Re: [bolger] Re: Fibreglass resin or epoxy
Thanks for the ref Nels,now downloaded.The first firm
I approached manufacture glass fibre products as well
as supplying the raw materials retail.The second was a
supplier to the trade but not a manufacturer.The guy
who had taken the last of his 4oz cloth(both 4oz and
10oz cloths are approx 1 metre wide)and some of the
10oz manufactures fibreglass canoes,although I assume
that these are straight fibreglass and not composite.
Didn't have time to go into the detail about the
'accelerator' which sounded like a wetting out resin
rather than a catalyst.I'm always a bit suspicious
about 'leisure industry' products,since this is
generally an excuse for overcharging
Cheers
Andy Airey
Seems to me you are approaching the wrong suppliers.
If these are
fabicators of GRP molded products they are probably
not too familar
with your requirements. (Been there, done that.)
For example, 100 meters of 10 oz. glass is not enough
information.
How wide is the glass? Also 10 oz. will soak up a lot
of epoxy.
If they have to order in the epoxy, why not order your
own and
bypass the middle man? Also I would not use a
proprietary
accelerator, without consulting with the expoxy
manufacturer.
Maybe try this for starters - and download the free
manual.
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/
or Google marine epoxies U.K.
Nels
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I approached manufacture glass fibre products as well
as supplying the raw materials retail.The second was a
supplier to the trade but not a manufacturer.The guy
who had taken the last of his 4oz cloth(both 4oz and
10oz cloths are approx 1 metre wide)and some of the
10oz manufactures fibreglass canoes,although I assume
that these are straight fibreglass and not composite.
Didn't have time to go into the detail about the
'accelerator' which sounded like a wetting out resin
rather than a catalyst.I'm always a bit suspicious
about 'leisure industry' products,since this is
generally an excuse for overcharging
Cheers
Andy Airey
Seems to me you are approaching the wrong suppliers.
If these are
fabicators of GRP molded products they are probably
not too familar
with your requirements. (Been there, done that.)
For example, 100 meters of 10 oz. glass is not enough
information.
How wide is the glass? Also 10 oz. will soak up a lot
of epoxy.
If they have to order in the epoxy, why not order your
own and
bypass the middle man? Also I would not use a
proprietary
accelerator, without consulting with the expoxy
manufacturer.
Maybe try this for starters - and download the free
manual.
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/
or Google marine epoxies U.K.
Nels
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
fabicators of GRP molded products they are probably not too familar
with your requirements. (Been there, done that.)
For example, 100 meters of 10 oz. glass is not enough information.
How wide is the glass? Also 10 oz. will soak up a lot of epoxy.
If they have to order in the epoxy, why not order your own and
bypass the middle man? Also I would not use a proprietary
accelerator, without consulting with the expoxy manufacturer.
Maybe try this for starters - and download the free manual.
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/
or Google marine epoxies U.K.
Nels
>Seems to me you are approaching the wrong suppliers. If these are
> Thankyou eveyone who replied to me.I tried another
> potential supplier on the way back from a delivery run
> yesterday.He does 4oz cloth but it's about 4-500 GBP
> per roll(not sure about the length).Anyway he was
> temporarily out of stock.He offered us a good deal on
> 10oz cloth - 120GBP for a 100 metre roll - but would
> this be a bit heavy for the job.He mentioned a resin
> product called an accelerator that you could use to
> wet out the wood and cloth but I've not come across
> this elsewhere.He can supply epoxy but has to order it
> in and since it was after his normal closing time and
> we were both in a rush I didn't pursue this.Another
> product I've come across which may have possibilities
> for internal uses in the bilges is called Cromapol
> F,which is a semi acrylic resin paste dispersed in
> solvent,and used in roofing.Works out about 32GBP for
> a 5 kilogram tin.Usually available in black or grey
> although the manufacturers say that it is also
> available in white.The formulation allegedly allows
> trapped moisture to evaporate out
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
fabicators of GRP molded products they are probably not too familar
with your requirements. (Been there, done that.)
For example, 100 meters of 10 oz. glass is not enough information.
How wide is the glass? Also 10 oz. will soak up a lot of epoxy.
If they have to order in the epoxy, why not order your own and
bypass the middle man? Also I would not use a proprietary
accelerator, without consulting with the expoxy manufacturer.
Maybe try this for starters - and download the free manual.
http://www.epoxy-resins.co.uk/
or Google marine epoxies U.K.
Nels
Thankyou eveyone who replied to me.I tried another
potential supplier on the way back from a delivery run
yesterday.He does 4oz cloth but it's about 4-500 GBP
per roll(not sure about the length).Anyway he was
temporarily out of stock.He offered us a good deal on
10oz cloth - 120GBP for a 100 metre roll - but would
this be a bit heavy for the job.He mentioned a resin
product called an accelerator that you could use to
wet out the wood and cloth but I've not come across
this elsewhere.He can supply epoxy but has to order it
in and since it was after his normal closing time and
we were both in a rush I didn't pursue this.Another
product I've come across which may have possibilities
for internal uses in the bilges is called Cromapol
F,which is a semi acrylic resin paste dispersed in
solvent,and used in roofing.Works out about 32GBP for
a 5 kilogram tin.Usually available in black or grey
although the manufacturers say that it is also
available in white.The formulation allegedly allows
trapped moisture to evaporate out
Cheers
Andy Airey
--- Bill Hamm <griff10us@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
disolves in
the base of that resin.
Point though is obvious, it doesn't disolve in epoxy.
Mat is often looked upon as a poor sibling to cloth,
but if you were
laminating a glass boat from one of the esters/glass
it's pretty
much required.
Bill H.
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
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potential supplier on the way back from a delivery run
yesterday.He does 4oz cloth but it's about 4-500 GBP
per roll(not sure about the length).Anyway he was
temporarily out of stock.He offered us a good deal on
10oz cloth - 120GBP for a 100 metre roll - but would
this be a bit heavy for the job.He mentioned a resin
product called an accelerator that you could use to
wet out the wood and cloth but I've not come across
this elsewhere.He can supply epoxy but has to order it
in and since it was after his normal closing time and
we were both in a rush I didn't pursue this.Another
product I've come across which may have possibilities
for internal uses in the bilges is called Cromapol
F,which is a semi acrylic resin paste dispersed in
solvent,and used in roofing.Works out about 32GBP for
a 5 kilogram tin.Usually available in black or grey
although the manufacturers say that it is also
available in white.The formulation allegedly allows
trapped moisture to evaporate out
Cheers
Andy Airey
--- Bill Hamm <griff10us@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
>>The styrene remains in theUm...styrene is the base for polyester resin, it just
> laminate as a kind of unwanted filler.<<
disolves in
the base of that resin.
Point though is obvious, it doesn't disolve in epoxy.
Mat is often looked upon as a poor sibling to cloth,
but if you were
laminating a glass boat from one of the esters/glass
it's pretty
much required.
Bill H.
> Dear Andrew: You mentioned in your first messageis
> that your dealer was planning to sell you fiberglas
> mat, which nobody seems to have picked up on. Mat
> intended for use with polyester resins. It isbonded
> together with styrenes which dissove in thepolyester
> but not in epoxies. The styrene remains in thecompatible
> laminate as a kind of unwanted filler. As a result
> most sources that I've seen suggest using a
> cloth with epoxy, most often about 6oz weight totype
> ensure good wetting out.
> Good luck.
> Eric
>
> --- willers32 <mwagner@...> wrote:
>
> > My understanding of the situation is this -
> > polyester resin (standard
> > fiberglassing resin) tends to be quite thick (high
> > viscosity). This
> > means that it doesn't penetrate into the fibers of
> > the wood. Epoxy, on
> > the other hand, is available in a low viscosity
> > that penetrates.a
> > The theory is that by penetrating deeply into the
> > wood fibers before
> > setting up, the epoxy/glass/wood combination forms
> > matrix bond which1995.
> > is virtually unbreakable.
> >
> > As for experience. I've built two boats with the
> > epoxy/glass/plywood
> > method. The first was a Micro that I built in
> > I sailed it forTo
> > eight years before selling it to build my AS-29.
> > my knowledge, thedo
> > Micro is still afloat and has not had any
> > delaminations. The AS-29 was
> > launched last spring and has had no leaks or
> > delaminations so far.
> >
> > On the other hand, I had a dingy that was built by
> > someone else using
> > the polyester/glass/wood method. The junk man just
> > took it away as it
> > had rotted rather severely. There were many places
> > where the glass had
> > delaminated from the wood.
> >
> > I would use epoxy. Be sure you buy a good quality,
> > low viscosity
> > epoxy. I like System Three, but there are several
> > others out there
> > that are probably as good or better.
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY
> > <andyairey@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi All
> > >
> > > I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> > > Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and
> > resin
> > > but have been told that fibreglass resins do not
> > stick
> > > too well to wood and that I should use epoxy
> > instead
> > > of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will
> > sell me
> > > the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> > > cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to
> > it___________________________________________________________
> > > myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> > > timewise at the moment
> > > Cheers
> > > Andy Airey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> >print
> > > Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality
> > service from just'Ed,
> > 8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
> > respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no
> > thanks, Fred' postsposts,
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your
> > and snip awayprotection around
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
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- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
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Andy,
About 35 yrs. ago I sheathed a wood sailboat. It was a Holiday Jr.
keel sloop from Alsmeer, Netherlands. It was planked with wide
edge-glued mahogany planks. (It was never designed to be
caulked). Due to spending time in a heated boat-house some
seams had opened below the waterline. I sheathed to about 8"
above the waterline.
I could not turn it over so I had to work from underneath. I used
polypropylene cloth (Dynel) and epoxy resin. It worked because
the Dynel cloth is lighter than an equal volume of epoxy resin so
it tends to float up into the resin against the hull. (This same
characteristic of Dynel can cause problems when working from
above). Polypropylene also is more elastic than glass so it
withstands the dimensional changes of the solid wood
better.While it was still in the green cure state I washed off the
amine blush then squeegeed on an epoxy fairing compound.
After a bit of sanding, I painted and it looked fine.
I sailed the boat 4 more years free of leaks then sold it. I have
seen it around from time to time, so I guess it is still afloat.
Vince
About 35 yrs. ago I sheathed a wood sailboat. It was a Holiday Jr.
keel sloop from Alsmeer, Netherlands. It was planked with wide
edge-glued mahogany planks. (It was never designed to be
caulked). Due to spending time in a heated boat-house some
seams had opened below the waterline. I sheathed to about 8"
above the waterline.
I could not turn it over so I had to work from underneath. I used
polypropylene cloth (Dynel) and epoxy resin. It worked because
the Dynel cloth is lighter than an equal volume of epoxy resin so
it tends to float up into the resin against the hull. (This same
characteristic of Dynel can cause problems when working from
above). Polypropylene also is more elastic than glass so it
withstands the dimensional changes of the solid wood
better.While it was still in the green cure state I washed off the
amine blush then squeegeed on an epoxy fairing compound.
After a bit of sanding, I painted and it looked fine.
I sailed the boat 4 more years free of leaks then sold it. I have
seen it around from time to time, so I guess it is still afloat.
Vince
>>The styrene remains in theUm...styrene is the base for polyester resin, it just disolves in
> laminate as a kind of unwanted filler.<<
the base of that resin.
Point though is obvious, it doesn't disolve in epoxy.
Mat is often looked upon as a poor sibling to cloth, but if you were
laminating a glass boat from one of the esters/glass it's pretty
much required.
Bill H.
> Dear Andrew: You mentioned in your first message
> that your dealer was planning to sell you fiberglas
> mat, which nobody seems to have picked up on. Mat is
> intended for use with polyester resins. It is bonded
> together with styrenes which dissove in the polyester
> but not in epoxies. The styrene remains in the
> laminate as a kind of unwanted filler. As a result
> most sources that I've seen suggest using a compatible
> cloth with epoxy, most often about 6oz weight to
> ensure good wetting out.
> Good luck.
> Eric
>
> --- willers32 <mwagner@...> wrote:
>
> > My understanding of the situation is this -
> > polyester resin (standard
> > fiberglassing resin) tends to be quite thick (high
> > viscosity). This
> > means that it doesn't penetrate into the fibers of
> > the wood. Epoxy, on
> > the other hand, is available in a low viscosity type
> > that penetrates.
> > The theory is that by penetrating deeply into the
> > wood fibers before
> > setting up, the epoxy/glass/wood combination forms a
> > matrix bond which
> > is virtually unbreakable.
> >
> > As for experience. I've built two boats with the
> > epoxy/glass/plywood
> > method. The first was a Micro that I built in 1995.
> > I sailed it for
> > eight years before selling it to build my AS-29. To
> > my knowledge, the
> > Micro is still afloat and has not had any
> > delaminations. The AS-29 was
> > launched last spring and has had no leaks or
> > delaminations so far.
> >
> > On the other hand, I had a dingy that was built by
> > someone else using
> > the polyester/glass/wood method. The junk man just
> > took it away as it
> > had rotted rather severely. There were many places
> > where the glass had
> > delaminated from the wood.
> >
> > I would use epoxy. Be sure you buy a good quality,
> > low viscosity
> > epoxy. I like System Three, but there are several
> > others out there
> > that are probably as good or better.
> >
> > --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY
> > <andyairey@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi All
> > >
> > > I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> > > Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and
> > resin
> > > but have been told that fibreglass resins do not
> > stick
> > > too well to wood and that I should use epoxy
> > instead
> > > of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will
> > sell me
> > > the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> > > cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do
> > it
> > > myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> > > timewise at the moment
> > > Cheers
> > > Andy Airey
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ___________________________________________________________
> >
> > > Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print
> > service from just
> > 8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolger rules!!!
> > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
> > respamming, or flogging dead horses
> > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> > thanks, Fred' posts
> > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> > and snip away
> > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> > Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
> > - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > - Open discussion:
> >bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
Greetings,
I can speak from experience. When I was 14, my father and I glassed a cold
molded plywood runabout that had hit a log at speed and stove up. We used
incompatible materials and the whole thing came off. If I recall correctly
after 30+ years, in our case it was polyester resin and glass fiber. It
seemed to wet out ok, but several weeks afterwards the resin came away from
the cloth. The cloth then peeled in sheets. Dad redid the job using glass
and epoxy and the boat was in service for several years before my cousin
outgrew it and put it in the yard.
CCW
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
JJ Johnson
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 1:56 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglass resin or epoxy
ANDREW AIREY
One more thing Andrew, Make sure that the glass you use is made for use
with the epoxy resins, not for the polyester or vinylester resins. You
will have much less trouble getting it to wet out.
Fair winds and smooth sailing
JJ & Irene
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
I can speak from experience. When I was 14, my father and I glassed a cold
molded plywood runabout that had hit a log at speed and stove up. We used
incompatible materials and the whole thing came off. If I recall correctly
after 30+ years, in our case it was polyester resin and glass fiber. It
seemed to wet out ok, but several weeks afterwards the resin came away from
the cloth. The cloth then peeled in sheets. Dad redid the job using glass
and epoxy and the boat was in service for several years before my cousin
outgrew it and put it in the yard.
CCW
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
JJ Johnson
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 1:56 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Fibreglass resin or epoxy
ANDREW AIREY
One more thing Andrew, Make sure that the glass you use is made for use
with the epoxy resins, not for the polyester or vinylester resins. You
will have much less trouble getting it to wet out.
Fair winds and smooth sailing
JJ & Irene
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
ANDREW AIREY
One more thing Andrew, Make sure that the glass you use is made for use
with the epoxy resins, not for the polyester or vinylester resins. You
will have much less trouble getting it to wet out.
Fair winds and smooth sailing
JJ & Irene
One more thing Andrew, Make sure that the glass you use is made for use
with the epoxy resins, not for the polyester or vinylester resins. You
will have much less trouble getting it to wet out.
Fair winds and smooth sailing
JJ & Irene
ANDREW AIREY
Definitely go with the epoxy, and while you are glassing the outside,
coat everything in sight with epoxy, and if you find any cracks, fill
these also but treat the wood with a preservative first. But first,
pick up a copy of "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", it will
tell everything you ever wanted to know about using epoxy with wood,
and probably much more. I am NOT pushing WEST System products, just
epoxy over polyester. Personally I use RAKA band of epoxy, but the
Gougeon book got me started way back in the dark ages of epoxy/wood
saturation techniques for building boats.
Cheers
JJ & Irene
Definitely go with the epoxy, and while you are glassing the outside,
coat everything in sight with epoxy, and if you find any cracks, fill
these also but treat the wood with a preservative first. But first,
pick up a copy of "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction", it will
tell everything you ever wanted to know about using epoxy with wood,
and probably much more. I am NOT pushing WEST System products, just
epoxy over polyester. Personally I use RAKA band of epoxy, but the
Gougeon book got me started way back in the dark ages of epoxy/wood
saturation techniques for building boats.
Cheers
JJ & Irene
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
> but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
> too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
> of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
> the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
> myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> timewise at the moment
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just
8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>
Hi Bruce--
I ordered my Cormorant sails from Rolly Tasker, in January 2005, just
weeks after the tsunami. Their employees and workshop were unscathed
-- I guess they are inland enough to have been out of harm's way.
I e-mailed them the sail plans and my credit card info. It was six
months before my boat was going to be ready, but I ordered early
because I'd heard stories of sailmakers taking forever to finish
sails, and I didn't want to miss the summer sailing season. Beautiful,
strong, very well-made sails showed up at my door *three weeks* later.
There is a flat DHL shipping charge of $150, which probably makes
Rolly Tasker uneconomical for smaller sails. My sails were quoted at
$2000 by a couple of a US sailmakers, and Tasker did them for about
half that.
I think the Duckworks sail prices are now competitive with Tasker's.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm
All best,
Garth
I ordered my Cormorant sails from Rolly Tasker, in January 2005, just
weeks after the tsunami. Their employees and workshop were unscathed
-- I guess they are inland enough to have been out of harm's way.
I e-mailed them the sail plans and my credit card info. It was six
months before my boat was going to be ready, but I ordered early
because I'd heard stories of sailmakers taking forever to finish
sails, and I didn't want to miss the summer sailing season. Beautiful,
strong, very well-made sails showed up at my door *three weeks* later.
There is a flat DHL shipping charge of $150, which probably makes
Rolly Tasker uneconomical for smaller sails. My sails were quoted at
$2000 by a couple of a US sailmakers, and Tasker did them for about
half that.
I think the Duckworks sail prices are now competitive with Tasker's.
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/sails.htm
All best,
Garth
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
>
> I have been curious about this sailmaker in Phuket, and I bet that the
> people there could use the work after the tsunami.
>
>http://www.rollytasker.com/
>
Andy,
It will help if we start by getting the terminology right. Fiberglass
is the woven (cloth), non-woven (mat), or chopped glass fiber
component of a composite called FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic).
This composite is sometimes called "fiberglass" for short - as in, "I
just bought a 19' fiberglass sailboat" - but that shorthand is not
precisely accurate. Glass fiber (fiberglass) is the most commonly used
fiber, but there are others such as Kevlar, etc. (don't worry about
them in your situation, they are for specific, advanced applications).
Another side-note: the other component of FRP composite in your
hypothetical new sailboat would be gelcoat. Gelcoat is the smooth,
paintlike, water-resistant, decorative surface of the boat. It
probably wouldn't be used in the application you're talking about.
The other main component of FRP is resin. This seems to be the crux of
your question. There are several types of resins. The most commonly
used are polyester and epoxy. Polyester resin is very commonly used to
lay up new FRP parts (such as your existing sailboat). It makes a good
vehicle and binder for discrete, freestanding, and/or new FRP items.
It is a bad adhesive. Epoxy resin is as good or better than polyester
resin in most departments. It is vastly better as an adhesive (this is
the key for your application). The only potential problem (though it
can be used to good end) is that epoxy softens, and eventually
re-liquifies and reactivates given sufficient heat. I forget the exact
temp. - 165 degrees? 180 degrees? Not an issue for most applications.
So, for your situation, I would agree with those who recommend epoxy
resin, along with the proper fiberglass cloth. Many have tried this
same process with polyester resin - only to have it delaminate later
(sometimes most dramatically & inconveniently - even unsafely).
Backing up even further, I have to ask - why are you cladding an
existing hull in FRP? I'm no salvage expert, but from what I've seen &
heard, this is appropriate only in a very small number of cases.
Possibly you've done the research, and are well convinced that this is
the best approach. If not, I hereby raise a red flag. Well... whatever
you do, good luck.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Half this game is 90% mental" -- Danny Ozark (Phillies manager)
***************
It will help if we start by getting the terminology right. Fiberglass
is the woven (cloth), non-woven (mat), or chopped glass fiber
component of a composite called FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic).
This composite is sometimes called "fiberglass" for short - as in, "I
just bought a 19' fiberglass sailboat" - but that shorthand is not
precisely accurate. Glass fiber (fiberglass) is the most commonly used
fiber, but there are others such as Kevlar, etc. (don't worry about
them in your situation, they are for specific, advanced applications).
Another side-note: the other component of FRP composite in your
hypothetical new sailboat would be gelcoat. Gelcoat is the smooth,
paintlike, water-resistant, decorative surface of the boat. It
probably wouldn't be used in the application you're talking about.
The other main component of FRP is resin. This seems to be the crux of
your question. There are several types of resins. The most commonly
used are polyester and epoxy. Polyester resin is very commonly used to
lay up new FRP parts (such as your existing sailboat). It makes a good
vehicle and binder for discrete, freestanding, and/or new FRP items.
It is a bad adhesive. Epoxy resin is as good or better than polyester
resin in most departments. It is vastly better as an adhesive (this is
the key for your application). The only potential problem (though it
can be used to good end) is that epoxy softens, and eventually
re-liquifies and reactivates given sufficient heat. I forget the exact
temp. - 165 degrees? 180 degrees? Not an issue for most applications.
So, for your situation, I would agree with those who recommend epoxy
resin, along with the proper fiberglass cloth. Many have tried this
same process with polyester resin - only to have it delaminate later
(sometimes most dramatically & inconveniently - even unsafely).
Backing up even further, I have to ask - why are you cladding an
existing hull in FRP? I'm no salvage expert, but from what I've seen &
heard, this is appropriate only in a very small number of cases.
Possibly you've done the research, and are well convinced that this is
the best approach. If not, I hereby raise a red flag. Well... whatever
you do, good luck.
Cheers,
David Graybeal
Portland, OR
"Half this game is 90% mental" -- Danny Ozark (Phillies manager)
***************
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
> but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
> too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
> of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
> the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
> myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> timewise at the moment
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
wooden boat. At the very least I would ask to see a finished example
of their work, and even then would question the reasons for using
mat over wood. It will add stiffness (nor needed with a wood hull)
extra weight and no real strength while soaking up a lot of resin.)
Doesn't work with epoxy.
Lightweight cloth and epoxy is all you need over wood, unless the
wood is very thin or in poor condition.
Nels
>I would be very leery of anyone selling me fiberglas mat to cover a
> Hi All
>
> I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
> but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
> too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
> of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
> the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
> myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> timewise at the moment
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
>
wooden boat. At the very least I would ask to see a finished example
of their work, and even then would question the reasons for using
mat over wood. It will add stiffness (nor needed with a wood hull)
extra weight and no real strength while soaking up a lot of resin.)
Doesn't work with epoxy.
Lightweight cloth and epoxy is all you need over wood, unless the
wood is very thin or in poor condition.
Nels
Dear Andrew: You mentioned in your first message
that your dealer was planning to sell you fiberglas
mat, which nobody seems to have picked up on. Mat is
intended for use with polyester resins. It is bonded
together with styrenes which dissove in the polyester
but not in epoxies. The styrene remains in the
laminate as a kind of unwanted filler. As a result
most sources that I've seen suggest using a compatible
cloth with epoxy, most often about 6oz weight to
ensure good wetting out.
Good luck.
Eric
--- willers32 <mwagner@...> wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
that your dealer was planning to sell you fiberglas
mat, which nobody seems to have picked up on. Mat is
intended for use with polyester resins. It is bonded
together with styrenes which dissove in the polyester
but not in epoxies. The styrene remains in the
laminate as a kind of unwanted filler. As a result
most sources that I've seen suggest using a compatible
cloth with epoxy, most often about 6oz weight to
ensure good wetting out.
Good luck.
Eric
--- willers32 <mwagner@...> wrote:
> My understanding of the situation is this -___________________________________________________________
> polyester resin (standard
> fiberglassing resin) tends to be quite thick (high
> viscosity). This
> means that it doesn't penetrate into the fibers of
> the wood. Epoxy, on
> the other hand, is available in a low viscosity type
> that penetrates.
> The theory is that by penetrating deeply into the
> wood fibers before
> setting up, the epoxy/glass/wood combination forms a
> matrix bond which
> is virtually unbreakable.
>
> As for experience. I've built two boats with the
> epoxy/glass/plywood
> method. The first was a Micro that I built in 1995.
> I sailed it for
> eight years before selling it to build my AS-29. To
> my knowledge, the
> Micro is still afloat and has not had any
> delaminations. The AS-29 was
> launched last spring and has had no leaks or
> delaminations so far.
>
> On the other hand, I had a dingy that was built by
> someone else using
> the polyester/glass/wood method. The junk man just
> took it away as it
> had rotted rather severely. There were many places
> where the glass had
> delaminated from the wood.
>
> I would use epoxy. Be sure you buy a good quality,
> low viscosity
> epoxy. I like System Three, but there are several
> others out there
> that are probably as good or better.
>
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY
> <andyairey@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> > Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and
> resin
> > but have been told that fibreglass resins do not
> stick
> > too well to wood and that I should use epoxy
> instead
> > of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will
> sell me
> > the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> > cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do
> it
> > myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> > timewise at the moment
> > Cheers
> > Andy Airey
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>__________________________________________________
> > Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print
> service from just
> 8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming,
> respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed,
> thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts,
> and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209,
> Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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These days I would not consider using anything other than epoxy and
fiberglass over wood. Epoxy creates a very strong bond with wood
where polyester resin does not. The cost of each is about the same to
day as well. I have used many different brands of epoxy and most are
good. I prefer the non-blushing type and the best I have found in
that catagory is RAKA 350 NON BLUSHING hardener. For the most part
the epoxy resins are the same between brands but I have found a great
deal of variation on the hardeners. Just make sure you get a low
viscosity resin designed for wetting out fiberglass.
Chris Feller
fiberglass over wood. Epoxy creates a very strong bond with wood
where polyester resin does not. The cost of each is about the same to
day as well. I have used many different brands of epoxy and most are
good. I prefer the non-blushing type and the best I have found in
that catagory is RAKA 350 NON BLUSHING hardener. For the most part
the epoxy resins are the same between brands but I have found a great
deal of variation on the hardeners. Just make sure you get a low
viscosity resin designed for wetting out fiberglass.
Chris Feller
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
> but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
> too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
> of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
> the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
> myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> timewise at the moment
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just
8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>
I have been curious about this sailmaker in Phuket, and I bet that the
people there could use the work after the tsunami.
http://www.rollytasker.com/
people there could use the work after the tsunami.
http://www.rollytasker.com/
Also throw into the mix:
Gambell & Hunter Sailmakers
16 Limerock Street Camden, ME 04843
(207) 236-3561 or 207-785-4430
grantg@...
- Bill
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
lancefgunderson
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:37 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Sprit Sails - Sailmakers
Gambell & Hunter Sailmakers
16 Limerock Street Camden, ME 04843
(207) 236-3561 or 207-785-4430
grantg@...
- Bill
_____
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
lancefgunderson
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:37 AM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Re: Sprit Sails - Sailmakers
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "billybouy2" <billybouy2@...> wrote:
>
> I'm shopping for a sailmaker to make me an approx. 86 ft. sq. sprit-
> boomed spritsail (rig #25 in "100 Small Boat Rigs" and "103 Sail
> Rigs". Anyone care to recommend any sailmakers?
>
> Ciao for Niao,
>
> Bill in MN
>
Bohndell in Rockport, Maine made a sprit sail (tanbark) for a Bolger
Surf I built many years ago; it was an excellent sail and held up
well without a sail cover, which is a lot to ask of any dacron sail.
Ike Manchester made the sails for my Bolger Black Skimmer Tashtego;
they were fine while I owned her but I understand they deteriorated
quickly in the intense Florida sun after I sold her to Key Largo
Shoal Water Cruises. Ratsey & Lapthorn made the mainsail for my 1962
Rhodes Ranger sloop; it's still going strong! Bill Harding makes
sails for Edey & Duff, builders of the Dovekie and Shearwater. Anson
Sails in Greenland, N.H. keep my sails in good working order and seem
quite reasonable price-wise, but I'm not sure they know about sprit
sails. You might try Dynamite Payson in S. Thomaston, Maine in case
he has a sprit sail on hand from one of his projects; Bohndell made
most of Dynamite's sails.
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
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--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "billybouy2" <billybouy2@...> wrote:
Surf I built many years ago; it was an excellent sail and held up
well without a sail cover, which is a lot to ask of any dacron sail.
Ike Manchester made the sails for my Bolger Black Skimmer Tashtego;
they were fine while I owned her but I understand they deteriorated
quickly in the intense Florida sun after I sold her to Key Largo
Shoal Water Cruises. Ratsey & Lapthorn made the mainsail for my 1962
Rhodes Ranger sloop; it's still going strong! Bill Harding makes
sails for Edey & Duff, builders of the Dovekie and Shearwater. Anson
Sails in Greenland, N.H. keep my sails in good working order and seem
quite reasonable price-wise, but I'm not sure they know about sprit
sails. You might try Dynamite Payson in S. Thomaston, Maine in case
he has a sprit sail on hand from one of his projects; Bohndell made
most of Dynamite's sails.
>Bohndell in Rockport, Maine made a sprit sail (tanbark) for a Bolger
> I'm shopping for a sailmaker to make me an approx. 86 ft. sq. sprit-
> boomed spritsail (rig #25 in "100 Small Boat Rigs" and "103 Sail
> Rigs". Anyone care to recommend any sailmakers?
>
> Ciao for Niao,
>
> Bill in MN
>
Surf I built many years ago; it was an excellent sail and held up
well without a sail cover, which is a lot to ask of any dacron sail.
Ike Manchester made the sails for my Bolger Black Skimmer Tashtego;
they were fine while I owned her but I understand they deteriorated
quickly in the intense Florida sun after I sold her to Key Largo
Shoal Water Cruises. Ratsey & Lapthorn made the mainsail for my 1962
Rhodes Ranger sloop; it's still going strong! Bill Harding makes
sails for Edey & Duff, builders of the Dovekie and Shearwater. Anson
Sails in Greenland, N.H. keep my sails in good working order and seem
quite reasonable price-wise, but I'm not sure they know about sprit
sails. You might try Dynamite Payson in S. Thomaston, Maine in case
he has a sprit sail on hand from one of his projects; Bohndell made
most of Dynamite's sails.
My understanding of the situation is this - polyester resin (standard
fiberglassing resin) tends to be quite thick (high viscosity). This
means that it doesn't penetrate into the fibers of the wood. Epoxy, on
the other hand, is available in a low viscosity type that penetrates.
The theory is that by penetrating deeply into the wood fibers before
setting up, the epoxy/glass/wood combination forms a matrix bond which
is virtually unbreakable.
As for experience. I've built two boats with the epoxy/glass/plywood
method. The first was a Micro that I built in 1995. I sailed it for
eight years before selling it to build my AS-29. To my knowledge, the
Micro is still afloat and has not had any delaminations. The AS-29 was
launched last spring and has had no leaks or delaminations so far.
On the other hand, I had a dingy that was built by someone else using
the polyester/glass/wood method. The junk man just took it away as it
had rotted rather severely. There were many places where the glass had
delaminated from the wood.
I would use epoxy. Be sure you buy a good quality, low viscosity
epoxy. I like System Three, but there are several others out there
that are probably as good or better.
fiberglassing resin) tends to be quite thick (high viscosity). This
means that it doesn't penetrate into the fibers of the wood. Epoxy, on
the other hand, is available in a low viscosity type that penetrates.
The theory is that by penetrating deeply into the wood fibers before
setting up, the epoxy/glass/wood combination forms a matrix bond which
is virtually unbreakable.
As for experience. I've built two boats with the epoxy/glass/plywood
method. The first was a Micro that I built in 1995. I sailed it for
eight years before selling it to build my AS-29. To my knowledge, the
Micro is still afloat and has not had any delaminations. The AS-29 was
launched last spring and has had no leaks or delaminations so far.
On the other hand, I had a dingy that was built by someone else using
the polyester/glass/wood method. The junk man just took it away as it
had rotted rather severely. There were many places where the glass had
delaminated from the wood.
I would use epoxy. Be sure you buy a good quality, low viscosity
epoxy. I like System Three, but there are several others out there
that are probably as good or better.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
> Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
> but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
> too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
> of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
> the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
> cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
> myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
> timewise at the moment
> Cheers
> Andy Airey
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just
8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
>
Hi All
I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
timewise at the moment
Cheers
Andy Airey
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
I'm about to arrange to have a sailboat hull(not
Bolger unfortunately)clad with fibreglass and resin
but have been told that fibreglass resins do not stick
too well to wood and that I should use epoxy instead
of resin.Any comments please.The firm who will sell me
the fibreglass mat are also prepared to do the
cladding whereas if I use epoxy I will have to do it
myself.Good experience but a little inconvenient
timewise at the moment
Cheers
Andy Airey
___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photohttp://uk.photos.yahoo.com
I have a sail similar to this for my Sea Bright skiff. It was made by an
awning maker in coastal NJ. I may still have the sketch from which it was
made. If I get time this weekend I will see if I can find the info.
CCW
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
billybouy2
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:36 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Sprit Sails - Sailmakers
I'm shopping for a sailmaker to make me an approx. 86 ft. sq. sprit-
boomed spritsail (rig #25 in "100 Small Boat Rigs" and "103 Sail
Rigs". Anyone care to recommend any sailmakers?
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
(978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
- Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
awning maker in coastal NJ. I may still have the sketch from which it was
made. If I get time this weekend I will see if I can find the info.
CCW
-----Original Message-----
From:bolger@yahoogroups.com[mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
billybouy2
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:36 PM
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [bolger] Sprit Sails - Sailmakers
I'm shopping for a sailmaker to make me an approx. 86 ft. sq. sprit-
boomed spritsail (rig #25 in "100 Small Boat Rigs" and "103 Sail
Rigs". Anyone care to recommend any sailmakers?
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
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I'm shopping for a sailmaker to make me an approx. 86 ft. sq. sprit-
boomed spritsail (rig #25 in "100 Small Boat Rigs" and "103 Sail
Rigs". Anyone care to recommend any sailmakers?
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN
boomed spritsail (rig #25 in "100 Small Boat Rigs" and "103 Sail
Rigs". Anyone care to recommend any sailmakers?
Ciao for Niao,
Bill in MN