Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
Mike,
PCB frequently leaves details up to the builder, and I'm not sure how you have the sheet rigged now.
A traditional approach is to install a rack with a pin or hook on the inboard side of either gunwale. The sheet is hooked around the pin and the pin takes the strain of the sheet. It is, of course, necessary to move the sheet to the opposite pin on each tack. The location of the pin fore and aft has some impact on sail performance, so some experimentation is needed.
Another approach is to mount a block on the rudder head. Run the sheet through the block and wind it a turn or two around the tiller (you want a spiral effect). Hold the sheet with the hand you are steering with--squeezing the sheet against the tiller. Friction between the sheet and the tiller takes the strain, but the sheet can be released instantly by relaxing your hand. NOTE: Sheeting to the rudder head can exert an upward force on the rudder; perhaps enough to unship it. This is a really bad thing when you are under sail. The solution is to make or buy a metal clip which will keep the pintle from rising.
If you really want to get complicated, check out local one design sailboats (Lightnings are about the most Rube Goldberg arangements, but they work) and copy what you think might work for you.
With a fairly small sail, I would try to keep it simple first.
John T
PCB frequently leaves details up to the builder, and I'm not sure how you have the sheet rigged now.
A traditional approach is to install a rack with a pin or hook on the inboard side of either gunwale. The sheet is hooked around the pin and the pin takes the strain of the sheet. It is, of course, necessary to move the sheet to the opposite pin on each tack. The location of the pin fore and aft has some impact on sail performance, so some experimentation is needed.
Another approach is to mount a block on the rudder head. Run the sheet through the block and wind it a turn or two around the tiller (you want a spiral effect). Hold the sheet with the hand you are steering with--squeezing the sheet against the tiller. Friction between the sheet and the tiller takes the strain, but the sheet can be released instantly by relaxing your hand. NOTE: Sheeting to the rudder head can exert an upward force on the rudder; perhaps enough to unship it. This is a really bad thing when you are under sail. The solution is to make or buy a metal clip which will keep the pintle from rising.
If you really want to get complicated, check out local one design sailboats (Lightnings are about the most Rube Goldberg arangements, but they work) and copy what you think might work for you.
With a fairly small sail, I would try to keep it simple first.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: skiffsalor2000
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 8:41 AM
Subject: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
Sailors,
I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.
Mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>
> I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either
doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth
fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
think I'd try PCB's way first.
>
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric OHiggins
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
>
>
>
> As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
> cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
> thots.
> The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
> on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
> or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
> I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
> instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
> sprit one on each side of the sail.
> The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
> you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
> structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
> snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
> should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
> leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
> sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
> I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
> and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
> Eric
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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Bolger rules!!!
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Sailors,
I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.
Mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
think I'd try PCB's way first.
------
------
------
I agree with John and built PCB Gypsy to plan including the sail plan.
The boat has been in storage for a couple of years but I am ready now to
get back into it. My question - what is a simple approach to improving
the sheet? Hanging on to that line - there has to be a good simple way
to rig the sheet so that it can be quickly released saving disaster. I
bought a couple of simple blocks but not real sure what to do with them.
Mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth
> I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either
fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any
difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest
that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix.
Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the
designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the
shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own
boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I
think I'd try PCB's way first.
>dead horses
> John T
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric OHiggins
> To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
>
>
>
> As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
> cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
> thots.
> The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
> on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
> or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
> I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
> instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
> sprit one on each side of the sail.
> The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
> you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
> structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
> snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
> should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
> leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
> sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
> I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
> and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
> Eric
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip awayFax: (978) 282-1349
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930,
> - Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com------------------------------------------------------------------------\
> - Open discussion:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS Boating safety Boating magazine Alaska outdoors
> Great outdoors
>
>
>
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>3/31/2006
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.3.4/299 - Release Date:
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Tech dinghy racers on the Charles River very often have no money but
care a lot about 1/100th of a knot. Given my abilities, I needed at
least 1/10 knot. Saw a lot of transoms racing with that crowd.
If you plotted the courses of those who crossed the line just after
the signal, it would look like a diagram of how to knit a sweater.
care a lot about 1/100th of a knot. Given my abilities, I needed at
least 1/10 knot. Saw a lot of transoms racing with that crowd.
If you plotted the courses of those who crossed the line just after
the signal, it would look like a diagram of how to knit a sweater.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Lenihan" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
snip
> Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
> really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
> a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
snip
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and
couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and
the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and,
if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a
boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm
right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution
are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to
have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try
PCB's way first.
I'll second that(!) and add that on my ex-Micro,LESTAT, I can't
recall ever noticing a deficiency on one tack or the other over
several years of sailing in all sorts of weather but made a point of
keeping the mizzen sprit-boom rigged on the opposite side,relative
to the main sprit-boom...just is case there was a difference :-)
Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
Considering that most of us are limited in the number of hours worth
of leisure time we have to burn,it would appear better to introduce
devices which will actually keep us "out there" longer.....as in the
cell phone call to our spouse,"Hi honey,it looks like I'm gonna be a
bit late coming home since the wind is slowly dying and is coming
over the "wrong" side of the sprit-boom.....again.....love ya,bye!"
Beyond that,most of us have as our destination,when we head out for
a sail,the very same point of departure! Why rush to get back
there,unless your really do not like spending time on the water! :-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,looking forward to the day when I can call work and
say,"Hi boss,can't come in today,there is hardly any wind,not a
cloud in the sky,lots-o-beer left in the cooler,girlfriend gettin'
frisky and the darn motor won't shut itself off!"...from along the
shores of the rainy St.Lawrence...............
<jtrussell2@...> wrote:
>either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it
> I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which
isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and
couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and
the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and,
if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a
boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm
right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution
are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to
have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try
PCB's way first.
I'll second that(!) and add that on my ex-Micro,LESTAT, I can't
recall ever noticing a deficiency on one tack or the other over
several years of sailing in all sorts of weather but made a point of
keeping the mizzen sprit-boom rigged on the opposite side,relative
to the main sprit-boom...just is case there was a difference :-)
Besides,only multi-millionaire-winning-is-EVERYTHING-die-hard-racers
really ever care about the 1/100th of a knot difference such-n-such
a gadget may or may not provide when out sailing/racing.
Considering that most of us are limited in the number of hours worth
of leisure time we have to burn,it would appear better to introduce
devices which will actually keep us "out there" longer.....as in the
cell phone call to our spouse,"Hi honey,it looks like I'm gonna be a
bit late coming home since the wind is slowly dying and is coming
over the "wrong" side of the sprit-boom.....again.....love ya,bye!"
Beyond that,most of us have as our destination,when we head out for
a sail,the very same point of departure! Why rush to get back
there,unless your really do not like spending time on the water! :-D
Sincerely,
Peter Lenihan,looking forward to the day when I can call work and
say,"Hi boss,can't come in today,there is hardly any wind,not a
cloud in the sky,lots-o-beer left in the cooler,girlfriend gettin'
frisky and the darn motor won't shut itself off!"...from along the
shores of the rainy St.Lawrence...............
A straight sprit can be about 1/2 the diameter and weight of a curved sprit. Since most of the load is compression. The curved boom on Wolftrap weighed 16 lbs was 21/2 dia. and the straight sprit was about 1 3/4 in. in diameter it was 1/16 thick and weighed 7 lb. The main was 425 sq Ft. There was a 16 ft top yard that stuck 10 ft above the top of the mast it only weighed 6 lbs. The loads are pretty light on the spars other than the mast on a sprit rig. I find it amazing and I had no idea that the bow weighs 80 lbs on a Nonsuch. That's 40 pounds per side and that is almost 3 times the weight of the curved sprit on Wolftrap. Seems like huge overkill to me.
Doug
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: John and Kathy Trussell
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try PCB's way first.
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric OHiggins
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
thots.
The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
sprit one on each side of the sail.
The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
Eric
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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I really think that you are trying to correct a problem which either doesn't exist or, if it does, is so insignificant that it isn't worth fooling with. I owned a Dovekie for several years and couldn't tell any difference between the "good" tack and the "bad"tack. I would suggest that you try it as PCB drew it and, if it bothers you, implement a fix. Periodically when I build a boat I figure that I'm smarter than the designer. Sometimes I'm right, but not often. And sometimes the shortcomings of my solution are major :<) Still, we who build our own boats are entitled to have things the way we like them. Nonetheless, I think I'd try PCB's way first.
John T
John T
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric OHiggins
To:bolger@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Sprits, Wishbones and Dovkies
As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
thots.
The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
sprit one on each side of the sail.
The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
Eric
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Bolger rules!!!
- NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
- no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
- stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
- Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
- Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
- Unsubscribe:bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A wishbone that mimics a symmetrical airfoil ie a fully rounded
leading edge need not be particularly strong. The snotter attaches to
the inside of the curve at the centre and leads back to a block on the
leading edge of the mast, thence down to a deck block and to a cleat.
The wishbone loads are mostly compression.
The snotter also functions as an outhaul and a cunningham, driving the
wishbone aft and down to flatten the sail and tighten the leach and
foot simultaneously. A 420 sq. ft. Nonsuch sail could be adjusted
without a winch by simply luffing. Its wishbone was 25 feet long of
2.5-3 inch dia. aluminum and probably weighed close to 80 lbs. it hung
from 2 fixed length wire pennnants attached to each side of the mast.
Mike
leading edge need not be particularly strong. The snotter attaches to
the inside of the curve at the centre and leads back to a block on the
leading edge of the mast, thence down to a deck block and to a cleat.
The wishbone loads are mostly compression.
The snotter also functions as an outhaul and a cunningham, driving the
wishbone aft and down to flatten the sail and tighten the leach and
foot simultaneously. A 420 sq. ft. Nonsuch sail could be adjusted
without a winch by simply luffing. Its wishbone was 25 feet long of
2.5-3 inch dia. aluminum and probably weighed close to 80 lbs. it hung
from 2 fixed length wire pennnants attached to each side of the mast.
Mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, Eric OHiggins <chaemeocyparis@...> wrote:
>
>
> As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
> cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
> thots.
> The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
> on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
> or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
> I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
> instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
> sprit one on each side of the sail.
> The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
> you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
> structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
> snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
> should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
> leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
> sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
> I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
> and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
> Eric
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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As usual, watching this space has caused my brain
cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
thots.
The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
sprit one on each side of the sail.
The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
Eric
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cells to break hibernation. Thanks to all for the
thots.
The brainwave here concerns wishbones -- specifically
on the Bolger Solent rig which doesn't have any lacing
or masthoops or anything else to clutter up the mast.
I am filing away the idea of rigging two snotters
instead of one, each snotter rigged to the end of a
sprit one on each side of the sail.
The wishbone becomes a very lightly loaded spacer, if
you see what I mean, and there's no need of heavy
structure to withstand wishbone style loads. The
snotter would have to be tacked, of course, but there
should be a marked improvement in sail shape and the
leeward sprit should be held up out of the way of the
sail by the 'spacer' and leeward snotter.
I'll start out with a simple single sprit per plans
and see how badly that ugly sail shape bothers me.
Eric
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
A Dovekie is cool, but a Shearwater is a rare thing! With only just a
few ever built. This is a broken record, of course, but I (we) would
love to see photos.
few ever built. This is a broken record, of course, but I (we) would
love to see photos.
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
Nonsuch mast was 45 ft but keel stepped. The ability to reach up into
stronger truer wind pressure is a big advantage that a taller mast
brings, especially in light air.
Mike
>The Shearwater mast was probably 25 ft long deck stepped, and the
> --- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike French" <frenchwheatley@>
> wrote:
> The 2X taller luff with full wishbone
> > generated a really efficient shape, and she left the Shearwater for
> > dead on all points and in any windstrength.
> >
> > Mike
>
> What were the mast heights of the two boats?
>
> Nels
>
Nonsuch mast was 45 ft but keel stepped. The ability to reach up into
stronger truer wind pressure is a big advantage that a taller mast
brings, especially in light air.
Mike
--- Inbolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mike French" <frenchwheatley@...>
wrote:
The 2X taller luff with full wishbone
Nels
wrote:
The 2X taller luff with full wishbone
> generated a really efficient shape, and she left the Shearwater forWhat were the mast heights of the two boats?
> dead on all points and in any windstrength.
>
> Mike
Nels
I have been fortunate to own a Dovkie, as well as her bigger sister
Shearwater and a Nonsuch 26 catboat with a wishbone. The performances
of the first two were so sedate, to windward or otherwise that the
aerodynamic inadequacies of a straight sprit held sail on one tack vs.
the other were not obvious.
The Nonsuch had a loaded displacement 3X and sail area 2.5X times the
Shearwater on the same LWL. The 2X taller luff with full wishbone
generated a really efficient shape, and she left the Shearwater for
dead on all points and in any windstrength.
Mike
Shearwater and a Nonsuch 26 catboat with a wishbone. The performances
of the first two were so sedate, to windward or otherwise that the
aerodynamic inadequacies of a straight sprit held sail on one tack vs.
the other were not obvious.
The Nonsuch had a loaded displacement 3X and sail area 2.5X times the
Shearwater on the same LWL. The 2X taller luff with full wishbone
generated a really efficient shape, and she left the Shearwater for
dead on all points and in any windstrength.
Mike