolger rules!!!
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Bolger rules!!!
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horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Yahoo! Groups Links
A few thoughts from my experience;
1. Be sure to assemble all the staves dry in a trial run first so you get a feel for how nicely it goes, remembering when the staves are wet with epoxy it will be a bit more difficult as they are slippery snakes, but it is still managable.
2. A cable tie every four or five feet for the initial "roll up", then nylon string spiraled around tightly works wonderfully as a clamp. I bought a small spool at a cobbler's shop for $2. Nylon doesn't absorb epoxy so it peels off the spar easier than regular twine. .
3. For whoever it was seeking long planks for the staves... Buy whatever length stock available and scarf the short staves to full length...
4. I've always used the lightest douglas fir I could find locally. My last mast, douglas fir, 3-1/2" tapered to 1-1/4" over a 23' length weighed 19 pounds before varnish!
5. Make fingerboards for your tablesaw and cut the birdsmouth with two passes.
6. Cut and plane the staves for taper after the birdsmouths are cut.
7. The individual staves can be fragile, so I usually cut 10 rather than 8. If I break one during cutting or tapering I can keep going on the project without stopping to scarf the broken sections.
Have fun with it... It's and amazing spar system.
Rick
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
1. Be sure to assemble all the staves dry in a trial run first so you get a feel for how nicely it goes, remembering when the staves are wet with epoxy it will be a bit more difficult as they are slippery snakes, but it is still managable.
2. A cable tie every four or five feet for the initial "roll up", then nylon string spiraled around tightly works wonderfully as a clamp. I bought a small spool at a cobbler's shop for $2. Nylon doesn't absorb epoxy so it peels off the spar easier than regular twine. .
3. For whoever it was seeking long planks for the staves... Buy whatever length stock available and scarf the short staves to full length...
4. I've always used the lightest douglas fir I could find locally. My last mast, douglas fir, 3-1/2" tapered to 1-1/4" over a 23' length weighed 19 pounds before varnish!
5. Make fingerboards for your tablesaw and cut the birdsmouth with two passes.
6. Cut and plane the staves for taper after the birdsmouths are cut.
7. The individual staves can be fragile, so I usually cut 10 rather than 8. If I break one during cutting or tapering I can keep going on the project without stopping to scarf the broken sections.
Have fun with it... It's and amazing spar system.
Rick
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hose clamps and electrical ties work. Get a copy of The Rigger's Apprentice by Brion Toss and learn to tie a constricter knot. This will allow you to use twine to clamp (can't get much cheaper) and there are a lot of applications for the knot in rope work and emergency repairs.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: baysidewoodenboats
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:50 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Bird's Mouth router bits
David,
All of the spars I've made have been tapered, with the majority
being double-tapered. The process is really very simple.
Firstly I determine the maximum diameter of the spar. From that I
calculate the width of the stave required, and cut eight at that
width.
Next I cut the bird's mouth on all eight parallel sided staves.
Then I calculate the stave width required to produce the diameter at
intermediate points (I usually divide the spar up into six equal
length segments - in the case of masts it is usually six equal
segments plus a seventh at the length required to go from the step
to the partners).
Clamp one stave to a long bench or other arrangement which will keep
it absolutely straight and mark stave width offsets from the
previous calculation. Mark these so that the waste will be cut from
the flat (i.e. non-bird's mouth) edge. Join the offsets with a
batten and cut to the line on a bandsaw (or use a jigsaw if you
don't have a bandsaw).
Use this as a master to mark the remaining seven staves.
For clamping I used to use stainless steel automotive hose clamps,
but now I almost always use plastic cable-ties. Cable-ties can be
ganged together to produce the length required to get around the
circumference of larger spars. I frequently use seventy or eighty
ties on a sixteen foot spar. The cumulative clamping force is
substantial.
Somebody on this forum recently was discussing PCB's specification
of internally V cut plugs. I put these in all of my masts and some
yards - Just calculate the internal dimensions of the octagonal hole
in the spar and mark and cut the required size plug. Remember, this
octagonal plug will most often be tapered (or even double tapered)
as well. Cut the internal V and glue into position during assembly
of the spar.
I know this sounds complicated, but believe me when I tell you that
it is easier to do than to write about! The key to the process is
attention to detail, and being organised when it comes time to glue
up.
After curing, I pour liquid epoxy into the spar at the remaining
open end and slosh it around (in a methodical way) before pouring
the remainder out into a container for re-use - I pour the sealing
solution through the spar three times. After that has partially
cured, I glue in the remaining (usually tip) plug.
Then the fun really starts - cut off the spurs to produce a smooth
eight-sided spar. Then plane to sixteen sides, then to thirty-two
sides, and finally sand with a long board to a round section. To
save labour, I sometimes talk people into an octagonal finished
product - that really cuts down the cost and I think they look fine.
Sorry for the long posting.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Ross,
>
> As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this
type of
> joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
> covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I
thought
> I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
> it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
> that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the
rest
> of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
> configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff"
we're
> currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
> but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being
a
> bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in
a
> soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any
thoughts? Am
> I totally daft, you reckon?
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good
construction'
> is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
> methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best
suited
> to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view
of
> the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
> Howard Chapelle
>
> ************
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
> > probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to
cut
> > the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut
the
> > bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set
to
> > cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
> > whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find
it
> > to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
> >
> > Ross Lillistone
>
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
what's the preferred wood for making birds mouth masts? I'm having a hard
time finding good straight-grained wood here on the east coast; have done
the 3 minor spars for my Micro out of fir, but it seems rather heavy for the
26' main mast (am going to the trouble of birdsmouth for lightness after
all!) so I've been holding off on it.
Woodenboat article some years ago recommended red pine, but that seems hard
to find here on the Cape - everyone deals in white pine and I'm generally
not impressed with the quality. I can get good red cedar but it seems too
brittle for a mast.
Paul L.
time finding good straight-grained wood here on the east coast; have done
the 3 minor spars for my Micro out of fir, but it seems rather heavy for the
26' main mast (am going to the trouble of birdsmouth for lightness after
all!) so I've been holding off on it.
Woodenboat article some years ago recommended red pine, but that seems hard
to find here on the Cape - everyone deals in white pine and I'm generally
not impressed with the quality. I can get good red cedar but it seems too
brittle for a mast.
Paul L.
To taper the spar you taper the staves before assembly. The wall thickness stays constant, but the spar tapers in proportion to the stave taper. The other approach is to taper the spar after assembly so that you end up with constant inside diameter and tapering outside diameter and wall thickness. Clamping, which is most easily done with hose clamps, is simple in either case.
Paul
David <arbordg@...> wrote: Ross,
As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this type of
joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I thought
I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the rest
of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff" we're
currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being a
bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in a
soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any thoughts? Am
I totally daft, you reckon?
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good construction'
is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best suited
to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view of
the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
Howard Chapelle
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@...>
wrote:
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Paul
David <arbordg@...> wrote: Ross,
As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this type of
joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I thought
I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the rest
of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff" we're
currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being a
bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in a
soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any thoughts? Am
I totally daft, you reckon?
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good construction'
is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best suited
to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view of
the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
Howard Chapelle
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@...>
wrote:
>Bolger rules!!!
> I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
> probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to cut
> the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut the
> bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set to
> cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
> whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find it
> to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
>
> Ross Lillistone
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
SPONSORED LINKS
Boating magazine Alaska outdoors Boating safety Great outdoors
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "bolger" on the web.
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---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi David --
A few thoughts on birdsmouth masts:
I made my Cormorant masts birdsmouth style, cutting the groove with
two passes on the table saw. It is very helpful to fashion some
clamp-on finger-boards to keep the stave sprung well against the table
and well against the guide. Having two or even three people would
really be a big help. I tried cutting these 20'-long staves by myself,
and at certain points they'd try to leap up away from the blade,
ruining the continuity of the groove. As a woodworker you probably
have a dozen tricks up your sleeve to prevent this, but I thought I'd
mention it anyway . . .
Also, regarding taper: I let mine have a straight run for 6', then a
straight taper from there to the top, with the base being 5 1/4"
diameter, if I recall correctly, and the top at 3". (I cut the taper
before I cut the 90-degree groove.) There probably is a theoretical
gap where the straight runs into the taper, but in reality it all
flows pretty smoothly. Thickened epoxy easily fills whatever openings
there are.
For clamping, get a spool of strong nylon monofilament (maybe 30 or 40
lb.) or some nylon mason's twine. Get your staves all buttered up with
thickened epoxy, use a couple of hose clamps or sections of PVC pipe
to get them all into the intended circle -- then wrap the nylon line
tight, pulling hard for each trip around. The nylon stretches and then
pulls back upon itself. Try to get a wrap every couple of inches, all
the way up the mast. Wonderful uniform clamping force.
When the staves are all clamped up like this but before the epoxy
sets, you can coax the whole into a perfectly straight line if there
seems to be any curve to it. Just a whack here or there and the whole
mass resets.
Once the epoxy is set, the string all comes out pretty easily, and
then you begin planing/sanding to round.
All best,
Garth
A few thoughts on birdsmouth masts:
I made my Cormorant masts birdsmouth style, cutting the groove with
two passes on the table saw. It is very helpful to fashion some
clamp-on finger-boards to keep the stave sprung well against the table
and well against the guide. Having two or even three people would
really be a big help. I tried cutting these 20'-long staves by myself,
and at certain points they'd try to leap up away from the blade,
ruining the continuity of the groove. As a woodworker you probably
have a dozen tricks up your sleeve to prevent this, but I thought I'd
mention it anyway . . .
Also, regarding taper: I let mine have a straight run for 6', then a
straight taper from there to the top, with the base being 5 1/4"
diameter, if I recall correctly, and the top at 3". (I cut the taper
before I cut the 90-degree groove.) There probably is a theoretical
gap where the straight runs into the taper, but in reality it all
flows pretty smoothly. Thickened epoxy easily fills whatever openings
there are.
For clamping, get a spool of strong nylon monofilament (maybe 30 or 40
lb.) or some nylon mason's twine. Get your staves all buttered up with
thickened epoxy, use a couple of hose clamps or sections of PVC pipe
to get them all into the intended circle -- then wrap the nylon line
tight, pulling hard for each trip around. The nylon stretches and then
pulls back upon itself. Try to get a wrap every couple of inches, all
the way up the mast. Wonderful uniform clamping force.
When the staves are all clamped up like this but before the epoxy
sets, you can coax the whole into a perfectly straight line if there
seems to be any curve to it. Just a whack here or there and the whole
mass resets.
Once the epoxy is set, the string all comes out pretty easily, and
then you begin planing/sanding to round.
All best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Ross,
>
> As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this type of
> joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
> covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I thought
> I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
> it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
> that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the rest
> of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
> configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff" we're
> currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
> but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being a
> bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in a
> soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any thoughts? Am
> I totally daft, you reckon?
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
David,
All of the spars I've made have been tapered, with the majority
being double-tapered. The process is really very simple.
Firstly I determine the maximum diameter of the spar. From that I
calculate the width of the stave required, and cut eight at that
width.
Next I cut the bird's mouth on all eight parallel sided staves.
Then I calculate the stave width required to produce the diameter at
intermediate points (I usually divide the spar up into six equal
length segments - in the case of masts it is usually six equal
segments plus a seventh at the length required to go from the step
to the partners).
Clamp one stave to a long bench or other arrangement which will keep
it absolutely straight and mark stave width offsets from the
previous calculation. Mark these so that the waste will be cut from
the flat (i.e. non-bird's mouth) edge. Join the offsets with a
batten and cut to the line on a bandsaw (or use a jigsaw if you
don't have a bandsaw).
Use this as a master to mark the remaining seven staves.
For clamping I used to use stainless steel automotive hose clamps,
but now I almost always use plastic cable-ties. Cable-ties can be
ganged together to produce the length required to get around the
circumference of larger spars. I frequently use seventy or eighty
ties on a sixteen foot spar. The cumulative clamping force is
substantial.
Somebody on this forum recently was discussing PCB's specification
of internally V cut plugs. I put these in all of my masts and some
yards - Just calculate the internal dimensions of the octagonal hole
in the spar and mark and cut the required size plug. Remember, this
octagonal plug will most often be tapered (or even double tapered)
as well. Cut the internal V and glue into position during assembly
of the spar.
I know this sounds complicated, but believe me when I tell you that
it is easier to do than to write about! The key to the process is
attention to detail, and being organised when it comes time to glue
up.
After curing, I pour liquid epoxy into the spar at the remaining
open end and slosh it around (in a methodical way) before pouring
the remainder out into a container for re-use - I pour the sealing
solution through the spar three times. After that has partially
cured, I glue in the remaining (usually tip) plug.
Then the fun really starts - cut off the spurs to produce a smooth
eight-sided spar. Then plane to sixteen sides, then to thirty-two
sides, and finally sand with a long board to a round section. To
save labour, I sometimes talk people into an octagonal finished
product - that really cuts down the cost and I think they look fine.
Sorry for the long posting.
Ross Lillistone
All of the spars I've made have been tapered, with the majority
being double-tapered. The process is really very simple.
Firstly I determine the maximum diameter of the spar. From that I
calculate the width of the stave required, and cut eight at that
width.
Next I cut the bird's mouth on all eight parallel sided staves.
Then I calculate the stave width required to produce the diameter at
intermediate points (I usually divide the spar up into six equal
length segments - in the case of masts it is usually six equal
segments plus a seventh at the length required to go from the step
to the partners).
Clamp one stave to a long bench or other arrangement which will keep
it absolutely straight and mark stave width offsets from the
previous calculation. Mark these so that the waste will be cut from
the flat (i.e. non-bird's mouth) edge. Join the offsets with a
batten and cut to the line on a bandsaw (or use a jigsaw if you
don't have a bandsaw).
Use this as a master to mark the remaining seven staves.
For clamping I used to use stainless steel automotive hose clamps,
but now I almost always use plastic cable-ties. Cable-ties can be
ganged together to produce the length required to get around the
circumference of larger spars. I frequently use seventy or eighty
ties on a sixteen foot spar. The cumulative clamping force is
substantial.
Somebody on this forum recently was discussing PCB's specification
of internally V cut plugs. I put these in all of my masts and some
yards - Just calculate the internal dimensions of the octagonal hole
in the spar and mark and cut the required size plug. Remember, this
octagonal plug will most often be tapered (or even double tapered)
as well. Cut the internal V and glue into position during assembly
of the spar.
I know this sounds complicated, but believe me when I tell you that
it is easier to do than to write about! The key to the process is
attention to detail, and being organised when it comes time to glue
up.
After curing, I pour liquid epoxy into the spar at the remaining
open end and slosh it around (in a methodical way) before pouring
the remainder out into a container for re-use - I pour the sealing
solution through the spar three times. After that has partially
cured, I glue in the remaining (usually tip) plug.
Then the fun really starts - cut off the spurs to produce a smooth
eight-sided spar. Then plane to sixteen sides, then to thirty-two
sides, and finally sand with a long board to a round section. To
save labour, I sometimes talk people into an octagonal finished
product - that really cuts down the cost and I think they look fine.
Sorry for the long posting.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
>
> Ross,
>
> As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this
type of
> joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
> covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I
thought
> I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
> it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
> that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the
rest
> of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
> configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff"
we're
> currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
> but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being
a
> bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in
a
> soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any
thoughts? Am
> I totally daft, you reckon?
>
> Cheers,
> David Graybeal
> Portland, OR
>
> "It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good
construction'
> is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
> methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best
suited
> to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view
of
> the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
> Howard Chapelle
>
> ************
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
> > probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to
cut
> > the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut
the
> > bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set
to
> > cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
> > whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find
it
> > to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
> >
> > Ross Lillistone
>
Ross,
As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this type of
joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I thought
I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the rest
of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff" we're
currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being a
bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in a
soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any thoughts? Am
I totally daft, you reckon?
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good construction'
is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best suited
to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view of
the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
Howard Chapelle
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@...>
wrote:
As a professional woodworker, I've done a few pieces with this type of
joinery - from a flagpole to fifty 36" diameter decorative planter
covers. I have yet to use a router bit for a birdsmouth cut. I thought
I might buy one, and try it - but from your account, it's not worth
it. I have a question for you. Have you ever tried a birdsmath mast
that was straight for a bit at the base, then tapered along the rest
of it's length? I have been entertaining vague ideas of such a
configuration for the mast of the M. Storer "Goat Island Skiff" we're
currently rigging for sail. I've never heard of anyone trying this,
but I thought it might be worth a try. Clamping could end up being a
bugger. I'm also thinking maybe it'd make sense to try to build in a
soft transition from the straight run to the tapered. Any thoughts? Am
I totally daft, you reckon?
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"It may be well to emphasize again the fact that 'good construction'
is not adherence to a narrow selection of materials & building
methods; it is, rather, the use of the materials & methods best suited
to the boats model and to the pocketbook, with the realistic view of
the requirements of it's use and life that are to be expected" --
Howard Chapelle
************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "baysidewoodenboats" <lillistone@...>
wrote:
>
> I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
> probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to cut
> the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut the
> bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set to
> cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
> whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find it
> to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
>
> Ross Lillistone
I've made many bird's mouth spars over the last seven years -
probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to cut
the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut the
bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set to
cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find it
to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
Ross Lillistone
probably getting close to twenty by now. I only used a router to cut
the bird's mouth on the very first - on every one since I've cut the
bird's mouth by two passes over a table saw with the blade set to
cut 45 degrees. This results in far fewer splinters and cuts the
whole lot in a fraction of the time taken with a router. I find it
to be much more controllable, and safer than when using a router.
Ross Lillistone
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
> >
> > I finally broke down and bought the 8-sided bit offered by Lee
> Valley.
> > (First I had to get a router that could swing 1/2" shaft bits.
Then
> I had
> > to make double sure I hadn't already bought one.)
> >
> Hi Roger,
>
> Are you planning to make your mast rounded and with a constant
taper
> all the way up?
>
> The reason I ask is because the mast as drawn for Chebacco is only
> tapered for the upper 7 feet or so and is square for the lower
3'6".
> There is no taper in the mast for the lenght where the gaff jaws
run?
>
> Nels
>
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
Are you planning to make your mast rounded and with a constant taper
all the way up?
The reason I ask is because the mast as drawn for Chebacco is only
tapered for the upper 7 feet or so and is square for the lower 3'6".
There is no taper in the mast for the lenght where the gaff jaws run?
Nels
>Valley.
> I finally broke down and bought the 8-sided bit offered by Lee
> (First I had to get a router that could swing 1/2" shaft bits. ThenI had
> to make double sure I hadn't already bought one.)Hi Roger,
>
Are you planning to make your mast rounded and with a constant taper
all the way up?
The reason I ask is because the mast as drawn for Chebacco is only
tapered for the upper 7 feet or so and is square for the lower 3'6".
There is no taper in the mast for the lenght where the gaff jaws run?
Nels
I finally broke down and bought the 8-sided bit offered by Lee Valley.
(First I had to get a router that could swing 1/2" shaft bits. Then I had
to make double sure I hadn't already bought one.)
I haven't made any sawdust yet, but I was pleasantly surprised by the insert
which described all manner of projects which used the technique and which
provided tables for shapes from cones to cylinders. It makes a great case
for buying their other bits.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45160&cat=1,46168,46174
Now I've got to make some floor space in the barn to move the router table
from the basement. (A 20' boat sure is a lot bigger than one that's only
ten feet LOA.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Dayawl.html
(First I had to get a router that could swing 1/2" shaft bits. Then I had
to make double sure I hadn't already bought one.)
I haven't made any sawdust yet, but I was pleasantly surprised by the insert
which described all manner of projects which used the technique and which
provided tables for shapes from cones to cylinders. It makes a great case
for buying their other bits.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45160&cat=1,46168,46174
Now I've got to make some floor space in the barn to move the router table
from the basement. (A 20' boat sure is a lot bigger than one that's only
ten feet LOA.)
Roger
derbyrm@...
http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/Dayawl.html